[Sales] 4 skills to master in sales and key account management with Anthony Kayas

So this is probably going to be old advice, but old advice is good for a reason. It's the one more call strategy. When you think you're done for the day, one more piece of information then be done for the day. If it's one more call or one more email or one more send, let's just say that the close rate, 10%, right? So five calls a week, 20 calls a month, that's two calls a month at a 10% close rate that you're going to win just by making one more call. And that is. We always talk about run rate and all that good stuff. Where can we get free money, know that additional set of emails or that additional one call at the end of the day on average could get. You could be the difference between 94 and 102%.

We have another great episode for you here today. We have Anthony K on the line. He is a strategic account manager over at Synthego and he's recently made the transition from owning a territory to now owning global key accounts. So he's going to share lots of insights about that four skills that you need to master in sales whether you're in the beginning of your career or later on in your career. And he has a great story to talk about why you need to lead with empathy and put yourself in the customer's shoes. And I think another really good one is he's going to tell you how to interrupt with a positive mindset. So lots of key takeaways here. Nick, what'd you want to.

Yeah, I think you covered most of it. I was really excited to chat with Anthony and how he's moved through and progressed because there's very few reps that are as competitive of me and like chasing shiny stuffs that I do. So it was nice to see how he's gone from being that kind of attitude into more of a key account role and what the differences are. So some real good nuggets in that.

Yeah. It's also fun. We know Anthony pretty well. So it's a lot of good back and forth, little banter. So fun episode. Let's go ahead and we'll jump right on in. Hey Anthony. Welcome to the pod. Pumped to have you.

Glad to be here guys. Glad to be here.

Let's.

Glad to chop it up.

See you again.

I thought I would never have to do that again. Lost that bet.

No, it's. It's really good to see you. It's been a while but I know you love your stories and I know you. You're aware that we ask every person that comes on the show give us a crazy or funny story that's happened in your career.

Yeah. You know, when I was going through my, my own archives to think of this, when I realized, like, what could fit into where I wanted to take this today? Actually, it was kind of one of the first calls that I had taken at the company I'm at right now. It was at an account that I had never covered before, but it was a hot lead that came in and they said they had some money they needed to burn and they had a couple of projects they wanted to do and they heard good things about the company that I'm working for now and they wanted to explore. So I'm like, okay, cool, let's set up a time. When I realized what they wanted to do. Doing my due diligence, I'm like, oh, I need to prioritize these guys. This guy can really, really, on a selfish level, help me, you know, help me make my number for the quarter and I can get it closed quick. So, you know, we set the time. I set the zoom link, you know, I close, closed that. And then like 48 hours beforehand, I made sure. Okay, we're still good, right? We're still good. And yeah, yeah, yeah, we're fine. You know, we're going to meet. 10am on Thursday is perfect. And I prepared my. I bought a second screen on my computer just so I had the question set up. It was like all like perfect and ready to go. 10am comes by on Thursday, nada, doesn't show up, Nothing, you know, 10:05, I'm like, oh, he's probably running a little behind. 10:05, nothing. 10, 10, nothing. 10, 15, nothing. At this point, I'm like, I'm being ghosted. After we had all set this up, you know, like, I bought a second, you know, damn screen just to get myself together for this one call. And like, nothing. So, like, you know, about 10:20 comes by, I close out, I call him, I call his phone, I call, and nothing. Still, like he's flat out goes, not picking up or any. So I'm all mad at this point. I'm like, we set this up. This guy wasted my time. Can you even bother show up? At least tell me, at least tell me you're not doing anything. Two days pass, he finally gets in contact with me and he says, first thing he says is, I'm sorry. So I'm like, okay, fine, you're there. Turns out what happened was his postdoc dropped an entire liter of 16 normal sulfuric acid in the lab. And it broke. Just acid everywhere. Oh, my God. Hazmat team had to come in, like, they had to, like, evacuate the building, you know, because there's, like, you know, acid eating through the floor. And at that point, I'm like, oh, I felt like the biggest jerk alive. Because I'm like, I.

You gotta tell him that you bought a monitor for that meeting.

What happened the back that day?

Do you know how much my monitor cost?

