Sound Liberation: Joe Williams on Black Artistry, Legacy & Belonging in Concert Music

Welcome back to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Welcome back to The Piano Pod, everyone, and welcome to the final month of Season 6. We only have 2 more episodes to go, and what a remarkable season this has been. This season, our theme has been Creativity and Connection, featuring artists, educators, composers, and visionaries who are using their artistry to connect people, challenge perspectives, and expand what classical and contemporary concert music can look like today. It has also been a season of growth for The Piano Pod with the show itself, and this past October, we stepped beyond our comfort zone and produced our very first live event at Mannes Prep at Stiefel Hall, bringing together live performance, onstage conversation, and community in one space. It was both exhilarating and a huge learning experience, and we hope to continue expanding into more live events and collaborations in the new season ahead. And as we enter June and celebrate Juneteenth month, it has become a tradition on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song to dedicate this time to highlighting Black artists and honoring the profound legacy, creativity, and ongoing contributions of Black musicians within classical and contemporary concert music. To close out the season, we are featuring two extraordinary artists whose work continues to reshape and expand the concert music landscape: composer and pianist Joe Williams and concert pianist David Barry. Today's guest is composer, pianist, educator, curator, and what he calls a sound liberator, Joe Williams. Currently pursuing a PhD in composition at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa, Joe moves fluidly across performance, scholarship, composition, education, and advocacy. From championing the music of Black composers including Florence Price, Betty Jackson King, Maria Thompson Corley, Brian Raphael Nabors, and James Lee III, to producing films honoring artists like William Chapman Yahoo, Joe's work is deeply rooted in preservation, liberation, and human connection. In this special conversation, we explore Black artistry and legacy, the meaning of representation and belonging in concert music, improvisation and composition, and ancestral responsibility, the transformative power of education, and how music can become a form of liberation. And before we begin, if you are enjoying these conversations, be sure to hit subscribe on YouTube and follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on your favorite podcast platform. Your support truly helps independent arts media like this continue to grow and reach more listeners around the world. This is Season 6, Episode 19 of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Joe Williams on Black artistry, legacy, belonging in classical music. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Joe, welcome to The Piano Pod. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

We actually met last year at Juneteenth LP, uh, 10th anniversary at Joe's Pub here in New York. I remember sitting there and spotting you almost right away, and you were with Leah Clayborne, who I had also had her on the show last season. And of course, the two of you are connected through projects like Arise and Shine, and which we're going to talk about. But by the way, where are you joining us from today?

I'm joining you all from Honolulu, Hawaii.

Oh wow, yay! And then you attend school there, no?

I do. I'm pursuing my PhD in composition here.

Oh wow, yeah, wow, how lovely. Do you like being on the island of Hawaii?

It's a beautiful place to be. I mean, the culture, the openness, the food, the beach, the mountains, the hiking. I mean, what's not to love? But yeah, of course, not much time to, to do the fun stuff.

That's, that's why you're busy composing. But, uh, how long do you, uh, are you there already? Like, is this your like second, third year?

This is my first year here.

First year?

Oh, that's right.

Yeah. Okay, great. Anyways, going back to our conversation, so Dr. Nenna Ogwuoso, who is the founder of the Juneteenth LP, she was like encouraging me to reach out to you multiple times, and especially because of the work you're doing to help reshape this classical music landscape through your performance, curation, and composition. So, and you move across so many spaces as a composer, pianist, and what you call a sound liberator.

Exactly.

Yeah, tell us, what do, uh, what does that mean?

Well, I'm fortunate enough to wear many hats, and I was thinking about a term that could be inclusive of all the modalities and disciplines that I want to take up space in. And, you know, when I think about calling myself a composer, that sounds so pretentious. You know, I'm trying to get away from the ego, right? So pianist, you know, I can't really play that well, so I don't really like calling myself pianist, right? You know, I just thought, okay, what's the core thing that I'm doing in everything? Curation, scholarship, performance. And I was thinking to myself, you know, my kuleana, or my responsibility, is really to free people through my art, right? And I think a lot of musicians hold similar philosophies, but I really wanted to just anchor myself in ancestral truth and responsibility. Community. So at my best, yeah, I liberate sound for folks. I preserve histories and I free folks up.

Wow, great, wonderful. That's exactly what you're doing through music and teaching and curation. So if you had to define your artistic identity, I mean, maybe you already explained, but your passion and mission in in a few sentences, what would you say?

My passion and mission. Wow.

Right now at this moment of your life, 2026.

I'm just really passionate about connecting with folks. The path of a musician can be really solitary as we refine our crafts, solitary confinement in the practice room. And then we have to switch when we get to the concert stage and we have to be suddenly open-hearted. But how do we get to that point when, you know, we're not listening to people's stories and making deep eye contact and walking alongside them and journeying other paths? So, you know, right now I'm really passionate about human connection and having the fortune to travel different places, live with different communities. That's always something that could go deeper in our lives that I hope all my students have the chance to live like that. So that's number one. Number two, it's more artistic. It's understanding that the spaces I occupy, maybe there's not many folks who have similar background as me and they're not used to seeing someone like me being free in public, right? I think American society especially doesn't foster enough creativity and expression of Black men, queer Black men. You know, we don't see a lot of representation in all facets of society, but especially classical music. So I understand that just me coming up to a space even before I play a note there's a set of preconceived notions. And yeah, I kind of find a lot of joy in subverting those and just, you know, showing up with my tats and showing up with whatever I feel like wearing and just throwing down a, you know, Scarlatti Sonata, throwing it down and seeing people gag, you know what I'm saying?

That is so cool. That is so cool. That's the way to play Scarlatti, especially.

Why not?

Why not? Okay, so let's talk about your recent, right? So congrats on the recent award, uh, winning the Vanguard Award for Classical Innovation and Community Impact, an honor that speaks not only to your work but as an artist, but to your impact as an educator and advocate. Can you tell us a bit about this award?

Yeah, so Chavashia Arts Conservatory, actually all the way in Florida, is doing some amazing community music education work in reaching folks who are passionate about pursuing music education, And I really respect people who commit to addressing this barrier in real ways. So the founder, Patrisse, she's a wonderful, wonderful pedagogue and violinist. She just decided she's not going to wait for the industry to recognize other people's contributions. She's just going to start awarding folks. This is how Black women do. They just don't— they don't wait for change. They just like, let me just let me just start doing it myself. Y'all could catch up later. So to have her recognition, someone who's been doing this for so many decades at such a high level of excellence, that's huge. That's huge alone. And, you know, classical innovation, community impact. Wow. That's Do I really do that? You know, but when you hear that from someone you respect, from an elder in your community, that keeps you on that path. You know, that's very motivating to continue in that direction, even though in my humble viewpoint, like, no, there's tons of other people who've done more to fix this cluster F of a situation we're all in, right? But yeah. Just to share from my heart, it was, it was really, really one of the greatest honors I could receive, really.

Where in Florida specifically?

