Where Emotional Intelligence meets Artificial Intelligence | Penny Zenker

Well, okay, AI is going to do all of these things. What can I do with it? What can make my life better? How can I be more creative? That's where the reset mindset comes in, is that we embrace change, and it's changing. We can either change with it and jump, or we can resist it. Anything that we do or any way that we use AI, it's. It's whatever we put into it is what we're going to get out of it. I just did a report actually on that is how do we use AI to be more human and to actually use it to connect deeper? My research shows that it. It is possible and it is happening. The question is, how do you use it? How do we all use it responsibly? How do you use it to advance yourself? How do you use it to develop your creative skills?

Guys. And welcome my good friend, Penny Zinker. Penny, what's going on?

Hey, it's great to be here.

That's right. Hey, look, there's a lot of energy, which is great. You know what's funny? As I've been kind of learning more about you and everything you've been working on, you're seem to be one of the ones that's actually leaning in at a very diligent level to the AI conversation, which I think is probably nothing more valuable than that right now. But I know one of the things I keep hearing on one side, and I say the side, just because you have different friends with their own different approaches and opinions, is that AI is becoming. Is making us less human. And some of us, others would say, well, it's actually helping us with integration. So I'm really kind of curious on your thoughts with everything you're working with AI.

Well, sure. I mean, both of those sides are true, and it depends on how we use it, right? Is it making us less human? Maybe in the context of we're not thinking for ourselves as much and letting AI do the thinking for us in some cases. But I believe that we can use AI to make us even more human. So anything that we do or any way that we use AI, it's whatever we put into it is what we're going to get out of it. So it's the intention that we come in with. So I just did a report actually on that is how do we use AI to be more human and to actually use it to connect deeper. And my research shows that it is possible and it is happening.

What are you seeing as being the. Maybe the differentiator between, you know, because they're again, one, one take. I, I use AI daily. Like it's, I, it's funny, I was telling a friend of mine, like I went through a Matt Mer massive personal transformation about a year ago and he's like, dude, you made that through. You made that through that episode like lightning quick, you know, kind of. I said, well, you know, here are the core practices I did. You know, I did grounding, I did a journal practice, I did some really holistic stuff. I said, but be honest, I had, I used my AI, who I've nicknamed Tama Tom. And I just would chit chat and I would say, hey man, what are the questions I'm not asking myself right now that I should be asking myself, what are the, what are the, what are the patterns that you're witnessing that I'm not witnessing and things of that nature. So talk to me a little about kind of what you're seeing in the research and kind of how that's shaping up for you.

Yeah, well, so just in that kind of context, what do you, what are you asking it? So let's say right now there's a huge issue in the workplace with engagement, right? People are skeptical and that's why they're skeptical about AI. Is it going to take my job and you know, am I not going to get to do the type of work that I want to do and so forth. And people are seeing that as AI is implemented, they're able to ask these types of questions to help support them through some of the challenges that they have in their work. So for instance, using AI to.

Engage in difficult conversations. So let's role play with AI ahead of time, let it know this is the type of person I'm dealing with. This is the issue that I'm dealing with. What are things I should avoid? What are things that I should say? And so these are typically, I forget the exact statistic, but somewhere around 65% of leaders avoid having these difficult conversations because they're difficult. Right. We don't know how people are going to react.

And there's this resource there for us to just take a few minutes before a conversation so that we can role play it out. And the reason that that actually works is that it's not AI telling us what to say that would maybe feel ingenuine when you get to the other person and you regurgitate whatever AI told you to say. The point is you're going there to role play. You're going there to better understand how you show up and what you say. And how that might respond, the other person might respond as a result of what you're saying. So same thing that we do with sales, salespeople, they do that all the time. They do these role playings. They may not have done it in the past with AI, but they do it with each other. And then that helps them to better communicate to a prospect or a customer what they need to know about the product, how to handle their particular problem. And it's the same thing. That's just one example of how we can use AI to actually deepen our connections. Because then you approach that challenging situation and that person feels like you, you understand them, you've entered in with greater empathy and understanding because that's what you used AI to help you to, to bring across.

Yeah, that's so good. I was also thinking in terms of, you know, when you're having a dialogue, you're having a suggestive dialogue back and forth with an AI tool. I'm a big believer in just setting the parameters. And because I believe in truth more than anything else, the parameters are always, it's okay to let me know what I'm not seeing, where my bias is kicking in, where are my own patterns or you know, call them childhood wounds or like, you know, because we always bring our, ourselves to work every day. Right. Where are the areas that I can see in order to set up those conversations? I remember when I was building my first company.

