#1 Mistake When Adding Naturopathic Medicine to Your Clinic with Meghan Walker

Where it doesn't work is when you have a transactional model of care and you're like, oh, you should go see our other transactional naturopathic doctor because it's, it's out of step and there's no natural flow to that recommendation for patients.

How to get smarter in business and in life. This is the question, and I'm on a journey get you that answer. I'm going to interview the world's top entrepreneurs and deconstruct their winning secrets. Going to talk about everything from marketing money and living a bucket list life. I'm Rick Lau, healthcare entrepreneur. I grew and exited my 127 locations in my 30s. Welcome to the clinic boss show. I was talking to my team, I was like, oh, like, I gotta meet Megan. I see Megan, like everywhere. Like, she's all over Instagram. I was like, you know, and I've been following you and I was, been checking you out and, and yeah, I just like, I love your journey and your story. And I was like, I gotta meet Megan and find out more about her story and what she's doing. And correct me if I'm wrong, you're a naturopathic doctor business coach. You own this. You're the CEO of a clinician business labs, and you help clinician entrepreneurs to make more money, create more impact and live a bucket list life. Did I get that right, Megan?

Yeah, yeah, you, you kind of. You nailed that. Yeah. I retired from practice two years ago. So I sold, I sold my practice. Yeah, I sold my price two years ago, February of 2020, just before the pandemic. So it was like divine. I know, it's like I started it.

Why did you sell it?

Why did I sell it? So I, I mean, I had sold my first initial clinic and then launched a startup. I was, I was very clear from the beginning that I was like, okay, how do we put these systems of medicine, these like truly preventative, functional systems of medicine into more people's hands? That's what I wanted to do. And then as I was building out my first practice, which was a multidisciplinary clinic, I was like, I can't put this in the hands of millions of people while I am like tethered to the, the daily grind and overhead of, of running like an unscaled clinic. And so I sold my share of that business to my business partner. I was involved in this other startup. I was, I did that and I, I built my own, like, my micro practice and I worked with like, I worked with like elite entrepreneurs and politicians and, like, leaders. Like, my whole thing was performance medicine, So I was doing that. And then simultaneously to that, I just had a lot of colleagues who were like, how are you not, like, bankrupt? Like, I don't understand how you're building a business. Like, what. What. What's the secret sauce? And so I literally just started hosting. I was like, I'm just going to host a Zoom call the first Thursday of every month, and anyone can come, and I'm happy to just, like, chat through what's happening. And, um. And then we just, like, had so many people. I was like, oh, this is the thing. And we launched our first program, and we kind of grew clinician business labs. And it. I always just call it, like, an accidental business. It wasn't like I was intentionally trying to do this. And so we just. We grew that. And then in probably the early part of. Of. Well, in 2019, yeah, it was just a lot. I had three kids at that point. Like, I just. There was a lot. There's just a lot of moving pieces in my life, and I was aware of that. And we were, like, really starting to scale pieces with cbl. And I have this routine that if I'm at. Standing in front of the lottery sign, and I was literally at a rec song, was flashing $50 million, and I was like, what's different tomorrow if you win the lottery? And my answer would always be, like, nothing. Little things were so good. And that day, before I could have this, like, token answer I always gave, my subconscious came, like, roaring out, and it was like, we are so done seeing patients if we win the lottery tonight.

Wow. Oh.

So I went back to my. I went back to my office, and I. I reached out to my director of operations, and I was like, this was June. I said, I'm going on sabbatical, Labor Day weekend, and I want to test drive not seeing. Not seeing patients. And one of my associates took over my caseload. And I was very certain at that point that I wouldn't go back, but I really wanted to, like, try it on and feel what that felt like. And then February rolled around, and there was just a series of. Of things that happened with some of the core members of my team. And we, like, we turned the whole thing around. In 24 hours. A team member told me her mom was dying. Cancer. I was like, okay, how badly do you want to keep saying patients? She's like, like, really? I don't. At all. And I was like. It was. We were just at this, like, critical point. I was like, I'll talk to you tomorrow. And I made two phone calls and I called the person who I wanted to buy my practice and I was like, here, I want, I want out. And here's the price and here's what I'm looking at. And, and she's like, I'll take it. And I said, great. And then I spoke to my team member the next day and she was like, I sold the practice. We're try. We're transferring all of the files and all of the assets over to, to her. And. And I was out. And that was February.

So that was February of 2020.

2020. And then they shut down all of the allied health clinics in Canada on March 14.

You couldn't, you couldn't time that better, eh, Megan?

No. And it was like wrapped. It was like wrapped in a bow. Like everything had been transferred. I had no, I had no responsibility to that cohort of patience. It was done.

I'm curious, what was it like post selling? Because that, that was a crazy time. And I remember like we were, we're running these like, you know, weekly, you know, what do we call it? Covid crisis webinars. And like tough time. Like it was like on, off. On off, higher fire. Like open business, closed business. Like what, what was it like with the, the previous owner during the transition? Or like it was just. Yeah, it was all good.

It was pretty seamless. I mean she already had a location, so I don't have to worry about my location. Like, I just like I transferred off that lease. We transferred all the patients over and she, she was actually in, like she was in my mastermind. And we did the same thing. Like the, like as the. As the world just sort of like did its thing mid March. I mean we were on calls with people and group calls like every morning talking through all of the pieces. And so she, I mean she had a ton of support through that.

That was a rough time. So your community is. Do you mostly work with naturopaths, like massage therapists, like physio, like who's kind of in your tribe, you know?

Yeah.

Who's in the Megan tribe?

Yeah, so we really, we have a strong focus on, I'll say transformational practitioners. And by that it's usually naturopathic doctors, CAIROs, functional medicine docs, MD and DOs in the US is our sort of primary focus from that perspective. So a huge part of like my methodology and my background and my training is really like, how do we deliver and create transformational care? It's a different model of care it's what my book's about. Like that's, it's, it's a different deployment. And so that's really our, our focus is working on practitioners.

