[Sales] Use a business case to beat the competition with Lewis Shipp

This approach to not just walking into a meeting, and I suppose that there's a term for this now, and just pitch slapping people left, right and center, but actually listening attentively to their challenges and offering them a vehicle to communicate their challenges and your opinion about how you can help to the executive team via a structured, succinct, concise business case that touches on a lot of the elements that you're going to need to get an executive on board with your technology idea. And really, the central principle to this is that even though you think you are the salesperson and you are winning them over with all of your miraculous pitches, the amount of time that the buyer spends in the room with you on a call live is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the overall sales cycle. They are selling internally on things that you talk about, things that you bring, content you share to convince a buying committee or members of their own company to adopt your solution.

Hey, welcome to Sal's DNA. We have no Harrison today, but we do have Lewis Shipp, who works at qbd. It's a great episode. I'm calling it the British episode because he's Welsh and I'm English and we have no Harrison. So hopefully you'll be all right. With my accent and his accent. We cover some really great topics in this one. It's all about building business cases and selling through business cases. And I think there's some really valuable points in here about how this is a continuous process on how valuable it is to the company and how actually it can get you through building yourself a champion within a company. In more, we're able to sell complex solutions. The other thing that we went over, which I am a big fan of, is inference. I've never turned it this way, but I think it's a really good way to think of it, learning through inference. And this is Lewis's term. And that's all about how we take what we learn from one customer and infer it into other similar profiles and use that to help us educate and sell. So Harrison is. In the end. So what we would normally say is, let's dive right in, but I'm going more British. Let's jump in. How are you doing? Really excited to have you on the podcast today. How you doing?

Good. Likewise. It's nice to be here. It's so funny that we now get to sit down after meeting only two months ago in a bar in London. So we'll take that.

Yeah. Then I didn't have coffee and that was probably a more enjoyable meeting, but we'll try and make this fun anyway, right?

We'll have a beer. Yeah, absolutely.

Cool. We prepped you for the first question because we ask everybody the same sort of questions as bookends and the first one is tell us a funny or interesting story, then you've gone through so far. Yeah.

So that's, I suppose one of the funniest stories that I have in my career, certainly as a salesperson is one of the very first. So when I left, when I joined my current company, QBD Vision, within the first three weeks I was expected to go to a conference in France having never seen the product, never done anything in sales before, never demoed the product, and the person who I was working with and going on the trip with said, okay, cool. You'll, you'll be going to the conference in three weeks. Demo the product, learn how to demo the product. Here's a demo 101 script that we've, we've kind of generated. Record a loom video of you demoing the product and then you'll be good to go. I'll give you feedback and you know, the first thing I ask there is how do I log into the platform. Never seen it, never clicked any buttons, but then get to the conference after going through that for three weeks, almost like a trial by fire. Since then I've always been able to demo the product. So it's bit of a crazy three week onboarding, crazy start. And then since then it kind of worked. So that trial by fire, not a bad thing, to be honest with you. And then a small, small tidbit there is because I was so early in my onboarding process and in a sales role, you're used to using a CRM. The colleague who I was with says, oh, make sure everybody you speak to at our conference booth, you're uploading them into HubSpot. My question is, well, what's HubSpot? I'm a PhD scientist who's never worked in a sales role. Now you're talking to me about something called HubSpot. What is that? So, yeah, trial by far, onboarding. But that's, that's the nature of joining a software startup. So little crazy. But we got there in the end.

I think I told you, sir. I forget which stories I've told on the podcast, so may turn me down if I've said this before, but I had a similar trial by firing my first ever sales role. I turned up on the first day, everybody still on holiday. Cause it was like the 2nd of January and I was told by the CDO I meant to be the technical specialist. Oh, yeah, you're presenting at the end of the week through AstraZeneca. In person. There'll be about 20 people there. Oh, and by the way, the person who's going to be your training isn't here until after that meeting. So here's a. Here's a leaflet. Go learn it. And that was interesting because along with, like you said, you've got to learn this. Your baptism of fire. I had every technical issue with equipment in that sound room as well, simultaneously. It was brilliant. But after that, no meeting could be worse than that. Fear of anxiety. So it's a good. A good stress test for an employee as well.