Became a good sized company that I exited a few years ago. One of the things I trained leaders to do after having so many failed attempts at having quality conversations in difficult circumstances like you're talking about, of course, correction, a termination. I went, I went through a couple of seasons where business slumped, born up where we had to make layoffs and you know, these types of things. And those things are never comfortable. They're not supposed to be comfortable, they're supposed to be difficult, you know, and they will cause you to grow. But one of the things we used to do is I would sit people down and say, hey, you know, we used to use the disc and values and attributes tools on a regular basis. Like why don't you go review their disc and go review their values and their attributes and actually come up with a bit of a, what is the best possible way to open up the dialogue? And I would say that, you know, I would tell them all the time. So, you know, statements, close hearts, but questions open them. Right. So, you know, one of the things I've realized about the, the AI tools is you can literally create the prompt that actually helps you get the balance you're really looking for. But so much of creating that prompt is being aware enough to give the AI, you know, I guess, insight into, hey, look, I'm looking for a balanced approach here. I'm not looking to have confirmation bias. And at least for my tool, that's what I've told it. I said, this is your master prompt. One of the things that I hope to co create with you on a regular basis is truth. Which means that it's okay to tell me where I'm not being my best self or there's an opportunity for me to grow, and because of that, it's created some really good growth tools.

Absolutely. You could be saying, here's what I'm seeing in the behavior of this person. What am I not seeing? Here's how I'm interpreting this. What are some other options of. Of what might be going on for this person that I should be aware of? So, absolutely. To challenge our. Our limiting beliefs and our biases and how we might typically approach a situation because of our personality type that, you know, like, I may be somebody who's a little bit more like, get it done.

Yeah.

And I might be talking to somebody who's more of the, you know, the. The feeler, the person who needs to really be met where they are before going anywhere else. And knowing that ahead of time helps you to start that conversation in a completely different way. That feels. That's still authentic, but at the same time, it feels more personal to that person.

Yeah.

Because you're. You're leaning into what's important to them.

Yeah. How does. How does.

How does your research currently showcase dealing with. With overwhelm and burnout and kind of the emotional triggers that humans do, you know, get wrapped up? And I was. I was talking to my COO today, and I was like, you know what? I'm. Be honest with you. I've got. I've been traveling so much, my kitchen's half torn apart. Like, I'm. I'm not. I know I'm not showing up as my best self right now. You know, can I have some grace here? And of course, she was kind enough to do that. But, you know, so I'm. I'm coming into these meetings with a little bit of overwhelm or a little bit of extra, you know, carry energy, as I like to call it. Like, you carry a little extra energy. What are you seeing this working in kind of your research and what's like, where are we headed?

Well, so a year ago, I Wrote a book called the Reset Mindset. And that is the practice of resetting is something that helps us to reduce the intensity, to help us to stop stress from compounding so that we're getting some perspective and some insight on the situation. Even if it's emotional, right? We get, like you said, we're emotional beings, our first reaction is always going to be emotional when it comes to something changing, blowing up, you know, and, you know, burnout itself, and I've seen this in a number of different places, burnout itself isn't really just from workload. It's it's from a lack of recovery. There are plenty of people who have an incredible workload that don't fall into a burnout situation. And that's because they know how to rest and recover. Our nervous system, it only needs about 60 to 90 seconds to reset our nervous system. So building in these reset moments into our workflows, whether it's at work or whether it's at home, can make a huge difference to reduce and stop that stress from compounding. Right? I mean, think about it. If you haven't had a night's sleep, right, you're triggered so much faster, right? To jump at somebody. And so it's the same type of thing with that kind of stress all day long. So taking those short reset moments to do some deep breathing and to actually release it from your body and also your mind will help you to be able to handle whatever comes your way in a much more.

Calm and, you know, perspective. You'll be able to have more perspective to come up with better decisions in that place. And that's all it takes is real quick, before you comment on that, there's actually a study that was done with synchrony. It's a call center. And what they did was they embedded these 60 second reset. The what would happen is as a new call, typically a call would come in, they deal with the call and then the next call would come in one right after the other, right? And you know how it is when you're at a call center, people aren't calling, oh, you did this great job, we love you. Right? It's really high intense type of position where you're fielding people's complaints all the time and that energy gets transferred to you. So they gave them these 60 seconds. It would come up onto the screen and it would do a guided meditation and just help them to breathe through it for 60 seconds before the next call would be loaded. And the results that they have received and they continue to do it is Incredible. So they've seen a huge boost in productivity. They're able to resolve these problems and issues for customers faster. And generally it's creating a greater level of satisfaction within the call center team. So it absolutely works. It's just a matter of really creating space for it because we block out all the space from meeting to meeting.

To meeting to meeting.

Yeah, we. We're waiting in line, we're doing something. So we need to give ourselves permission to take those reset moments.

You know, it seems awesome. It's the debate, even based on what you just said in my experiences would validate that, by the way. But I was my most difficult as a bench entrepreneur, leader, business guy, the whole deal. When I had the inability to go and get regulated and grounded on a consistent basis, my, you know, I was at a heightened state solving problems left. Right. It was coming. Coming this direction with problems, you know, and it took. It only took me 20 years to figure it out. 20 years to actually start my own practices, you know, but I even. Even today I have to catch myself out. Like, so much of, like, even doing the reset is. Is just catching yourself out in the moment, you know, with that in mind, because in. And this. It's funny, this all ties together in the form of integration. We're, you know, we've got the AI concept of integration was the. The back and forth discussion. We've got self integration, this grounded piece. We got relational integration. And, you know, for me, I make great. I make much better decisions. I'm gonna say great decisions, but much better decisions if I am grounded, if I am regulated, if I'm not reacting, you know, but again, like, the first step for me in the process was just like, oh, hey, dude, you're heightened and you, like, what types of things do you use in your. In your world to kind of get to the. Starting the reset process?