Some of that is. I, I, I'm not a medical person and I'm a, I'm a simple person. What, what is, what is. By the way, I love Naturopath. Like I've, I've, I have one back in Victoria and you know, I do the thing. But what's the difference between like, I guess, normal care versus some of this transformational care? Like, I don't, as a patient, I don't know if I would know the difference.

Right, yeah, sure. So, you know, I, I think there's different phases to where people are at in terms of wellness. And so we have all been trained by our traditional staff system to engage in transactional care. You cut your arm, you go to emerge, you get sutures, it gets infected, you go back, you get antibiotics, blah, blah, blah, it's healed, you're good, see you later. And that was a series of transactions until the problem was resolved. And that was like the typical model of how most naturopaths, functional medicine practitioners, they're like, that's the only model I know. I guess that's how I'm going to deploy CL care over in my world. Except the reality is, is when patients come to see us, they're like, I've had Crohn's and colitis for 20 years and I'm back and forth with my doctor and nothing's better. And so part of like healing their Crohn's or Colitis as an example, is not a series of transactions where we try a new supplement and it doesn't work. We put you in a new supplement. Like, that isn't what we need. What we need to do is we need to really understand clinically what are actually the phases of care we need to heal. Like tie a bow on and move on to the next piece. And so that requires a different type of communication, it requires a different type of clinical, clinical planning. So we teach people how to create different phases of their, of their care. Key milestones for patients. What's a clinician's responsibility versus a patient's responsibility as we like move towards resolution of the problem, not management of the symptoms for now. And so yes, it's a series of touch points that you'll have, but it's because we're moving into like a new place on that health, on that health journey. And so developing that, that, that methodology and that clinical system is, is like a key component of what it is.

Between transfermental care versus preventative care. Because I hear preventive care a lot like in our industry. Right. But I think it's my first time hearing transformative care, you know.

Yeah. I mean there's components of prevention through that transformation. A phase of that transformation is certainly going to be forward facing so that we are addressing things from a preventative capacity. But I think that prevention has, uh, it also has a really bad, it has a bad rap. Um, people aren't interested in buying prevention. That's like for a problem in 40 years from now. And I've got 800 problems today.

And so I want a painkiller, not a vitamin. Right. Is that what you mean?

Right. And it's, it's no different than like, let's plan for your retirement. You're like, let's do that next month once I've paid my taxes. Um, and so this whole notion of certainly the traditional system has borrowed the term prevention. Um, and for them that's like eat an apple and grab your vaccine. And then in the allied health space, we have this real habit of wanting to deliver to our patients exactly what we want to deliver to them, not what they're looking for. And so patients are typically looking for resolution of their issue and tools so it doesn't come back. And we have a whole different definition of what prevention can be. And it's really actually hard to create patient buy in on our clinical definition.

Interesting. So, so paint what, paint what the four stages would be like for a typical chiropractor in their care plan. Like, what would that look like?

Yeah. So chiropractors are really interesting because they again they're like, let's transact. I don't understand why the people don't want to stick around once the pain is gone. And so anytime. What's that?

After their sixth visit, they're like, I'm like, I'm out.

Yeah, yeah, I'm pain free. Thank you. You're amazing. And, and so the lifetime value of those a client's is, is particularly low. So when we're looking at like anytime we design a transformation, we're first looking at it from a clinical case first. So clinically, what do you wish your patients were actually moving through? So the first phase of care for a chiropractor, it's going to be slightly different depending on their populations, etc. But like the first phase we're going have to look at is like, we'll have to do acute management Right. This person's acutely injured themselves. We need to actually give them what they need. And while we're talking about that acute management, we're then going to move into that second phase and that second phase probably where we're going to look at functional restoration. So you've created damage here, and I'm going to remove the pain. And I want you to know that when the pain is gone, we've only moved to phase one. So a huge part of having the methodology is managing the expectations of patients who've only ever had transactional care, and they stop care when the pain goes away. So we have to set them up for the expectation.

Transactional care. That is such a nice buzzword, you know, Tr. Transactional care.

Well, and I know, and it feels really gross. Like, it's just. You're like, oh, I want something more than that for myself. And so, you know, we can. We can go through the various pieces, but, like, we manage the acute piece, then we've got to do this, like, functional restoration component. Then we probably have some localized. We all have, like, localized rehabilitation where we're like, okay, we've restored that piece. Now we actually have to stabilize a little bit broader because this whole area is actually area of weakness. Do you understand that? Patient. Patient's like, oh, yeah, this makes so much more sense. Let's strengthen the whole area. And then we look at, okay, now what has to happen systemically because you were really prone to this injury because, you know, your, your inflammatory levels are super high and you're completely deconditioned and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, like, that fourth phase is what do we have to examine systemically so that you're not back here again?

Yeah. Interesting.

So that would be an example of how we would do that. This is.

This is quite interesting versus the, I'm going to call it the transactional care to the transactional cares that I'm used to and seeing, you know. Right. So in terms of, like, lifetime value or care plans, like, you know, like, let's just say the average Cairo or physio, this, you know, in part of their transactional care gets like seven visits, you know. Right. On a care plan, like in this, four phases. Like what. In your program, like, what does it look like? Is it. Is it like. Is it like, higher than that, you know?

Yeah. We usually increase retention by about 40%, and for our naturopathic doctors and functional medicine docs, it goes up over 60%. So it's. It's a massive shift for those practitioners in particular. And then when we're talking about someone like a Cairo, we've now actually now introduced components that can be leveraged for them. So it's not just their, their time and touch points, which we label those types of appointments, like technician appointments. And so there's always, there's always a lower price point associated with those pieces. So it allows them to charge more and then it increases the longevity of the patients too.

Interesting. And so do you mostly work with like solopreneurs or like clinicians that want to be solopreneurs or like maybe more of the, you know, like, you know, whether it's a break even practice or multi million dollar practice, like who's, who's, who's kind of like in that, in that tribe of yours.

Yeah, we kind of put people into three buckets. So we've got people who are looking to fill their practice. They're usually solo clinicians, the associates of bigger clinics. And they can be brick and mortar or they can be in person. We have solo clinicians who are looking to create leveraged offerings within their, within their practice or for their brand. And then we work with clinics and then naturopathic functional medicine space.

