Why "Strong" Leaders Are the Ones Hiding the Most | Tyler Dickerhoof

takes me back to an incident. What happened when I was 14 years old? When I was 14, I had a younger brother die in a farming accident. I drove over him. He was 3.

Not only has he led and inspired upwards of 200,000+ people, he's also the bestselling author of The Things We Hide. Guys, please help me welcome the one, the only Tyler Dickey.

My insecurity of do I have value? Am I enough? Whenever that pops up again, guess what? Intensity is not far behind it. Intensity is a bulldozer. It'll level land, but it leaves carnage. The mirror's a liar because it's a reflection of our intentions. It's not a document of our actions. The only one that can tell us what our actions, how they feel, how they make them feel, is somebody else.

The insecure version of me repelled people that I actually—

Oh, you, you, you can speak for both of us there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, that repelled people, but the authentic version of me is magnetic.

Yes. I've learned that now when I'm repelling people, it's my insecurity showing. When I'm magnetic, I understand that I've gone through that work to figure that out.

Hey guys, welcome back to One Part Lion, One Part Lamb. Super excited. As you guys know, one of the things I've been ultimately passionate about all this time is what's known as the integrated leader. And one man right now exhibits what an integrated leader is more than a lot of men that I've met recently, and I'm super excited to share him with you today. Not only has he generated over $700,000 in sales, not only has he led and inspired upwards of 200,000+ people, he's also the bestselling author of The Things We Hide. Guys, please help me welcome the one, the only, Tyler Dekkerhoof.

Hey man, so glad to be here with you. I appreciate the opportunity to not only chat with you, but also to share with those listening.

Yeah, you know what's really crazy? Sometimes I'm a little jealous that we don't have cameras rolling constantly, 'cause the pre-conversation before the conversation probably has a lot of gold in it, for sure.

Always.

You know, one of the things that I appreciate about you and the Impact Driven Leader movement that you've been creating for a long time is this essence of understanding that leaders, unfortunately, are not fully aware.

Yeah.

Of kind of who they are, why they are, how they operate. And at least for me in my, my journey, I had to deconstruct myself. Like, I even shared some stuff with you off camera, like, probably 5, 6, 8, 10 times.

Yeah.

Before we jump into the man who wrote the book, I want to know who the man is behind the man who wrote the book.

Oh wow. Um, someone yearning to learn. Yeah, I think that's something that I, I found to continue. Like, even just the other day having a conversation with my wife She made some cookies.

Yeah.

And she just decided one day she's going to make some cookies and they were great, but they were a little flat.

Yeah.

And I asked her, we're talking about them like, well, don't you want to like figure out how to make them so they're a little fluffier? So they didn't spread out as much. And she was like, no. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, I don't understand that because I want to learn the behind it. What can I do to be better? What can I do to change? And what I didn't understand early in my life is that I had the freedom to do that. And I had the opportunity to change and not just have to push on. And just kind of work through whatever it was and just, well, this is what it is. The opportunity to step back and reflect and say, oh, what's really driving that? You and I talked about things earlier and you shared some personal things and starting to understand, what drove your actions, well, you start, you know, going back behind that and you're like, "Oh, that's why I do that. I don't do it intentionally. I don't even know if I necessarily do it." But the reason why came from here. Well, if I can start to understand why I did it in the first place, then it's much easier to change my actions. It's, you know, if you and I were wearing long sleeves, right? It's not, it's warm here. And if I put my arm inside of that long sleeve and I get a cut, well, I put a Band-Aid on it. And then the next time I wear that shirt, the same thing happens.

Put a Band-Aid on it. Yeah.

Well, be prudent to figure out what's in the sleeve that's causing the cut, the damage.

Yeah.

And we don't often do that in our relationships. We just keep putting a Band-Aid on it, keep putting a Band-Aid, keep putting a Band-Aid on it.

That is so true in so many different ways. And, you know, I shared with you, we've got a lot of mutual friends, which is a beautiful thing. In fact, as we got more talking, it's like, wait, you know, you're friends with, oh man, this is like an even tighter world, which I'm excited about. And the one thing we all share in common, it was, there was a leadership transformational moment that shifted us from operating from insecurity complacency, comparison, uh, that ultimately move the needles and shift it. I'd like to open up, if it— if you're willing, a little bit about how you got there, your, your major shift that, well, really changed the game.

Yeah. Um, for me, it, it was very much of, why does it have to be this hard? Here we go again. You know, it was, you know, from, from career to career to relationship to relationship, from my clients when I was nutritionist for dairy cows to a consultant to then a business owner, gym owner. And yet it was always kind of this, the same pattern.

Yeah.

You know, as Peter Drucker says, that life's a corkscrew. Are you going to be higher or lower, whatever you go through next? And, and for me, I was just going through that corkscrew, going through and going through and going through. And, and finally I have God tell me one day, it's like, this is how you deal with things. And that stopped me and it made me reflect, oh, how is it that I deal with things? Well, I put my head down and push. Mm-hmm.

Force.

Yeah. In that moment, as I was sitting in a locker room, gym locker room, sitting on the bench, drinking my protein shake, takes me back to an incident. What happened when I was 14 years old? When I was 14, I had a younger brother die in a farming accident. I drove over him. He was 3. And shortly after, the emergency personnel are called and I'm talking to the sheriff and he's questioning me and he's just going on and on and on and on. Just questions. I get fed up. And eventually I said, I'm done. I told him 16 different times in different ways it was an accident.

Mm-hmm.

And I finally said, I'm going to go into that barn. I point to my left. And I'm gonna milk those cows. I grew up on a dairy farm. That's, my family had cows and that's what I was gonna go do. And I said, "You can come with me or we're done." I was 14. I wasn't this big imposing, you know, intimidating figure. And it was mere minutes after a tragedy. And what I recognized is I'm in the locker room sitting on the bench and God is exposing this to me. Is it was that moment when I came to a challenge that the way forward was to put my head down and push. And so whenever there was a relationship challenge, whenever there was a business challenge, whenever there, I just put my head down and push. You and I talked about people that display that. And to me, that was a survival mechanism. So I actually, I see that in people and it still happens.

It was me.

It still happens to me. I am not, you know, I'll never be cured of it. Because whenever something happens new and different in my fears and insecurities, my insecurity of do I have value? Am I enough? Whenever that pops up again, guess what? Intensity is not far behind it.

Yeah.

Now the opportunity is, can I recognize it in the moment and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, sorry, sorry, I need to chill out.

Yeah.

Or as you and I talked about, take the moment earlier, say, hey, I didn't handle that right. We need to fix this. Because when I was younger, I didn't know it. I didn't understand that was what was causing all the issues.

Yeah. I wanna go back to just for, I don't wanna hang out here long 'cause there's so much amazing, amazing book by the way, bro.

Thanks, man. Yeah.

Everybody's gotta pick up a copy. I'm super excited about that. There's one thing I'd like to get, 'cause I have these moments in my own journey. I shared a couple of those with you today. Before we hopped on camera, where a tragedy or a trauma or a significant event has just occurred. Yeah, I quote unquote put my hands to the plow. Sounds like you put your hands on a cow, right? Yeah. Are you aware of how you're thinking and feeling in that, in that first tug? No.