Well, it actually tries me, though. Like, it wasn't even a monitor. It was like one of those little, like, relay things for it for an iPad. So I just, like, put my iPad on this. But, you know, I just felt like the biggest jerk alive because, like, you know, I was getting all angry at this guy for what turns out to be a very, very good reason why he decided to bail on this meeting, you know, so, like, it was my team, my own teaching moment to myself. I'm like, I don't know what he's going through. Through. I should have been able to do that. Right. I did not put myself in his shoes. And, you know, like, I learned that. So now I never get mad if I get ghosted because I never know why I'm actually being ghosted. If you come back and you apologize to me, well, okay, fine. We're all good. But, you know, just. Yeah, when I found out that. That, like, they. Apparently it might have been like the school paper or something like that, you know, like, chemistry lab evacuated for two days because of sulfuric acid fumes. So, yeah, that one was like, I had to take a break after that one.

Yeah, I can imagine. How do you. I mean, you probably get ghosted all the time, like every rep does. How do you deal with it now? How do you make sure that you are providing that empathy and really putting yourself in the other person's shoes, while at the same time, you know, you got to drive these deals forward and, you know, make sure that you're. You're. You're progressing the opportunities. Yeah.

And actually good that you use the word progressing. Opportunity.

Right.

Because progressing an op doesn't necessarily mean progress to win. Right. It means progress to close. No is a finance or. As long as you tell me no and you tell me why. So as long as we come to a positive decision, then the op is closed and it's been progressed. The big thing for me is always that I've learned over time is coming from the bench myself, coming from, you know, a lab space myself, understanding that I like my entire job as a rep, whether you're brand new or whether you've been in the game for a while. My entire job consists of interrupting your day to get my point across. Right. Like, that is literally every call. I am basically taking up your time for something that you could. Something else that you could be doing so I could get my point across. And knowing that and saying that I'm not here to waste your time. This is what I think is going on. And if I'm putting myself into your shoes correctly, this is probably some of the issues that you're seeing. Right. And understanding them from a human perspective. Right. That they have problems too. That they have issues, which is why we're having conversation in the first place. Right. The faster you can get to that, maybe not personal level, but the empathetic. I understand your pain level.

Yeah.

The easier it is for that one to meet you in the middle.

One thing that you said that that's really interesting, which is like, your job is to interrupt somebody's day to, like, help them.

Right.

And I think there's this mindset for especially a lot of younger sales reps, which is, I don't want to be annoying. I don't want to be the annoying sales rep. That's just like reaching out to these people, bothering them, etc. I almost think of that as like a. It's a. It's the wrong mindset to have. You have a product that you believe can help them solve a problem that they may have. Right. You've probably selected your accounts in a way that say, hey, these are my best accounts that I'm going after that I want to get a meeting with because I know there's something I can do to help them and solve a problem that they have. So you're almost like doing them a disservice if you don't interrupt them.

So, yeah, there is a way. There are two things you're actually selling. When you're coming into a lab or you're meeting with someone, you're always selling two things. Right. You're selling for the company that you sell for, and then you're selling yourself. Right. I have this product that I think would be useful to you, but at the same time, I'm selling you me. Right. And I don't know if I'm ever always going to be at the same company. I've been at four companies now in my. In my sales career, but everyone still remembers me. Right. If you get to the point where, like, I don't know how I'm going to solve. If the customer's like, I don't know how I'm going to solve this problem, but I know Anthony can figure it out. You've already won. Right. So sometimes the interruption isn't necessarily to sell a product. Sometimes the interruption is just like, you look stressed right now. Do you need a donut?

Yeah.

Right.

But the other piece too is like the, the most of the time that you're interrupting people, it's to, to get time just to talk to them.

Right.

Like your job is to interrupt in order to then get time with them to have a deeper conversation. And I think that's also where the, like, the worst sort of objections come up is when you're trying to get that time. Right. Like if you're in a sales process with somebody, the objections you get are probably not really like personal.

Right.

They're not really probably going to attack you unless you really mess something up. But when you're prospecting, you're really interrupting people trying to get their time and it. They can get personal attacks that can happen in that time. So if someone.

My time though, if someone says no to my time, they clearly didn't realize it was me because who would say no to seeing me?

Because he's ridiculous. You ever.

I can't take that offensive.

