[Sales] How to run effective events with Michael Adeniya

You know, when you work in sales, we teach ourselves that we hate those scenarios, that it's not going to turn into a deal. But in so many sectors, I think it's still like 6 or 7 out of 10 of most business comes from word of mouth. So if you can give someone a good experience, that means that they're going to refer back to you, whether it's a friend or a colleague or someone else that might be in that scenario where your solution might be helpful. And I've seen it happen so many times where I'm like, this is going anywhere. Let me forget about it. But the more I've told myself, you know what, just make it a good experience. Educate them with something like, you know, lead them with something that's going to make you memorable. And the more I've done that, more I've seen opportunities come back in the pipeline. I'm like, oh, oh yeah, that's brilliant. I didn't know when I didn't know that was going to come in. But that's coming from this interaction I had with this person three or four months ago.

Before we get into today's show, I wanted to tell you a little bit about what we have going on over here at Succession. So Succession is a life Science sales membership that includes on demand courses to uplevel your sales skills, resources to plan and execute your sales process, a community for peer to peer networking and learning, and live workshops delivered by experts twice a month. You can get access to all of this as an individual for just $79 a month or you can uplevel your entire sales team with courses and customized learning designed for each individual replacement. Come and join us over at Succession Bio. Okay, let's dive back into the show. Hey, we got another great episode for everybody here today. We've got Michael Adenia who's joining us. He is the managing director over at Frontline Genomics where they're an event company where they host the festival Genomics, which is I think in Boston. It just happened by the time this recording has come out. And then they have one coming up in London in January. So we dig into all things events with my bull. We talk about like what to do, what not to do, how do we decide what sort of events that you should be attending. And we even talk about like how to set better goals when you're prepping for and going to these different events. What kind of stood out to you?

Yeah, I think definitely setting the goals around events and it made me consider what I do probably not as well As I should when I'm at events and come up with a strategy about booking meetings while we're there. I think that was really valuable.

And the.

The sort of ethos of how we should approach events and not just see it as a walk in, sit at the booth and be done. How do you get the most out of it? How do you actually start to fill your pipeline from being out of it? I think that was really valuable from this. And he was a great guy to talk to, so it was a real fun of it.

Yeah. And hopefully we may have some stuff cooking in the books coming up where we might be able to work together on some inventive planning and strategy resources for everybody in the community. So with that, we'll dive on in. Hey, Michael, welcome to the show. We're excited to have you here.

Thanks for having me. Harrison and Nick, Hope you were.

Good to see you all good here. But yeah, really excited to hear your story. We asked the same thing to everybody. So what's a crazy or funny story that's happened in your career?

Yeah. Cool. All right. So I've worked in events for quite a while, and as you know, in conferences, there's always after parties and things that people go on to afterwards. Big portion of my career conference that I hosted was in Miami, so I'd often hit all the bars and clubs in Miami afterwards. But on this particular occasion, I. I've been wearing flip flops for most of the day. And we suddenly decided that, what was it, you know, midnight, that we're going to go to live like one of the sort of premium nightclubs in Miami. And I'm wearing flip flops now. Like, you're not getting in flip flops, mate. So I'm hanging around the lobby with all these, like, college kids that haven't got into the nightclub as well. And I basically bought a pair of shoes off of a kid that was standing, that was sitting there. And I lie. Actually wasn't flip flops. I was wearing Crocs. So I swapped Crocs with his shoes in $20 as well. And I've still got a picture of me and him shaking hands. Doing the deal is. Yeah, one of my. One of my best deals.

That's a hard. So you ended up getting in then?

Yeah, yeah. And got in in a random guy's shoes, which I. I haven't kept him, by the way.

Oh, okay. They weren't. They weren't.

You should have framed them. Should have got to sign the soap then framed them.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's yeah, I've got. There's loads of weird scenarios that you end up in conferences and in particular in Miami as well.

Yeah, and I guess that's sort of how you got into life sciences, right? I mean, so maybe give us a quick rundown of your background and how you fell into life sciences because I think events played a big role in it.