Was it Miami, or where is that town in Florida? I mean, between you and me, that state should just be obliterated off the map. There's a bunch of crazies in Florida doing the Lord's work. I believe Tallahassee.

Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, great, great. Yeah. So now moving on to the next. In an article that I read by the University of Hawaii at Manoa Department of Music, you described this recognition as carrying a kind of professional and ancestral obligation. I'd like to hear you expand on that. What does that sense of responsibility actually, actually feel like for you right now?

I think in the music world, we're used to talking about lineage when it comes to pedagogy, right? Like, oh, I'm the grandson of Rachmaninoff because my teacher's teacher studied with Rachmaninoff, right? And in the field of music education, we're also used to naming certain pedagogies after pioneers, right? Like the Kodaly method, right? Just as an example. So I thought to myself, like, wow, what is, what is the equivalent within the Black community? Because in the field of music education, I can't really think of any standard methods attributed to Black music educators, right? So what, What if receiving this award means that now I have to think about what is the Patrice method? Or what if after being mentored by Francis Walker, the pioneering pianist, what if, what if I now teach in the Francis method? Whoa, that's gonna take a lot of work to institutionalize, right? And it's gonna take a lot of me just like, talking about it endlessly to everyone I see. So that's what I mean by responsibility, because there is a way for figures to live on historically, but it takes constant effort and advocacy to make sure that happens, right? And the ancestral part really is the lineage that I was talking about, just being able to trace almost biblically being able to trace where you're coming from and where your ideas are coming from. And, you know, obviously in an academic environment there's ways to cite that, but I think even what we're doing now conversationally is important too.

Sure. Oh, then speaking of that, I want to talk— start with your education like educational part of it, like educator part of hat that you wear, right? Because you mentioned about method and then basically lineage and pedigree, like classical music especially is all about that. And what's— especially as a person who is also not only a Black artist but also an advocate, so what does that look like? I'm hearing this method called Floyd method. Is that something that you are advocating for? If so, I would love to know what this method is.

Sure. So Patrice Floyd, who I mentioned earlier, uh, she has a way of teaching kids in a way that's very culturally responsive and in a way that's familiar, uh, in a way that they can adapt quickly and change. So I believe authenticity is the best approach we could take into the classroom. And I think it not only builds rapport, but it motivates students to show up as themselves. And that already takes down a huge barrier. But for me, I'm just really lucky because I've, I've had so many people in my life come and model Black excellence. And for our listeners who are not familiar with this concept, This is a standard like you've never known. Come here, baby, that don't look right. Let me fix it. I mean, that's Black excellence. And it's also being a president at Harvard University. You know what I'm saying? So it's very integrated into every facet of your life, not just how you're showing up to an assigned skill, right? It's a way of being. It's like a whole philosophical construct. And we celebrate progress as a community by underlining moments of Black excellence and by remembering Black history. And I think that's really important. And that concept alone can transform the entire field of classical music because, yeah, I don't know, Black history is not just for February, right? So there's just lots of ways that we can remember through our art. All about remembering and honoring and bringing folks into the space. I always think about Maya Angelou, how she talked about having rainbows in her cloud, and, you know, everyone who's ever been nice to her. It doesn't matter the background, you know, gay or straight or Black or white or yellow or anything, you know, she brings all those people who whoever showed her love. And she brings those people with her when she does all the great things that she's ever done. And they're with her. They're with her in that space. So that's what I call ancestral attunement. And, you know, we don't always have the privilege to have a posse around us. So when I play my concerti and when I play my sonatas, there's lots of people with me. And I hold those memories really Close.

You recently gave a solo recital at the University of Hawaii performing the piano works of Betty Jackson King and Richard Thompson, and across your work more broadly, you've been deeply engaged with composers like Maria Thompson Corley, and I interviewed her and she's amazing. And her solo piano piece, especially Lucid Dreaming, is one of my favorites. And then James Lee III, and then Brian Raphael Nabors.

And yes, and his birthday is today, by the way.

Oh really?

Hey, happy birthday, Mr. Nabors.

And so you— through premieres and performances. So these are the composers that we still do not hear nearly enough in mainstream concert spaces. Yet their music is—

Yes, and to your point, they're also quite prolific.

They are.

I mean, let's go through each one who you mentioned, right?

Please.

Neighbors, 3 piano sonatas so far and a number of other solo piano works. Not to mention chamber music that features the piano, even a piano trio. I mean, the repertoire lists are vast, and I'm just so proud to see my colleagues rise. Maria Thompson Corley, just a phenomenal pianist-composer. It's always nice to play music that's idiomatic, right? And she's written a lot that's just comfortable on the fingers to play. James Lee III premiered his album for the young at heart, and Wow, a dozen substantial solo piano works and a piano concerto, chamber music again. So just to your point, yeah, not nearly integrated enough into our programs. And, you know, we have to remember that composers, any living composer is depending on a commission for our livelihood. So what we know about opportunities and equity in this country is that, you know, presenters really need to be intentional about including us in programming as well, so.

Yeah. And so, the recent recital with pieces by Betty Jackson King and Richard Thompson, tell us a little bit more about their works and the— what was the entire program like?

Oh, thank you for that. So, I did have a chance to record Richard Thompson's vocal works. With my good sister Elena Lewis. And that really opened up more interest into his other music. So I thought, okay, let's look at the solo piano works. And, you know, I had a chance to hear them recorded by the composer himself. I had a chance to hear them recorded by another wonderful pianist, Kim Davenport. And I said, okay, let me record and perform these as well because they're so beautiful and how they blend jazz idioms, the classical formalism. And then I said, well, that's half of a recital. What, what else can we add to supplement that? Maybe the works of Betty Jackson King. So she also kind of liked jazz, but she was more influenced by modernism, impressionism. She was a great neoclassicist as well. I mean, she just took all of her interests and put them all together to make a beautiful, unique language. And so the two of those composers' works together, that's a full recital. One of them is with us, one of them is with us in another way, right? So there's historical Black composers to honor, there's living Black composers to honor. Wow. And I learned so much from this experience. Of just juxtaposing two people with just really individual voices and being able to share that with an audience that, yeah, no one in the audience had heard any of their music before. And I think just the idea that, you know, especially in an academic environment, like, wow, I've been teaching for many years, I have many degrees, but this student just played music at a high level that I never knew. You know, I think that sends a message to our academic community. And I would encourage any researcher or graduate student to keep pursuing really niche avenues of music making that represent your culture, just to really make a message that there's lots more work that we could be doing in our scholarship.

Oh, definitely. Not only the, you know, Black history, but also in the— I think we need to explore more Asian composers, Asian music in the industry, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I absolutely agree. And, you know, I'm so lucky because I am attending university, which is nationally regarded as let's say just the central hub for Asian Pacific and Asian American music scholarship. So, wow. All of my colleagues are really passionate and invested in this kuleana of highlighting Asian and Asian American and Pacific composers as well.