Well, you know, I call them reset moments. They have to. Whatever we do, whatever we triggers us to remember it's time to do it. Recognizing those cues.

Is it has to be sticky and available in the moment. Right? So a lot of people might use a mantra that. That might help them to stay focused on what matters. Uh, you know, lately, what's been coming up for me and my breathing exercises when I've been getting stressed is what's coming up for me is none of this matters. Right? Getting upset over things that don't really matter, like, just focus on doing your part and have patience and, you know, everything will. Will move forward. So that helps me. Everybody has maybe somebody's from scripture, but recognizing the cue that, that.

You'Re stressed, you're not able to focus, you bark at somebody, whatever the cue is that you're recognizing that you're at that heightened emotional state. That's when you take a reset moment. It's when you recognize that you're not being yourself. And what I say is, the more reset moments you take, and I've seen this in practice, the more you recognize them and take more of them, and you recognize the benefit. So in the beginning, you start to recognize what happened after it happened. And so, you know, I shouldn't have said it like that. That wasn't. That wasn't good. And you go back and maybe correct the situation by apologizing or, you know, correcting with the person. And then as you go forward and you keep practicing taking these reset moments, you're going to recognize that as it comes out of your mouth. Hey, sorry, I didn't mean to say it like that. What I mean is X. Right? And then as you continue to practice it, you're going to recognize it while it's the bubble in your head, and you're going to say, that's not productive. That's not what I want to say. That's emotional me. Let's just take a deep breath right here. And what is it that we want to accomplish out of this conversation? It's not about being right, it's about getting it right. All of that can happen in a split second in your head to redirect your comments to something that's more productive. And so that. That's the nature of taking these timeouts or these reset moments, these purposeful pauses so that you can redirect on what really matters.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, you also use the term rhythm. There's a rhythm to it. There's a rhythm to this reset. As far as becoming aware of it, taking action in the moment. I'll tell you one of the things that I'm just gonna be transparent with you in the audience. That used to. That was really hard for me when I started really trying to throw myself into this concept because I wanted. I've always wanted to be the best leader I can be and be the best business person I can be. But more importantly, just be the best human I can be. Be genuine, be authentic, be giving, be loyal, you know, but then I would swing the other side of the pendulum and people would. I would get into people pleasing and being taken advantage of and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, so much of finding equilibrium has come down to some of the work that you're talking about on a consistent basis for me. So I know it works, and I think that each high performer should be leaning into that work specifically. But the first thing that began happening to me when I was doing this work is I was very resistant to it, and I couldn't articulate why. Like, consciously I wanted to do it consciously. I said I was gonna do it, and then the moment I was gonna do it, you know, I was just, oh, well, I'll do it. I'll do it an hour from now. I'll do it in 30 minutes from now, or whatever.

I don't have the time or whatever. The excuses come up that we make. Sure.

Yeah. I mean, what do you think. What do you think drives that resistance? Because I feel like that's an important part of really getting to the reset moments that ultimately benefit you in the process.

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, what's in that resistance? And I. I think it's the. I don't know that there's an easy answer to that, because each one of us has our own resistance points. Right. Why does somebody resist and not go to the gym or not take the time? I. I think it's a.

You know, it's. It's a. It's a level of stress that we're in that we feel like that. No, it's better if we just keep going.

That.

That It's. It's. It's the reactive sense of things. It's the fight or flight that we're in.

Yeah.

That prevents us from actually, you know, seeing the, you know, the forest through the trees kind of thing. So. So it's. It's in those moments that's exactly when. When you fight it that you have to do it.

You know, it's football season, right? So in. In football, they have three timeouts each half. And, you know, if we just thought about our days like that, that we have three timeouts for each half of the day, and when would best serve us? What I say is when we have. When we plan them ahead of time, they're gonna. They're in our calendar. Like, if we write it in our calendar and we plan it and we make sure that our meetings aren't 60 minutes long, they're 45. So that we have. We create that space for ourselves ahead of time, we plan for it, then it's more likely to happen.

Yeah.

And it's when you don't plan for it, and then you try to fit it in. And say, oh, I'm feeling this way, I should fit it in right now. And then your other side of your brain is going, no, no, no, you don't have the time. You, you know, like you said, the people pleasing, like they're expecting you and you don't want to show up late and whatever it is. And you don't even take the 60 seconds. People don't even go to the bathroom when they have to go to the bathroom because they have a next meeting and they don't want to be late and so forth. So I think it's overriding that program takes time. And that's why I said in the beginning, you recognize it after. And it's a process of awareness. And the more we become what I call professional noticers. That's our job.

Yeah.

That's all we need to do, especially as leaders.