There are strategies around that. There are strategies that I've used in the past and obviously in a zoom world, it's going to be slightly different than a face to face world where I came up through the game. But you know, some strategies can work at the same time. Something that I've done in the past that's worked for me has worked for other people. I've told this to. I promise you two minutes and you can set the clock.

Nice.

Start the clock. This is why I'm calling you. This is why I'm interrupting you. I read this paper that you had published and I had a question about this thing that. In one of your figures.

Yeah.

Because I think we can do this a little bit faster. 2 minutes goes up and then no matter what they're saying, they're like, oh, sorry, time is up. Two minutes. Do you want to continue?

Right.

And then that, then the customer makes that call at that point.

Because I've done the whole, I give you permission, if this isn't valuable, you can hit the end button or leave the room.

Right.

I've done that. But I actually like the two minute clock thing, especially in a virtual world. You can put it up on screen.

That's literally it. Like, you know, we set 15 minutes up or like, even on the phone, like, you set the timer, like right now, starting now for five minutes.

And if we can, Nick got a really interesting cold call once. You want to talk about that one? The opener?

Oh, I can't remember what was. I'm trying to remember that. Oh, yeah, it was along the lines of a guy who phoned me and he said, hey, Nick, just, you know, this is a cold call. You can hang up right now or you can roll the dice to see what I want. That was literally the line.

Yeah.

Did he know that he. That you were in sales?

Yeah. So, yeah, that's the thing. He was a recruiter, but he also had looked at my profile, had seen me posting. He's like, I think Nick's going to be receptive to me trying.

Well, at the same time, like, both stories have that similarity, right. You do the research on the person that you're calling, right? There is that little bit of personalization, knowing them as a researcher, knowing them as a scientist, knowing their personal pain point.

Yeah. And then what he got from me was great opener. I love it. What do you want?

Yeah, see, I think, you know, literally, was it like a recruiter saw your profile and knew what you were about?

Yeah.

Right. So, yeah, it's always the same thing, you know, and it's always knowing the target and knowing what makes that person tick or if admitting that you don't and trying to figure it out.

So maybe switching gears a little bit. Talked a lot about mindset. What are some of the things that you might recommend for people that are either thinking about moving into sales or maybe they're kind of early in the stages of their sales career? You know, I think you talk a lot about how mindset plays a big role in there, but, you know, what other. What other things should they really be thinking about?

I had this conversation the other day with someone. There are a couple keys to enter the game that I think that we all just need to keep reminding ourselves on. Number one thing, bravery is probably gonna be pretty big, right? Like, you literally need to walk into some place that you don't know anyone to or have any idea. And like, that there's a level of bravery at the same time, knowledge of self. Like, what is your voice? Who are you? Like, what kind of person are you? Right. You know, are you playing a role? Like, for me, I know kind of what my voice is. It's kind of loud, little bit obnoxious, a little bit aggressive, but at the same time, kind of like self effacing. Like, you know, you, you can make fun of me and I'll laugh at you. I'll laugh with that kind of deal. Right, but that's kind of that, the whole disarming thing. Organization, organization and prioritization, Right. So those are like knowledge of self bravery, organization and prioritization. I think what a lot of reps have problems with and you know, all across the board, new reps, old reps, same thing. We chase, right. You know, we see a lead and we chase it. We're chasing the business. Right. As opposed to prioritizing. These are the accounts that are most important to me. Right. Like if account X historically brings in 40% of my number, then account X should take up 40% of my time.

Is that true though? Hold on, I'll challenge you on that.

Go on.

Because if it's bringing, if it's bringing 40% of your number, does it take up 40% of your time? If that 40% is. They're maxed out at what they are able to.

There we go. And that's where the arc of the game comes in. Right. And that's where more additional research comes in. Are there new labs coming in? Are they trying to expand? Are they laying off? So that 40, 40 is a kind of a base level. We're starting at 40%. But if I know they're laying off 20% of their workfor, well, then maybe I'll bump that down and take 10% of that time and give it to a growth account.