Wow. Yeah. We'll come back to that because I'm very curious. So, but let's just see, you know, since we talked about showcasing, highlighting excellence, excellency, you know, especially the particularly the Black composers, I want to know also more about the storytelling part. When you put together recitals centered entirely on Black composers, it's not just programming. It's a message or it's a storytelling preservation. Like preservation you mentioned, and then especially in the way that you also produce films highlighting figures like William Chapman Nyaho and Maxine Mims and then Maya Angelou. So tell us more about these films. I'm just curious, and how they came about, and then what drew you to spotlight figures like, like them, especially Dr. Nyaho. I'm trying to book him for interview, but he's so busy. Yes.

Busy guy. Wonderful, wonderful soul, beautiful spirit. And oh my goodness, he has contributed so much to moving the needle toward honoring Blackness, honoring African-ness. His multi-volume Oxford publication of piano music by composers of African descent his multiple recordings that accompany those materials, and his endless just— I mean, there's some scholars that just, okay, here's my scholarship. But he is just active in master classes and recitals still. I don't even know how he balances all of this. It's wonderful. And, you know, the thing that we all love about Uncle Nyaho is that the way he treats people is always from the heart. You know, he's always modeling love. And, you know, there's no ego with this guy. So, you know, in my relationship with him, I had to say, okay, here's my opportunity to produce. Can we do a portrait documentary about this man, this beautiful man who's given us all so much? His warmth, his spirit, his scholarship, his advocacy. So that was that film, and, you know, the producing part of my work started in the pandemic as many of us adjusted to different ways of sharing art given our circumstances, right? So instead of recitals, I worked with videographer to highlight different folks whose stories needed to be told. And for this film with Nyaho, I was really, really happy to have the chance to invite contributors such as another wonderful African composer, Fred O. Bangani. Wow. Lots of other folks who wanted to really spell out why, why Nyaho is a living legend and what he has done. So intergenerational conversations, I think, are really important as well for folks to see modeled on the screen. And yeah, I just, again, I just feel so honored and so lucky to even be able to have a conversation with him. And I really hope that he can appear on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with you, have the same opportunity as well.

Yes, that would be great. But so it— did it become like a documentary or like a short film?

So yeah, short film. What is the length? If I remember, I think it's about a half hour.

Really? Wow. Is it available to watch or listen?

Yeah, we're trying to get some rights negotiated so that it could be shared with the broader public now. Would you be open to talking about your love for music? My love for music? Yes! Tell me how this started. I grew up in a family you know, from the earliest times. And, you know, I had an elder sister, Nyamapo, who was playing the piano. So I think all I know is that I just really wanted to imitate her. So my love for music started really early on. I think it's just because I was surrounded by it all.

You are so multi-talented, you can even produce a film like that. That's great. I was listening to your arrangement of "Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child" for voice and piano, sung by Kenneth Overton and piano by Dr. Elizabeth Hill. And what really stayed with me was the sense of restraint and clarity. It felt intentional, almost like you were carving space into the sound with a harmony language that hints at jazz inflections and extended sonorities and long cluster-like, you know, textures on the Piano Pod, obviously. And then so What have you been most focused on in your musical language lately?

Thank you, Yukimi. Well, that particular arrangement of African American spiritual, you know, I'm a descendant of, you know, enslaved Africans, right? So the genre of spirituals is always going to be near and dear to my heart. And that arrangement originally just started as an improvisation that me and a wonderful, wonderful, incredible tenor named Joshua Stewart performed for a radio broadcast. So, you know, he's introducing his selections and says, "Our next arrangement is by Joe Williams." And I'm like looking at him and I'm like, but but we're doing jazz. This isn't a written arrangement. We're just improvising. So, you know, when he said that, I took it seriously. Okay, so in just a couple seconds, I said, okay, whatever I play now, it has to be preserved because he called it an arrangement. So I used as like simple and refined texture as I could, and I just, you know, I wanted to create something honest but also in my own voice. So I inflected a lot of jazz in. And also French Impressionism in the arrangement that you heard. And it turned out really nice. And I got word from my really good friend Kenny Overton, just an incredible human being, beautiful baritone. And he said, oh, I'm making an album with Dr. Elizabeth Hill. And she is just the bomb diggity, the bomb.com. She can play and throw it down on that keyboard, let me tell you. So these are two artists that I respect so dearly, and I was so fortunate that they were interested in this arrangement, which, yeah, after writing it all down, I thought, oh, I always need to start my compositions with improvisation because it's coming from a place that's undiluted, and I really didn't have to edit much of what I originally conceived because in the spirit of improvisation, there's so much freshness, and I'm already subconsciously pulling from lots of different influences. I think composers, especially contemporary composers who work maybe more in the avant-garde side of the tradition, we can over-intellectualize music so much to the fact— to the extent that maybe people don't even want to hear it because it's not even melodic. It's too cerebral. You know, it's mathematical, you could even call it, you know, and I am a proponent for experimentation, okay? I'm not saying just let's just be conservative and write tonal music. But I think that using improvisation as the starting point can really result in more honest music making, you know? All the twists and turns that come, all of the mistakes that you have to correct in real time, you know, in blues and jazz, that's part of the tradition. You leave those in, right? I think I'm really fortunate because, yeah, don't overthink it, composers. Just write what feels true and leave the rest to the artist to interpret. Wow.

But did you have lots of experiences with improvisation, like growing up or in your— Like upbringing, I guess?

A little bit. You know, my first relationship to the piano was playing by ear, and then I did receive some lessons eventually, but my early musical life was improvisation in church settings. And, you know, I was homeschooled, so I had a lot of time to actually practice and learn how to read music. So my sight reading skills were developed from a really early age, and I had a freakish ability, actually, freakish ability to read scores fast. So that came in handy later in life when I became a staff accompanist at Oberlin Conservatory and I had to learn all these scores really quickly.

Wow.

You know, we all have our strengths. And now that I compose, I'm like, ah, what is my relationship to notation? So recently I've been involving more open-ended graphic notation so that the composer can see a symbol. And I guess the semiology of that can inflect how they interpret the other notes that are written, but—

Wow, that sounds— I don't know. I want to see the score. Yeah.

I'll show you. You know, in the West, we're so obsessed with like the written word. And in this chapter in my life, I'm obsessed with like preserving oral histories and, you know, preserving knowledge in other ways. So I'm at this weird crossroads in my compositional life where I really want to break free from notation and— you know, lean into the jazz side and graphic side. But I'd love to have this conversation again with you in a few years and see where I land on all of this.

Sure. Oh yeah.

It's all very valuable. It's not either/or.

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is not either/or. Wow. But, you know, coming from like a strict classical training, I think it's a very, very difficult thing. To do in that sort of free way and start from like improvisation, that sort of idea. But I can sense that you were playing in church. The style of music was like a gospel kind of style and that you were, you know, given specific, like, let's say hymnals or maybe like a melody with chords and then you were able to improv, or did you just everything by ear and you were just playing in church?