Become a professional noticer so that you are noticing other people's reactions, you're noticing what is happening in the marketplace because you're looking not just in your own industry, but in other industries to see what's changing and what's happening. You know, where can you add that noticing so that you can bring it to the table. Right. And that opens up your perspective of how you want to move forward. I mean, for me, this has been huge in my life. And, and like you said, I have to remind myself all the time. I mean, I've been what I call resetting since I was 19 and my father had passed in an accident. Right. And that's when I started this practice more as a resiliency type of thing. But then I saw it everywhere, like, what if as someone speaking to me, instead of responding quickly, I take those reset moments that I've been doing and I just breathe into it.

Take a deep breath before I speak, and then see what comes to me, what makes sense, what's right. And just that 60 second pause before I speak or react makes a huge difference. And so I think it's just a matter of practice. Like anything, like any muscle doesn't happen by going to the gym once. It happens consistently over time. Working that muscle.

Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. I was also thinking too. You know, a lot of times I try to use my own journey when talking to the audience and stuff like that to make sure that, you know, they, they know I'm not out here sharing methodologies and things that aren't effective. Right. Yeah. And, you know, so I try to use personal examples and, and many of the personal examples that are coming up for me Right now are going from a place of being very resistant to the process to having the. Almost like the process interrupt my life, to almost force me to do it at one. One point or another. Then begin to begin the practice, start having the settling of my soul or my resonance or whatever to call it for a brief moment, which then led me to now chasing it. Like yesterday, for example, I was dealing with, you know, it's the end of the year, it's time for tax season. All the good things, right? Give away. I would give away everything I've worked really hard for, you know, just, you know, try to sit with that and write the emotional side of that. And I remember, I remember sitting. I was literally sitting right over here to my left. And I was like, I'm gonna go take some time for myself. And I went up and like my grandfather to tell me back in the days, like, go be still. So no, no, no TVs, no telephone, everything's in a different room. And I went and just sat by myself for about 40, 40 minutes in a very relaxed state, in a very calming nature. I think I started off with a couple of mantras here that, like to kind of get started off with that. And then I just breathed in, I was holding it, let it go out slowly. And then I was beginning to try to notice the, the, the little oscillating fan that was in the room. And lo and behold, I got up like from that 40 minutes. And I think I was probably more recharged in that 40 minutes than I would have been if I'd have tried to barrel through the day, have more caffeine, maybe accidentally blow up at somebody by accident, not wanting to. And that's, you know, these types of things. And you know, with, with, with what you're sharing. I really hope the audience fully appreciates how important this practice is. And it's faith agnostic. You can be a person of faith and it worked for you could be a person who's doesn't share the faith. And it still works for you because it's, it's nervous system, it's the vagus nerve. It's like trying to get all this stuff calmed down, you know, and you know, which had me thinking. It also increases focus, you know, And I know one of the things that you talk a lot about is the impact priority matrix. And like, how does this work combined with the other work that you're doing help eliminate distractions so we can always be, we can all be more productive, therefore, giving ourselves more time and space. That's the stuff we really want to do.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's the beauty of a reset practice. Right. And by the way, before I answer that question, what happens in a reset moment is three simple steps are intuitive as part of this reset practice. And it can come in lots of different shapes and forms, but it's to step back, get perspective and realign.

Yeah.

So you can see how that brings us back to the element of focus and how we focus on what matters most is because as we're moving forward, step back away from the emotion, away that we've always done things to reflect and see. Where are we now? Take inventory what's working, what's not working, and then get some perspective and then realign on what matters most and what moves the needle. And so coming to that matrix is I don't use the Eisenhower matrix, which a lot of people use, which is urgency and importance, because I think that they're the wrong measures. And so, you know, we're already starting out with the wrong measures if we're using that as our axes. The reset mindset is very value based. What's going to create the highest and best value?

Yeah.

And for ourselves and for those involved. And so it's value and it's effort because really we don't want to, you know, a lot of people like, oh, you know, we want to do more with less. No, we don't, we don't want to do more. We want to achieve more with less. And I think that tiny little difference is important to recognize. Right. So, you know, we can achieve more by delivering more value in with less effort and less time.

Yeah.

So, so that's the quadrant matrix is, is being able to see what is the highest priority are the things that are the highest value and have the least amount of effort. Right. Those are our quick wins and we should make those our priorities.

Yeah.

And, and so if you looked at the matrix, right. That's the priority aspect. And then, then you have the other ones where you have a high effort and you have high value. Well, those things are where you want to spend a little bit more time reflecting and challenging the process is how do I optimize that? Right. Prioritize and optimize.

Yeah.

How can I make those things low effort? How can I.