What's a leverage? So you go leverage a leverage offering.

Yeah, like online courses or group programs or things that are not like an hour of their time for payment.

Okay, interesting. Cool. And so what do you think is the, what's, what do you see if you had a crystal ball, like what is the future of the naturopathic like profession? You know? You know, I'm super to hear from an expert from you.

You know, I think we're at a really interesting, like if we're really honest, I think we're at a really interesting point for naturopathic medicine. I think that we need to do a better job of evolving our care and the quality of care. I think we need to. I'm like, I'm really passionate about this notion of transformational care because when I talk to patients, that's what they're looking for. And there's still huge numbers of NDs who are engaging in transactional care. And the reason I think that this is a big risk for us as a profession and as an industry is because AI is able to engage in naturopathic transactional conversations, period. Like that that is a replaceable model of care. Even if we don't want to look at that, like even if we don't want to, people be like, that's not true. That's okay. You can share that, you can have that Opinion, I think it's a huge risk factor for us. And also our cost of care is elevating. So we need to be extremely mindful around how we deliver care because our cost of care delivery are going up. We need to be more innovative around how we're helping people move forward.

What kind of trends are like, like virtual? You mean like or, or like some of the leverage, leverage stuff that you're talking about? Is that what you mean by like, different service models?

I think when, when I talk about service models, I'm first and foremost talking about how do we deliver transformation versus a transaction. And that can be in person or that can be. That can be done virtually. But that's a philosophical approach to care. And one, I think it gets more people. Well, two, it lends itself to more leverageable models. As soon as you've created demand for yourself as an authority in that, in that model. Now, now you can offer group programs, now you can offer online pieces. There's. There's lots of ways you can leverage, once you've created demand for that, for that piece. So I think that it creates longevity to your business. I think it gets better patient outcomes, and I think it mitig gates around some of these sort of more esoteric risks that we're seeing for the, for the industry and I think in general for all of us. We need to remember this is a $4.4 trillion global industry. And I would argue that functional medicine docs and naturopathic doctors in the health and wellness sphere are two cohorts that are probably the most educated in these particular realms. And then they represent such a very small part of the market share. And so, you know, one of the opportunities that I think is. Is available for this particular cohort is to have a bigger voice in the conversation, to really share their inherent wisdom and knowledge. And we have a. We have a lot of fear, I think, sometimes of sharing information, but our value is actually our capacity to deliver strategy. And so when we can help people see that, we start to lift the veil on the fear of sharing all of the information. Like, we know some really cool stuff. Just share all of that. Because what people aren't going to be able to do is pull that together into a transformational strategy. That's your secret sauce. Not what you know, but how you utilize and leverage it. So I kind of shout from the rooftops those types of pieces, because I think those are our biggest opportunity right now. And that's the most valuable thing we can put into the wellness economy is.

Our strategy being on TikTok and just having the megaphone and sharing, like, amazing content marketing. Right, that, that, that, that elevates the profession. Is that, is that kind of what you're saying?

I think that, I think that can be part of it. Maybe, maybe not necessarily. TikTok, like, that might be your secondary channel that you want to hang on down, but yeah, like turning on your camera and talking to people and, and doing all the things that facilitate and drive trust with your audience. These things are really, these things are really key. People don't know what naturopathic medicine is. When you have a physiological. Everyone knows what a physio is. They. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

No one knows what physiotherapists are either.

Well, but their authority figures do. So if your doctor says go to a physiotherapist, they're like, I'm here at the physio because my doctor, who I trust because he's my doctor, told me to go. Whereas what's not happening for the naturopathic doctors or functional medicine docs is I'm here because my primary care physician suggested that I come and have this transformational experience with you. So, so there's a, there's a marketing cost in the functional space that I would argue doesn't exist the same way in the physio space or in the dental space or some of these clinics that just have a different relationship with allopathic care.

Yeah, it's interesting to say that, you know, so do you see, like, right now, naturopathic medicine? Is it, Is it. Is there a billing code within, like, OHIP or like some of the other provincial provinces?

No.

Nowhere do you foresee a future of it that there will be or like, or.

No, no. I think that if there was a jurisdiction. The most progressive jurisdiction for naturopathic doctors in Canada is B.C. in terms of their, their scope of practice. I do, I think they'll continue to be progressive in their access to scope in bc. I do not think there's an appetite politically to, to have it covered. And certainly that door is closed in Ontario.

It's because of the doctors. The. Is because of the physicians. Right?

Yeah, there's a really strong. There's a really strong lobby opposed to that being covered by ohim.

Where's the lobby for the naturopath then?

Yeah, there's. There's just not as much money. Yeah, there's just not as much money. Like, I was on the political affairs committee for our federal association and our provincial association and the infrastructure of the other lobby Groups and the unlimited access to funding was like, it's, it's a notable, it's a, it's a noteworthy hurdle that needs to be looked at. I also think that you do not necessarily have the political acumen or appetite within, certainly the naturopathic community in Canada to be like, this is our main concern. And so if you don't have, if you don't have cohesion in that, in that lobbying effort, then it's also really hard to do it. But I, and I, I don't know if it's actually also the best solution for the businesses of those practitioners.

Well, the funding model may not work. Right. You know, could you, could you, as a naturopath, like, you know, could you spend five or ten minutes with someone and bill 30 bucks? Right?

Yeah, it's a huge, it's a huge challenge. But you know what? One of the things that I think indies are actually like, beautifully trained to be able to support is primary care and rural centers. So we have this massive shortage and we're trained and licensed as primary care providers. So we have this huge shortage certainly in Canada of, of PCPs in rural centers. And, and I think you have massive cohorts of NDs who would put up their hand and be like, I will take a salaried position and serve in that capacity in a rural rural center. And I think they would do an excellent job. So, you know, in our traditional delivery of naturopathic care, I don't see there being an appetite. I think that a gateway would be you leverage practitioners the same way you do nurse practitioners in a primary care setting. I think there's huge opportunity for that and B.C.

Is going to have to lead in Canada.

Pardon?

Do you foresee that happening in the next, like maybe five years or so?