No, it's great. And like I said, like, since that point, always been able to demo our product. So I take on, you know, a lot of roles in, like, the sales, engineering space, doing demos, building projects within the environment. So all. All because of that, really. So, yeah, appreciative of that. But it was a little hectic at the first couple of weeks there.

Yeah. Well, you mentioned something there that I'd like to dip into and I'm going to give it to a preamble that often in biotech in general, if you've done a PhD, a postdoc, you're an academic, the transition into industry is hard. It's a mindset shift. It's also quite difficult to find somebody to take a chance on you. Although you're very scientific, they're very different environments, they're different. But to not only do that, jump from academia to industry, but then into sals, which also is a very different dark side of the business, as I call it, maybe you could talk us through that, how it came about, what was challenging.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, my sort of career, it hasn't been very long, firstly, but it's always moved quite fast. So even my undergraduates, which I did in De Montfort and Leicester, I went straight from undergraduate to PhD, so I skipped the masters entirely, went straight to PhD. Then I was a year into my PhD in pharmaceutics, looking at how to make pharmaceutical dosage forms with a 3D printer. Some pretty cool science. Then I was about a year into that where I got a message on LinkedIn from somebody who was in my university a couple of years before me. But we kind of knew each other, knew of each other, and obviously LinkedIn kind of connects you to people who you went to university with or close to that time. So she messaged me on LinkedIn, basically saying, hey, do you want a job? I think we have a role here. And I'm like, no, not really. I'm doing my PhD. It's a little tough, but tell me about it. And it turns out that was the fatal question. Tell me about it. We then go three, four, five months talking between ourselves. I meet the CEO of the business who is now my boss, talking about the company and what they're trying to do and then they asked me if I wanted to come on board in a sales role but really designed to be a sort of all hands subject matter expert in pharmaceutics, pharmaceutical development and pharmaceutical manufacturing to sell the product that we now, we now have. But then exactly to your point in that it's a transition from academia into sales which judged by my first three weeks, which was quite hectic, it took a, it took a little bit of time to get used to but no, I loved it all and I'm glad I made the transition now.

Yeah, it's crazy. One thing you said during that and a different guest we had on mentioned all of their good opportunities have come from curiosity and I think that like every time they've been curious about something, they've discovered something extra they want to do. And that was Sylvia that was on it. So she was talking about how she never really had a path, she just went through curiosity doors and that led her to where she was and she's about to really interesting thing. Sounds like something similar. Absolutely, yes. For a lot of people you feel like you need to finish something. So when you had that opportunity to not finish your PhD and it's turned out very what kind of gave you the courage to make that leap of what was, would have held you back?

I think, I think the actual timing of it is the thing and probably the only thing that actually enabled me to take the leap because one year into a PhD. Okay, you've done a bit of work. I, I published a paper as well. So I, I wrote a paper in that first year but if I'd have been in year two or even later, there's no way I would have left because I'd have put too much into it. So it was really, the first bit is a case of well, if I'm going to leave and stop this PhD at any point, now is the time to do it, if I am going to do it. But secondly, I don't know, maybe it's, I mean technically I fall in the Gen Z category even though I don't look like it, but anything to do with technology and certainly in our space in life sciences was always deeply curious to me because I had an inkling that that is the way the world is going. And obviously that is the case with AI and all this other stuff. So it was both of those things. It was the excitement about the new novel opportunity that wasn't covered anywhere in my educational background, technology and software, but also the timing around it. Like, I'm one year into my PhD. If I'm going to go or if I'm going to make a change here, now is the time to do it. And you asked like, what might have held me back and some of the things actually tried to hold me back. So PhD is obviously pretty respected. My family was obviously quite proud that I was doing a PhD. So my father, my, my mother were looking at me, they were like, you're going to quit a PhD even though you got it without doing a Master's degree. So you're on a bit of an accelerated path anyway to go and work at a software startup based in the US with a bunch of Americans. And my family are Welsh. So that's why that comes in who you don't know and you've never met in person. Yes. And then I ultimately decided to make that, make that jump. So, yeah, it was a, it was a mixture of things there.