Look at the process in a completely different way and still get the same result, but do it in a different way so that it is less effort? And that might be automating, eliminating. This might be where AI comes in so that we can do what's mostly human, what we do, right? And let. And let the automation work for us so that we have more space and time to be creative, to come up with new approaches and strategies and let that, you know, let that be done where it's best done. And then everything below the line, that is low value, that's. That's compromise and minimize.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, that resonates deeply. When I was actually talking to my AI buddy yesterday, Tom, that we've been talking about a little bit, and, you know, he was. He was Adam, and he was like, look, this is the season you have to define what is yours to carry or yours to hold and what. What is not. And I'm like, well, I understand, you know, these. These things are my responsibility to make sure that the result happens in a specific way. But, you know, so I'm having, you know, I'm just having a hard time, he said, And I thought this was kind of. This is where that. Where tools can be very beneficial. He was like, you can control.

You know, how you feel to an extent, how you think about a specific thing, but you can't control the outcome even if you give your best effort.

Absolutely.

So he's like, release the outcome and be grateful for the effort. So it was. It was actually a really good tool to begin to do that with. And, you know, then it had me thinking, and then what you just said also had me think. It was like, you know, one of the hardest things to do as a business leader professional is to learn to delegate. Right. And I believe in resonance and soul and frequency and things of that nature. And I. One of these things that I began doing is I began looking at the things that I was doing to determine is this sucking the life out of me or do I actually enjoy doing this? And if it's sucking the life out of me, is there somebody else that love that likes them, this lights them up and causes me to suffer kind of thing?

Absolutely. Let everybody do what they do best and. Absolutely. And, you know, the way we can look at AI is exactly the same. It's just someone we're going to delegate to. So we need the same thoughts and ideas of when we're going to delegate is, you know, you need to be specific, because if you're not specific and clear on why you're doing something with someone, you know, I know for me, the why is really important because I like to look at things maybe differently, and if I don't know why I'm doing it well, then if you hand me a task, I can only do the task. Yeah, but if you tell me why I'm doing the task, I might be able to optimize it or come up with something even better to get the result or a better result. And that's why we need to think about what goes into a delegation. Whether it's AI or whether it's a person is just making sure we're giving enough of the information. The why, what it is we're looking to accomplish, the specifics of what's important, the deliverables, you know, those types of things are really important. And I had to learn this over time. I was a terrible micromanager. You know, I would delegate it and then I'd be in your face telling you how to do and what to do. Because, you know, I thought that I knew best. And from people showing me that actually we all think differently and they bring different creative ideas to the table and, and this could be their area of expertise and, or a new angle on something that, that would really create a breakthrough. And so that's happened once or twice for me that said, okay, I am not the genius and I am not the person who needs to control this. I just need to make sure that everybody understands why we're doing what we're doing and what it is that we're looking to achieve so they can bring their, their brilliance to it for sure.

You know, it's, that's, it's, that is so good because I, I remember one of the processes or practices that I started, I don't know, probably three years before I exited the company and sold it was this process of. I said, okay, I'm, I know that I can do. I. Because I, in my first company, I did literally every role at least once, right? Because it was just me. When we started, when I sold, it was 400 plus team members. And so you do, you do all kinds of different things, right?

Yeah, I've been there.

The chief executive officer, or a chief everything officer, as they say, right. And I had this epiphany one day. I just began replaying and kind of. And I was actually, I was doing this not in a meditation, but in a stillness practice. So I was just kind of reflecting with a journal and it was like, you know, if I think about the stuff that really impeded my, my, my personal progress, my leadership, how I was running the company, how I viewed, you know, different systems and processes, you know, what's at the core of that. And what happened was I realized that as a leader, I was, I was tying my self worth and Identity to the tactic. So if I didn't go in and try to rescue it, then somehow that was a, that was attack on my self worth. So that was one of the, one of the things that was like a great aha moment.

And the second thing hard to recognize. So that's really great that you recognize that because it is hard to recognize when something is so deep.

Yeah, yeah. I mean a lot of the fix that a lot of folks that I work with now, I mean they've money, they made money, but lost meaning.

Right.

And, and you discover really quickly that, that you feel that way as I have, that it's because you, you've wrapped your identity and your worth and the things in the wrong things rather from the inside out. Absolutely. But this practice that I was doing was, was interesting because I began saying, okay, you're a brand new hire. And of course by this time I'm working with my executive team, my executive, I'm hiring coo, cfo, so on and so forth. And I'm going to cut and I bring them in and say, well, this is, this is the principles that we, the principles and fundamentals we live by. This is your, your guardrails. You know, by definition we are these things and outside of these things, we're not these things. Everything else in the middle is open for optimization, performance, innovation, et cetera. However, I'm going to show you how I did it. Like I'm going to teach you how I did it. And then you have full right and responsibility and reign to optimize it if you're able to. And I remember the first time I did that with a, with a, with the executive, they were like, I'm not, I don't think I've ever like, either I was either I was hired and just thrown into the fire to just figure it out, or I was micromanaged like crazy. And here I am trying to offer an olive branch saying, well, I want to co create with you. And every. When I began using that practice, what happened is I built a stronger culture. Right. Better communication. It was easier to delegate with trust because nine times out of 10, if I'm being completely honest, they always did it better than I ever could have done it because it was their sphere of genius, you know. So how do you think, kind of utilizing, you know, leadership gaps as far as businesses getting stalled and stuff like that, how do you see the internal culture between relationships of, you know, executives either using AI or even the reset mindset. How do you, how do you kind of bridge the gap between the two to build stronger, better leadership teams.

