[Sales] What's in it for the customer? With Brian Schneider

People these days don't like being sold to. I don't think anyone ever liked being sold to, but now especially because they could just ignore you. And if you're talking about what you're doing, they're not listening unless they see that you can solve a problem of interest to them. I mean, my favorite phrase that I like to say is with them, you know, what's in it for me? And unless you know what, what's in it for them and how it's going to help them hit their goals, it's totally irrelevant to them. Sweet.

We got a really good episode for you all here today. We have Brian Schneider. He's the VP of Business Development at ROSA and he's got 23 years experience selling in the life science industry and he's been at eight different startups, oftentimes as the first rep. So he really knows what it's like to start with nothing but really excited for what he has to say for us today.

Yeah, really excited to chat with Brian's down out on this episode. He's a great leader and a great sales guy, so he should have some really good insights for you.

And on this episode we're going to talk a lot about wifm. You'll hear. So what's in it for me? How do you put yourself in the customer's shoes? You don't be pitching. Brian's even going to get you guys with a real quick tip on what to use at a trade show or vendor show. So we've got a lot of good stuff in this episode. It's jam packed. Let's dive right in. Hey Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Hey Harrison. I'm really excited to be here. Great to see you, Nick.

Good to see you, Brian.

So you could join us.

Yeah.

All right, so as you know, we start off every episode and we ask the same question. Describe a crazy or funny story that happened to you in your career.

So I had this great time with a one call close where basically, you know, working in the life science is always there's this huge, you know, time for, for sales process. So this was where I was actually talking to the right person at the right time with the right problem and I had the right solution. And it just closed that one, one visit. The challenge was, is that I was in the immunoassay space and I was selling an instrument that had a higher cost per test than anything else that was out there. And we had some unique sales points that, you know, differentiated it from the other technology. The challenge was, was trying to get someone to invest in it. I had some big pharma companies in the translational space who wanted to use it for a diagnostic, but I didn't have any CROs and I didn't. And at the time there was no croes that saw any sponsors that needed it. So it was a chicken and egg problem. So I like, okay, so I need a CRO. I have some people that are interested now. But so I actually did a, you know, a Google search for CRO near me I think it was, and I found one and they were at a local vendor show. Like I'll just go and I'll see you know, what they're doing. And you know, because they're an assay development. So, so I went, I went to the show and I, you know, just like two typical vendor show. I, you know, I asked them what they're doing and they, you know, of course they, you know, spewed off their, you know, their, their pitch and I said, you know, hey, you know, I have a sponsor again using the language that's familiar with them who's interested in assay, you know, assay development. But they want to use our assay. But no CRO has it. You know, I'd like to come talk to you about, you know, you know, implementing that kind of asset. Sure, sure, come. So I was actually the, the head, the CEO, president of the CRO was at this, at this vendor fair. So instead of like, you know, exchanging contact information, we, I literally just pulled out my phone and said, hey, let's schedule a time to come talk. Let's get it on a calendar. So I go and I talk to them and he, he wants to pitch his show is his CRO to me. You know, it's a small operation. So we walk around and get a tour of all the instrumentation, what he's using. During this, this, this walk we run into, there's this back room that's got this cover over this big huge like box. I'm like, what is that? So he pulls off the sheet and it's, you know, it's a robot robotic system, you know, one of the, you know, one of the big names, let's just say. And he said, I said, what, what do you do? What are you using that for? Well, nothing right now. Well, what is your plans for it? Well, we're trying to do a multi analyte assay. You know, basically taking for, you know, doing assay on multiple different analytes from the same sample. And like, oh, well, why is it in a shroud in the back corner with, you know, like, in pieces like this. Well, we've had someone from the company here for two weeks trying to figure out how to build, make this thing work. Oh, okay. And like, well, what's. What's your sample size? And, you know, and he's like, oh, well, probably like 250 microliters. We'll. We'll use per sample to get the four allens. And then I said, well, what's this thing? How much does this cost? And they're like, yeah, it's like 350 grand, you know, and. And like, oh, it's not working. Like, how's that. Like, how. How's that impacting your business? And he described the, you know, the pain and, you know, how it was causing his problems. So, you know, we go back to his office and he sits down, he's like, okay, well, what do you. What are you here for? And I'm like, you know that robot there that you're struggling to get working? You know, we solve that problem with no programming. The program's already done four analytes, and the amount of pro. The amount of sample you need is only 25 microliters, like one tenth of what you're using now. Would you be interested in learning about it? Absolutely. How much does it cost? It's one tenth the cost of that. Get it to you for 25 grand. He literally like, give me a quote. I'll write out.

Give me a pen, give me a pen.