Yeah, yeah, it's that age old thing of I fell into sales and through an ex girlfriend at the time, she worked for a business called the Daily Mail Group and they had events in skiing, snowboarding, outdoor sports, which I was quite into back in the day. I come from a sports background and at that time a lot of the people around me were telling me, Mike, it's your time to get a proper job. Because at the time I was playing sport building log cabins as a cash in hand job and everyone was like, look Mike, get a proper job. Like you need to invest in yourself a little bit. So applied for this job to basically sell a conference and an exhibition called the Outdoor Show. So that was how I got into events essentially and I was selling exhibition stands and sponsorship packages. And then a few years later down the line I wanted to earn more money and transferred into more a B2B sales environment doing digital media. And that's how I got into life science. I kind of always had a bit of a passion for life science because my mum's got a medical background, she's a nurse, worked with the NHS like 35 years and we got our own sort of cancer story in our family as well. So always had an interest in healthcare and life science. But I'm in uni dropout and just never really went down that route of a sort of professional route within the life science space. So when I got into got offered a job in the conference space for pharma and biotech, I found it quite appealing, quite interesting and really, really enjoyed it. I love the innovation. Innovation is something that gets me really excited in any field in particular. One that's around changing lives and saving lives potentially as well. So yeah, that's probably the main reason why I've stuck in this space as well.

Yeah, that was what got me. I started in software sales for a company that was doing file sharing. So it. And then we pivoted and selling the marketing. But then as soon as I got into life sciences I was like, oh wow, this actually is just changing the world. Like this is awesome. Like we're doing cool stuff here. And then, you know, fell in love with it from that point on.

Yeah, And I always felt very different from everyone that. The traditional people that I meet at a life science conference, to the point that it's like. And especially back in the day when we didn't use Zoom, everything you did was. Was over the phone. Right. So I'd often be selling sponsorship, conference packages, whatever it might be, but the people won't see me until I get there. And I obviously look and sound very different from the typical life science community, which is. Yeah. That they say pale, male and stale. Right. Looking at two of us. Yeah, exactly.

I feel seen. I feel seen.

Outside of the visuals, though.

Yeah.

I always found that the scientists were also. I'm really. I wouldn't say I'm a extrovert per se, but I'm definitely more outgoing and more sort of. Yeah. A lot less conservative than the typical scientist. So although I loved hanging out with them, maybe I don't. You know, I'm not at the same intellectual level. I thought that there's something that I had that added value to what they were doing.

I think there's a. Like, there's a lot to be said for degrees and PhDs, and I got my degree, but not until I was about 35, through the open University, so also did that. But I think they teach you a way to think. And then when people like you, Harrison, and to some degree myself from different backgrounds come into the industry, you've not been constrained by those rules because you was never taught how to think. So it's great that you get the education, but you've also not been constrained. So having a varied background, a varied approaching, people coming into science and sales is really important because that's how you kind of sometimes get that innovation from somebody who hasn't been told, well, you have to do it this way. You've got a different approach.

Yeah, I always enjoyed having to find my own way. Like a big value of mine is. Is agency and. Yeah, just the belief that anything good or bad that happens in my life is down to me. Like I was responsible for it. So whether it's positive or negative, just take control of whatever that situation might be.

Yeah, that's. That's great. Well, because I think so. I think one of the things that we really wanted to dive into today was all around event strategy. Everybody's going to events nowadays. I hear them, I see it all the time. Just like Every post on LinkedIn is another sales rep at another event taking a picture of their booth. We could talk about. Talk about that in a little bit, if that's a Good strategy or not.

People doing little videos on Instagram of themselves on a plane then landing. I can't confirm whether I did that recently.

Biotech sales guy on Instagram. Oh yeah. And, but yeah, I think, you know, you're in this stuff every single day, so I'm sure you've got, you know, great stories, horror stories, you know, what works, what doesn't. So yeah, we definitely would just pick your brain and share, you know, what's working and what's not with the rest of the community.

Yeah, because I listened to an episode that you did with Alison lightly, I think it was, and that got me quite excited about how some people think about events. And you're right, I think after the pandemic, we recognized in the pandemic that events were a huge. I think the stat was something like events were actually responsible for 70% of some businesses pipelines. So when the pandemic hit, they were like, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse, but I'll try and avoid it.

Look for it. Yeah, rip it.

People would say, shit, we haven't got any events that we can do. Where the fuck are we going to get these leads from?

Seriously.

So they all flip to webinars and so forth, which was great then. And there is still a place for digital meetings and moving forward. But we recognize that live events is, you know, it's the creme de la creme in terms of getting face to face with customers and so forth.

I find it so interesting though, because it's different in this, it's in the life sciences where there is a ton of in person events and it's where a lot of business occurs. Whereas, I don't know, you go to like Dreamforce or maybe some of these other like massive software type of conferences or even some of the smaller ones for that matter is, I don't know, people go there to just like hang out, you know, I feel like it's not as impactful to the business as it is in life sciences where you can actually like get face to face, talk to people, you know.