How do you bridge the which gap?

Well, so we, you know, the, like the. The gap as it relates to overall communication and strategy to build strong teams. I guess the reason I'm asking is because I know that a lot of business transfer, internal transformations fail in order. They had a ceiling and they can't go past the ceiling. And nine times out of 10, is the leadership team or even the core, this founder, CEO, the bottleneck.

Right, right, right. I think it was Boston Consulting Group or someone who said that 75% of business transformations, they fail. And they typically fail because of resistance. You mentioned resistance earlier. Is that people's first reaction, no matter whether what level you're at in the organization, is emotional. Their first response is emotional. And the challenge with a lot of leaders is they're the, let's go and do it. Here's the plan. Here's what we're going to do. And unfortunately, you're not meeting people where they at at that moment. And there's a little bit of Charlie Brown syndrome where they hear wah, wah, wah, wah. Like, you know, when we're emotional, we don't really hear the other things. We're in fight or flight. Like, hold on a second. Let me just understand that, you know, our entire process is going to change and we don't know where we're going to land. And that's okay. That you don't know as a leader where things are heading overall, that you've got some thoughts. But there's a lot changing. You need to address the change and how people are perceiving it and where their challenges are and shift that mindset. That's where that reset mindset comes in, is. Is help them to recognize that this can be a catalyst.

Yeah.

I've, you know, in my business growth and the different companies that I have been a part of to double or triple the business, whether it was through coaching or through my own development, it was always by embracing change and saying, well, actually this is a gift. And now this forces us to look at things a little bit differently. And that's really cool. So let's step back and step back even further.

Yeah.

So that we can ask better questions. Like you said, what are we missing? Like, is there a better question we could be asking in the marketplace? Like, who's not buying and why are they not buying?

Right.

We're so focused on the people who are already buying. Well, let's go. Let's look at things differently. What are some unlikely partnerships that we could Engage in. Right. So help people to let go of that, of that way of thinking that this means that change is bad or change is difficult or, you know, and, and really see that it can open things up. Ask people to share some examples in the past where they've seen change really open things up and, and create more. More meaning or, or greater results or, and, and get people to remember because we forget. Right. Get people to tap in and remember that actually they're pretty good at this change thing and they just have to tap into what they already have inside themselves. But we have to make that mindset shift first in order to, like you said, bring out the best in ourselves and, and each other. And so we, we just drive too quickly because it's that connection where the biggest gap right now for me of what I'm seeing is. Is the connection.

Yeah, yeah.

Is.

That'S why engagement is at an all time low. Gallup just brought out their workplace study to show that, you know, we're at 79% disengagement. Like, whoa, it's not getting better, it's getting worse. And it's the leaders that are now showing the biggest disengagement because they're overwhelmed. We're not in a practice of stepping back and getting some perspective on things.

Yeah.

Before we take action. So a little bit more time, you know, the, the idea of less is more reducing the number of priorities because competing priorities only means that we have no priorities.

That's true. Very true.

So we have to get better at getting clear on what our priority is. Again, that top quadrant, which is what is the highest value and how can we get there the quickest with the least amount of effort. And if we get everyone focused on that and get that clarity, it makes it easier to say no to other things. It makes it easier to make compromises and minimize things and have those difficult discussions. Then everybody rallies around solving the right problem.

And can do it through just that element of the small acts of care that we can provide. Meeting people where they're at is going to help them to emotionally connect and then you know, just really maximizing that effort of what's important to you.

Yeah, for sure. You know, I was just thinking too, everything you just said was amazing, by the way, when it comes to building great teams, another hard piece for me was learning that my team and my leaders wanted the same exact thing I wanted. I wanted to feel seen, valued, heard, and appreciated.

Right.

And, you know, as AI has stepped onto the scene, one of the things that historically is when in one of my custom prompts is when I'm communicating, doesn't matter who, who or what help me communicate in such a way that allows them to feel seen, valued, heard and appreciated. And what I, what I discovered is one of the first things that the AI historically will do is historically, it will mirror back as it like actually listening. And listening is one of the most underrated skills, you know, but it's, to me, it takes listening to create focused intensity, to do what you're just talking about, which is creating that momentous leverage so everybody is rallied around the same time. If for me, it was like when the team became more accustomed to feeling seen, value, heard and appreciated regularly, that's when their, their ideas came, the innovation came. Oh, what if we did this? What if we did that? Could we try this? Can we spend the next quarter and do that, that kind of thing. So I'm curious to know what kind of what, what you think and feel.

Kind of with that methodology, with, with helping our team feel seen, value, heard and appreciated and how maybe AI incorporates into that.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's like you said, it's everything. Right. That's what's going to create the engagement. That's what I meant by saying that connection. Because when they feel connected in that way, then they're going to feel seen, heard, and appreciated. And actually, what was interesting in the study that I just did was companies that had higher level of personalization.