Yeah, well, there's a couple of things to dig in there. The first one I'll say is I wonder if you'll be crying about the rugby when this goes out to air or whether England would have lost the world. But I, yeah, we got a lot of American business, so they may never know what we're talking about.

Still crying about the France camp.

Anyone listen to American go watch Six nations rugby, you'll love it. The transition into industry is a big thing. So you, even though it sells, it's industry. What was the biggest shock, do you think, in that?

I think it's that recognition that you almost, and I say almost because some of the stuff you learn in academia is useful. You almost have to throw all of that out. It is, it is almost like your academic background is the thing that gets you in the door. But once you've walked through the door, there's a whole different curriculum that you have to learn, study, pick up, think about. And I think one of the big things that I talk about in sales, but also now in life, I suppose, is the ability to learn through inference, I. E. If somebody on a call with me, like we are now, says that they have a challenge or a problem or stress at work, the first thing that I'm doing is going, okay, you in that role in that company, in that business, making that type of therapeutic modality have that problem. So when I'm on a call with the other guy or somebody else who fits a kind of similar profile, I can already infer that they have the same, if not a very similar problem. And doing that over and over for about two and a half years means that I have a very good now awareness of the types of problems and challenges that exist within the industry without actually being somebody who's tenured in the industry. It's that ability to learn almost by inferring situations.

So I would say that's an underrated skill in the sales environment in biotech. And I think it's particularly useful in what I would call highly technical sales roles because you've made that inference to one person based on another. However, that person sitting in their chair may have not come to that assumption yet. And your inference is also an education for them. And when you can start adding a level of value that is outside of just providing a product to clients, they start to see you as a partner and work with you. And that's actually why I enjoy sales. I never thought I be a salesperson. My wife still laughs at me and calls me a sales. But to hurt my feelings, I still consider myself a scientist even though I love sales. But I think that's the reason why because I couldn't see that parallel between how we can actually help research if.

We do it well.

And I think that I've never referred to it.

Yeah, it's a hundred percent that. Because then you get into a bit of a. Then you can almost build a relationship with somebody whereby you almost end up finishing their sentences like you, you know what they're going to say and the problem they're about to express before they've said it because you've, you've come into a call or you've come into a meeting with your own POV or about how you can help a particular situation based on your knowledge and your research. So it's then you kind of, you build that feeling of, oh, this guy isn't just a salesperson. He actually gets me and he gets the challenges of our business, which is a huge thing in the way of building trust, credibility, which is, as we both know, essential certainly in the modern sales process, but in any sales process.

Well, maybe we should, as Harrison would say, shift gears. But maybe we should say what the hell we want. Harrison isn't here.

Yeah. So we can do what we want. Right.

But yeah, let's move on. So we was talking before you and I'll probably over a bit about the difference between founder led sales and how you build up and how coming into the startup in that environment sort of shaped your sales process. So quite a broad question, but I'll leave that open for you to dig into.