So actually, I emailed him. I got out of my car, typed up the quote, I emailed it to him, and I said, hey, I can come back tomorrow to pick up the check. And I literally came back the next day and he wrote that, gave me the check, was sitting there as his front door, and I was like, holy mackerel. I mean, how often does. I mean, I, like, I've been doing this for 23 years. It's just literally the only time that has happened. But the key was, was finding out what his problem was. You know, I had a whole lot of unique sales points about this, this instrument. You know, consistency and reproducibility, you know, small, you know, small volume, size. But we were getting hammered on the cost per test because that's what everyone wanted to talk about.

It sounds like in the room as well. The key was not just you listening to the customer is the curiosity.

Right?

Because if you'd have gone into the room, right, I'm going to go in, I'm going to sales pitch, I'm going to do our points, you wouldn't have asked what's the crazy box in the corner?

Yeah, absolutely.

Curiosity leads you to that question.

Yes. Yeah, I mean it's a hunger. You have to have a hunger for what they're doing, what their goals are, what their plans are and what's getting in front of the what's, what's, what's challenging, like what's blocking them from getting there. And until you have that conversation, because there's going to be a need for change, right? It always comes down to, you know that you have to defeat the status quo. Otherwise you're just going to be like, there's going to be no interest in changing. And that only happens through questioning. You have to understand where they're coming from. And I've just seen so much of people going to pitch. People these days don't like being sold to. I don't think anyone ever liked being sold to. But now especially because they could just ignore you. And if you're talking about what you're doing, they're not listening unless they see that you can solve a problem of interest to them. I mean, my favorite phrase that I like to say is wifm. You know, what's in it for me? And unless you know what, what's in it for them and how it's going to help them hit their goals, it's totally irrelevant to them.

We're going to have a, hopefully a wide listenership of people from all over the world. And if a experienced US based rep saying that people don't want to be sold to, you can guarantee that people in the UK and Europe definitely don't want to be sold to because the US is the most open. Like the, the British are so against it. When someone says, can I help you in a shop? We have like an allergic reaction. It's like, well, no, you can't help me get out my way.

Right.

So if you guys are saying it too, this is a real problem that we need to make sure we address in our process.

I was going to say I heard a great quote once. It was people hate being sold to, but they love to buy. So it's like, how can you, how can you help somebody feel like they are buying and not being sold to?

Yeah, and, and, and it all comes out the question. I was just at a conference recently and I was just surprised. Like I'm walking the, walking down the aisles. First of all, most everyone is behind their desk. Some of them of course got, got drinks. You know, they got their laptop open, looking at their Phone or they're talking to their, you know, their, their colleagues. And then I would, so then I would go up and I would ask, what are you doing? And then they would literally go into their pitch and vomit it and out, like, see what would stick. And I'm like, do you even know if I'm, you know, where's the, where's the qualifying question? Where's the interest generating question? How do you know it's even relevant to me or what?

Can you touch on that? Can you touch on that? Because you did this really well. I think it talked to a bunch of people at Synthego, which is when you're at a vendor show, like, have that question ready to go, right? So instead of your pitch, when somebody asks what you do, you, I mean, you had a, you had a couple of really good ones that, that you, that you shared.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty straightforward. I mean, it depends on what you're selling. But you want to find something, a question that, you know, generates an interest and, and also qualifies them. You know, hey, you know, I'm at cell biology, right? So, you know, what kind of cells do you work? Just be curious, you know, hey, yeah, she. Or cell biology, what kind of cells do you work? And then, you know, oh, yo, I don't, I do bioinformatics or I do blah. I'm like, okay, well that's great. Well, you know, really, you know, enjoy the rest of your show and have a good time. They're not in my market. Why even bother talking to them? Your job is to get in front of as many people that hit your market. You know, if they immediately ask them like, hey, you know, I help salespeople build revenue, giving them time, tested processes. And you know, if they, if they knew that right away, they wouldn't go into this huge long pitch about their product because first of all, they should immediately say, hey, can I, you know, hey, this is not the time. I got, I got people to go talk to, to bring it in or, you know, you know, can we schedule a time to talk? Because I'm curious about what you have to say. I also, you know, would go at a quiet time, so if someone else came up, I said, hey, you know what? You know, it'd be better if you go talk to the scientist there because I'm not going to buy your product. Sometimes they, sometimes they would stop and go and talk to them. Other times they, they would keep talking to me and I'm like, I'm not, you know, I'M not your reason for being here. You know, it's very expensive to take you to a show and have you sit in this booth. Both your travel time, the time away from the, you know, the you are selling. I mean, that was another thing I learned recently was that, you know, really had an epiphany about, was about vendor shows. Salespeople really shouldn't be going to these things. It's really, it's a marketing function. It's a marketing function. I mean you're basically trying to understand, I mean it's a great opportunity for the marketing team to ask questions and see what resonates so that they can create the literature and the components for sales. I mean it's, it's basically a market qualified lead that you come out of a show. Now if you're a salesperson at a show, I mean, because this happens so often in our space, you know, have an interest generating question, you know, find out what their, what their goals are. Well, okay, so you know, what kind of cells you in, you know, what are you doing about, you know, how like, how like what are you trying to accomplish? You know, most scientists want to get data for something, right? So find out what their data, like, what kind of data they need, what do they need for their next publication, what do they need for the next grant. I mean that's the kind of question that people love to talk about. And then you'll immediately see if they have a, you know, a fit for you and then you can ask more relevant questions about like the problem that you solve. So hopefully you know what that is. Otherwise you're really, you know, you're really got a problem. I mean, you definitely know, right?