Oh, interesting. I, I think I, I do agree, but I also think that there's, that there's, there's, there's opportunities left on the table that still haven't been capitalized on around that. Because you're right, I think that there's a huge opportunity to network at events and to get business done. But I see so many organizations invest a lot in events and they feel, all right, we've signed the check, we bought the booth, that's the work done. Like, yeah, the leads. It's like, I bought the fishing rod. Like, come on, then, jump. There's more work to be done. And they, they. Some research that an organization called GES did a while ago was that 80% of the value actually comes from what you do at the event before, during, and after the event, rather than what you bought in terms of the speaking slot or the exhibition booth or the prime location. So how you maximize how you capitalize on that, I feel I've got a duty to help sponsors and exhibitors do better around that if I want them to keep returning year after year. Yeah. When I walk past the booth and I see someone sat down looking at their phone.

Oh, yeah.

You know, they're talking, they're talking to themselves. Or worse. I'd walk past the empty booth and I'm like, there's no one here. And, you know, I might be standing there for like five minutes thinking, you know, I'll take a selfie myself and send it to the person that bought the booth and say, look, you've got an empty booth here. What do you want to do?

So I, I, I started a role as leading a sales team, and I turned up to the first event and I, I'd arrived and there's like, yeah, we don't do events. The last sales team said, you never get orders from them. And I was like, well, this is changing today. So straight out, like, within a few weeks, we're at an event, like, last minute booth, and it was quite a big show. And if the CEO of the company's listening to this, he'll know I'm talking about him. But I turned up and there's him and one of the other scientists sat behind the booth with their bag and stuff. And I walked over and I'm like, there's no eating, there's no drinking, there's no laptops on my booth. Stand up, everyone's out. No sitting down. And he's like, I thought I was in charge. I was like, not on my booth you're not. I'm in charge. Up and out. And that's what you got to be.

You got.

Yeah, exactly. You can't just be sitting around looking uninviting, like, no one's coming to talk to you like that.

Yeah, but what you said there, I think is really interesting is, you know, they have this preconception that the business isn't done or, you know, orders aren't taken out at events. Well, what if you set yourself a goal up front that we want to try and get at least one order or we want to try and get the route towards a certain number of orders from this show. Then you'll start to put in a strategy and tactics in place that can help you get that. Which. Yeah. What does your. Do you have the ability to take orders at the booth? They probably turning up without the ability to do that. Yeah. The typical process that you might go through for from first quarter to discovery quarter sale, how would you almost compress that for that event experience and so that if you can't take the order at the booth, you've got the ability to take it after the number of times I spent as sales and marketing teams where they picked up some leads and some, some of these leads sound quite warm but they haven't actually arranged the next follow up call.

Yeah. And it's like I was just thinking.

You wouldn't do that if it was just a typical sales process. Your typical sales process. You would not leave that discovery call without scheduling and arranging that next call and setting what the object, the objectives are of the agenda is for that next call.

I think you'd be surprised if I do stop. But I agree. What I think is fascinating that you called out here though is that set a goal that like actually matters because I think so many companies go to these events and we're like oh, we want to generate a hundred leads or like we want to, I don't know, you just want to scan a bunch of badges or you know, whatever it is. Or we're going to this event to check a box which I think you mentioned before. And. Or it's like we're going there to for visibility because we have to be there. Everybody's there. Like I hear these things all the time is right. Like the goal of an event. Whereas if you set the goal of the event to take an order like we are going to close a deal at this event, it changes the approach that you take to running that event no longer. Like I'm just going to go and scan badges. I'm just going to collect leads. I'm just trying to get this list of people I'm actually there to try and close a deal. I think it changes how you approach the event overall.

Yeah. And I think that this kind of goes into wider sort of goal setting but make it ambitious, make it exciting. Right. Let's try and, let's try and get 10 orders, five orders. Yeah. If you got one that was more than you ever had at any event previously. But you know A significant ambition that is exciting and makes you nervous.

Yeah, you know what? I obviously, I think I'm pretty good at this sales thing where I wouldn't sit here on my soapbox telling other people what to do. Right. But from what you're saying, I don't think I've been ambitious enough for the goals I set of boots and I. So actually, as you're saying it, my, my objective is normally more getting intros and meetings because it's a long sales process and yeah, consultative. But as you're saying, I'm going to set up a webpage with the calendar links to all of my global reps. I'm going to have that on the booth and people are going to come along and click who they want to speak to, depending on what territory they're in. And that's it. They book the meeting on the booth. That's my new goal. My next QR code too, if you want. Yeah, yeah, whatever. That's my next thing. So you talk to them and they book their follow up meeting with your rep there and then before they leave the booth.