And I think that's what um, is so foundational. I call them walls, you know. For me, intensity is one of them. I've also had moments where I'm insensitive, you know, just care more about me in the moment, not necessarily your feelings, just let's get through it. That, yeah, insensitivity. There's other times where I'll just like, oh, I know what to do but I want to do it. I don't want the rejection. I call that inactivity. And then the other one is isolation. Where you just disappear.

You're just gone.

And it's kind of like Homer into the hedges moment. And I have found that there's moments where each of those have popped up. Intensity's the most natural that I'll just go right to. And it's like, ooh, ooh. And unfortunately, it'd be too easy to say, oh, I recognize it. Real time.

Yeah.

And the opportunity is usually not, but what I recognize is when it starts to impact others. And there's moments in different people that, you know, we talked about this a little bit, people that trigger you, different situations. All right, I gotta be more wary 'cause my intensity's gonna show up there. If I'm, you know, in a work situation, employee situation, man, I've conditioned that to understand how detrimental my intensity is. When it comes to like one of my sons or, you know, my wife, It's a little too comfortable, right? It's just there. And I have to be so, so understanding. This is the thing that I want you to understand. I want the person watching and listening to understand is recognition is what it's about. It's never overcoming.

Mm-hmm.

We're never going to.

Yeah.

It's kind of like the idea of you're never going to arrive. It's, are you continuing to develop? And so the recognition, oh, Yep, they're my intensity. I own it. Sorry, I own it. Oh great, now we can move forward. Because if I own it in the moment— you just heard me be authentic and say, yeah, I struggle with it.

Yeah.

And one of the pieces that I've learned here, you and I back and forth, yeah, I have fears and insecurities. You have fears and insecurities. The person watching, listening, you have fears and insecurities too. We're all human. Everyone does. So that person that you're having difficulty with, they have fears and insecurities too.

Yeah. The difference is the recognition piece. Oh, I didn't recognize it. One of the things that you said is the—

I would—

it's funny, the words I would have used, because one of my biggest— I shared, I shared a story with you earlier about a moment where a significant event had happened in my life again for like the fourth time in my history, right?

Yeah.

Major event covers a major, you know, timeframe of my life. And I, like you, with business specifically, like, I would put my head down and push. I'd figure it out. I was the guy that's like, stop telling me that can't be done. It can be done. We just have to figure out how to do it. Yeah, it's the whole light bulb thing, right? Making a light bulb. I also discovered that that didn't really work in, uh, any kind of relationship, whether it be romantic, uh, co-working, family member, It never worked. And what I realized was, to the point of wanting to be recognized or validated or seen, that the biggest transformational moment I've had in the last couple of years specifically, and I know you talk a lot about in the book, which is why I want to dig in here a little bit, is you can't see or you cannot be seen until you learn to see yourself. Yeah. My experience has been so far, high-capacity leaders who have always been the force of nature that they get praised for is also the force of nature that's not allowing them to be the person they're actually called to be.

Intensity is, is a very unique, um, trait, um, factor, condition.

Yeah.

Because in so many ways it's applauded, and at the other edge of that sword, it's so damaging.

Yeah.

You know, intensity is a bulldozer. It'll level land, but it leaves carnage. Intensity is like, you know, we have studio lights here, right? And they're serving a tremendous purpose right now in the afternoon. We're here at 3:30 in the morning, man. And I flip on these lights.

Yeah.

Just, just not now.

Make it stop.

And that's the same. There's place for it, but man, it has to be measured. And, and what I found is if your— whether it's intensity, vulnerability— is the same, if it enhances a relationship, then there's a place for it. If it degrades a relationship, there's no place for it.

Yeah.

And that same kind of, again, that intensity or vulnerability— I, I say that about vulnerability— people sometimes they'll just, you know, dump all over you, right?

I was guilty of that. No, over, over vulnerability.

No, no, no, no. Why do we have a stronger relationship connection now or not?

Oh, absolutely.

Then it was appropriate.

Yeah, we've been sharing.

Then it was appropriate.

Yeah.

Yeah. If I would have came in here and said, don't put your heavy stuff on— that didn't help our relationship. Like, we've known each other for years. You are on my podcast. We have interaction, you know, mutual friends. That was appropriate.

Yeah.

If I walk in off the street, you've never talked to me before, do you say that?

Yeah.

Probably not. If you do, it's like, hey dude, like, I just miss you, bro.

Like, yeah, sorry you're having a hard day.

That's where it— again, that vulnerability is appropriate because now you've read stuff about me, I know stuff about you, I know some stuff about you too, but where you're at in life, that means our connection, how we want to help and serve each other, is stronger. There's always a place for that. And people get that wrong because they're afraid that if they're too vulnerable, somebody's gonna use it against them. And Andrew, see, that's possible.

So it's interesting you say that, 'cause I think one of the things that I've discovered is vulnerability is a bit like yin and yang.

Okay.

Okay, from what I've witnessed and seen. What I mean by that is there is a time and a place where vulnerability absolutely suits the situation. And there's a time and a place where being vulnerable may not serve the situation, kind of what you were just describing. Okay, so I'll try to give you an example. So in business, one of the things I used to do with the team that I had at the time, a much larger team than I have now, was at the end of every Friday or beginning of every Friday, we'd have a production meeting and an open meeting. Like everything from, hey, the life skill training to ongoing business enhancements to team member building, relationship, all this type of stuff, right? I had a knack for if I saw something in the company, right, that wasn't maybe going as well as it could be, including if I was the person that did it, I would voice my opinion.

Okay.

And the leaders that I had surrounding me at the time, my executive team, would say, hey, I understand what you were trying to do there, but you really overshared.

Mm-hmm.

Right. So, and ironically, in that last 2-year time frame that I mentioned to you before, we talked about off air a little bit, Uh, one of my coaches said there's a big difference in being vulnerable and oversharing.

Uh-huh.

So how would you describe the difference between healthy vulnerability and oversharing?

What we just talked about. If it makes the relationship and connection deeper, stronger, and better, then it's appropriate. If it puts a burden on someone else, yeah, no, no.

So how does a leader an impact-driven leader, specifically high-capacity leaders we talked about, how did he discern before they open their mouth, is this going to build this up or tear this down?

I think the metric that I use coming back, and again, it's kind of try it again, is it going to make the relationship better? Am I going to, um, be able to make the person's life better through this?

Okay.

Am I going to give them a perspective that makes it easier for them to understand what I see. Like, let me go through this. Uh, I define empathy as putting your arms around someone and walking with them.

Okay.

If I put my arm around you and you drag me, that isn't gonna work. If I put my arm around you and drag you, that's not gonna work. We have to be in step. Or to go to a, uh, a classic work, don't be unequally yoked. And to me, that comes back to this same idea. What level of vulnerability do you share? Be in stride. Put your arm around them. You're not dragging them. They're not dragging you. How do I give you enough, show you enough what I'm going through that's appropriate? Now, here's the reality. There's two ways to learn: mentorship or, you know, figuring out.

Yeah.

And that's what it takes.

One's more painful than the other.

And that's the reality is you don't know until you go through and somebody said, hey, Stephen, Hey, you overshared. Okay, what, what was too much?

Yeah.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

That person, that moment, not appropriate. Somebody else in a different moment, wildly appropriate because it gave them insight. So it's, it's very much a learn and discern.

Yeah.

Again, I come back to if it's going to make the relationship stronger and deeper.

Yeah.

Then great. If you end up like, oh, poor me, poor me, poor me, it ain't making anybody strong.