No, yeah, absolutely. So I suppose for a little bit of context there, I was hired but nine months after my company raised our series Ed and that was the time whereby our founder and CEO was looking to establish the first formal sales team. And I was, I was going to be one one member of that. That was the time where he was looking to make a shift from founder led sales to a more of a team motto. So I was hired as probably the most junior person on the team because I was fairly fresh. The person I knew from my old university is the person who reached out to me. She was also on the team. And then there were two fairly established sales leaders from the U.S. one was hired to run the team as a senior vice president and the other one was a director of sales. Both combined at 60 years of selling experience. So fairly tenured there and, and I think one of the things that, that transition, at least for me, being so junior, not just junior to sales, but junior to the industry as well, in my early days, I tried to copy the founder's process exactly. As I got more accustomed to that and as I tried to do it on multiple occasions, I realized that it didn't feel right. A, because it, it wasn't natural for me to copy in word for word, which is what I was trying to do. But B, it wasn't working as well as I thought it was going to by sheer nature of the fact that I'm, I wasn't the founder and the CEO of the business. So because of that, and let's not get under any assumptions here, transitioning from founder led sales to a more team sales boat is one of the hardest things you can do in any company. Very, very difficult. So when I tried to replicate some of his techniques, some of his pitches, some of his, you know, words, I would often struggle in meetings because I would get so obsessed with saying things the right way. And then when I stumble on a word or say something slightly incorrectly, it would throw my entire presentation off. So upon a bit of reflection, I sort of took a step back from that and said, okay, how can I do this to fit my style? How can I do this to fit my personality? And then I kind of did My own research online and came across a number of resources now, most of which I use today to inform my sales process, which we can dig into a little bit. But for now that's kind of the context setting of where I got into the company.

Yeah, I think that's something that's underestimated by most founders, but also by a lot of first people in the door salespeople that founder led sales works and it works really well. And the reason founder led sales works well is they have the network, the credibility and the knowledge because they started the company and what the company does and they probably spent four or five years, a decade or more understanding that industry as well as they do and everybody in IT and building that network. You can't do that in the time you need to ramp in.

Absolutely. Especially true in our case because the founder and CEO of our company used to be the chief operating officer of a biotech in the US So uniquely primed to understand the challenges of the industry for which he designed that visioned a software product to solve some of those challenges. So in coming into that environment, firstly I had to even learn what the concept of a deal was right. So like it's not even a, not even a concept that, that you get taught anywhere. But also I had to try and figure out in addition to all of the insight that he is providing about the way that he sells the product, an approach that made sense for me in firstly that suited my personality but also suited my level of experience and perceived status to the person who I was, you know, on a call with. And then that led me to really dig into resources online and I was one of them is really in working with people on the other side of a call in companies to develop robust business cases that secure executive approval for technology implementations. Let's take a quick break from the.

Podcast to talk about what we have going on over here at Succession. We work with 40 plus life science sales companies to help them find more opportunities and close more deals. We provide a range of services to support your sales growth. So whether it's increasing top of funnel opportunities with done for you lead generation in person or virtual sales training reinforced by personalized training plans, recruiting top sales talent, or just building custom AI workflows to help make your team more efficient focused on selling. So if you're ready to transform your sales strategy, visit Succession Bio and schedule a call with Mick and I and.

We'Ll see how we can support you.

We'll dig into that now. Before that I'm going to segue into A shameless advertisement that there is resources that teach you what deal is. We have a welcome to sales course of succession that does all of those kind of things if you're interested. But that was shameless and I can't help it.

No, I wish, I wish I knew about that when I was getting started because I would have been probably the easiest customer you guys have got because I was just buying everything. I was using all of my L and D bucket. I bought Challenger sales books, I bought that books left there courses from. From anyone who looked like they knew what they were talking about. I was like just give me everything I need to see to see what we're doing.

Yeah, I've managed a lot of people during sales teams and being a sales leader I've worked with a lot of great reps as peers and also when I was in the lab experience great reps 17 and the one thing all of them have in common is the first best to not in the sales process and not believe that sales is just sales. And I'm a technical person but actually learn the technical intrinsics. Intrinsic does that work anyway, the detail of selling and the psychology of selling and the people that do that are always the people that go service faster. It might be undivided.