Thanks for listening to the podcast. It would mean the world to us if you could help spread the word by sharing it with someone you know. Succession is a life science sales membership that includes on demand courses to uplevel your sales skills, resources to plan and execute your sales process, community for peer to peer networking and learning, and live workshops delivered twice a month. You can get access to all of this as an individual for just $79 a month or up. Level your entire team with customized learning paths built for each individual rep. Come join us at Succession Bio. The way I like to think about it is prioritizing your growable accounts. So not every account is growable. You have your best accounts, which are great, they're nice and easy to go and talk to your favorite champion that you have there. They love working with you and it's really easy and you could service them and spend a lot of time, you know, taking care of them, making them happy, great. But that's not how you grow your territory. Right? If you want to grow your territory, you Focus on these growable accounts, which are the ones that, you know might be harder. You haven't had as much success breaking in. Maybe they're already using a competitor, but there's huge upside in there. Like those are the types of accounts where I think prioritization is really important.

Yep. But that's, that's all part of the game. That's the organization part of the game. Right. Part of the organization is knowing all this, learning all this. Right. Did your champion leave the, you know, let's say, you know, at account X right now, all of a sudden your biggest champion left. Well, now all of a sudden, like, is there a chance to keep it at 40? You know, some of my time should be spent trying to defend. Like I, you know, you get that. But like at least have that base level.

Yeah. I also think the, the four things just listing I'm going to remember, like knowing yourself, knowing the customer, prioritizing all of these kind of things. They're really important. I think if you was going to step into sales now, I'd suggest you sit down and rank them. You're going to need them all, but rank them. And I know for a fact there's reps out there that are way more organized than me. And those guys should be key account reps. Right? They should, because they're going to, they're going to hone their skills, they're going to follow up, they're going to chase. You want, you want someone who wants to open accounts and loves to chase the chase, then you're going to want someone. They're probably a bit less organized, but they're way more driven to get that first buy. And, but it doesn't mean you're a good or a bad rep, but you need to know which one of these segments you fit in.

Right, Agreed. Completely agree. Like different, different skill. You know, each of those skills have been more important to me at different parts of my career right now. Like as I've moved from that hunder ish kind of rep trying to chase for everything to more of that global key account where I'm at now. Right. Organization is pretty much key. Empathy is key.

Right.

Like, you know, understanding that global account X handles things in a way different manner. And you kind of have to speak their language and I have, you have to learn their language. You have to learn exactly how they do things so you can frame your product the way they can accept it. Right. Unlike, you know, if we're chasing academics X, Y and Z, where it's kind of like show up and throw up scattershot. If person X doesn't make it, that I can try the same thing with person Y and then try the same.

Thing with person C. Yeah, I think that's a really good distinction, which is these skills and just natural competencies that you need, they're different and they're weighed different based on the job that you have. And so even for you, somebody who's made the transition from owning an entire territory where you own all the accounts and stuff within that territory to then, I guess in that case, like prioritization is really important. You have to prioritize your best accounts because you don't want to waste time not on the right accounts. Whereas then you move into a strategic account manager role and you're only working a few accounts. Well, your accounts are prioritized. This is what you got. But now you have to be really organized to know how do you then go after that and grow that.

The two things that I've had to remember as I've gone through the transition, organize it reorganizing. Because the way I organize myself as a, as a territory manager is way different in the way I organize myself as a strategic manager.

Right.

My notes are different. What I put in my CRM is different. The questions I ask are different. Right? Because it has to be tailored to that account, to knowledge itself. Like that's going to be key for me because as a native born and raised New Yorker, my voice, my voice works here in New York. Right. You know, because a lot of the people who live here, they act the same way as I do. That is my style. That is my, my own personal style.

I'm going to drop you in Sweden and see if it still works.

Right. You know, because like now I have accounts in Denver and Indianapolis and San Diego and Boston and Madrid and London. And my personal New York voice does not necessarily work every single.

So I want to pick up on that a little bit. Being a British guy, you go into small companies around here, then you go, right, you go global. So when you come from a country that's quite small and a territory to include multiple countries, understanding that difference, quite normal. And like I know the nuances between, for example, Sweden and Denmark, they're both Scandinavian, behave very differently, right? Not. But when you're a U.S. rep and you move into this role, it's probably a bit more challenging because there are differences across the US but they're way more subtle than the difference you get from going from where I can get on a train and in one hour be in Paris and they're a different world. Right. That's, that's the kind of differences you get here. So how have you, you manage trying to do deal with that nuance?

Well, he's technically in New Jersey, so that's like a little train ride. There you go.