I, I think that if we see that happening anywhere and modeled out, it'll be in bc, not, not in any other jurisdiction, by the way.

So I will let you know.

Yeah, yeah, you can, you can let me, you can let me know. Yeah, that's where, I mean, I, that's where I see it potentially being modeled out first, but they don't. BC currently does not have an overly progressive cohort of health leadership people in government. So.

Yeah, that's true. What about virtual care? Is, is virtual care something that has taken off since COVID for, for naturopathic docs?

Yeah, it's, it's amazing what happens to one's profit margins in a clinic or for solo practitioners if we incorporate virtual care. I mean, I had been delivering virtual care for like six years prior to Covid. And so it was like, so easy for us to transition and teach that piece when the world got, the world got shut down. It's a massive opportunity. I don't think practitioners love it. And I think all practitioners have a cohort of patients who don't necessarily. They want to see their, their practitioner in person. But the economics is really, really hard to ignore.

Yeah, no, like I was telling you, like, before we started the show, like, you know, you know, we've been in Italy for three months and now we're in the uk. My wife talking to her naturopathic, like, doctor, like over zoom, you know.

Yeah.

And she does, she's very comfortable with it. And you know, when she's, you know, in the city, she'll go visit them. But like, even when she's in the city, I think maybe, what is it? Maybe 20% of the time she'll do a, like in person visit in the 80s. Just like, I'd rather just do it at my home because I'm actually talk. Like a lot of. It's just like talking about things that is like, you know, that is bothering her. You know, that transformato stuff you talk about. Right. So. So right now, what do you think? Like, if you look at, if you're to like, estimate like all the naturopathic doctors in Canada, what percent do you think of their practice is virtual care right now? Is it like 10, 90, you know, 10%, you know, 20%, the average of all the practices?

I don't know, probably about 30, 30%.

That's way more than physical therapy or chiropractor.

Oh, yeah, because we don't necessarily have to touch people. Right. So it's, it lends itself beautifully to, to virtual care. Now there is, there's provisions like their licenses, like if someone needs to have a physical exam. How are you going to facilitate that happening? You, you have to be able to facilitate that, that piece of. But for the most part, you can deliver like 90% of your care virtually if you wanted to.

Wow. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It was kind of like during COVID the, you know, the. Oh, geez, the clinical counselors or like the whole mental health space, like, just took off, like, you know, virtually. Right. Like, it went from being, you know, in person to like 80%, like, virtual. Right. Like, even the therapist that I like, I talk to like maybe once or once or twice a month. Like, I, I just like, chat with her on the phone or like, I just do a zoom. Like, I actually, I don't think I've seen her in the last three years, like in, at the clinic, you know, and we live in the same city.

Yeah, no, it's, it's actually pretty incredible. We've got a few clinics that we're working with in the psychotherapy space. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm just not going back. Like why would I, why would I have a brick and mortar overhead or sacrifice my lifestyle or any of these, any of these pieces?

So do you see that as the future as well? For, for nds?

I think it will end up being a big part of the, of the future. I think there's some work to do on the delivery of the, of the user experience that'll have to be attended to. But like again, the economics are just so hard to ignore on that piece in terms of overhead and what that does for your margins and mitigating risk, that it's, it's hard to ignore that piece. At the same time, like when we look at practitioners and like why did you want to go into this? Yes, I want to help people and yes, I want to be able to have a profitable business. But I also like, I love going into the clinic and seeing my colleagues and having that collaboration and like being in real life with people. I know that, that like when we survey our audience, that's a, that's a really big priority for people and they're willing to pay a lot to be able to continue to have that experience. So I don't see the profession moving entirely, entirely online, but I certainly see a hybrid model moving forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you. The cost model for some of these naturopathic clinics is quite prohitive at a brick and mortar. I've seen a lot of them blow up in Vancouver.

Right.

Or in bc. Right. The bigger ones like, like blow up.

In a good way or blow up in a bad. What kind of blow up are we.

Blow up as like it was a big clinic and then it blew up to like, you know, bankruptcy.

Okay. The bad blow up, not the bad blow up.

Okay. Like, I know like I, I, I've, you know, like I, I, I, I've hired naturopathic doctors within a multidisciplinary clinic. It's a tough business to run, you know, like it's, it's quite, there's a lot of supplies. It's complicated too. Right. You know, it's not like, anyways, so, you know, it's, it's, you know, like they take up a lot of like Space as well. Right. You know, and, and like, they use that entire room for an hour or hour and a half.

It's not efficient. It is like. And I, that is one thing I keep saying to practitioners with so much love because they're like, I want to charge like $89 to make it accessible. And I was like, your cost of care deployment is so high and you carry so much risk that a financial risk independent of any of the other requirements, like, you, you just can't afford to deliver care at that price point. Like, you just. No matter how much you want to. And that's, you know, that's a huge part of our conversation with people is like, helping them understand what it actually costs them to deliver care because they're super confused about how, how am I charging this and I'm not bringing anything home. And so there's just where, where risk is the number one thing that's driving the cost of care in terms of naturopathic medicine.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. See, like, you know, we have this challenge with running clinics in our community too, because at least with a physical therapist or chiropractor, you're flipping those room like two, three times, like in an hour, you know. Right. Or you can use assistance where like, you could, you know, there's more productivity.

Right.

But like for a massage therapist or like a naturopathic doctor, you know, like, they're in there for an hour, you know. Right. You know, and because there's such a shortage of them too, where like, by the time you pay their, you know, like, you know, like 70 fee split, is it even a, you know, is it even a sustainable business model for the brick and mortar, like, business. Right. You know, so it's challenging.

Is that a question?

No, that's just my experience. But I wanted your thoughts about that. Right?

Yeah, yeah, it is, It's a, it's a challenging model. And so having a multidisciplinary practice where you have more efficient time, efficient practitioners in the space makes a huge, makes a huge difference. Having a portion of your revenue associated with virtual care makes a huge difference. Like, there's things that go into creating financial efficiency around that, around that model, but it is not, it's not an easy business model to be successful at. It's like, and I don't mean that as in, like, it just is. It's actually not easy. It's not. There's some business models that are so easy and it's beautiful. This is not one of those beautiful, easy business models.