We had lead sheets in the church setting I grew up playing in, and I would say the aesthetic was more contemporary Christian. So, you know, it was a— I guess they call it a praise team or praise band. And we just, yeah, we played off the lead sheets and just improvised on the chord changes. But, you know, my dad was a pastor from, originally from Mississippi, but pastoring in the Seattle-Tacoma region. And demographically, a little bit different from Mississippi, right?

Right.

Yeah, I bet. So I heard him play lots of, you know, lots of old songs that you know, you might hear in Mississippi. And he had a way of playing his guitar in the country picking style. And I think that somehow has informed my language too. But yeah, I always like to clarify, like, when I grew up in the church, like, yeah, my dad, Black pastor, but not really a lot of gospel. Imagine that.

Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, I'm asking this because it's always fascinating where how all the guests start playing the piano, you know, and everybody has a different story. And some grew up in a very strict classical music background at home, and then some are just basically there was no music at all, and then all of a sudden they fell in love with music. It's so fascinating, you know, the moment they just— music becomes something to their lives. So that's, that's why I asked but I actually met many, several amazing gospel piano players, pianists. They're incredible.

Oh, they are incredible. And I always respect people who come to that tradition later in life. Like, I have a wonderful colleague, Dr. E. Chang, who teaches piano at Tuskegee University in Alabama. And part of his position, in addition to teaching, He has been assigned to play for the gospel choir there. And of course, this is a colleague from my Oberlin days who was an amazing classical pianist. And when he took the position, he just had to learn. And he's done such a wonderful job embracing this tradition, you know, this, this, funny Taiwanese dude who like loves basketball ends up in Alabama and is playing gospel. And I think it's so amazing because that speaks to how universal music can be, you know. So yeah, it's never too late. If you have any interest, there's lots of resources now to learn.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And a lot of ways to learn to improvise, make it on your own. Wow. So Then that's how you started your musical journey. And then what was the musical training like growing up?

You know, reflecting back, I think it's such a miracle that I even made it through all of the barriers that there are to, you know, learning an instrument. But originally I was— I had access to a keyboard. And, you know, I love playing video games, so I would just play by ear all of the themes of the video games that I heard, right? And I had a sister-in-law who played piano, and she taught me some things at first. But unless you're from a socioeconomic bracket that really has to make tough decisions every day about life necessities, sometimes you don't realize educating a child on a private instrument is a substantial investment. I mean, over the course of a number of years, our parents invested thousands of dollars in us, right? You know, and I think that when we have conversations around equity and access, especially, we need to keep that in mind. Right? It just takes resources to generate talent, period. Right?

Yes. Thank you for saying that. It is true.

I mean, even having the instrument itself after a keyboard, you know, I remember the conversation really clearly in my memory about my parents talking about, you know, to advance, he really needs a real piano, right? A real instrument. And they were just talking, okay, how do we get it? Where do we get it? Here's our budget. Are we going to find something suitable with this budget? But they made it happen because they recognized my potential. And imagine I didn't have a community or family unit that didn't recognize my potential. I would still be on a keyboard playing by ear and That's a beautiful tradition, but look at how much I've been able to grow in other traditions because I had the resource access, right? So I think that's the most important piece for me. And my educators that came after my sister-in-law, I had a Norwegian American piano teacher named Paul Tweed. In Tacoma who brought me up to speed for being such a late starter. I started piano lessons when I was 14 years old. That was wonderful to have a solid foundation from him. And then I went on to— I also had a wonderful choral educator who, you know, not piano, but instilled a certain level of excellence, a Greek American woman named Despina Alatsis. Who had me accompanying her choirs at a young age and, you know, understanding different approaches to music education. And for some reason or another, with the support of just these few individuals in my life, I was able to be one of 20 pianists admitted to Oberlin Conservatory in the year 2010. 2011. Yeah, 2011. And I was the first Black pianist to be admitted to that institution in a 6-year span.

Wow.

So 6 years at that institution, there were no other Black classical pianists admitted, which speaks to, in my opinion, institutional complacency. And I'm really happy to see it on a better trajectory nowadays. But those were some wonderful and also lonely times. Our friend Nena, who you mentioned with her wonderful Juneteenth programming in New York City at Joe's Pub and other places like the Met Museum, she also attended the Oberlin Conservatory. And of course, we all have stories from our music school years, right? Hopefully not all traumatic. But wow.

Tell me more about the— Yeah, like you said, sorry to interrupt, but tell me more about, you said something about felt solitude or loneliness. Yeah, tell me.

Yeah, well, I think that's the crux of representation, right? When you feel like you're the only one doing something, which of course it's not true. But sometimes we're all in our own silos and we might not have the mentorship to guide us, to give us that perspective that, okay, there's lots of other people like you doing what you're doing, but just not in this space. And I actually had moments like that because at Oberlin I had a wonderful Black dean, Chris Jenkins, who's now leading the Lawrence Conservatory in Wisconsin. But to have that representation gave me perspective. To have the scholarship support of Francis Walker, a pianist who set up a scholarship fund for Black students, I was able to have her support and mentorship in that space. And other, you know, supportive allies like my piano professor, Sanford Margolis. Like my instrumental accompanying professor, James Houseman, you know, they made me feel like a whole human being, you know, and gave me an education that was really world-class. So again, I look back at my life and I see all the areas that I got lucky. I got so lucky, but there were moments of loneliness for sure, because it's really— I almost wonder, should institutions just let one Black person in? The token, right? No, let us in in bigger numbers. Come on, 2 or 3 of us. At least let us have some friends along the way.

Yeah, and hopefully that would be the case now. You know, I'm not sure, but I'm away from all these institutions for a long time. But tell me more about your teacher, legendary pioneering pianist, Francis Walker. I was listening to her recording of Mendelssohn's Variations Theory. Oh, made me cry this morning. So deeply expressive, and then that tone, her tone, I mean, speaks to you, just gets you. But you are one of her final students, no?

Yes.

What was it like to sitting just beside her and getting lessons.

You know, I'll use this word again, familial. You know, she was kind of like a grandmother figure to me. And I did meet her at the end of her life. It was a long life. It was a hard life. But for those interested, she did write somewhat of an autobiography called A Miraculous Journey. Which is available online if you want to order and read that. She left behind lots of recordings as well. The 24 Negro Melodies of Samuel Courage Taylor, which she recorded in just one sitting.

Oh my God.