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking, um, a couple notes I jotted down was vulnerability operates out of love, oversharing operates out of fear. Yeah. So when I look— when I looked at—

when I was just—

I'm literally rehashing a couple moments in my business journey specifically now where I would overshare really for one core reason. Okay, one, it was to overcome some level of insecurity, or, and/or I was designed, I was desiring to be understood. And one of the things that I, that I work with leaders, especially high capacity leaders, um, that I, this is something I had to do as well, um, is I had to die to the need to be understood. I had to let it completely go because when I felt like I needed to be understood, I was constantly in defense mechanism. Didn't matter if it was a sensitive topic, more of a harsh topic. I would overshare and underserve because I was designed to be misunderstood. This goes back to me seeing, again, leadership rise. I had to learn to love and see myself before I could expect any kind of outside perspective, which is really interesting because once I learned to love myself, I no longer needed to love anybody else. Yeah, right. So which actually created a different level of a deepening of love in the areas of my life— family, you know, romantic relationships, even business stuff— because now, now I'm integrated.

Here's something that I, I see happen. Your kids are, you know, say, you know, early adults, right? Yeah, mine are just into that early adults. We've both been early adults. Know your challenges, my challenges, right?

Yeah.

A lot of early adults don't love themselves.

Hmm.

So they don't know how.

Yeah.

They don't know what that means. They're, they're, they're struggling with their identity, their insecurities. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of older adults that also struggle with that. One thing that I've realized because if you can't learn to love yourself, no one else will ever be able to love you at the level that you want to be loved.

Yeah.

And it always— that conflict, and that we're talking personal relationships, spousal, whatever.

Well, the thing is, it bleeds into everything.

Oh yeah, everything.

Because you can't have leadership until you have self-leadership.

Well, I mean, I used to I used to work with cows. We've talked about it a little bit. We used to say, you know, any problem on a farm, it was never four-legged problems. They're always two-legged problems.

Yeah.

And this is the same. It doesn't matter where the people are at.

Yeah. It's people.

And it doesn't mean to be afraid of it. It's like, no, that's the opportunity to, to, as I said earlier, it's like, I want to learn. I want to get better. I want to grow. I, I have that yearning in my heart. The difference of me doing it now is I understand that I need to ask better questions. And so even coming back to, you know, what we're, we're talking about a little bit here is, you know, whether it's that needing to be understood, start asking better questions.

Yeah.

You know, ask the question of, oh, like, you know, what was your perspective? How did you experience that? What would you do next? Like, gain that curiosity which is an easy after the fact, but it has to be something that we work at.

Yeah.

Like, I got challenged. I told you I was in a meeting yesterday, right? A little personal stuff, right?

Yeah.

And I got challenged by a couple people and it's like, you lecture too much.

A coach coaches. I can't help it sometimes.

And, you know, so I honestly, I went to Claude, said, hey, someone told me, give me a perspective that's not just me making stuff up or whatever. Like, what does that mean? It's like, oh, be more curious. Like, I, I tend to be. I have podcasts that I ask a lot of questions. I, I think I was pretty curious with you today, right?

Yeah.

But it's also, I have to remember to do that.

Yeah.

And, and as you're talking about this oversharing, it's like, dude, stop lecturing, be more curious. That, that vulnerability is curiosity exposed. And, and I think it comes back to, it's like How much do you share?

Enough. Yeah.

How much is enough? Why? How much do you need?

It seems like it's a bit like a muscle. You have to kind of work at it to really know when— what the balance is.

Yes, because unfortunately we, we have been conditioned as leaders.

Yeah.

To not— yeah, don't, don't be vulnerable, you know, don't run the risk of oversharing. Uh, we, we talked a little bit about, you know, content, right? They both create content.

Yeah.

And there's certain people, what they've learned— there's people that share everything. This is who I am. Or there's people that share little morsels and like, hey, see what's behind the curtain.

Yeah.

And as you and I have talked about the point of trust and everything, man, I need to share everything.

Yeah.

Now, what you experience, how that happens behind the curtain, that's a whole different level. That's what I've learned. But me saying, I'm going to give you a little morsel and then share something, That doesn't help build trust.

Yeah, I was just thinking too, like, all right, so you said earlier the importance of vulnerability being directly tied to essentially being authentic.

Yep.

And that vulnerability is not oversharing. So here's the note that I had that I just jotted down. 'Cause it goes into why leadership is hard. And I know you've already discovered, which is why we're talking today, it's because we hide.

Yeah.

Okay. Now it's about figuring out what we're hiding from. So here's, here's, here's, let me finish it. Let me finish it. 'Cause I'm piecing this together on the spot. When I'm oversharing, I'm trying to control the narrative or put out a narrative. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

In theory, because I'm trying to influence a people group or a prospect or whatever. However, when I'm operating in vulnerability, I'm not trying to control the narrative. I'm just seeking to be of service.

Yeah, that's good.

Now you go. Well, I was just going to—

no, what it was layering into that is when you were hiding stuff in your life, we've all hidden stuff. You've hidden stuff.

Yeah.

How much did the control Intensify.

Yeah, greatly. Yeah, one of these I've been public with my audiences about, 'cause this is something I've been dying to now for the better part of 5 years. All right, so when you start a company from the trash piles, construction site, homeless, sleeping in someone else's car, right? And you have nothing to do except for sheer force and resilience, right? It seems to me, at least early in my life, there was a time and a place that that force and resilience played an instrumental part of what God was building in me and through me that ultimately became something I had to die to later on.

Can I interject?

Yeah, of course.

What did Peter have to do?

Which time?

Step out of the boat, take ownership, go do. Yeah, it wasn't, I bestowed this upon you and go run with it. Like, there's a level of intensity that you need to get started.

Yeah.

Now the problem is when that becomes the only way you know how to operate.

Yeah, well, I think that's where— that's the— that's where I'm, I'm— again, I'm piecing this together just because one, I love hanging out with you, we have great conversations. They literally should have seen what we were talking about beforehand. Um, but also, I'm also rehashing my own journey, trying to extrapolate what the biggest piece of value I can give to the audience right now on this particular subject.

Yeah.

What I discovered was that the way my brain was wired then kept me safe. In other words, I had to outthink, outwork, and outperform anything and everyone that was well, anti what I was trying to accomplish. Okay. So what I mean by that is, is I would create strategy after strategy after strategy after strategy after strategy and implementation after implementation to just guarantee I would get the outcome that I want. That I discovered over the last couple years is a form of control.

Yeah.

Right. So it's a form of trying to control every single variable under the sun, under the planet that made me more of an anxious-driven, right, fearful-driven, insecure-driven type leader.

Yep.

Rather than creating a strategy that can be followed with solid effort and leaving the outcomes to God.

One of the elements there that I really want to share with you, but also, you know, person listening, Some of the best organizations that talk about the subject we talk about has real people that deal with these real things. And here's the, the comforting thing from that: we can talk about this, but you and I have to go in every relationship, deal with this every day. And the difference is, do you take the time to look back and say, oh, that's, that's, that's— oh yep, that wasn't working, that wasn't working. How do I be reflective? And you mentioned something earlier, is like you build all these things around you to create the structure to make you safe, to give you that security, because you're really acting out of insecurity. Goes back to the four walls.

Yeah, right.