Yeah, no, I hear you so I'm curious, you know, since we're talking about this topic, is it.

Are we podcasting right now, by the way? Like, what is it? Okay, great. I was like, what is happening?

Oh, we're just chatting, you know, we're just.

I love it. No, it's good.

Like, I'm actually genuinely interested in our conversation.

Yeah, no, it's good.

I haven't met a ND expert like you, and so I'm just fascinated with our conversation. But, yes, the podcast has started.

Wait, are we okay? Yeah, yeah, it's all good.

It started the moment it started, like.

The moment I figured.

Hopefully you're okay with that, you know.

Yeah, we're good. We're totally good.

This is real talk, Megan. I look you on Instagram like, you're all about the real talk. This is.

I am about the real talk.

This is as real as it get, does it not?

Totally. Totally.

So I'm super curious. So, like, so this is a trend that happens a lot in a lot of, like, you know, I'm gonna say, like, physical therapy clinics, you know, So a lot of these physical therapy clinic owners would, like, have. Offer new services, you know, so they'll offer chiropractics, you know. You know, and they'll offer massage therapy, you know, and so, and. And a lot of them have also considered naturopathic doctors as well. But I've seen it more fail than be successful. So I'm curious, in the future, do you think it's possible to grow a naturopathic, you know, service within a typical, like, orthopedic, like, you know, brick and mortar, call it physical therapy, multidisciplinary clinic. Is. Is that. Is that a. Do you see a future of that actually happening or. No?

Yeah, and I think there's really great precedent of, of how that. How that works. Where it doesn't work is when you have a transactional model of care and you're like, oh, you should go see our other transactional naturopathic doctor, because it's. It's out of step and there's no natural flow to that recommendation for patients. Patients don't really understand why they're being asked to go there. They. The patients haven't identified a gap or lapse in their problem. The practitioner actually hasn't. The, like, let's say physio in this case has not set that up well in the trajectory of care. This is the point. You're going to see the naturopath, and this is why. So I think I have a concept I call the line of fine. And the line of fine is where millions of patients are dumped every single day by the traditional system. And the way that we go to the line of fine is you go see your doctor and you have blood work done and you're exhausted, and they're like, listen, I've looked at your blood work and your blood works great. Like, you. Honestly, you're fine. You're probably perimenopausal. And the patient goes home and they're disappointed, and they're like, flipping through their phone like, this has got to be a better answer because apparently I'm fine, but I don't feel fine. Or it's the chemotherapy patient who was just finished their round of chemo, and they're like, what can I do now so it doesn't come back. And they go, listen, we're just going to watch it. You're fine. Like, stop stressing. You don't have. You're done. You're done. All you had to do was your chemo. And I could go on and on and on. But every day, millions of people are jumped at the line of fine. And on the opposite line of fine is the, like, legitimate. I want to build health. I'm done with this. I'm not having chemo again. What do I have to eat and take and breathe and do so that I. Right. So I. And that's not. That's not prevention. That is like the next step in their healing. So when you asked before, what's the difference between transformational care and preventive care, we don't dump them at the line of fine and go, now we have to do preventative health. We dump them at the line of fine and we go, what do we have to do for you as this n of one individual so that your cancer doesn't come back again? And there is going to be a series of steps we're going to take you through. And once we take you through those steps, like, you. You're not going backwards again. Like, this is like one of those crank things that, like, you can't. You can't tilt back. And I say this, and I give this. This context is the question was, we bring a naturopause and it fails and it's going to bring. It's going to fail. And every time bringing in a naturopathic doctor or a functional medicine doc or a nutritionist, when you're just making that referral without context for the patient's broader transformation, because they've never been spoken to in that context, and when we give them Context. When I tell you about the line of line and when I tell you about healing your body, you're like, oh yeah, that's totally what I want. I want to do that. But if we don't actually take the time to set that up for people, the only paradigm we've actually ever witnessed is this transactional model of care. And most physios, correct me if I'm wrong, are engaging in transactional models of care. So it's a big leap to get people to create buy in on the opposite side of the line of find that they were never told existed.

I agree. So what would the ideal workflow or user experience will look like? Okay, so let's picture. So I, you know, like, you know, I'm calling the clinic, I got back pain, but I want to play pickleball with like, like my senior friends, you know, and so call the clinic. Right. You know, and I'm booking my, you know, like at that point, like, what would, like, how would this transform or transformational care would look like in your world? And, and how like a naturopath and a physical therapist could actually work together with putting together that care plan, like in your ideal world, like, what would that look like?

Yeah. So, you know, part of that onboarding experience with that patient would mean that we have to identify the broader gaps in their health that are leading to this place of vulnerability. So this injury you have that's preventing you from having pickleball, here's what's happened on a localized level. Next layer out. Here's why it happened and here's why it's going to happen again. And so patients are always going to have the choice. Are we like, are we fixing. We can fix the problem and we can put the band aid on and we can like plaster it over. The hole is still going to be there. Do you have an interest in moving out to this outer ring and being able to support who had that conversation? Whoever your primary contact person is with that. With that patient. If it's a physio, it's the physio who's bought into the system. If it is, if it's the Cairo, it's the Cairo who's bought into whoever is their primary point of contact. If it's your massage therapist, which is like a great lead gen into your clinic, it's the massage Paris is like, I've seen you three times. This is a recurring thing down here. Can I just share with you, like, what would happen if we address the outer ring of what's taking place for Most patients. This is like, sure, no one's ever said this to me before.

Yeah. Okay. And then, and then, and then what would. So all that happens on day one, right? First visit.

Yeah, that can happen on day one. Probably the problem everywhere between, like, depends what your system and your methodology looks like, but probably anywhere between your first and third touch point is when that conversation would happen with a. With a patient. And it depends why they would come in. But let's say in the first three visits is when that conversation would happen, which is sort of that first delineation of, yeah, let's do this outer circle thing. I'm totally. I am done with having this ongoing injury. Let's look at what that looks like. Yeah, great. Physio says, I'm going to continue to see you because this is what our process looks like. I'm also now going to add an intake process with our naturopathic doctor and they're going to be running an adjacent program to what is going on so that we're addressing the outer circle. Does that work with you?