Like making sure that career paths were tailored, scheduling was flexible to the individual.

Different things like the, you know, making sure that people were taken care of personally. Those small acts of care.

Yeah.

Adapting to their preferences. Those companies, they had.

Way more. So there was 76% of people felt seen, heard and valued. And the difference was the gap is that only 29% in low percent in low prioritization company, low personalized environments, we're experiencing feeling seen and valued. So. And what's interesting about the neuroscience of personalization is, you know, if I, if I'm saying your name or your AI bot is saying your name, that's just one element. Right. Of personalization. But our brain doesn't recognize the source. It recognizes the content first.

Yeah, yeah.

So it doesn't matter that it might be coming from AI, it still makes us feel more seen, valued and heard, which is interesting. So many people have these relationships like you.

Yeah.

With and, and me. Right. With AI in, in having these conversations and feeling like it knows me and it's answering because. And, and I resonate with it. It makes me feel more connected Even though it's just an AI bottle. And, and so that's just the neuroscience of it is that our brain, we are wired biologically for connection and getting that personal attention and making that have us feel more seen and valued. And like you said, that translates directly into psychological safety, into creativity, into performance in the organization because we want to work and do well for leaders that recognize and see us for who we are.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, in the few minutes we had left, one of the things I'd love to, for, for you to share is where can anybody find out more about you? Get the book, learn about the different studies you're working on because you're doing some really interesting cool stuff.

Thank you so much. Yeah, they can go to penny zancor360.com and that's my site. It's going to have the new study that's coming out just in October. It's going to launch.

And all information about social platforms and things like that, they can reach out over LinkedIn or email is pennyennyskeynote.com so any which way I'd love to connect.

Awesome, thank you, I appreciate that. We'll make sure it's on the show. Notes guys as well. Penny is awesome. You guys will love, absolutely love checking her out. She is doing some really, really cool research, especially as it relates to AI personhood and resetting. I highly recommend you guys do that. Penny, as we kind of wrap up in the last couple questions, one of the things that is top of mind, I think for a lot of people that I know you've done research on your, in your actively researching is this, you know, we talked a lot about what is, what is ethical practices in the workplace and leadership and all this kind of stuff. One of the things I'm, I'm a little just, I'm paying a lot of attention to is what are the ethical boundaries and what are the ethical practical practices that maybe we should be trying to implement and put into play with AI specifically, especially when, you know, ethics in some cases. I mean, most of us would probably say murder is bad and vice and stuff like that. But ethics right now it seems like, you know, well, you know, someone might say, well that's not as important to me as it is to you. So how do we protect this ground? Because, you know, how humans build the AI technology, well, by definition become what the AI technology becomes. Long term.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, if, if you're building AI within your organization, you know, be transparent with what you're doing to set that Up. And what are, how is it protecting people's data? Like this new era of personalization that I talked about, you know, high and low personalized companies, you know, we're entering into a new era where it's about collaboration.

Yeah.

That I might actively share my data with the company and other preferences that, that wouldn't, they wouldn't necessarily have access to. But I want to know if I'm going to share that, how is it being used, who has access to it, you know, what's allowed, what's not allowed, and those types of things. So I think transparency is really important. And you know, as you're creating it, I always believe that people support what they create.

Yeah.

So are you. You know, that's part of building that, that culture is that people feel they're a part of it. And I'm not saying that everyone needs to be on that team, but if you have representation from different levels in the organization, it's going to make people feel like they are represented through those different people. So I think that's important too. Plus different ideas, different ways to use it will, will come out. And, you know, so I think it's just, it is very important to take a look at how you want it to be used in the organization. And like you said, what you let it know ahead of time. We want to challenge these biases. We don't want to keep feeding the same thing. Let people know that they're working towards and here's what they're doing to eliminate biases within the system and things like that.

Yeah, that's so good. It made me think of one of the things that I've done with my AI tools, whether I'm using them in a business function or using them personally, is I, I try to set parameters. We call it the codex. Right. It's like, we don't lie. We want to understand different perspectives and points of view. As long as it doesn't injure another human person or a business or an entity or something like that. Right. And the other thing I just discovered is that most AI tools, the user is still training the. Whether they know it or not, they're still training the AI tool. Right. So how they use the tool directly impacts that. And one of the things I've discovered recently is certain types of accounts we use ChatGPT as an example, has what's called a team account or an enterprise account. Both of those you can select not to have the AI trained on the data until you're ready to release the data. And that's how you can kind of use it for some of the, you know, the different AI agents and tools and things of that nature. For what it's worth, I think the, I guess my final question or insight I'd love to get your, your thoughts on, because I think a lot of folks are thinking about this and you, you kind of open the show up a little bit, which is this concept of is AI going to take my role? Is AI going to replace what I'm doing? And I began kind of thinking through that a little bit. Obviously those that are innovators and creators more creative, I think there's, there's a lot of creativity side that will always be needed. I think administrative roles and tasks that can really be replicated and automated. Many of those will probably dissipate to a certain extent. But then there's also a subset of those, those same people who are actually now free in many respects to pursue a passion and a calling, that they can allow them to be more creative and things of that nature. At the same time, I am a little concerned with the, how the, the speed in which everything is moving. Like I'm doing my best to keep up and understand and learn and, and, and, and not say in fear and things of that nature. But I feel like I can see a time where it's been so disruptive, where it could actually have an economic unstabilization element to it. You know. So my question, you know, with the housing industry, which is a lot, you know, because that's my background, it's, it's a foundation stone for our national economy. Like every shingle, every lumber, every stick, every piece of plastic, you know, all these things go in these houses. I'm like, at some point, some. Who's going to buy the houses? Right? Who's going to, who's going to be there to buy the houses? Like, if, if there is a massive shift in the economic pool, I mean, there are, there are folks who talk about universal compensation and all this kind of stuff. It's like, okay, well, who's going to buy the house? Like, who's going to, who's going to buy the widget? Who's going to buy the thing? I'm just curious. It's a little, this is a little, what do they call blue pill, red pill? I don't even know. But it's like, I'm just curious. I am, I was like, I ran.