And my solution, what I've realized, is the only way to truly break free of those walls— yeah, never be able to tear them down, because the next incident that happens, that insecurity pops up just right over again. It's, it's creeping, it's sitting right over there in the corner.

Yeah.

And it's just waiting to pop in. But what you can do is say, hey, do I put a window through that wall so you can see what I can see? And I can say, hey, Stephen, how am I showing up in this situation? What's going on? What am I missing? Yeah, I've learned that from my mentor, John. It's like, yeah, be able to ask people, what am I missing? Because you're missing something.

Yeah.

Because I can only see with my two eyes. You see something different. The challenges And we've gotten into this so much. You hear this all the time. Look in the mirror. Look in the mirror. You know the problem with the mirror? The mirror's a liar. The mirror's a liar because it's a reflection of our intentions. It's not a document of our actions. The only one that can tell us what our actions, how they feel, how they make them feel, is the other person, is somebody else.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's so easy to say that. Cause I, I've said to the audience a few times that, you know, we judge ourselves by our intentions, which is absolutely true.

Yeah.

Other people judge us by our actions. Absolutely true. Uh, but on top of that, one of the biggest lessons— I had a good friend of mine, Chris LaCrotta, used to be with the Ramsey organization, has been very successful on his own, uh, even ever since. One of the biggest questions he ever gave me as a gift— now this is during a time where I think the CHE at the time might have been $35 or $40 million in top-line revenue. We might have been, uh, with our 1099s, maybe 200 people strong. Like, it was a growing business. Yeah, great reputation, healthy margins, all the things. Okay. So on the surface, I thought we were winning. I thought I was winning, but I knew in my prayer time in my closet crying, like, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. Like, I got people with CPA, ABC, EFG after their names. They're part of the executive team. And I knew that I knew that I knew that I was squashing ideas because I didn't wanna feel insecure or I felt insecure or I felt, had fear. But on top of that, The other thing that I realized in that same prayer time and kind of leaning into that, that Chris gave me a question, words for, was he said, Stephen, all you have to do is go to your team right now. Team could be family, by the way. Team could be spouse, right? And just simply say, how am I failing you as a leader?

Yeah.

That was one of the scariest questions I have ever asked anyone in my entire life. But it humbled me to a place where vulnerability could express itself.

Here's the challenge in that moment that I've learned.

Mm-hmm.

And it's not always easy. You can ask the question.

Mm-hmm.

Then own it. Because whatever their perception is—

Yeah.

—is right.

Yeah.

You may not agree with it. Mm-hmm. May not be perfectly true, but their perception of it is right. And you have to own that. Now, that doesn't have to dictate every action forward, but you have to own that because if you don't own it, Then all of a sudden, that window that we talked about earlier, it's got bugs all over it. The only way to get it clean is to own it. Yeah. If you leave some bugs on it, eventually it's going to get, you know, built up where you won't be able to see through it. So if you ask someone, hey, where am I failing? Okay, all right, thank you, right? Appreciate that. But you don't own it. It's like, oh, I didn't realize. Thank you for sharing that with me. I didn't intend that. Okay, now I understand how that— all right, yeah, got it. Move forward. That's cleaning the windows. Yeah.

You know, it's really interesting you said that because I actually brought up another recent moment in the last few months. Um, I was sitting down with a handful of leaders for a company I own equity in. Okay. Um, one of a handful. And I had a long-standing relationship with one of these leaders. Um, leaders had helped me tremendously. I felt like I'd helped them obviously along the way as well. But one of the things that came up was, the room got dead silent and he basically said, "Well, I see it like this." Like not even asking for the question. He's a direct individual in general. Yeah. Probably intense. It can be intense. Yeah. He's also very caring. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I would say there might be some guarding and some other things. I mean, he's human, I'm a human. Anyway. One of the key things that happened in this, for the first time in my life, all this extra work I've been doing the last couple years, which I shared some of that with you, normally had he said what he said in prior situations, I would've felt the need to defend immediately. Well, don't you know about this? What about that? How'd you forget about this? How could you forget about that? Well, I did say that, but I really meant this. Going to that crazy, I would call it spiraling. And one of the things that I've discovered in the last couple years is if you're intently listening, you're intently writing. Like, I was journaling, making notes of what he shared. And then for the first time, I think he was actually surprised that I didn't rebuttal or defend or whatever. I said, you know what? I actually hear a lot of hurt and a lot of truth in what you're saying. I need to sit with that. Would it be okay if I sat with that for a little bit? And it blew the whole room, so much so he broke the silence in the room. He's like, guys, I wasn't trying to bring us down, kind of thing. But it was real and it was real hurt. It was real pain. It was real truth. There's also some probably difference in perspective. And what I've discovered is all those things can be true simultaneously.

Yes. Yeah. And we fall into, appeasing our fears and insecurities and unwilling to be vulnerable enough to let them play out. Yeah. One of the things that, you know, I find often is our perception of our fears and insecurities are never what they truly are.

Not even close.

And so yet we operate all the time based on. And instead of being vulnerable, it's like, yeah, you and I joked, why do I wear a black shirt? Because I get sweaty pits. I own it. It is what it is. Like, it's okay. And yet, as laughable as it is, like, well, I can work through it. Yeah. Like, and own it and not be afraid of us. Like, oh, somebody think less of me. It's like, 90% of people at some point are gonna— it is what it is, right? It's, it's that authenticity to be vulnerable and own it And then everyone's like, whoa, that's different. Like what happened? And then all of a sudden, when something does happen, that is a grace moment. Like, yeah, we all need grace. We're all gonna screw up. I'm gonna screw up, you're gonna screw up, we're all gonna screw up. If you are willing to be vulnerable in those moments when you can, man, it makes grace a whole lot easier. To bestow and embrace.

Hey there, I hope you're enjoying the episode. Look, I love making great content for you, but more importantly, we like creating great resources. So before we get you back in the episode, I want to make you aware of the Aligned Leader Index, which you can find at stephenscoggins.com/leadership. This is a one-of-a-kind tool that I wish I had when I was actually building and scaling my own organizations. Why? Because a lot of times the bottlenecks that we think are actually in our way are not really the bottlenecks that are actually in our way. And what the cool thing about this specific thing is, it's going to let you know what the number one constraint is internally, the number one driver that's actually in your way or being disrupted, or chaos and dysfunction are showing up. And number three, probably most important, where your leadership blind spot likely is. So if you're tired of your business actually running you and you want to take operational control over your organization, make sure you take complete advantage of the Align Leader Index. It takes 5 to 7 minutes and it'll give you instant clarification on the thing that's holding you back right now. Let's get back to the show. Why do you think— and I'm going to ask a very broad question because I know it's discussed a lot in the book, but at the same time, I feel like we're on a unique thread that leaders could benefit from. What is the subconscious or the emotional weight or baggage that makes us want to hide?