If you can imagine. I mean, that's over an hour of music, right? Wow. Yeah. She drove from Oberlin where she was teaching as the first tenured Black woman a professor at the institution, and she drove to New York, and she was going to get caught in a storm if she didn't leave, so she recorded it all in one setting. And what we hear is this beautiful music. But that's just the type of genius she was, right? And she told me lots of different stories. I would go to her house and, you know, she would serve me food, and I would always tell her, "Oh, I'm vegan, I'm vegan," and she would always put something on the plate that wasn't vegan. And, you know, like any older generation does and say, you know, you have to eat this, you have to get strong, get some meat on your bones. And, you know, in between that, she would make me listen to her recordings, which Mendelssohn she loved, Liszt she loved performing, Brahms she had a very special affinity for, and also a number of other Black composers who she championed. And who I had to follow in her footsteps to champion as well. She also was a proponent of her brother's music, George Walker, and as many wonderful artists interpreted his music, she was always proud that he complimented her as being one of the best interpreters of his music. And we know George Walker's earlier works have a very different flavor than the later works. Because serialism and other sorts of atonalities were— that was the it music for institutions in the '50s, right? At least in this country. And yeah, Francis was telling me like, you know, in this chapter of his life, he got cold and mathematical just like his music. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's some family tea right there. Hold up now. I wasn't ready, but— You know, she definitely had a preference for his earlier works. Second Piano Sonata is really quite accessible and beautiful. His Variations on a Kentucky Folk Song, gorgeous, very hard, gorgeous. So anyway, I heard lots of family stories that might be too personal to share, but I also heard, all of her challenges navigating, you know, life as an international concert pianist, stories she told me in Germany of how she was treated, stories she told me of other pianists, how they treated her, you know. I think having Having the chance to hear her experiences this late in life, in her 90s, carry that much pain still. As a young person, seeing that, that trauma has lasted for so many years.

Yeah, yeah, she had a really not one or two but triple I think challenges. She was injured or burnt when she was young, right?

Yes.

Yeah. And then she was really the only female Black educator at Oberlin. And so, and so many other challenges I'm sure she encountered. Wow, what a, what a story.

Yeah. It's, as the book calls it, it's a miraculous journey, very miraculous. We have to think, you know, when we see a Black person in the classical space, we just have to stop and think how much this person has endured, how much they have survived just to be able to show up and play beautiful. Often European music at a high standard, which some people just resent that fact alone, that we're just out here making beautiful, beautiful music from all over the world, you know. And that's just the starting point. So what else can we do with our artistry? And what else can we do with our pedagogy to share this tradition in ways that aren't aren't continuing that pain that we endured, but perpetuating beauty and love for the world. How do we do that?

Yeah. Well, that's where you come in, but, and, you know, you don't speak really about yourself. Like we've been talking about other composers, but you're an incredible pianist. I actually watched your performance of— speaking of, you know, Piano Sonata Number 2 by Brian Raphael Neighbors, and we just talked about— oh, I even commented on that video. I said, great soundscape, deeply soulful, immersive. Oh, immersive, that's, that's the word. Wow, that music. But you're playing, how special. You're very, very gifted. You're a very, very fantastic pianist. So After graduating and you were still in, you went back to Washington State area, Seattle area, and you were being a collaborative pianist for a while. Oh no, no, at Oberlin, not Washington.

Yes, both actually, actually both. So after a year in that staff position, I finished up my graduate degree in Cleveland and went back to the Seattle area to freelance as a collaborative pianist. So I did that for a number of years, you know, working with lots of wonderful talent, you know, folks from Seattle Opera, Portland Opera, you know, educating other kids in my community who needed access to free music lessons as well. And, you know, putting lots of pieces together as we do as musicians to make our livelihoods.

Right. And then didn't you create like a sort of educational institution or something and then teaching young kids in the area and then including, you know, neurodiverse kids, right?

Yes. Yes. What an incredible way to spend my 20s, right? Just saying yes to projects that I wanted to, right? And starting new initiatives and gathering community to solve challenges, right? So during this time, I served on the Tacoma Arts Commission. During this time, I served as an arts advisor for the city of Seattle. During this time, I founded a free after-school music program called T'Kwila Kids Make Music, which for about 4 years we were seeing 50 kids every week mostly immigrants and refugees in the Tukwila, South Seattle area. And we were offering them African drum lessons, group piano lessons, choir, guitar, and just joyous years of connecting with the community through music. And during this time, I also achieved state certification as a behavior technician. So I was giving, you know, ABA therapy to kids on the autism spectrum and helping them with their motor skills and speech acquisition. Beautiful years of my life. I really feel so grounded. And, you know, I think when we're young, I could say this because I'm, you know, mid-30s now, but—

Oh, so old, please.

When we're younger, we just have this this thirst to really contribute to some of the issues that are important to us. You know, we're shaping our values in the world.

Well, not everybody. You usually— people in their 20s, they just focus on themselves. Like, that's the only thing that they have in their mind. Not you. You started from community. That's, that's something that speaks so much about you. Yeah, I was very impressed. Yeah, but then you abandoned everything and you went to Mexico.

Yes, yeah, I said, you know what, I've done enough, you know, I can't, I can't just keep serving community until I die. No, I actually did, I moved to Mexico and I pursued my own liberation, right? Um, life in the States, I think we all can just use a I think we could all use a breather, okay? Things are getting a little crazy. They have been crazy since, since forever, since the last 250 years, okay? But, um, I had the chance to move to Mexico after serving as a music director for a wonderful, wonderful church, Plymouth Church, where the Reverend Dr. Kelly Brown preaches. And, you know, that was kind of my last community effort because I wanted to end high note. I was like, this feels really good. I could keep doing this and just live happily as a church musician for the rest of my days, or I could just try to continue growing. So I moved to Mexico and there I was supporting Poder Coral, which is a community choir actually in Mexico, in the state of Jalisco. And that was really fun. Because I was navigating a new language, navigating a new country, and again, being able to share the gift of music with community members.

Right. And for how long you were there?

One year.

One year. Yeah. So last year I saw you, that's when you were about to move to Hawaii, no? When—

was I already living in Mexico when you saw me?

Yeah. You said you flew from Mexico in New York. And then so you were not yet at Hawaii, in Hawaii, but yeah, you were in transit.

I was. I really never felt a spirit of inclusion from the composer mentors and professors in my earlier music education. You know, I had interpreted lots of works by composers, but I never really— I would just say I never had access to composition lessons, to be very blunt and frank. I had some really wonderful music theory education, and I— because I play piano, obviously that's a wonderful foundation for understanding music holistically. So in recent years, through my freelance work, through opportunities like what Afton Battle gave me when she was leading the Fort Worth Opera, she was one of my first commissions, right? Always in my career, Black women have commissioned me to produce work when the mainstream institutions won't get their act together. Most recently, Castle of Our Skins, Ashley Gordon, the artistic director there for 13 years. Wow. She's been doing such great work, and she has given me my latest commission. But—

Castle of Our Skins is in Boston. That's an organization dedicated to fostering cultural cur— celebrating Black artistry through music, right? Yeah.

Exactly.

Sorry to interrupt. Yes, go ahead.

And coming into a compositional identity after being a concertizing pianist, collaborative pianist, piano educator, all those things, right? I realize it's not that much of a reach. You know, the gap between what we do as performing artists and composers, I don't think it's as huge as we make it up because we have the skills to do that. Yukimi, like, if you composed an etude tomorrow, it would sound good. I know it would.

Well, I did compose a little bit when I was a kid, you know?

Really? Yeah. Do you still have those works?