Which is which, which I think that's a big one though. It's understanding the problem or the challenge you solve and also how you might do it differently than how they're doing it today. Yeah, I, I remember I was also at a show and I was talking to somebody, I said, hey, you know, tell me about the, you know, whatever it was, their product that they had and immediately all the products, all the specs, everything about it, I'm like, I don't know like half of what, but like, can you explain, like how would people do it today? Like if they didn't have your box, what would they be doing? And now with your box, how is it better? And it was actually like really hard for them to have that discussion. But if you're able to have that dialogue, you can take something that is very complex with all the capabilities features and functions and be able to easily explain it to somebody that is just simply asking a question, wants to know how it can be used in their own workflows.

Okay, what's blocking you? Well, how do you do it now? What is limiting you? What are the challenges of doing it that way? And then if you know anything about the space, you're like, hey, I hear this, this and this. Are these problems you're hearing or is it something completely different? So then you're bringing them insights that they might not have thought about. Okay, so what is the problem with all this manual pipetting? How is that impacting your ability to repeat this experiment? Or get with the, get the model that you need or the data that you need? You know, how, you know, how much time are you spending doing. My favorite conversation with someone is like, how long do you expect to take, you know, to make this cell model? And they always say like two weeks or three weeks. Then I joke and I'm like, yeah, when I was in the lab, what I realized was, is that I always take the amount of time that it's going to, I think it's going to take, I double it and then move it to the next level of time. So if I think it's going to take, you know, two weeks, it's actually going to take four months. And every month that finds out. Incredibly fun. Oh yeah, that's.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Resonate with. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. If you could do us a quick favor and share it with someone you know, it would mean the world to us. If you want to up level your sales skills or just network with other life science sales reps or check out the succession community at Succession Bio join. Okay, now back to the show. One thing that you mentioned as well, which is like, how do you identify these problems? And I think what a lot of sales reps do, especially when they join a new company, is they expect those like, problems to be predefined and come to them from product or come to them from marketing and they kind of want this stuff just handed to them on a platter. And I know you're a big proponent of this, but leverage the experience you have, right? Either from previous roles or from like actually your conversations, right? If you go out and you have 10, 15, 20 different conversations, you have probably now talked to more people having this problem or a couple of these problems than any of the other, you know, potential customers that you might have. So it's like, how can you, how do you Consolidate all of those insights that you have and then pull that information out from the customer that you're talking to.

So what I do is, is that usually when I join there's at least some customers. Even when it's pre launch, you know, it's hopefully you've at least been talking to somebody who's expressed interest in this. Go and talk to them, ask them like, what is the, you know, what do they see themselves solving with this? How does it help them? You know, I have a list of golden questions and they, they always come back to and then have them describe it. Like how describe this technology to somebody else. And that is the, those are the key things that then you just take those and compile them and those are what you say to new customers.

So I think that's a really good point about having these golden questions that you're going to ask the people to gain insights for your customers, for your new customers. Is there a certain level of like relationship you need with that person to be able to ask it or do you find any pushback or are people really open to just sharing this?