Man, I mean, we can go biblical back to Adam and Eve. Okay. But I also think it's unique in something that I found. Not a psychologist, right? Not pretending to be. The old commercials, like you stayed up, you know. But in the conversations I've had with them, and when I count, recount my own life, what I've unilaterally found is there's something that happens to us between 8 and 12, 8 and 14, that creates a— I, I would say a planting of a thought or idea. I had on my podcast Matt Payton, lives in Nashville, and he shared, um, a lot of times it's psychologist. Mm-hmm. Fourth grade. Um, for me, it— I've seen a little bit older, like that 12, 13, 14. I had somebody tell me once that they were told by a teacher that they would never be able to, you know, be an author. They'd never accomplish anything. Dude's written like 17 books. Yeah. And he was dyslexic. Well, he just had to figure out a different way. But then every single time he was writing, there gets to a point where it gets a little challenging and he hears that teacher say, you can never do it. But he's conditioned himself to work past it. It's, you know, what I have seen and found in conversations with people, whether it's, you know, even going to Mike Foster's Seven Primal Questions. Those primal questions, I even boil it down even farther. At what point did we question, am I good enough? Do I have value? And, and I amazingly, as I've interacted with people, I don't know, maybe you're gonna be different here, Stephen, is somewhere between that 8 and 12, 8 and 14, there was an incident. Could have been one, could have a culmination where we at one point said, oh, I don't know if I'm good enough, I don't know if I'm valued. And that sticks with us. Maybe not the same incident we talked about, you know, how repetitive incidences. But what I've— again, interaction and talking to people and going through this, like, something happens in that window. Here's what's amazing. I write a little bit about this in my book. I've even done a little bit more research. It's not an American in 2026. It's not an American cultural thing. You go back through the Bible, through the, um, you know, ancient texts from Buddhist to, you know, Islam, dude, any of them. Yeah, guess what they all reference? Insecurity. All do. It's a human condition. Don't know why it is. Yeah. And so it's kind of like coming back to, you know, what you were saying is like, what seems to be that central somewhere in that range? Yeah. As we're trying to figure out— go ahead.

I was just saying, it seems to me that it seems to be influenced by the class system. So what— here's what— so here's what I mean by that. It doesn't mean it's— doesn't mean it's true on the surface. Um, so around the time frame you're talking about. I might have been 10 or 11 years old. Yeah. Um, in fact, my grandmother had just passed away, went to go live with my dad. Hadn't spent a lot of time with parents early on for there. Um, my father on more than one occasion has said, Scoggins don't get ahead, they get by. Mm. Scoggins don't get ahead, they get by. And something in my soul said, I know that's not true. Okay. And I spent spent decades of my life trying to make sure it wasn't true. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So that's like a— when I'm thinking about the anchors, and but when I go back to all the way back, I'm also looking at the perspective of old man Myrick, who was my first mentor, right? I talk a lot about super uber wealthy, super generous, very effective businessman. I saw how people responded to him and then how people responded to my father at the time. And the part of me that wanted to be seen and validated wanted people to respond to me like they responded to Steve or Old Man Myrick. So I'm literally putting these pieces together, and I've done a lot of internal work, and that will never end because I'm hungry for it. But I just find that interesting because if I take it even a step further, the insecurity was one part comparison, one part guilt for stuff, decisions that I made that weren't great decisions, and another part like the shame that came with the guilt. Yeah. Right. You had shared something a little bit off camera about the disparity between guilt and shame. Yeah. I kind of want to maybe dig in there a little bit because I feel like there's an anchor of truth for a lot of leaders watching right now. A lot of leaders that are listening right now, they're like, I know that I do stuff that I don't want to do, but I do it anyway, and I don't know why I do it, otherwise I'd change it, right? Right. So guilty. Yeah, hence the, the leadership is hard, right? Yeah, right. So I kind of want to unpack, because for me it was like getting to the heart of understanding what I was feeling at any given moment. Like, I used to be funny. I don't even care about the stuff now. Like, I used to be somebody who had to, who had to when I got into a room with other successful people, I had to name things that were successful in order to feel like I was allowed to be in the room, even though I was invited.

Justify yourself.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. To me, that was one of the big ways that I started to understand my insecurity, Sean. Mm-hmm. You know, for me to validate myself is what I knew. Mm-hmm. Wasn't very athletic at that point in my life. Being younger. Yeah. I grew up on a farm in a day and age that was not this idyllic luxury thing. It was kind of like, I saw a joke the other day. It's like, it was on, I think it was a reel on Instagram. Probably was Instagram, not TikTok that much. And it was like, only real farmers wear overalls. I'm like, come on. That was the joke growing up. Like, come on. No. But this central point of how we are perceived is as much of our perception of others as in ourselves. And what I'm going through there— Probably more so. Yeah. And it's— and so when you feel like you're unworthy and you come into a room, I have to prove myself, it's more of how you feel perceived before you ever came in instead of saying, yeah, this is just who I am. And that is the whole crux. If we allow our insecurity to drive it, then our authenticity never shows up. And the thing about authenticity is, you and I both know, we've gotten through this, is that the world is yearning you to be you because no one else can.

And they only respond to that version of you. That's it. Be that. The insecure version of you, and this is, again, I've lived this, the insecure version, and I'll just speak for myself for the audience's sake, the insecure version of me repelled people that I actually—

You can speak for both of us then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That repelled people. But the authentic version of me is magnetic.

Yes. Yes. And I've learned that now when I'm repelling people, it's my insecurity showing. When I'm magnetic, I show up there. I understand that. I've gone through that work to figure that out. One of the things that I want to go back to, because you were alluding to it, and I think it's a good kind of segue. You're the host. I'm just here. But I understand where you're—

You're my invited guest because I know how much value you bring.

Um, we were talking about shame and guilt. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I didn't share with you, but I'm going to give this pre-context. We talked earlier about the pinnacle story in my book about the death of my brother. Mm-hmm. People are shocked when they hear this. I was surprised. About the story? Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm going to shock you with another story that I think is not in there. As I sit here 32 years later, I've never had an ounce of guilt. Not once. Not once. Not one moment.

That's profound. That's God.

Yeah. And I share that because that gives me the perspective on guilt and shame that I have, is guilt is is between you and God. Hey, I sinned, I did something wrong, I need to repent and own. I'm like, I, I have no guilt about a tragedy. It was an accident. I know other people, accidents, right? And there's guilt-laden. It's between them and God. Like, that's my viewpoint. It's not external, it's internal. Yeah. Shame is external. If I feel shame how I acted, that's your perception of me instead of me going to God and say, hey, did Oh yep, all right, that's guilt. I own that. I come to you. But if you shame me because of how I acted, that's an external thing. Yeah. And so oftentimes when we're trying to rectify between guilt and shame, based upon my experience, what I went through is shame is external. Guilt is between you and God. And when, when our insecurity starts to be driven by our shame, it's all external. It's not God saying, hey, I want you to think about this and deal with this and understand it. And also one of my perspectives and faith pieces, you know, here, there, Paul, the Apostle Paul, mm-hmm, writes about thorn in his flesh. Now, if you know the story, you're listening and you know the story of Paul, he was a crucifier and like he eradicated Christians, he attacked Christians, he would go and just slaughter them. Them. Imagine what— it's a little more, but whatever. He would go and just try to get rid of them and converts, becomes a Christian, knocked off his ass. But, but then talks about the thorn in his flesh. In my opinion, based upon my perspective, is that thorn was his guilt for crucifying Christians. That insecurity, that driven, like, I don't feel like I'm good enough because of what I did. That's how I read it when I read his letters and he describes it. And that makes it so relatable. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, same there. It's funny how that—

it's just using that one frame of reference how guilt turned into passion. Absolutely, because it drove him. Mm-hmm.

We also know that guilt unattended between you and God will absolutely wreck you, destroy you. Yeah, lead you into dark, deep ugly places.