I think that's true not just in sales but in any professional discipline. Like if you have a constant appetite to learn and get better and evolve, you're going to leapfrog a lot of people who are a little bit more set in their ways. Just. Just a fact.

Well maybe you could tell us meeting up and up and pinging everyone but maybe you could be the. The book and the process you learned you now using your blog. So.

Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose in. In my sort of relentless pursuit of people who seemed like they knew what they were talking about in sales, I came across a guy called Nate Nasrala. I'm sure we could link to his LinkedIn as part of the episode but you really started to talk about an approach of not selling to people but selling with them. And I didn't really understand that because when you know prior to getting involved in B2B sales I always thought of well they're not selling with people, you are selling to them. You don't sell with somebody to buy a car, you sell them the car. But in sort of more technical B2B evaluations. This approach to not just walking into a meeting and I suppose there's a term for this now and just pitch slapping people left, right and center but actually listening attentively to their challenges and offering them a vehicle to communicate their challenges and your opinion about how you can help to the executive team via a structured, succinct, concise business case that touches on a lot of the elements that you're going to need to get an executive on board with your technology idea. And really the central principle to this is that even though you think you are the salesperson and you are winning them over with all of your miraculous pitches, the amount of time that the buyer spends in the room with you on a call live is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the overall sales cycle. They are selling internally on things that you talk about, things that you bring, content you share to convince a buying committee or members of their own company to adopt your solution. And they are doing that far more than you realize, but also that you can control. So you need to create something that enables them in those conversations, but can also tell the full story of what it is you're trying to do when you can't be in that, telling that story. And that's. And that sort of central principle and where I came across it, there's something.

That we teach during succession is very similar, same principle, we teach that, but the first thing we teach that precedes that, which is a key to what you're doing and is understanding that the person in front of you is a champion. Because if they're not a true champion, they don't have that ability to sell that for you. So you have to buy person. You go to somebody who has no influence internally, hasn't got the weight and the collateral and actually doesn't really are not invested, then that process doesn't work. However, if you get that person and you arm them to look good internally, you arm them with the right information on something they want, they will take that business case and sell forward. And I think that's the, that's the key that we. Of that project.

No, absolutely. I suppose that's also a mistake that I made early on is that I thought anybody could do anything if given the right information or the right perspective. I'd speak to the most junior people, try and get them so jazzed about the technology is like, oh, this is so cool. Until I realized pretty shockingly that cool doesn't unlock budget dollars. And so it's a lesson that I think everybody learns at some point when you get into this. But yeah, that was, that was one that I learned, I think at the right time, probably about four, four months in, I'd say. And I was like, oh, people Even though this thing is like really cool, they don't, it's not getting any budget. And I'm like okay, maybe, maybe it isn't about how cool the solution is. Maybe it's actually how well it solves a business problem and also who you entrust as the champion to convey that message in terms of their own standing in the organization, the internal capital that they have to actually play with.

Yeah, I think sometimes it's misunderstood. So just wanted to clarify. Well, I'll clarify, expand on something you said because quite rightly you could be talking to a junior person have no collapsible, no internal sway. However, that doesn't mean you should never sell to them.

Absolutely.

Sometimes you'll find that there's a senior VP of a large farmer does gone off and empowered a relatively junior scientist to come back with the information. And if you dismiss them because they're junior, you never would have learned that they've been empowered to source this because that VP is busy, he's like go find me for options and then they'll make that decision. And if you've empowered that person, treated them well, given them the details so they can look good, built this business case with them and then they sell that back internally. I guarantee none of the other reps have done that.