In my head, I remember. Yeah. Exactly.

So it's all in your head. Just write it down, right? I mean, it's the same for any discipline. Like if you're an author, okay, you have the story, you just put it on paper. That's the hardest part is starting. So I said, okay, I'm just going to decide to write everything in my head down. And I put it down. And before I knew it, I had an orchestra piece. I had solo piano music. I had vocal works. And I submitted a portfolio to the University of Hawaiʻi because I wanted to live in a sunny place. And I said, "I'll just try." And I was accepted on full scholarship with no composition training for a PhD, very competitive program. They accepted me and one other person. So, you know, sometimes in life there are barriers institutionally, but there are also the barriers we feed ourselves, you know, with this defeatist ideology of "I can't." Right? We have to really empower ourselves with positivity and just start believing that, you know, I'm capable, I am brilliant, I am excellent. You know, if I hadn't said affirmations like these that I got from my therapist, I would not be on the trajectory I am in life today. I would still be an imposter. I would still be playing it small. Right.

Wow.

So I encourage you, next time I talk to you, I want to hear one of your compositions.

All right. I don't know, I'm embarrassed. But that's great. Then tell me, what are you experiencing right now in Hawaii? I know I'm so jealous because as an Asian person, obviously, I don't know much about Asian music, actually. Really. I'm kind of person in the sort of gray area. I'm not quite Japanese. I'm not Korean either. But I grew up, my, you know, grandmother would sing some Korean tunes and things. But, you know, so I'm very, very jealous that you get to study Asian Pacific traditions and ethnomusicology and cross-cultural. You know, staff at Hawaiʻi, in Hawaiʻi. Tell me.

It's an opportunity of a lifetime, you know, and I think it's particularly this institution of the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa can be a model for other institutions around the country who want to be responsive to the traditions around them in their community. So the reason why Asian Pacific is so big in Hawaii is because look around you, right? And what if music departments just looked around them in Chicago and Detroit and New York? What if they just looked around and decided we are going to teach the music of the people? All of our problems would be solved. All of our DEI, you know, as they call it, all of those things would be solved. In a heartbeat. So anyway, the program here is really special because with just as much rigor as we're, you know, looking at classical music, we're looking at different classical music traditions and theories of the global south of the world, right? And this semester, I'll just give you an example. I've been learning the gagaku tradition of Japan. One of the most ancient musical traditions in the world. It's Imperial Japanese court music. So one of my favorite instruments to play is the sho. It's the mouth organ. And it, you know, you're basically just circular breathing for forever, producing this beautiful sustained sound for the other instruments float on top of. You know, we have access to all sorts of traditional instruments at this university. The koto, the shakuhachi, the ichiriki. I mean, you name it, we have a huge ethnomusicology collection of instruments here. And we also have faculty specializing in traditional Korean music, the sanjo tradition. So this was my first time in this program writing for an Eastern instrument. I wrote for the kaegum. Oh my goodness, that beautiful plucked pitch-bending Korean string instrument. Wow. And, you know, it just shows you what's possible, you know, when you just decenter Europe for just a second. There's so much richness out there. And you start just seeing how common we are, how we like all over the world, how we just like to make music together, how we like to tell our stories through music, how we like to honor life through music. You know, it's all the same. It's all the same.

But you find your place in variety. You'll find your place in sort of really diversity. I don't want to sound like so cliché, but you know, because you mentioned a little bit ago about loneliness and how isolated you felt, but then you find just a beautiful, you know, your own spot in a beautiful place like Hawaii, surrounded with this diversity of music. That's haven, right?

Yes. And can you imagine my composition here, my composition mentor professor Takumi Ito, Japanese American composer who has such a strong jazz background. Can you imagine, you know, just after all these years of being lost in the wilderness and never quite getting that representation I needed, you know, just to finally have it? I mean, he played Stevie Wonder in class the other day and I just was crying. I started crying, you know. He's just doing all the things I've been shouting into the void to try to help educators get to a place of consciousness and embracing Black music for analysis. He's just doing that in the music theory classroom. And you start realizing that, you know what, it's a new day. It's a new day and change is here. You become part of change and then you look around you and you see everyone else who's also embraced it. You know, that's really nice. I think as I age, that's the most satisfying thing. Then you see in the students their curiosity and the research they bring. And you see, wow, they're also on this path. I could help them. I could help them keep their spirits in the process. This and help them navigate all the haters who come into their path, give them all the tips for sustaining themselves through this work for all the years that they're going to be committed to it.

Now, I'm also— I have to be careful. Well, who cares? Because I don't like exclusiveness or exclusivity or you have to really get through this narrow path to become excellent. I don't believe in that, you know. I, of course, to become excellent you have to work hard. It's very difficult to be excellent, but I think that anyone should be able to do it. Yeah, I'm struggling. I'm, yeah, so it's, I'm very encouraged by this conversation right now. Yeah.

Well, we have to think about, you know, historical examples. We have to reimagine, you know, I'll take Nina Simone's story for example. The Curtis Institute of Music, the most highly regarded place of musical study in our country, denied one of the most brilliant artists of the 20th century, Miss Nina Simone. And then when you really, really let that fact sink in, you start to understand the need for inclusion, right? Because who else are we denying because they're not fitting into our so limited standards of excellence that we're gatekeeping?

So, you know, in the previous season, Leah Clayborne spoke about Arise and Shine as a large-scale project bringing together Black pianists and composers at Yamaha Artist Services. Oh, she's brilliant. And to create a living archive of music for young The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with the pianist, centering representation, pedagogy, and legacy. So I've spoken with several artists involved in that Arise and Shine project, including Gina McKay. Kyle P. Walker, was he— is he also in the project? Yeah, he's fantastic. And then of course, as well as Maria Thompson Corley. So yes, what was your role in Arise and Shine? Did you participate as a performer or composer?

I was a performer. And this Arise and Shine project, which Dr. Leah Claiborne spearheaded through her organization Ebony Music Inc. and in partnership with the Yamaha Studio in Manhattan, right? I mean, this is the definition of thinking big. Right? This came about through the support of the Sphinx Organization. So she had the vision to apply for a grant and she made her case and she won that substantial funding to make this happen, this gathering of 10 pianists from across the country representing lots of different avenues, backgrounds, and places in the diaspora. We got together, And it is historic. And I think we all don't take that lightly, the fact that 10 of us will be remembered historically for gathering to honor our ancestral music, right? Nyaho was a part of this project. Karen Walwyn was part of this project.

Michelle Callen.

Michelle Kang was part of this project, you know, speaks to just how community-minded she is. I was really honored to present music by other living composers. I played a blues piece by Dave Raglan. But what I love about this project is that it demystifies the idea that piano music is just for the advanced player, you know. Dr. Clayburn's dissertation was about leveling piano music by Black composers because she wants to make it accessible to beginners, intermediate, advanced, and professional players. So all of the music on this album, Piano Music by Black Composers for Kids is the subtitle, available on Navona Records. It's really just revolutionary to how pianists and piano teachers can share this tradition with pianists of all ages. And I'm just so proud to contribute to that effort, a publication and recording dual project that is monumental.