Yeah, I was working with a leader recently, um, who told me some very honest things about decisions that they've made. And it was really interesting because they, they were being confronted with honesty, right? Some, some serious honest things that they had to address, and they were terrified that I was gonna judge them for it. Mm. Like, that I was gonna judge them for these various mistakes that I can see, I can already see God using to not necessarily even rehabilitate somebody, but completely restore them well past these decisions. And it had me thinking about, especially as a high capacity, so one of the other things that would happen in the business world is because of the position that I had, people would be often be terrified that I would judge somehow, some way, that 9 times out of 10 was the furthest thing from what the person they got, even though they had experiences with me not doing that, right? How much of hiding is related to judgment or the fear of judgment? I think it's a lot.

I mean, what— why else do we hide? Because we're concerned of the perception, the judgment, the, you know, if all of a sudden somebody finds out that you're not that good, then they're all of a sudden going to like, oh, I don't need you anymore. It's that concern that if I'm yearning for value and I'm presenting that I'm not as valuable, all of a sudden you're not going to accept me. There's that. Dissipation of acceptance. Here's what's interesting about you say that the judgment thing. I had this come up yesterday. Somebody was sharing something and they're like, well, it was kind of hesitant to share. I'm like, well, do you think I'm judging you? And they're like, yeah, I'm afraid you would. I'm like, Oh, I don't care. Like, and I stopped and reflected, and this is a long-term relationship, and, and kind of probably in wondering years past if it would be viewed as me being judgmental. And going back to, you know, what you were saying, kind of this being intense, having high expectations for yourself, which lays into over others, how that gets perceived as judgment. And, you know, I have— my intensity was always— my justification was I have high expectations for myself. I'm not necessarily putting you on others, but the display of my intense high expectations of myself made everyone else feel like they weren't good enough.

Made their compromise feel crushing.

Absolutely. And so when that comes down to that idea of judgment, oh dude, you can do whatever, like that's on you. But our actions give the display of potential judgment, even though, or, you know, we didn't necessarily— haven't done that in the past. I remember one time we're in the office, somebody resigned, right? Sitting there in office and they resigned. And I was like, oh man, you know, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry I couldn't, you know, do more for you. And you know what? I wish you the best. However I can help you, just— really like support, give the guy a hug, like so supportive. Yeah, yeah. Get done with the meeting and my wife and COO who are in the meeting, they were like, what just happened? Like, well, what do you mean? We can't believe how you handled that. We thought you were going to be upset and pissed off. I'm like, no, why, why would I? But yet my intensity, that judgment of, oh, you're gonna leave me, you're dead to me. I'm like, no, that isn't then I— the, the moment of some humanity, that softer heart that was really there, but being guarded by my intensity in situations where I was afraid of my approval and do I have value. Hey, I'm gonna— I feel like I'm in control, like we were talking about. I feel like I'm valued. I'm, you know, secure. Dude, the heart comes out. And layering back into this, someone's shame and guilt. If there's shame potential, well, all of a sudden I'm gonna bow up, I'm gonna get real callous and real hard. Yeah, defensive.

Yeah, man, is anything that— there's so many different directions we can go. I want to go back to the wall for just a second. Yeah. Um, because I shared with you off camera a couple of stories about how I went through a complete deconstruction phase. Right. So there's the illustration of the wall and then the wall having a window or not having a window. For me, I had to not only construct where the window went, I had to deconstruct the wall that the window would soon be in. So what is the cost, if you will, of deconstructing the wall? Or I can imagine a leader right now, like, hey, I realize that they're probably already thinking right now, I've got this, this thing, that thing, this thing, that thing. I know I'm judging myself. I know I feel guilty about this. I know I have a sense of shame about this. Oh, I know that I had a meeting last week that I could have shown up better. Or I know that I've got this opportunity with my spouse to be better than I have been. Like, I know that, I know that, I know that, I know that these things are there. For me, for the longest time, it was the fear of deconstructing the wall to put a window in the wall in the first place. Right? The pressure that, that, that I sensed was I was going to have to go through. And then one of the things I discovered was it was my resistance to that pressure that exacerbated it. Does that make any sense?

Oh yeah, but I'm gonna tell you no, it wasn't. Okay. You know what you're afraid of?

What was I afraid of?

Standing up in the boat. Hmm. Because you were told not to. Because standing up in the boat meant that you weren't safe. Mm-hmm. Taking down the wall. Yep. That you had built meant that you were potentially not safe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Does that make sense now?

It does. Yeah. He's also referring to a story we had off camera today.

You're like, oh, I layered that in.

It's all right, it's in the book. They can read about it later. Yeah, that's great.

Uh, but, but that's, that's how I perceive that, right? It's that when I was first working through this myself, I was like, oh, okay, you know, we can tear down those walls. I'm like, nah, can't, because there's going to be a moment I'm afraid to stand up. How do I deal with that? That wall's there. It was built when we were younger. Yeah, something happened. Yep. Yeah, it was a response. And so the idea that, oh, I can tear that down, like, no, no, no, the foundation's still there. That's why the idea of like, oh, I can put windows, like, hey, I don't know if we were supposed to stand up in the boat like you told us. Like, I'm not sure.

I don't know if I want those things in this room.

Totally. Yeah. And so it's kind of like the, the idea is like, hey, I have to put that window here. The wall's still there, right? Because I have to be willing to say I might show up like this, but I don't want to because I know it's damaging. Yeah. So instead I'm gonna say, hey, I'm owning my insecurities. I'm owning my response. I may be intense. I may be insensitive. I may check out. I may, like, choose to not do it. I know that's innately what might happen. I don't want that to happen in our relationship. So what I'm going to do is say, hey, Stephen, what are you seeing right now? Hey, you're being intense. Okay, I got to own that. Hey, dude, why didn't you do anything? I got to own that. Like, where you been? Like, I got to own that. It's like, you're being a jackass. I got to own that. Like, those are all those elements that you have to own. And it's too easy if we say, oh, those walls are gone. Yeah. Because then the next moment when it shows up, we're like, hey dude, I thought that wall was gone. It's like, yeah, now are you willing to own it the second time? Mm-hmm. If you know it's still there and you got to go through the practice of cleaning the window. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't want it to be. I hope it shows up less.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so good. I was also— it makes me thinking too, with the chance of showing up again and again and again, like, I didn't— the integrated leader that I am now and the integrated leader I have aspirations of being are still pretty far apart, right? Ongoing thing. However, the leader that I was in the past and the leader I am in today's timeframe had multiple tries at bat. Multiple strikeouts, an occasional home run, a few base hits. Like, and it had me thinking, just literally I was having this image of me in my head as you were talking about, um, this radical new awareness of the willingness to start over fresh every day kind of thing, right? This concept of doing it again, be okay. Like, it's like, it seems to me that you can start with one small window, and then as you get practice, you can go to a slightly bigger window And before long, you got a window like we have here at Safe Haven where it's just like floor to ceiling, left to right. Um, and that fear is not there, that fear of judgment or that fear of, of— yeah. Um, that makes sense.

Yeah, it totally does. As, as I'm playing that out, mm-hmm, is we have less and less stuff we hide because we realize that hiding it is what causes the Yeah, you mentioned something off camera before, um, about leaders who— everyone listening and like, dude, I mean, the real conversation was off.