I love that. There's no reason why you might do that.

I think it was your idea. I've explained back to you. But that's my prerogative because I'm Palmao and style. Right. So.

It'S fine. It's fine. It's happened all my career. I think that's a, I think that's a really good one. So. But you basically said that it's a long consultative sale. It might be a really high price point. You know, may, you know, it might not be realistic to, to book, you know, to get a PO signed or to take an order at an event. But you know what the meaningful next steps are. So have you advanced it from zero? And if they. Even if you booked five meetings for five reps out of the 45 proof interactions you've had, you know, at least you know which ones because sometimes you've got, as you say, you come back with a hundred leads or 200 leads and the sales reps aren't even calling any of them.

Or they take a week to follow up or they don't follow up like in a great way. Right. They do the same follow up that everybody does. Like here's what the process looks like today. So if anybody out there's doing this, just like stop because it doesn't work. You get a list of 100 leads from the event and you load up the same email template, said, hey, it was great to see you. At the event, blah, blah, blah. Hey, you want to meet and talk about like our products and service news, right? Like that is the same email. They send it out to every single person and that's if they do the follow up. And then they only send one of those emails. Right? There's no sequence, there's a follow up on it either. The trick that you have to do is you have to do something different because you imagine that person went to 5, 10, 15 different booths while they were there. They're now going to get 5, 10, 15 different emails that all look the exact same because everybody's taking the same strategy. So you have to do something different as a rep to stand out. So one of the things that somebody recommended is to figure out, ask them about a pet or something, or a hobby, something that's related to them that's interesting. And then write that down in your notes. So when you follow up with them, you say, hey, it was great chatting about, you know, your pet Roxy. And now you can't, like your dog Roxy or whatever. Like, now you have something that stands out in that message. They'll remember that from the conversation. So it's just like you don't have.

To do it and you have to do it organically, though. You can't just walk up below. What's your dog called? You have to like naturally have a conversation or you just.

I hate dogs. I've got no interest in people's dogs. So yeah, that wouldn't work for me.

The point is you find something that's interesting to that person that they'll remember from the conversation that then you can reference.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that that process that you just described, Harrison, is something that I'm. Because it's something that I'm challenging myself and our business to do better around as well is, you know, we give our sponsors and exhibitors a lead scanner so they can scan badges and all of that. And then what happens after that? Normally then organizers say, well, that's over to you. It's up to you what happens after that. But really I think we should have some sort of engagement in how we work on that together. Because they're ultimately that they're our attendees at our event. I want them to have a good ongoing relationship with our sponsors as well. So I'm looking at how do we help sponsor segment those leads into pots that might be. It might be regional like you described, Nick, or it might be these are our hotter accounts that we're already engaged with. What kind of content might we Send on to them after the event versus someone that's never met us before. Is there a different route that we might take? You know, do we help them create content after the event, such as a write of their presentation talk, or do we encourage them to, you know, why don't you just do your top five event takeaways so then you've got like a written document that, that attendee. Because bear in mind that they're an attendee first and then a prospect second. So remember the context that you met them was this event that had all this other stuff that they might not have got to see all of it.

That's true.

What's the con? What, what kind of content could you engage them with? Not your. Unless they've asked for it, of course, but sometimes it might just be, here's my sales prospectus. Here's, you know, here's the product sheet. Maybe they want that. Like if they've asked for it, that's fine. But there might be more to it than directly going to, you know, your product.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I love the idea of like the synopsis, like your point of view of the event. Right. Like, I don't know, if you're selling single cell sequencing technology, you might have your angle of like, hey, the top five things that we took away from the event as it relates to the world of single cell. That is a cool piece of content. I'm sure people would appreciate if they're as well interested in that sort of technology. Yeah, that's a good idea.

I always like to ask them as well. And I don't know if this is something that organizers should do is how they like to be communicated with. So like on the booth I'm like, hey, I'm normally brutally honest. They know the interaction they're engaging in. Right. They know you're a salesperson. They're a scientist. Right. Hey, as you know, I'm going to follow up after this. How would you like, how would you like to receive my follower?

No, it's.

And then often you get weird different answers or don't bother. And you've actually then just excluded them from your efforts as well. It's quite.

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great one. Do you ever be, do you ever try an angle that's like, hey, so I'm going to cold call you a bunch of times unless you tell me you prefer to get, you know, email.