Right. Yeah. Every artist has a story, and every story is shaped by moments of courage. As we wrap up Season 6, The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is now accepting guest nominations for Season 7, launching this September. Our next season explores culture and courage, the roots that shape artists and the risks they take to move their work forward. Nominate a guest today. The link is in the show notes. Do you want to talk about your newly, uh, composed piece, Affirmation? Let's talk about it. Thank you so much for sending music score. It's an interesting combination of bass and vocal.

Yeah, so double bass, right, flute, viola, countertenor, mezzo-soprano, and harp is the instrumentation I chose for this vocal chamber work called "Affirmations." And it is— it's a large-scale work. It can be as long as 25 or 30 minutes depending on the sections that require a little bit of improvisation. But all of the text is written by one of my dear friends, a poet named Gloria Muhammad-Joy. She has written all of these affirmations to affirm our presence in the world. So it's very positive music. It's very meditative music. And it's very reflective music. I call my compositions sound liberation. So I like to think that it's freeing music for people as well. As they hear these vibrations through the performer's intention, it's my hope that they're transformed by that experience.

Wonderful. And then is it going to be recorded and premiere sometime?

It will be premiered in Boston on June 6th.

So that's— okay. So that's— okay. So this episode will be out on June 2nd, so 4 days after. That's when you are playing for this event, Black Declaration of Independence?

Yes, I love how this organization, Castle of Our Skins, has taken that theme which we're seeing nationally in arts programming, you know, the historical fact of the United States of America turning 250 years old. What does that mean for Black people, right? Because in the original Declaration of Independence, we were not really accounted for. Independence has not been historically associated with Black folks in this country. Right? So what I love about this organization's work is their they're responding to this corrective, correctively responding and imagining a world and a country of Black folks who are independent and free. Just imagine, I mean, just take that. If everyone just meditated on what it means to be Black and free, wow, that's something that can transform your whole worldview. Yeah, we're free, we're free. So you cannot lord dominance over us because we are free. Cannot pay us less institutionally because our labor is not to be exploited, right? So I really think that that's my biggest takeaway if anyone wants to get something from this music. I'm affirming things that should have been affirmed in that original Declaration of Independence.

Yes, I know. Yeah. Wow, this is great. So Black Declaration of Independence will happen in Boston, uh, uh, on June 6th, which is 4 days after this episode is published. your contribution to the Cambridge Companion to Florence Price. Florence Price's piano music has just become so popular, and rightly so, and it's a wonderful thing that is happening. You know, a lot of pianists play, a lot of even students play her pieces, so I I think it's wonderful just to be— her pieces are just now the standard repertoire. I think it's encouraging, right?

So, yeah.

And but this publication came out on March 26th, which is a few months ago. So tell us about this project and how— what was your contribution to this publication?

Yeah, thank you so much. This is a really special honor to contribute. I co-authored a chapter with a wonderful musicologist named Gwen Brown, who is a professor of musicology at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington. And I provided a practitioner lens and my co-author provided more of a scholarly historical lens. But we were focusing on the Keyboard Music of Florence Price, which includes pedagogical piano works, concert piano works, organ works, right? So this is part of the Cambridge Companion Series, which is, you know, it is an internationally a renowned publication that has topics ranging from art to philosophy to all sorts of things, and it's meant as an introductory series for students and scholars alike to have verified peer-reviewed information about a certain topic or historical figure. So even the fact that Price is now positioned canonically to enter the Cambridge Companion Series speaks to the work Price scholars have been doing in the last couple of decades. And the preeminent scholar of Price is Dr. Samantha Eke, and she has released numerous publications on the topic of Price. Which follows the legacy of people like Raylinda Brown, the late musicologist who authored a pioneering biography on this composer, which I highly recommend. So Dr. Ege is one of the most community-minded scholars that I've had the chance to meet. She herself is a wonderful pianist and she's recorded much of Price's music, she's performed, she's taught and written about Price's music. But for her to get together a community of scholars in all different facets of their careers to write critical essays on Price's work. Again, we're positioning her in her rightful domain. You know, how many scholarly publications are there of Haydn compared to Black female composer like Florence Price? That should speak for itself. Just look at the numbers, right? In recent years, Price has been canonized canonized without a doubt, right? Without a doubt, she is on programs regularly. She's on degree recitals. She's being studied at a high level. And with this increased attention, it is really important for those interpreters to rely on scholarly materials to do her music justice. I mean, how are you going to play Price without knowing what a Juba dance is, for example?

Right?

How? How can you do that with any sense of authenticity in the same way that you would try to play, you know, a Bach suite without knowing French style ornamentation, you know? Why would you feel compelled to delve into any performance practice without having the tools under your belt to do that, right? So this Cambridge Companion is a tool. It is a resource for scholars and practitioners. And again, Samantha Ege, wow. The contributors that she has assembled for this is going to make you think about Price. In really new and special ways. Even as I share this with you, I'm thinking about her most recent publication of the Four Fantasies Negras by Price, which is now available, I believe. So these are Price's most colorful large-scale piano compositions now available in one compilation score edited with fingerings and pedal markings appropriate for the early advanced student and the professional alike. So what an honor to contribute to this Price Scholar community that Dr. Ege is cultivating internationally.

So Who is Florence Price to you then?

Florence Price to me, she's someone who dreamed. You know, there's so many dreamy qualities about her music. From her lush harmonic language to her moments of impressionism, you know, lushness. This musical texture of lush harmony that she employs, but also just the fact that she dreamed these compositions into creation. And she did it for a living. She dreamed for a living, you know, when she accompanied silent films on the organ. She was looking at a scene and dreaming a musical landscape around that, right? And I think that's so important for Black women to dream and to have the resources and invitation and ease around them to dream, because look what comes of it. You know, everyone knows the famous story of how her symphony came to be premiered and how she was the first Black woman to have her symphony premiered in the United States. But in her keyboard music, we find almost orchestral textures. She didn't wait for the opportunity. She dreamed orchestral music at the keyboard. That's amazing to me. You know, she was innovating on her own terms. And I just think it's really important that we remember her as someone in every stage of her career who was dreaming for herself and for her people.

Well, thank you. We're almost coming to an end, but just a few more questions. You said, "It's a wonderful thing to move differently through the world and to spend life honoring what is most important to you." That's your writing. Now, what does that actually require, especially in the world that often rewards conformity?

Well, I would take— if I may, I would take the work you're doing as a perfect example of this. Through The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song, you know, providing a platform for pianists to have genuine conversations like these and really getting to the heart of the matter and going into our purpose. I've had a chance to listen to a few episodes and I'm always just struck afterwards like, wow, this— when do we have the chance to hear the behind the scenes and to hear people's intentionality behind what they're doing? So I think the platform you provide is so empowering to that point. You know, we're all navigating this industry in such different ways to keep our souls intact and to keep our bank accounts happy, right?