I mean, you want to bring value to everyone you talk to. So oftentimes I engage with them saying, hey, you know, this is a new product or, or we're thinking we're looking at how, improving our relationships with our clients. I love to ask you how you're using this to find out how we can work with you better. Just about everyone wants to, you know, is willing. If they really like what you're doing or have interest in making you better, then they'll talk to you. This is how I had to start this conversation, like every new role. So I don't have a problem with that now. Is there going to be people that don't respond? Yes, of course. Just like everything else, you know, a third, a third and a third, you know, the third of the people you ask this question to are just going to say no. And then, you know, a third of them will say yes. And then there's that third in the middle that you have the ability to control, you know, how they respond. And I think that that is the key to this. It's just come with the, again that curiosity, you know, hey, I want to help, you know, again, it's what's in it for them. And it's like, well, you or you have the chance, like we're working on making this product better. Here's your chance to help us improve it. People love to give feedback, you know, they are, everyone's got Ideas about how to improve every product ever sold. So most people are willing to talk to it. So, you know, I don't think that having, like, I have had, like, I've worked at companies where, you know, hey, I have the relationship. Like, I like a technical support person or the installer or like, I have a relationship with them. I'll reach out to them and introduce you. Inevitably, what happens is they get too busy to do that. And then after like a month of me hanging like, bang, like annoying them to schedule, like, introduce me, I'm like, hey, I'm just going to reach out. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. And then that's how I approach it. Like, this is my approach, you know, just want to work with you. In another case, you know, I had someone else reach out for me and they're like, oh, we're curious if you have any more things that you want to buy. I'm like, that's not what I want to talk to. I don't want to talk. I don't want to sell them anything. I want to find out their experiences and why they'd like to work with us so I can go sell, find more people like them, you know, and then, you know, ideal customer profile is so important. You know, everybody's, you know, I like, oh, you should be able to sell to anybody. Just go talk to them. You know, it'll sell itself. And.

Our technology is so good, it sells itself.

And I'm like, what? No, it doesn't. It doesn't sell itself. You have to find out what the status quo is and you have to convince them that they're. That the way they're doing it now, the old way is problematic. And what is the difference between the old way and the new way is that is, is what's going to motivate them, you know, and then of course, you know, it always comes down to not only the positive impacts, but the negative impacts. You know, kind of important, you know, I think he got a Nobel prize for pointing out that the negative impacts of the negative impacts have 2x the emotional impact than the positive gains. But if you do both, then it's 3x then just the positive. So this is where it's really important to.

Loss aversion, right?

Yeah, Loss aversion. The loss aversion and prospect theory.

Yes.

I don't just make this stuff up. I've heard it over and over again from multiple different trainers.

Well, one of the things that you've talked about, you talked about the consequences of not changing, right? Those, those Negative consequences. Right. The. The downsides of not making a change. So how do you. How do you ask that question where it's like, you know, hey, how does this impact you? You know, what happens if you don't solve this? But how do you. How do you ask that in a non sort of salesy way? Because if I were to ask that to somebody, they're just trying to sell me something. Right. Like, how do you pull that out of somebody and how do you get them to give you that without. Without it coming across as, you know, maybe. Maybe rude or criticizing the way they're doing something today?

Yeah. So first of all, you know, I try to put it in terms of this is the way other people are doing it. You know, scientists do it. You know, I talk to people in the space, and this is what I hear they're doing. This is the challenge when, you know, they do it this way and this leads to this, this and this, you know, so one of the examples I did with, you know, crispr editing, which was one of the challenges with crispr editing, is, is that everyone thinks it's going to happen the first time. And when they go out and they. With all the off modifications, they'll pick a model they want to try, and then it won't work. And then they'll have to try it again and it won't work. And then they try it again. The third time it averages is like seven times to try to get it. So what would happen in your, your lab if you went three months, like three tries, and you didn't get a result? What would that. What would that happen to you? And they're like, yeah, I. I have to go find another lab, you know, or I, I literally had a PI. Like, you know, if you had a postdoc or grad student, you tried this three times and it didn't work, what would happen to them? Like, I, I'd asked them to go find another job. They literally said that to me. And I'm like, all right, you know.

Extreme seems a bit extreme, but just knowing that the average is seven seems a bit extreme to kick somebody out after three. But yeah, yeah.

So you find out how they're approaching it. You know, hey, I'm using plasmids, or, you know, I'm doing this methodology. And then I say, oh, you know, when I, when I talk to people that do this, I hear this. How. How is it impacting you? You know, this challenge? You know, and, and so you're talking.

It like a broad, like, hey, from the people that I've talked to, these are the things I'm hearing. Does this resonate? So it's less of a very direct, you know, I'm going to just dig into you and your exact workflow and what you might be doing wrong. You're taking, hey, when I talk to a bunch of people, typically when they work with plasmids to do their editing, they're worried about these downstream implications.

Yeah. And then, then you change the front and once you work on the negative impacts and then, you know, then you come back with, okay, well there are. I. But I have been working with some people that have tried this, you know, and this is what they get from that. How would that, you know, how would that benefit you?

You know, the other end.

Right.

Yeah. Now you're looking at the positive end. So you uncovered what happens if they don't solve the problem. And then you're also getting them to think forward into the future of what their future will look like when they do solve it.