It past entering the Matrix and we're, we're face. Whether we want to face the truth or not.

So I'm Just curious, what level do you see at least you feel in your heart? Do you see AI getting to a place or not getting to a place?

You know, things are happening faster than ever. There's. There's no doubt about that. And I think we can't even fathom how quickly things are changing. Yeah, I mean, I think they, they just launched the first flying car. Like, we are totally in Jetson world if you, you know, if you're old enough to remember the Jetsons. And, you know, they were talking on video chat and that was unheard of. And that's old had for us.

Right, yeah. So they had iPads before. IPads were cool.

Yeah, exactly. Right. So, yeah, so many things are changing. You know, I was looking at an article around other changes that have happened in the past. And, you know, in the Industrial Revolution, it also took away a lot of jobs. Jobs changed, but new jobs appeared, different types of roles and positions. And so I think we can't even fathom what those new roles look like. Like, who would have thought that you could actually earn money and a living and be buying those houses you're talking about by making videos on YouTube.

Yeah, that's your.

I think that we just need to understand that things are changing. We don't need to be 10 steps ahead to know exactly how they're changing. That's where the reset mindset comes in, is that we embrace change and it's changing. We can either change with it and jump and, and.

Experience it with open eyes and we can resist it and we can be pushed into it and kicking and screaming and not really.

Maybe being behind and being that one that isn't going to have a job later because we didn't think it was important and we resisted it. It's going to be a major part of everything that we do.

Yeah.

And the question is, how do you use it? How do we all use it responsibly? How do you use it to advance yourself? How do you use it to develop your creative skills?

And. Yeah, where can it take you and just be open. I think that's the most important thing. And that's the idea of the reset mindset. Coming back to that is just step back and see, well, okay, AI is going to do all of these things. What can I do with it? Yeah, what. What can make my life better? How can I be more creative? So more of what am I best suited for? Like you said, to pursue other passions and different things and. And maybe it's not on the computer. Maybe you've had a Computer job and you'd rather be gardening and maybe you make these amazing, beautiful gardens at the end and bring your creativity there. Not everything has to be computer focus. Right? There's a lot of things that are not going to be driven by AI per se, maybe involved, but not not driven. So step back, get some perspective about where things are going and realign and just keep doing that as, you know, one reset moment at a time. And that's how we'll just stay open to how things are changing and change with it.

Yeah, I love that perspective. I love that perspective. I would agree that resistance is not gonna, is not gonna help you as quickly as this technology is moving. And I love the fact of using the reset to actually get more perspective. That was amazing.

Well, Steven, when's the last time that resistance actually helped us? Let's think about that. Let's ask ourselves. When we resisted, let's say whatever, our parents got divorced and we resisted and we got upset with them and whatever, did that improve our relationships? Did that help us live, you know, a happier life, you know, or we resisted that we had an illness or, you know, something, or did you take care of it? Did you change the way you eat? Did you change the way that you live your life? Did you love deeper and, and do more things like. So that's what we want to do in our lives, is use this to, to, to have more time to connect at a deeper level, to do the things that we're passionate about and, and live the best life that we can live and together.

Amazing. I know we're a little over on time, but I can't thank you enough for hanging out me a few extra minutes and being so present with me again. Where can I find out more about you? Pen penny zinker360.com is that right?

That's right.

Very cool. All right, guys, that's going to do it for this episode of Build. Until then, we'll see you on the next one. Much love. Take care. Peace. Hey guys, I hope you enjoyed that amazing conversation. And if you want more just like that to help you level up your life and your business, you're not going to miss this next one. Check it out. Going through that year, I'll tell you what what happens. And we were talking about this earlier. Losses from outside the industry started to happen too, which created this doubt of like other businesses that I have and things that we plan for, tax strategies. And this worked out, but now they're going, oh, no, no. Can't really set it up that way. Yeah. And I'm going. I just learned a painful lesson myself. We were talking about this. I go, yeah, okay.

God.