Yeah, fine, I'll take that one. So in some ways you just own it flat out. And for some things, like when I gave a seminar in San Francisco a couple of weeks back, the first thing I did was apologize. Like, I am going to be a little bit upfront, I'm going to be a little aggressive. I'm sorry if that is a little bit hard. I'm still learning. But at the same time, I've worked with Global Account X enough to know that there are certain aspects in certain ways that everyone, every office of that Global Account works and I'm going to try and tailor it that way instead.

And you also should probably have more insight into how that account works than they do. Yeah. Because they're stuck in their bubble and their, you know, your location that they're at, they're probably not even talking to a lot of these other, you know, locations. You could be that connecting issue in this role.

I flat out, I've leaned into that immediately when, when the Jersey office said this. Do you guys have the same issue in the San Francisco this?

Right.

And that is exactly it. Because in a lot of these cases with 11, 12, 13,000 scientists at one account, the left hand and the right hand have no clue what they're doing.

So I can give you an extreme story of that. I won't name the pharma company because it'll be. I literally walked into a building and on this side was the biologics department of Oncology. On that side of the corridor was a small molecule department for oncology. They both work in oncology for the same large pharma. I finished a meeting with someone I had a really good relationship with, had a chat, said, hey, can you intro me to somebody in small molecules oncology? Because I reckon like if you're interested in this, there must be something they're interested in. Same disease era. And I was like, oh no, we don't know them. They literally couldn't give me a name of somebody in oncology because they were small molecules versus antibiotic. They were in the same building and they couldn't give me a name of someone. So when reps are out there thinking, oh, they must know him because he's never made that assumption ever. This was the same Building same state, like same country madness. Yeah, I'm still annoyed by. You can tell.

Yeah.

No, no, never. Where's my name? But it's one of those things where like you know, some, some of the, the, the, the hang ups that you don't see working with like academics and small, smaller biotechs you see in this large inertia companies and it's just something that you learn to deal with.

And you probably have to make procurement your best friend at these accounts too, right. I imagine that's a big part of your role where probably at smaller companies you don't have to worry about as.

Much for various reasons. They are in a lot of ways any company is the gatekeeper. They're going to be the ones responsible for cutting the poor. Right. So anything you can do to make their lives easier, like you know, an academic and a small farmer, like the rate limiting step is going to be the end user themselves. Right. But then you have, you know, at a bigger company you have this procurement team and it can be set up however many ways, you know, nine ways from Sunday. But you're going to have to figure out what their prime movers are, right? Like is it how many POS they get cut, is it how many accounts they work with, is it how much they can save off of, you know, off of list price? Like what is their prime movers too, right? They're just more stakeholders in the game and you know, if you mess up that relationship, well then you know, you always get put to the bottom of the pile and that's where you never want to be.

So I think another topic that we wanted to touch on a little bit was okay, you're one of the entry level roles into sales is typically like an inside sales or maybe like an SDR account development wrap or there's a bunch of different sort of titles around it, but it's mostly focused on like prospecting and you're typically in this role supporting maybe like account managers that are out in the field or you know, just we typically just more senior senior reps and your job is to go identify these opportunities for them. But then when you go to make that switch and that transition over to becoming an account manager, there's a lot of skills and differences with that role where now you're responsible for running discovery, you're responsible for driving the sale to close. And I don't know that many companies prepare the reps for that necessary transition very well. So you know, for the people that are thinking about making this move or about to make the move or maybe just did. Like what, what are the things that you would recommend to them? Like they already have these prospecting skills. Where should they spend like the first bit of time to make sure that they're really getting up to speed and making the biggest impact?

So I think that answer gets answered way before that transition actually happens. Right. When I had my account development reps and I had individual ones, I'd have a meeting with them and I'd say flat out, five years from now, what are you doing? And it's okay if you say I don't know. Right. Because from that senior level perspective my job is to help you get there. Like if I just use you for that individual skill set, then I'm just using you. Right. But like I am actually like your success. If I empower you, you will do a better job for me and then we can help each other. So in some cases, one of the account development reps did say, I do want your job, I would want to be in sales. I want, you know, so I flat out told them. And Harrison, to your point, a lot of companies don't do a good job in training people, but that person does need to be trained. So I will tell that person, just follow along if you see something on my calendar, like be brave about this, like, you know, take control. Like this is going to be a skill that you are going to need when you get to my level. Right. So like put time on my calendar, shoulder me on a couple of calls, I'll introduce you and I can, I can play that off to the customer saying that we're in training right now, but you can see, or the ADR can see what the difference is in the flesh. Not as a role play, not as a book, not as a part of training, but as an actual customer call.