Well, they can start watching the live tape. Yeah, yeah, no, but the grand scheme— no, this is a great conversation anyway. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I had to have you on. I wanted to celebrate the book. I want my audience to pick the book up for sure, um, because I was that leader who was more angry than not, more often than not. And I would call that in our vernacular being the immature lion, almost 100% lion, right? Very ego-driven, controlling. I would even say domineering at some levels. Now, what's really interesting, at least for me, and I think this would be interesting for other leaders out there who may be there now, is my intent was still to serve and help people.

Oh yeah. Right, but it was the—

it was the illustration that was coming out, right? And it wasn't until I did— until I became aware of the immature lion that I then swung all the way to the other side. I overcorrected, right? And then I became the over-functioning, people-pleasing, like, whatever you guys want to do. Like, I would call— I call it in today's, uh, terms abdicating your assignment or your throne, right? You were— you were giving headship over a certain thing.

Can I put a word on it? Of course you can. Doormat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much so. One side is a doormat.

Our buddy Rory helped me describe this one. Okay. It's called the empathy spectrum. Okay. One side's the doormat. You just let people walk all over you. Yep. You're afraid of the value, just like, oh man, just let me people please, to be a, a rescuer, like doormat. Yeah, the other extreme is where I lived a lot of my life. I was the a-hole. Callous, hard, um, maybe not even that emotional, right? And, and just like when you stop and you think about those, like the immature lion, that rage, that like—

because do you feel— I didn't certainly cut you off. Do you feel like that? Because I'm going back to the story with your brother. Do you feel like it was unsafe to feel? Because you went straight from the, the accident. Yeah. And to just go. Yeah. And then if you take that just a little bit further— and again, I've been the a-hole as well, so you're talking— you're really good company here. Like, I, I was— I put up walls to prevent feeling because feeling me meant I might get hurt.

Maybe. I think there was inherentness of growing up on a farm where you just got to do. There's no sick days, there's no, you know, do-overs. There's just do you do, and you do, and you do, and whether that is a personality trait that's an attribute because of that resilience, or, you know, you just learned to like— I don't want to say if it's not feel, it could be, or the act of feeling is just doing.

I mean, for me it was very automatic, so I didn't even realize I wasn't pushing things. Like, I didn't realize I wasn't, like, not feeling.

Yeah. And, and that's what I would say for me, it was like, I don't think it was avoidance always of feeling. And probably if I ever talked to my wife or maybe my kids or my siblings, is like, yeah, you were— it come back to being that that's what the a-hole was, that's what the callousness was, is we didn't see any feeling out of you that it actually like, oh, you were impacted. In fact, just like, on to the next thing. Which to me was like, there's always something else to do. Like, what can I go do to make sure that I keep moving forward? Yeah, because the scariest place to be— standing still. Scariest place.

Yeah, buddy.

Like, it's still one of those unnerving— I talked to you a little bit earlier, right? You talk about going on your beautiful little sabbatical and riding on boats and trying to jump out of planes, right? It's awesome. Love it. For me, it was you know, in this season, it was after 50 years. Yeah, well, like, in this season we talked about the book and my event and everything. It's like, I kind of feel myself, like, for my family, you know, it was a lot. I got to throttle back, and yet I'm chomping at the bit. Like, am I, am I, am I doing enough? Am I, like, and even still there's, say, hey, you're doing too much. Like, I saw this, um, we talked about earlier. Yeah, you mentioned it. I let it go. Like, where you like to clean, you have a very clean house, right? And for me, it's my grounding. Well, for me, it's like I get— what was it the other day?

Um, anything working with my hands.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I was camping with my boys and my brother-in-law. So funny. So, uh, I could tell they were being— they were uncomfortable, and yet their uncomfort I wasn't trying to do. I just it was almost an autonomic response. Yeah. So we're camping, we're camping in Montana, and I take my, uh, two boys, my 18-year-old, my 16-year-old, my brother-in-law who's closer in age to them than me, my wife's brother. And, um, it's the very last day, and our plan was that we're gonna, um, just finish up camp, barbecue, uh, go to bed, wake up the next morning and take off. And so, uh, I think my one son is helping make burgers And like, we're just the duties of the camp, right? Somebody's grabbing water, somebody's cooking this or that. And, um, I just start kind of picking up and packing and organizing and just like, there's stuff to do. It's like, hey, let's do stuff now, make it easier in the morning so there's less to do in the morning. And, um, you could tell they just start getting nervous, like, what should we do? What can I do? And this— and I could tell, and yet there was this essence of me. I couldn't not do it because it needed to get done. Yeah. And it's like, I even, like, as I'm recounting this, like, I know I made them uncomfortable, but it wasn't by desire to make them uncomfortable. It was, it would be wrong of me to just sit and look at all the work that needs to get done. Yeah. And, and it's just a funny little quirk.

So you were kind of focused in, hey, this is efficient. They were focused and we're trying to, we're trying to save her every last second.

Yeah, yeah. And it's just, I know I made them uncomfortable. And, you know, my one son's like, hey, what can I do to help? Hey, you can do this. That's what— and there's a part of me, it's like— and what's funny is, is I know if I were with somebody else, say I was with my brother, he'd be doing the same thing, and he would have been doing the things that I would go do next. Where there's 8 years difference in us, but just the, the wiring whether genetically, circumstantially, totally random. But what I, I come back to is some of that wiring that we don't even know is a response to— we're trying to find comfort but makes other people uncomfortable. And it's, are we willing to say, hey dude, just savor the moment, just chill?

It's funny you mentioned that. Um, beautiful story, by the way, because now it's got one of my own So this, this last 4th of July, right? So the first— this is my second— I purchased this safe haven, right, on July 3rd of last year. First full year, right? So I got to have 4th of July here last year. I got to have 4th of July here this year. Okay. This 4th of July, what's really interesting about the lake is my neighbor two doors down shoots off commercial-grade fireworks. But you also see that around the whole lake. So we hopped on the boat and just kind of sat in the middle of the water and watched.

We were at Coeur d'Alene, which we talked about. Okay. Yeah. So I can imagine just from that, I can imagine.

Yeah, it was amazing. But for the first time in my life, I had all 3 of my kids here, right? They collectively have 4 children of their own. That makes me a grandfather. So I had 3 kids, 4 grandkids, and spouses. And it was something I cherished. Like, it was one of the most beautiful moments of my entire life. 'Cause what I used to struggle with is the difficulty of being present. Okay, my son came to me, I already heard 1,000 times, who's also named Tyler. He said, there's one thing you do better, just be more present when you're present. Yeah. And what was really interesting is, because they would tell you exactly— I've— that me, mainly Stephen's dad, has come a long way, right? Because I used to be very much go, go, go, next thing, next thing. Now in my mind I'm thinking, well, I'm doing it for them, only to eventually fess up and say I was also doing it for me, right? Yeah, I mean, so, and they kind of had that awareness. But I remember this moment where everybody was starting to arrive. I literally just got back. I— airplane landed from a prior speaking event, landed. Armin, who brought you here, was bringing me here, and everybody was starting to arrive. And I was like, oh man, I want to have such a beautiful experience. And there's like 3-foot storks that like to poop all over the dock, right? So I'm like, I'm gonna grab the power washer, blah blah blah. They're all good because they were already all in here and they already know each other and whatever, hanging out with each other. So I'm like, they're going to have a good time. You know what's really interesting? The only negative feedback I got on a beautiful few days with the family was that I didn't come in the house first before I went to go power wash the dock. I was thinking, again, this is intent, going back to your story. I was thinking I'm trying to prepare a place for them, so to speak. And they're thinking, hey, we just want you to be in the place. Yeah.