Yeah, I'm gonna sit outside your house until you answer. Unless you tell me how you want to be asked.

Yeah, but asking people then put it puts the earnest back on them like they're part of this and they agreed to it.

They said, yeah, I want you to reach out to me via email. Great. Okay. Hey, you said you wanted me to do this. I'm doing it.

Or just as valuable. Well, actually I'm just trying to get some information. If you could just send me some, then, you know, it's just a, they either want a freebie or they do want some information and it's a longer play.

Yeah. And often, you know, when you work in sales, we teach ourselves that we hate those scenarios, that it's, it's not going to turn into a deal. But in so many sectors, I think it's still like 6 or 7 out of 10 of most business comes from word of mouth. So if you can give someone a good experience, then that can, that means that they're going to refer back to you, whether it's a friend or a colleague or someone else that might be in that scenario where your solution might be helpful. And I've seen it happen so many times where I'm like, this isn't going anywhere. Let me forget about it. But the more I've taught myself, you know what, just make it a good experience. Educate them with something like leave with, you know, lead them with something that's going to make you memorable. And the more I've done that and I realized I've seen opportunities come back in the pipeline. I'm like, oh, oh yeah, that's brilliant. I didn't know when I didn't know that was going to come in. But that's coming from this interaction I had with this person three or four months ago.

Yeah. I recommend software solutions or different tools or things that I know that I, that would work for somebody even though I hadn't personally used them. So it's like if somebody asks for a specific need, I'm like, oh, I know a great tool for that. Go look at this. But I've never used it personally, but that's okay. It's like a similar thing to what you're saying. It's like, oh, I need a single cell solution. Okay, well, yeah, go here. Because you know, they've got great options. But you can, you can recommend something without having to have used it per se. Right. So it's like we set up that good experience with that person, they're going to be willing to recommend you when somebody that they know ask them a question, you know, about that technology or something.

Yeah. And I Think that you're. You guys on the same page with, with regards to. I think that as sales reps, our number, our number one value is to be as helpful as possible. So just providing that help and that guidance around how that person's life could be easier, you know, how you can make their job more, you know, more. More. Be better supported. That's something that we can really is a unique opportunity for us that not many salespeople do.

No, I think a lot of salespeople underestimate the value they have in the view of the landscape they have. So, like I always say that when I was in science, culture, in sales, stem cells, etc. I knew what I did, like, really well, really deep knowledge into what I did, but everything outside of that was a bit fuzzy because I didn't spend my day focusing on it. Whereas a sales rep. Sales rep literally scans the horizon for everything that's going on all of the time. The new technologies, the new scientists, the new companies, the people working in areas. So there's so many different ways we can support people just with our knowledge of their world. Because you have a larger view.

Oh, 100%. And I think I. I recently read a book called Sales Pitch by April Dunford where she talks about brand positioning mainly. But in a sales scenario, to position your brand effectively, you need to know the pros and cons of your competitors. As a sales rep, we should know. Yeah, actually, this tool is great for this and great for that, but our tool is great if you're in this particular scenario, but it might not be so good for this. So we should be at the forefront of knowing that information and as you say, being able to distill it effectively for the scientists that you. You probably sell to. And in my scenario, it might be the sales and marketing teams that are picking which is the right event for us to get to. Right.

Well, I guess that kind of leads into a nice segue of how do you pick the right event to go to? Like, what do you. What should you be thinking about?

Oh, that's. That is really. That is hard. It all. Everything cascades from the overall business objectives. Right. So, yeah, And I'll use a scenario from literally a call I had yesterday actually, where, you know, it's a fairly new business, but they're about to launch a product. So sometimes timing is the key part of this. You know, if my event's in June, where they're launching a product in January, then, you know, then I'm missing the boat. Right. And sometimes, you know, you can't horn shoe something in that scenario. So you do have to consider the timing. You really, really have to consider the audience and if that audience is right. And I'm, I'm at the thinking, you know, I always just tell exactly the truth in terms of what this community is, what the ratio of senior decision makers versus junior. Because sometimes you don't. Everyone says that event has senior decision makers, but actually not everyone wants to meet senior senior decision makers at times. So just be honest about what you've got and carve your, you know, your exhibition floor to match that. The right audience. And the other thing I, I'd consider when shortlisting events that you think might be right. Again, word of mouth plays such an important role in this. Like people will ask, you know, businesses of a similar size or businesses they previously worked with whether this is a your show or not, that input is important. But also speaking directly with the organizers as well to understand that information and understand whether that matches your particular scenario is really important as well. And I always recommend, look, if you are nervous, don't go all full hog and get that 20k sponsorship package. You can get a lot of value by just attending and just booking a pass, doing some pre event planning, scheduling some meetings up in advance and use it as an opportunity to understand that audience and to capture data around your product feedback and so forth and see if there's a product market fit. I spend a lot of time talking to not just big companies but also startups that are that events. They put events as part of their go to market strategy and trying to work out which is the right one for them.