Yeah. So it's almost like it's, it sounds like it's two sided here. Whereas one, the edr, inside sales rep, etc has to take ownership of saying, hey, I want to be an account manager. And so I'm going to be proactive, I'm going to talk to there, maybe the reps that I support, ask them, you know, hey, can you mentor me? Can I jump on these calls with you? Can I just be a fly on the wall? Can I learn? Can you help me develop? And then on the flip side, you hope that these, these reps that are in the role, the account managers are giving that time to the inside sales or ADRs to mentor them and help them.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean any actual rep worth their salt will be there to help the next generation in.

Right.

Because we all know our jobs are in some ways kind of fluid. We're never going to be at the days of being in the same role for 50 years is over. Right. Like we just accept that. So why not help people along? Right. And from that ADR role, like, the important thing is not just to find that, that mentor rep, but to find the rep for a reason that you respect.

Right.

It could be someone who sounds like you. It could be someone who has had success. Why is this person successful? Is it. It could be someone who sounds exactly the opposite of you and you want to get that. That different perspective. But the ADR themselves need to figure that out why they're going to ask that. That senior rep to be a mentor.

One thing I'll, I'll say on that is I agree with everything you said except that why wouldn't we want to help them? I think my opinion, what I've seen is the best reps are the ones that want to help them because the people that are at the top of their game, we're not worried about a players coming. I say we. I assume I was right, but we're not worried. That was a slip. I'm a slip of my ego. Those that are at the top of their game are not worried about someone coming for them. They want that challenge. They want you to push me along. Made me better.

Right.

So you are happy to help upskill these people and if, and then they step into the role that hopefully you move out of and everyone's happy. I think if you're finding pushback from a rep, look for one of the top performers.

Look for the top performers because they're.

Going to be the guys that are going to want to do it anyway.

I have told a rep in the past that was laid off. I flat out told him on the phone, I look forward to fighting you for the same opportunity one day.

Nice. That's good.

You know, but it's very true. Like, I saw a lot of potential. I just didn't work for, for numb for numerical reasons. And that's fine. I'm like, dude, you have skills. Like, I can tell that, you know, one of these days I want to fight you and when you're ready, I'll.

Be there and I want to destroy you. But it's going to be fine, you.

Know, really, it'll be fun. Yeah. But yeah, it's very, very true. Very, very true.

Well, we're running up on time here, so we Got one more question for you.

Go for it.

Yes, Give. Give us a sales tactic that anybody listening here can take with them and implement right away.

So this is probably going to be old advice, but old advice is good for a reason. It's the one more call strategy. When you think you're done for the day, one more piece of information, then be done for the day. If it's one more call or one more email or one more send, let's just say that the close rate, 10%, right? So five calls a week, 20 calls a month, that's two calls a month at a 10% close rate that you're going to win just by making one more call. And that is. We always talk about run rate and all that good stuff. Where can we get free money? You know, that additional set of emails or that additional one call at the end of the day on average could get. You could be the difference between 94 and 102%.

Yeah, I love it. I love that. One more. And if you just have that sort of mentality, it's gonna just push yourself each and every day.

We had, we had metrics around it, right, that you not always the lowest reps were the ones with the lowest activity, but the top performers were always the ones with the highest. So that's that one more cool attitude, right?

It's one more call, you know, and it doesn't take any real effort to do one more haul. Even if you do like the little fight like here, I'm gonna put the five minute clock on. I know you're trying to leave too, so, you know, we all tie together.

Let's all go. Yeah, one more call. Awesome. Well, thanks, Anthony. We appreciate it. It's been awesome having you on. A lot of great insights here for everybody, experience, reps, and for the folks just getting started.

No, I appreciate you guys. Anytime you guys want me on, I'm there for you.

Yep. And hopefully we don't see you again, but it's been awesome.

Well, I mean, you know, if I do have one of my accounts does have a London office. I'm just saying.

Oh, great. Well, come on down. We'll.

There we go.

We'll see you soon, man. Absolutely awesome. Been awesome talking to you again. All right.