Then? There's actually two programs going at the same time, Right?

Two at the same time.

Then how do they work with each other as you're. Because, you know, like, like, how, how do they. Like, how does this. How do you foresee this happening? Like in. Yeah. How do they work together with the. With like.

Yeah, I think that, yeah, as soon as we start to be like, how do all the touch points and the communication and the blah, blah, blah start to play out? I think the reality is, operationally you have to run these now as two separate streams. You know, the naturopath is going to be dealing with basically everything other than the injury. And the naturopath knows your physio is managing the rehab of that joint.

Yeah.

And so we run these as two separate tracks. And if you want to talk about the patient over the water cooler because something came up, you can do that. As soon as we start to be like, we're having team meetings and we did this with this big multidisciplinary integrative clinic. It was literally called the Integrative Health Institute. And for seven years we're like, how do we maximize. Like, the point of. It's always hard. There's always transitions with respect to practitioners. If we actually just each understand what our respective methodologies look like as. As skilled clinicians, it's really easy to say this is the perfect jumping off point for you to work with R and D, because you are at risk for this continuing to happen. And our NDs understand their lane. Like the last thing I ever wanted to do was orthopedics. So when I had a few really great referral sources, when that would come up as an acute issue, I could send them to that physio. I knew that that physio was going to manage that joint and I could continue on my course of, of care. So I actually, I love the talking, but I don't think we need to necessitate it. It actually adds a whole layer of complexity and expense.

I see that. And that's why it fails, right?

That's why, yes.

So you're saying two separate tracks, you know, but just identify, hey, you know what, like physical therapists or Cairo or massage, you just like deal with the physical stuff or maybe like, you know, specific relating to just the back or that joint, what you said. And then like, you know, and then the ND will do like their thing based on their intake and what they find. Right. You know, like it's kind of the holistic picture.

Right? Yeah. And you know, one of the other reasons it fails is practitioners do a really poor job of explaining to people what their process actually looks like. And so no one actually knows how to refer in an interdisciplinary setting. Like we have an ATH here. I don't really know what she does. Like I hear that all, all the time. Right. She's been here for like five years. No one knows what she does. And you know, one, it's too bad you never take the time to learn. But mostly to that naturopath, I'm like, it is a huge red flag if your colleagues don't know what you do and you can't explain it to them in 30 seconds or less. And if every conversation opens with, well, it really depends on who comes to see me. If you are stuck explaining, you've lost them. So it's one of the reasons why we're like, what is your methodology and who do you treat and how do you get them? Well, because we understand that language. It's easy to refer to that.

Super interesting. And so, so would you make that first visit with a naturopath like like a free consult or like it's a paid intake. The reason I bring this up is that like this with, like we do this with massage therapy and it really kick starts. You're really. Yep. Your first one, like, you know, it's included in your, it's included in your care plan, like the first 30 minutes, like, you know, blah, blah, blah, is going to take care of you and then it runs on separate track. But then like they get hooked in on the two things. Right. Like, is that, would that work for the naturopathic world as well?

Yeah. So unless people already just have like so much demand from referrals, I actually really recommend people do like whatever we want to call it, like a discovery call or one of these like free opportunities to really share what your methodology looks like. And it actually can be done by the end or it could be done by a member of their, or their team if they wanted to do that. Price accordingly. Don't charge them extra for that piece. If you have a patient who's an ideal client and you like, you'll, you'll want to have the provision that people can just book their intake and, and off they go. Like, you don't want to create unnecessary barriers, but you're working with people. Like for me, even when my practice was full, I still actually took the time to do that discovery call because also I just didn't want to sit and spend that much time with someone who wasn't a really good like energetic fit. Because I just had some people where like, I, I actually don't want to spend 10 hours with you getting you like, this is just not going to be, this isn't, this isn't going to work for both of us.

Like a quick like discovery call to qualify to see whether there'll be a good fit for your practice. Right. You know? Right. Is that what you're suggesting? I love that.

Yeah. It's easy because you don't have to.

Do anyways, like you want to jump on a discovery call, you want to qualify them to see whether they're like a sales qualified lead or a marketing. So it's kind of the same.

Yeah. And some people are ready to go. But I found some of the most challenging patients. Well, one, like, I just didn't want to work with questioners. So people who had questions about every recommendation, it just wasn't a good, it wasn't a good fit for me. And I'm happy to answer your questions. I'm just not going to send you like a long email every other day when you have a new question about the one ingredient in your one supplement. It's okay. I have colleagues who can handle that. I just, I just couldn't with the volume of patients. So I like, I just, and I would ask people right up front, I'm like, tell me how you want to manage information and if it was a red flag, I'd send them to someone else. Awesome.

So, you know, I Think I'm. That I'm that type of person.

You want all the answers, you'll be like, yeah, it's terrible fit. Rick.

No, later.

Yeah, no, no, thank you. But I knew that about myself, so I just. I wanted to move. They were, like, super resource intensive. We didn't have this huge economy of scale. In my last clinic, I had, like, we ran this micro practice, and so I just wanted to send them to people who were going to be a better fit. And I have colleagues love that. Amazing. I've got people for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. I think we used to do these free consults, but for the. For the naturopaths, we would call it like a health check, you know, hey, by the way, it's included. It's included in your care plan. Like, you know, you got 15 minutes. We want you to get a health check from, like, the naturopath. Like, they're gonna, you know, like, bulba holistic care. Like, what do you think about that? Is that something that, like, would have, like, you know, by the way, I did that. I didn't take off. But, you know, I'm just curious whether, like, you think there is teeth to this.