Yeah. And you don't say, you know, hey, you're doing it wrong. You know, you should try it this way. You say, hey, you know, I found people that are doing, you know, who are doing it a different way. Right. And this is the result. They get the question, like, if I get someone to say, I hadn't thought of that or I didn't know about that, then I know, I, like, I have their attention. And then I can say, hey, would you like to learn more about that or is this of no interest? And then, you know, if, if they have, you know, yeah, I'd like to learn more about that. Okay, well, you know, if it's at a vendor fair, it's okay, well, let's schedule a time to talk about it, you know, because, you know, you probably have to get off to, you know, another, another, another call. And I'd really like to delve into, you know, how this is impacting your work, how this can help you. So let's just, you know, get out of calendar invite. I've actually scheduled things like I'm at a vendor fair, like a big conferences, and I literally would schedule it for other teammates in California. I'm like, they'll figure out a way, let's put it tentatively on the calendar. And if it doesn't work out, you know, you can always cheat. It's always easier to change an appointment than it is to like, re. Engage somebody and you know, and, and have that, you know, oh, you know, remind them why, like, okay, I must have, I Must have thought this was really important to actually put it on my calendar. And if they don't want, if they're not willing to put it on their calendar, then you know that it's not, it's not real. They're just, it's just smoking beers and then you just not have to waste your time.

Awesome. Well, we're coming up towards the end here and I want to wrap it up with one last question for you, Brian. Can you help provide the listeners prospecting tip, maybe a discovery tip or a closing tip, best practice that they can use to improve their sales skills?

Oh, wow. Where, where do I start? I think it's always come back. Like I think I mentioned it earlier today, the biggest tip is, is put yourself in their shoes and find out what's the whiff for them, you know, and, and have a hunger to understand that, you know, there's no, I mean there's no real, you know, script on what questions to ask. But when you're sitting there talking to somebody, true discovery is to understand, to listen. Not just to figure out what you're going to ask next, but listen to understand what it's. Have enough empathy to be in their shoes. Because people don't buy for your reasons. They could give a crap about what you think. What they want to know is they buy for their reasons. So find out what the reasons are that are like keeping them from getting what they want done. And I think that, that, that kind of change in perspective. You know, people talk about, you know, consultative selling and, but that's what it's really about, you know, you know, having the empathy to put in your shoe, put them in, you know, put yourself in those shoes. But then have the drive to ask them that challenging question, you know, to say, well, this is what I see and give them that insight and give them back.

Awesome. Yeah. I think if any, if every seller could think more about what their customer cares about and make their value prop their positioning relatable to what that person cares about, I think the whole sales community would become much better and more well respected.

Yeah, I mean, I know it's hard. It's hard because you know, you're in front of a client and you, you're really excited about your, your, your product, your technology and you want to share the knowledge, you want to let people know. But that's selling that like you're selling, you're, you're pitching and that's, Customers don't like that. I, I was at a networking event and I was telling, you know, I was talking to scientists and I'm like, well, what's the most annoying thing about salespeople? They're like, well, they pitch me. You know, they come in and they just start talking and I'm like, you know, they're not asking you questions. And they're like, no. And like, this is what I'm here for. I mean, this is, you know, have a list of questions. I mean, every. Even now, you know, when I go talk to a client, I have a list of questions that I want to ask. It might not necessarily. I might not get to them all, but at least it's. It gets that, you know, that tension out of my mind about. Well, these are the things that I want to know. So my subconscious is at least folk, you know, thinking about that while they're talking. Like, okay, so, you know, clearly I want to focus in on what those problems are. You know, what is that? What is. What is limitings from, from them hitting their goals, what are their plans for the, you know, how they're going to get their data, what are they being measured on? And then this is how you position yourself because again, if it's not relevant to their mission and what they're trying to do, it's just. They're just not going to be paying attention. One of my favorite things to do at succession events is to ask people who their ideal customer profile is. First of all, you. You're like, oh, I didn't think. I, I didn't. I don't know who my ideal customer profile is. Like, okay, well, then you got to figure out a way to do that. But then, you know, let me know so that if I'm talking to somebody and they have that problem, I can say, hey, you know what I can value add to you, you know, refer them to you, even though I'm not going to get anything out of it. You know, again, it's. It comes back to do good, help others, and maybe make some money out of it. I mean, that's why I do this.

Yep. Love it. Well, I think it's a perfect way to, to wrap it up here. This has been a great episode. Thank you, Brian, for coming on and chatting with us and everybody. Remember, with them.

With them. Yes, with them.

All right, see you, Brian.