Somewhat.

Yeah, right, right, right. You know, it's all sacrifices, but behind this is a real sense of purpose, right? And Yeah, how do you empower someone to have the courage to move through in their own way, no matter their background, no matter their way of socializing, their neurodiversity, whatever it is? Yeah, what are we beyond the instrument? What is our legacy? How will we be remembered? What are we leaving behind? I think these are important questions for any artists. And, you know, specifically as a Black artist, these are questions we interrogate on a daily basis. You know, we don't— always have the privilege to just waste opportunities. We have to go straight to what matters. You know, if we have a platform, we use it to lift others up, or we use it to give our best, highest form of expression. You know, I was just listening to the music of another pianist, Armenta Hummings, who founded the Gateways Music Festival. And I heard her recital from 1989, and I really felt that every note that she played, every phrase that she delivered, it was life or death. It came from a place of, you know, I'm going to present this to the highest level possible. So that goes way beyond just the standards that they give us. Those are informed. Again, ancestrally, those are informed by this idea of Black excellence. And, you know, as we look at the contributions of Black scholars, Black female scholars, performers, artists, that's the common denominator. If you look close enough, that's always going to be the common thread.

Where do you think this— the piano world is now? When it comes to representation in repertoire. How are we doing? Are we doing better?

Sure.

Yay!

Sure. I mean, at the end of the day, you have to believe what makes you show up as your best self the next day. If you look around you and, you know, you're seeing an absence, that can be very triggering and traumatic. Or you could see the one person nearby and you could reach out and spend your energy in, in doing the best you can for that one person, right? So is it to where we, we need? No, because we, we all have different standards of what tomorrow looks like. My tomorrow looks like integration. Yeah, I still use the word integration in the year 2026 because we know the state of our field and the racial inequities, right? It's not a secret after 2020, right? Absolutely. The cat's out of the bag, guys.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, if you haven't spent much time dreaming about what it looks like to, in my example, go to class with a scholar of Filipino indigenous music, Klimtong, sitting right next to you. And, you know, going to class and seeing, you know, the beautiful diversity of musical talent around you. I think you're just missing out, and that deserves empathy. And then that's where you lean into your own kuleana, your own sense of purpose and responsibility, and you fill in the gap. And you could either do that with resentment, and of course, you know, everybody gets burnt out, or you could do that with the spirit of joy. And in this chapter of my life, I'm gonna do it joyously.

That's great.

And I'm going to continue amplifying the resources around me. Well, that's how I'm dealing with the crazy environment.

That's good though. Yeah, you have such a good soul. Your heart is in the right place. That's what it is. Yeah. So the one or two— one more. So You're part of the next generation of composers. I mean, you're in the club, Joe. Yeah. As you think about your own path, how do you want your— how do you want to shape your artistry and legacy? We talked about legacy, so now it's your turn. What's your legacy going to be like? I mean, what do you want it to be?

You know, I've hustled for so long. And I'm just at the point where someone is interested in my music, that's a wonderful honor. But I want to move with ease for the rest of my adult life. Okay, I want to enjoy some sunshine. I want to go on a walk. I think composers need spaciousness to create. Any creative needs a sense of ease to appreciate the beauty around them to transmit into their own original piece, right? So I'm spending less time slowing down and pumping out less quality versus quantity. And, you know, if someone approaches me and they say, okay, I feel like I'm in alignment with your artistic practice with your philosophy. I would like to champion your music. Would you please give me the permission to play one of your scores? Or can we collaborate? Or I would like to commission you. Okay, that's a conversation from a place that energizes me, right? But there's a million wonderful composers in the world to champion, right? Every artist, every pianist, Look for places of alignment and lean in, and I promise it's going to be such a transformative experience for both parties. You're going to set each other free. Wow, that's my strategy to keep my longevity and avoid burnout in this next chapter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're doing just fine. You're doing great. So what's next for you? So you have this Black Declaration of Independence happening on June 6th, but is there anything else like you can share that you're maybe working towards or working for? Hmm, like composing opera or something?

You know, I'm pausing because, uh, you know, you have those intrusive thoughts come into your head. I was thinking about a similar question they asked Aretha Franklin and She was just— her response was like, I'm thinking about what I'm making for dinner tomorrow.

I've seen that video. Yes, I've seen it.

It sends me every time. I'm just like, I'm just another normal human being. If you saw me on the street, you wouldn't know I'm a musician. I'm worried about the same thing. I'm behind on laundry, I need to file my taxes, and I'm hungry. Like, you know what I mean?

Oh, I've seen it. Oh, she's incredible. Oh, I love her. I love her. Yeah. So is that your answer?

That's my answer.

Okay. Great.

What spicy food can I eat next?

Yeah. So beyond this conversation, what is the best way for my viewers and listeners to stay connected with you? Is it through Instagram? Because I tried to look for you through a website, but I couldn't find it. So. You think it's the Instagram?

Oh, sure. Yeah, Instagram, my handle. I just, I'm a millennial through and through, so shoot me a DM.

Mm-hmm.

Sound Liberator.

Sound Liberator. All right. Sounds good. Before I let you go, we have one more thing, and that's the rapid-fire questions. Now, we take this segment very seriously. You've shared your stories and expertise today, but these questions, carefully curated by our team, which is me, will give our listeners a glimpse into who you truly are. So I want you to answer each question with the shortest response as possible. No explanation is necessary. Okay, number 1: What is your comfort food?

The Thai noodles. The Thai noodles are the best noodles.

How do you like your coffee in the morning?

Black, black, blackity black.

All right, that's good. Cats or dogs?

Cats, even though I'm allergic.

Sunrise or sunset?

Dusk.

Beautiful. Summer or winter?

Summer.

Now, what skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Swimming.

Oh, you're in Hawaii, so that's great. You can swim every morning. What is your word or words to live by?

Aloha.

Cute. Favorite venue you have ever performed in, or maybe a dream venue?

The Dubai Opera House.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Integrity, empathy.

Name a composer you wish more people knew about.

Yukimi Song.

No!

All of the listeners start harassing her for these scores. We're gonna make it happen. Oh my God, come together, rise up, people!

I did not expect that. Okay, I better do something. All right, name one piece in your current playlist.

Always down to listen to Kendrick.

If you could go back and give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be? Chill. Hmm, good one. Last one, fill in the blank: music is blank.

Beautiful.

Hmm, that's perfect. Joe, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your artistry, your vision, and the depth of your work with us. And it has been a real pleasure having you on the show. And to our listeners, I encourage you to to explore Joe's work, his performances, compositions, and ongoing projects that continue to expand the landscape of classical music. The best way to stay connected is through his Instagram account @soundliberator, and you can also find more in the links in, in our show notes. And to everyone listening, thank you for spending this time with us. If this conversation resonates with you, please like, comment, and tag us at The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Joe Wiles. Thanks for listening or watching. We will see you next time on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thanks you. Thank you, Joe, so much.

Mahalo.