I think so. But again, people have to understand the context of how seeing that naturopath is going to fit in terms of their. Their broader health journey. And so the thing about naturopathic medicine is it's not. It's not for the faint of heart. And sometimes we're our own worst enemies because the things we think are super valuable as NDs are the last thing patients want to do. So there's not a huge emotional investment to go see the Vizio. And. And I. I keep talking about physios because I know you work so deeply in that world, but it's not. It's not a big emotional. Ask for a patient to go spend 30 minutes with a physio and throw in a pair of shorts and have the ultrasound treatment and jump on the bike and then maybe ice and then maybe have a few other things. They're like, cool. I don't have to talk about my relationship or my partner or my bowel movements. You are focused on my knee. And then you go see the match path and like, we're gonna do this intake cyc. Gonna be so great. You're like, good. And you're in there 10 minutes. And they're like, okay, talk to me about your relationship with your husband. And you're like, what? I like, last week I was having my knee done and my physio said this was a good idea. And now, now we're talking about, now we're talking about my relationship. And then they're like, talk to me about your first period and talk to me about your, talk to me about the regularity of your bowel movements. And this, this is a massive emotional jump for people. And so one of the things we talk about in general with naturopathic do is like most people are not ready for that yet. So we talk about phases of care that patients move through and working with you, one on one is like the third phase of where they need to be in terms of a state of readiness to really benefit from naturopathic medicine. So you can't just tell your husband to go see the naturopath because you love her. He's going to sit there with his arms crossed the whole time and not answer any of your questions and not be compliant and be angry about it. And that's not going to give him really strong outcomes. So there's, there's different, it's a different level of health intimacy when you're working with an ND or functional medicine or do in this capacity that we also have to prepare patients for. And it will be an epic fail if you don't do that.

Wow, that was so much gold right there, you know. So Megan, if you were to start a naturopathic clinic again, you know, like how would you do it differently this time? Like, you know, like, and put your perspective as, you know, like this is a sole preneur practice. You know, you just open up like what are three things that you think like that sole preneur needs to do in the first year?

One, I think just what I was just talking about is. But the sheer recognition that most people aren't ready to see you right away is, is so important because it actually helps you set up what all of your front end education looks like. And so you're starting out your, your new practice. You need a capacity to be able to speak to people and educate people. And so that can be on social that you can pick your poison of what that needs to be the best poison. You need to educate people. I kind of like, I love social. It's so easy. It's just such a low barrier and it's like people get dumped at the line of fine. They are not even home. They go sit in their car in their place of frustration because they're just told they're perimenopausal and there's blood work's normal and they go to instagram like, they're literally like, I'm so angry. I'm just gonna do this for five minutes.

Instagram, you know, like just, just pull that little, like that metric.

Totally. And the first person who's like, I understand you're tired and it's not just perimenopause and I can help you, you're gonna be like, you are my person. Tell me more. Right. And we're like deep in it. So when you understand those states of readiness of your prospective patients, you can speak to them. So, one, I would understand not everyone's ready to see you one on one. And how the heck are you talking about them beforehand? Number two, I'd pick a target population. So one of the things that I think actually really facilitates and breaks trust early on is that not only do people not understand exactly what you do, but they definitely do not understand how you are an expert in 85,000 medical conditions all at the same time. And so when you're like, I can treat your acne or your cancer. I've got it all under control. Control. I understand that as a fellow nd how you can do that and address that holistically. Patients don't. And so if they've got a condition, they're going to look for the best person for their condition. So I, I really would, I would really lead. Lean into your target market. It's way too crowded out there for you to not.

What's the. What's the top. What's the best performing ones? The. What's the best performing niches within like NDs?

The more specific we can, we can be, the better. Skin. Skin is a really top performing niche. Fertility is a really top performing niche. Cancer is a top performing niche. Stop talking. Those are three top performing nations.

Yeah, interesting. So, yeah, so I, I interviewed someone that does what you do, except they like, they focus on women's health. And she said the exact same thing of what you're saying. You got to pick a niche, you know, and so I'm learning so much about all these niches because, like, I'm just like, I just want all the patients, like, pick a niche, whether it's menopause, skin, fertility, cancer, like, and just become that, like, subject matter expert, you know, like, so that like, and create really good content so people know what you do and who you are and they trust you. That's what you're saying, right?

Yeah. And I, you know, I'll add to that that there is, I always call it like the, the back door. There's like a backdoor way of selecting a niche, because one of the things practitioners will do, and they'll have a really strong emotional reaction to the word. And the second I was like, pick a niche. They're like, I'm not doing it. You're going to pigeonhole me. I don't want, like, there's just, there's this whole wall. And so my niche and my practice and my target market was entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

And the other way of niching is that you don't go after a specific condition. You go after a fanatical group of people. A fanatical group of people that have their own vocabulary and their own set of priorities and their own identity. And so, you know, I had multiple businesses, I had another startup, I had worked in tech. Like, I understood this world so well. And so when I would be like, pitching stuff, we'd be talking to other entrepreneurs and they're like, how are you not dying? I'm on my 20th pot of coffee. I'm like, I don't understand how you don't, like, eat well and exercise and take some mitochondrial support. And they're like, what is that? And so my whole practice was working with these people because I spoke their language, I understood what was a priority for them. I didn't tell them to stop working while they were in their series a raise. I said, I'll keep you alive for the next six months, and then you owe me some recovery. And so I developed a whole methodology that could directly speak to that particular population. I treated fertility, I treated the gut, I treated migraines, I treat. I wasn't pigeonholed, but I did not spend money in 85 different areas.

I. I like that. Going after the population. Right. You know, whether, like, you're going after this, whether you're going after, like the golfers or like that entrepreneur, or women, women that want to like, you know, like, feel young again in their 50s. Or men that want to feel like young again. Like. Right. Like that's kind of in terms of like, you know, so you don't have to go with the condition, but you can also go with population type. Right.

So, yeah, totally.

Geez. Cool. So that's number two. What's the third thing you would get them to do? Yeah, it's a really pick a niche. Right.

And develop a methodology.

Yeah.

And the reason I'd have you develop the methodology is right off the bat, it enables you to charge more than everyone else who's doing transactional care. So it increases what you are earning per touch point. With patient, it Also increases the longevity of that patient. So the lifetime value increases as well. The other key benefit of having a methodology is it is a key authority elevator in the marketplace. So people are like, I have a podcast, I'm going to write a book. Like, that's a terrible idea. Why don't you create a methodology in a system and then you are the author of that system. And when you're the author of that system, you can do all sorts of other things. But it's now a revenue producing authority tool, not a revenue sucking authority tool. Like a book.