So that's interesting. So you would recommend going as a attendee first, seeing what they're like and then deciding okay, do we want to buy a booth?

If there's nervousness about it then I think why not like come and check the event out. In tech sales, the best way to give someone the experience of your product is to actually let the demo and get into the product. And it's almost the same with events. However, I can't let you feel my event until it's happening. So you know, as organizers we're always trying to find ways of how can we give you that experience or give you an insight into that experience. And video is probably one of the strongest ways and testimonials and things like that. But you know, sometimes if you're trying to build a sustainable business then it might be that, you know, let them come and experience it for the first time so that you know and it helps build trust. Like, it's so frustrating when you've got that salesperson that is just never going to give up in trying to sell you something that you're not 100% sure is right for you. Like, just back off and say, look, just come check it out for yourself and then let's take it from there.

I'd say in defense or don't even defend it, but in, in support of the event arranging industry, it's really hard sometimes to pick the right one because you need to know the right audience are going to be there. You need to know it's the right space for you, the right level. And the event organizers give you as much information as they can. But whenever I hear somebody come away and say, if they say the event wasn't for me, I won't do it again, I'm okay with that. When they say I got no value from it, it infuriates me because as you've said earlier in this, like, you should be arranging your own meetings. Your, you should be arranging to meet people that are there to meet businesses around it that you know are local, to use it as like a linchpin for a whole sales activity. And then that way it can never be a complete disappointment.

Right.

And you may say, not going to that one again, but hey, I had five good meetings. It was worth being out of town for. You know, that's the attitude I think people should approach conferences with. They're the linchpin to be somewhere and then you arrange everything around it.

Yeah. So much. Especially when it's a good city. Like, you know, it's in Boston or in London or in Cambridge or San Fran. Like there's. So, you know, if you're going to that city for a few days, there's so many opportunities to maximize opportunity around it.

Yeah. So would you, so I mean, would you recommend them just like prospecting into the area around where you're about to go, say, hey, I'm going to be in town for XYZ event. You know, if you're not going to be there, we'd love to stop by, you know, have a meeting with you?

Yeah, yeah, 100%, why not? I, I, some events might have a partnering tool. Use the partnering tool to schedule meetings if they haven't got one, you know, use Calendly or Chili pike or whatever. Meeting. Yeah, HubSpot web meeting platform you've got and say, look, I'm in Boston for three days. You can use your LinkedIn to let people know that you're in town and I've seen on LinkedIn that people respond better to faces and in particular video as well. Like, there's no reason why you can't drop, you know, a decent sized image or video with the link to people to schedule meetings with you whilst you're in town as well. And yeah, make the most of the opportunities you can. It'd be infuriating if you came away from those three or four days out of the office. It's your own time as well. You're doing it. Make the most of it.

Awesome. Well, Michael, this has been awesome. It's been a pleasure chatting with you, getting to pick your brain on all of this stuff. But we're coming up on time, so I want to wrap it up with one final question. So we've talked a lot about a bunch of different event strategies that people should do. Do you have one? Like, what's something that people should just like, avoid altogether when it comes to events?

Oh, if there is a partnering tool, don't just bombard people with meeting requests and send meeting requests to all thousand people on the attendee list or whatever it might be. But yeah, try and cherry pick which ones are the right ones, have a compelling reason for why they should meet with you and there should be some value in it for them as well. So, yeah, that's probably one. And then the second one is, even if I feel we touched on it earlier, even if you've got a booth at the event, don't rely on the booth to do all the work for you.

Yeah, that is, that is great. And stand outside the booth. Don't be sitting there behind the booth eating.

Get you?

Yeah, I'm, I'm looking for you. If I walk around the next conference, you're sitting at your booth. I'm coming to tell you whether you're at my company or not.

I should get you to just walk around my exhibition floor. I'll do it and be like, please.

Yeah, pass on flyers, patch on flyers for people.

I make myself sound even a bit more London, bit more intimidating.

Oh, well, nice to meet you guys.

Yeah, Michael, thank you so much. We really appreciate.