No, I would commit with money. Yeah, that's completely true. It's especially in, especially in the sort of segment of pharmaceutical organizations that I sell into. The org chart is incredibly misleading as to a person's seniority and their level of trust within a company. Because I mean in pharma it's also a similar structure that happens in other industries. But you have like experts or I see in other industries and then you have the people who co become managers and lead teams then they get the sort of director, junior director, VP title. But those experts, people who've been staff scientists for 20 years, they have something to say in this. And if you can get those people on side, that's a very very powerful influencer in your, in your deal. And you should always look in my opinion to, to multi thread with those people. You should look to get them involved because they, their opinion carries sway because they been heads down into the science for 20 years. They haven't had to worry about HR or managing people. They are scientists through and through. So they have, they have very, very powerful voices here.

Yeah, you mentioned another term we often use is multi thread. For anyone listening that isn't familiar with the term, it means to use multiple stakeholders in the same process and make sure. You're selling to all of them. And the reason for that is actually there's normally seven, on average, seven people involved in the buying process. So, you know, you want to be talking to as many as possible.

Absolutely. And I think the business case sort of, you know, turning this full circle here is a great vehicle for that. It is developing a narrative, maybe with one person or two person, and then using that to multi thread, because then you get validation on the business case from different points of view, maybe different departments, different seniority levels, different teams, whatever it is. Then when you do that, it actually makes your business case very, very, very strong because it's received that validation from outside of your little cocoon that you're building with your. Your one. Your one stakeholder.

Yeah. We love the phrase happy years.

Yeah.

And those people go in, they find somebody that thinks their technology is cool. They get happy years. They don't build the business case, they run away. They quit in their pipeline, and they wonder why no one speaks to them after that.

That was me for my first three months. I was like, oh, my God, everyone loves this thing.

I.

This is the easiest job in the world I've saw. I'm at a. I make a million dollars this year. No, done. Yeah. I got. I had a bad case of happy years for. For the first couple of months there.

And I suppose I think he's.

Oh, God.

I was an easy trait, I think for a salesperson to hold into. Because to be rejected as much as we are and still stay positive, we have to be very optimistic people. So getting happy is. It is easy and almost the defense mechanism, I think, sometimes.

100.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's. It's that one where you've had like a. You've had a not great quarter. Then something comes in in the last 10 days and you're like, yes, this, this. I could just add this to my pipeline. I'll close it, you know, next quarter or the quarter after that.

It's saved.

And then it's. You've just added it there instantly just to try and show you have some level of, you know, some level of something there, basically, to be like. It's almost like getting that sweet treat after going to the gym. It's like, oh, that was torture. Now I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get something to make up for that.

But we treat. Smell, rv, gym. Just treat.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I suppose one thing as well about the business case that we're talking about, it's very easy for people say, for example, you go and look at Maiden Azarala's book and go and look at his LinkedIn to view that business case as like a one point in time activity. Like oh yeah, I'll just, I just need to build the business case like these guys are talking about. Fantastic. That tick. No, it's not, it's not like that. It is something that you should be doing over the entire sales cycle as you learn more information as information maybe changes from what it was originally communicated as it is an ongoing activity that all touch points and all sales activities should roll up into and be strengthened by in fact just, just rattling off a couple of them here. Finding and framing a high cost, high priority problem. You do that in the business case multi threading that we've already talked about mutual steps to go live at a. By a compelling date or compelling event. And you might be asking like how do we find, how do you find all of this information and put it in the business case? It's because something very strange happens once you get a social contract to work on something like this with the person that you're working. It's that they actually want to give you information because you've locked them in socially to say, hey, we're going to work on this thing together. Then they are coming to the call with ideas they've drafted, made notes and updates in there before your calls. They're not working on it with you there. They've already done stuff. Because one of the things that I definitely hated about more old school sales methodologies and more prescriptive questioning like discovery. Oh, you need to fill all these fields in, ask all these questions is that sometimes you can get on a call with somebody and it feels like you walk them into a doctor's office. You're the doctor saying, is this wrong with you? Is this wrong with you? What's this? How does this feel? How does this look? How does it. And you've just questioned them for 10, 15 questions. But what you can do with the business case is say, hey, I need to learn a little bit about your business. And we're definitely going to work on that. Do you mind if I ask you a question about some of your priorities so we can frame this like. And then you've got the social contract of saying, hey, we've both agreed to develop this together. Now then sort of defense is almost a down. They don't think you're coming in there to question them like a police officer. They're more open and willing to share information and actually contribute to a deliverable it isn't just asking questions for the sake of it. You and them are working on an actual tangible deliverable that you both agreed will help their business. So that's. There's two points there as well. Like it helps discovery and it should be an ongoing activity throughout the sales cycle. At least that's, that's how it's used effectively, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And actually not all sales processes would that warrant something as complex as this. However, the principles behind discovery, aligning on things together and continuing to revalidate that through the sales process is still valid. And I think a lot of people don't do that. They see discovery as a phase in their pipeline. Well, I'm beyond that now. But you, you, you do discovery on every call. We had a great podcast recently with Saad on negotiation and he's an expert on the negotiator and he actually spoke about our negotiation. He's an entity staging called. It isn't at the end. I think this is something we miss. So it's the same as the business case that goes all the way through. The other point on that I really like is that you're working on it with them because there's a psychological thing that happens there where you said they want to give you information. I agree. But it also, you built this together. I'm now investing in this year. Just psychologically, this is partly built by me. If it doesn't win, I partly fail. So actually they have an investment in the process to drive a cruise with Eschat as well. And I think they really set you up for success in that relationship.