Interesting. So is this a. Are you saying that like you create your own methodology and system and brand as yours? Not just like, not just like you're not saying like follow Megan's methodology, right? Is that what you're saying?

No, you build your own. It's the first thing we teach people how to do.

That was amazing. It's like, here's my fourth step. Like, you know, methodologies that no one in this plan actually does to cure cancer. Right. You know, yeah, not cancer. That's really hard. But maybe for titillating.

Right. You know, so what I figured out. Yeah, so no, that's like, that's the first thing we teach them to do. And you can be right. At a school, we work with people who are like, just graduated or we work with the people who have been in practice for 20 years are like, I can't see everyone anymore. We're like, okay, let's, let's build your system. And when you've built a system, you now build intellectual capital. And when you have intellectual capital, you have more options. And that's one of the things about this industry in general is we don't create options for ourselves. We like work forever. And I can't, I've got nothing left. And so this gives you more things you can do down the road.

This is amazing. You are like this amazing. Like I'm going to say it because like when I meet a really good marketer, like, I just want to acknowledge it because I, you are an amazing marketer, like personal branding person. So like I'm, I'm really enjoying this conversation, so.

Oh, thanks. This is fun.

Yeah, this is super, super cool. And so. Wow. Geez. Like, there's just so much area. Maybe one last, I'm respectful of your time. Maybe one last question is if, if you could spend 1000$, right. That would generate, you know, like sales for your practice, like next month, you know. Right. And put a perspective on Naturopath. Right. You know, what would you get what would you. And it's something else to give you roi. What would you get them to do that will generate sales for that $1,000, right?

Ah, it's a good question. I can spend this on anything?

Anything.

I hate opening things with it. Depends. I. I'd probably actually pay for boosted posts to your target audience. Like, if you had an. If I knew your sales page converted and you were good in front of a camera, I might spend it on ads. But honestly, I'd make some juicy posts and I'd have you boost them in front of your target market and I'd be prepared to talk to those.

And what's a good example of a juicy post? It's like you shouting out saying, here is my niche. This is what I do. Here's four things you could do today that will help you with your specific problem. Is that what you mean by like. And then if that does well organically, you're saying boost it so that more people see that, right? Is that kind of what you're saying, Megan?

Yeah, I would start with that piece. I mean by juicy, I mean not beige. Like, don't boost your post. It's like, here's how to slice your lemon for your lemon water in the morning. Like, no one cares. Like, cultivate their curiosity. Tell them something that they want to whisper with their girlfriends when they go out for their Christmas holiday lunch on Friday. Like, here's the one secret you need to know about perimenopause and make that a carousel post and boost that. But the other thing I would say to you is if you're like, I have to fill my practice in the next. In the next month, you can boost your posts all day long. I'd have you send one email. And that one email would be so simple and you wouldn't explain, but you would say, knowing you have your target market in mind. I am looking for five people who are interested in losing their Christmas five pounds in the next month. Here's the link to book or here's the link to reply. Sincerely, Megan. And it's those simple emails, not the. Let me tell you about how naturopathic medicine can help you holistically lose. Don't do that. Like, don't stop talking.

You know, like those long.

Stop it. Stop talking. And so I would boost posts from an awareness piece so that your people are always seeing you, but I would be sending out those emails every single month and change your symptoms so we can be like, who wants to sleep better? Who wants to lose the five pounds? Who Wants to increase their sex drive. Who wants to do this? And I would do that all day. I do that all day long. And once you know, you can convert people, we can throw money at things, but I just increase your awareness and give yourself an opportunity to talk to more people first.

I love that. I love that. And so how do people find out more about you and what you do? Because you're doing some pretty like awesome stuff. Me.

Yeah, thanks. Um, you can definitely follow along with me on Instagram. My handle is just at Dr. Megan Walker and Clinician Business Labs is on there as well. Or you can check us out clinicianbusinesslabs.com. cool.

Cool. And then do you work with a lot of multi discipline, multidisciplinary like practice owners, you know, like the two, three million dollar practices that maybe could use some of your methodology and create some of these like branded like, you know, systems?

Yeah, yeah, we do. It's sort of a sweet spot for us to be able to help out those, those clinic owners and really help them move away from just delivering transactional care into something more transformational. Yeah.

Have you, you're, you're out of, you're. You're in Ontario, right? Like in Toronto?

Yeah, I'm in Toronto.

You know, do you know, do you know like Mild Detox and like Vinnie and, and like, are you. Have you met these guys before?

Yeah, yeah, I've met their, I met their founder and I think it was Scott and their architect for all of their spaces. Designed our first clinical space and he's working on another project and designed my house. So we have an interesting overlap. But they have a really cool, they have a really cool model.

Yeah, because when you're talking about this, your branded methodology, like that is like what Mild Detox does. Vin's branded program. Like you know, and so they don't even call it physiotherapy, they call it like the Mile. Like, you know, when you go see some, someone at their clinic, you're a mild therapist, you know, and so like using their, you know, they go through their branded like, you know, and that's why like, you know, their business took off or their brand took off or their Instagram popped up and you know, like, so I've seen what you're talking about. Like, you know, now you put in context happen within the physical therapy in the chiropractic profession. So it's just cool, super cool that you actually create a product and a service that helps people do that.

So yeah, it's, yeah, it's super fun. Like, that's, I really love doing that. And you know, our industry and, and frankly our business, like we service probably 80% women. And one of the thing that would really break my heart is talking to someone who'd been in practice for 25 years and they're, they hadn't set their business up well, for sale. They hadn't thought about how they're going to mentor. They had no methodology and they reached the end of their career and they're like, I guess I'm just going to shut it down. And I really feel very, very passionate about helping individuals set up their business and set up their systems and set up their thinking so they have options down the road. To me, that is like the next layer of, of preventative medicine or the work that I do as a clinician is like helping other clinicians set themselves up for the future that way. So it's super rewarding work.

Yeah, love that. Well, thanks for coming to this show and yeah, thanks for your time and we'll see everyone next week on the Clinic Bot Show.

Thanks, Rick.

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