Yeah, so anyway, it's something that, um, my wife gets fed up telling me that, and it is not by intention. But here's the— here's what I can relate to what you share, and this is what I found does, is it gave people the impression that my goals and desires were more important than them.

I could see that. I could, I could see that in that situation I just described.

Yeah. And that happened in work, that happened in, you know, children. Yeah. And it's a— to be confronted by it, if you're able to be confronted by it, is so healthy. Yeah. And it's allowing yourself, going back to what was it, to own it. So yeah, I— yeah, there's no other way to discern that. Yeah, I get like— we had a situation, our doc was covered in goose poop, and like, it's just like, I get the same thing. It's like, oh my goodness. And so as you're telling us, like, yeah, and the idea is like, I don't want them to have to see— here's what's amazing, Fun. We really stop and think about that again, calling it out. Were you afraid of what they would think, that your dock had poop on it?

So afraid of what they would think. We talked about Jud— there might, there might be an undertone of that.

Yeah, like, like, if, if it is, look Well, if it doesn't look nice because they love the house, then, then you wouldn't have had as much value. There's like a value piece of it. And I just wonder, because as I— there's a part of that for me.

Yeah, like, it's interesting. I have to say, I'm going to sit with that more because I, I know for me, because it was the first time they were all going to be here, I just wanted to have the most unbelievable time. And what I discovered is they could care less about the goose or the— yeah, whatever. Yeah, that's, that's pretty wild. But I'll sit with that more. Here's where, you know, I'm talking real life.

I'm not solved of this. I'm not like cured of it, right? And it's, it's— but it, it's real. Like, these funny little moments that happened still, even recognizing— yeah, and gives people the perception that our desires are more important than them. And, and when we think about all of this collectively together, whether we can attribute it to things we hide or not, that's what's driving our actions.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we got a couple— we got time for a couple more questions. Before we do that, where can everybody get the the book and find out more about you, bro.

Yeah, so, um, you can buy the book wherever you buy books— Amazon, uh, Books-A-Million, Barnes Noble, all those things. Uh, learn more about me, go to my website tylerdickerhoof.com. You can find out about the challenges that I offer, my Roundtable community, all those things, my podcast, which you've been a guest on. Uh, yeah, awesome.

Well, you gotta spell your last name because it's not exactly the easiest last name. You were blessed like I was.

Yeah, so it is Spelled like it sounds, but for some people that's phonetically tough. D-I-C-K-E-R-H-O-O-F. Two Os, one F. Awesome.

Thanks, bro, for that. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I have a hard time sometimes. I forget to— hey, if we have such a great conversation, I guess wrapped up, I'm like, oh, I need to make sure that people can find my people. Oh, that's amazing. All right. So I got a couple things here. So we have talked a lot about things we hide on the surface level. Again, there's incredible examples. It's a highlighter book. Make sure you snag the book. Have you have a highlighter with you? Seriously. Um, at what point in my world, my vernacular, did you go from lion to incorporating a lamb? Like, at what point, what, at what point did the shift happen?

Yeah, I, I think what's pretty cool is, as we talked about, that idea of the empathy spectrum. And that's the difference, you know, being that, um, lion-lamb is like being healthy there in the middle. Both is that integration of the two. That's what I call a healthy leader. And that was through the process of me starting to do this work of saying, all right, how do I need to overcome my insecurities and recognize how they show up? And then And what's the solution? And I, I at one point thought the solution was empathy. What I realized is that's a tool. The lion and lamb, as you talk about, that's a tool. Yeah, that's a tool, how we show up for people. Yeah, the solution is being authentically vulnerable. The lion, he's authentically vulnerable. The lamb is authentically vulnerable. Yeah, right. And it's, it's that peace. And the tool is the empathy. And so that was very much for me in, in going back 7, 8 years now. All right, starting this process, all right, I gotta dig deeper. That incident in the gym, it's like, all right, what's this solution? What's this solution? It's like, oh, that's what it is. It's to put my arms around someone and walk with them. It's to make sure that my desire to clean up the poop isn't more important than come in and give them a hug and saying, I'm so glad you're here, what do you need? You know what, you guys are settled in, yeah, I'm gonna do this because I, I don't want the, the little kid, right? And I say that, but man, I gotta remind myself in that moment because that doesn't always happen, but that's the practice.

So, all right, so one of the things that the audience knows I love is the, is the, is the theory of contrast. Yeah. Right. You have to know a thing to know it, to know anything about the other thing, right? The other side of that thing. Um, describe to me really briefly, what does a day in the life look like in a leader who's hiding, and a day in a life in a leader who's free?

Hmm. Yeah. Um, a leader who's hiding is they're avoiding. They're, um, they don't want to have those conversations. They make them quick and short, expect people to just do what they are told to do, um, be intuitive in, in a fault. Meaning if I don't have to interact with you because it, it's, it's just, um, a day where you're hiding is everything is overwhelming. I don't want to have to deal with the next thing. Why do I have to deal with it? It's always like this. Leader on the other side of it is excited. You get the opportunity to interact, to have relationships, to coach, to be alongside people. You understand that the job is the people. Yeah, that's what it is. And if there's challenges, it's you. It's not them. It's, you know, you know this too, whatever problem is in your organization. Yeah, it's you because you've allowed it, you've created it, whatever. And so it's, it's being the understanding that, hey, that's part of the process and the solution is we work at it together. It's not that I don't have those problems, is those problems. The solution is how we work through them together. Yeah. And really fostering that relationship and developing those relationships is like, that's a good situation. Yeah. In that when it becomes hard because that side of it's hard. Yeah. Is when the other person doesn't reciprocate. And you know why they don't? Because they have walls and they have fears and they have insecurities. And so the process really is you got to do it for yourself and then go help others do it too.

Yep. Serve the person you used to be. Love it, bro. Can't thank you enough for coming on the show, man. Uh, you are welcome here anytime. Thanks. Anytime. Um, excited to have you start working, doing some stuff with us, maybe some live events we got coming up in the future. Let's Yeah, it'd be amazing. So appreciate it. Appreciate you, dude.

Two shiny heads. Let's go. I mean, we just got to make sure we got plenty of matte cover.

It's all good makeup artists, right?

Yeah, that's right.

All right, guys, that's going to do it for this episode of One Part Lion, One Part Lamb. If you haven't done so already, go follow Tyler, go pick up the book. And if you are a leader right now who is struggling and you need immediate attention and you don't have a safe place to land, like you don't feel like you have a safe place, reach out to Tyler. He'll make space for you. This is what he's dedicated his life to, and I know you'll be happy because all it takes is another leader to care about another leader to make sure we care about future leaders. So hope you enjoyed that episode. Always like, share, comment, do all the fun things. I'm like every other person on YouTube and on Apple and Spotify and everywhere else. As much as we all hate saying it, it actually helps. It helps a lot. It helps us reach more people with great content and Let's assume for just a second, you know someone right now that needs to hear this episode, needs to see this episode. Do us a favor, send them a direct link with a quick love note from you and let them see it. It may just change the game. Them, their life, their leadership, any of it. Until then, we'll see you on the next one. God bless. Take care. Peace.