Absolutely. And I suppose like on the, on the business case as well, it doesn't just help you in your sales process at that given point in time to close the deal, it's much bigger than that. Firstly, when you transition that customer over, if they close hopefully to customer success or implementation or whatever the kind of department is called, you can give them a two page narrative of their challenges. What you've recommended as a solution maybe attended an implementation plan and everything that you've sort of worked on with them to customer success to go, oh, this can now inform our training program. Oh, this is going to. These high cost, high priority problems that we've outlined here are definitely what we're going to be working towards. Let me design a training program that gets these users onboarded to our core feature station that could actually solve for these problems. So it gives all of that then? Not just that from that perspective it enables marketing. Oh, these are the challenges that people in our space face. This is the problems that they're dealing with. We can learn a little bit about that opposition content to maybe, you know, put some stuff out in the market for that. But then also sales leaders, you want to know how your rep is doing at any particular sales activity. Look at the way they put a business case together. Do they have a challenge finding and framing a high cost problem? Do they have a trouble multi threading and getting more than one person to look at us? Do they have trouble outlining cost over a three year period like whatever it is. But any sales leader could look at one of those done by their rep at any given time and immediately I think tell where there's a skill gap that they might need to provide support or coaching on. So yeah, it's, it's more than just the sales process as well in my opinion.

Well, we're coming up on time here, so I think it's a great point to end on. But we'll ask you one last question. I'll be asked everyone, what do you wish reps would either do more of.

Or stop doing stop doing spray and pray emails. I hate it, Hate all of it. Terrible. Terribly structured in a lot of cases as well. So definitely stop doing spray and pray emails. Do more of reflect on the way that they run a sales process. I think, I think a lot of people, maybe due to resources or Q quarterly timelines and targets are often just in such an execution mindset, oh, I need to do this, I need to hit activity metrics, I need to do la la. They don't actually take the time to reflect on what is working for them, what isn't working for them and then actually reload for subsequent quarters and years. And I think honestly that's, that's one of the big things that I've been able to do at least early in my career that has helped me now because if I didn't take that step back and say, well just trying to repeat the founder's pitch isn't working for me because I'm not the founder and it's actually tripping me up in conversations, I would never have found this approach to selling and I, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't be the type of seller that I am now at all.

Well, thank you. And that's the end of what I'm going to term the British episode because we have no Harrison, a Welshman and an Englishman.

Awesome.

There's been no fights, so it weren't too bad, but thank you very much.

Awesome. Thank you.