Episode 06: Vine Permaculture - Easy Backyard Permaculture, Education & Design

Hello listeners, and welcome to the Eco-ish Podcast. I'm Tracy Lydiatt, founder of Sustainable Living School and your host today. The purpose of Eco-ish Podcast is to illuminate the good work that businesses and organizations are doing to move towards sustainability, honestly discuss any trade-offs that they might wrestle with, and to create space for them to share their interesting stories to help listeners like you make informed choices. Eco-ish Podcast honors the imperfect journey towards creating an eco-friendly brand in an unsustainable society. On today's episode of Eco-ish Podcast, we're really pleased to introduce you to the permaculture designer and co-founder of Vine Permaculture, Cormac Harkin. So Cormac was an engineer for 20 years and he is currently transitioning into a full-time career of permaculture. He's been growing food in his urban property for a decade, has kept chickens, breeds worms, and loves making compost. He also has his own podcast called The Permaculture Vine that focuses on education, careers, and business advice. Korbeck is super passionate about helping people learn to grow their own food using permaculture through Vine Permaculture's Lunchtime Learning program on YouTube. You can find their channel at Vine Permaculture, V-I-N-E P-E-R-M-A-C-U-L-T-U-R-E. And in this program, he's put out how to grow an edible garden in 40 weeks, and it's free, and you can do it on your lunch. So it's really bite-sized pieces. So what is Vine Permaculture? It's a collaboration of permaculture designers Located around the globe, operating under one brand focused on permaculture design and education, and they offer permaculture consultations and designs for your property to help you grow food in an ethical and sustainable way using no synthetic chemicals. They also offer professional permaculture designer's kit, and soon they will be launching their professional course for certification soon. Hi, Cormac. It's so great to have you here with us today. I'm really excited for listeners to learn from you and have you on Ecoish Podcast and learn about vine permaculture. So can you tell us to start, where are you calling in from today?

I'm calling from Derry, Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland. Oh, this is great. I think you're my first UK guest. I recently talked to someone from Israel, so you two are over on the other side of the pond so far.

Yeah, across the Atlantic. Thanks very much for having us. Looking forward to it.

Hey, it was such a pleasure. I think one of the great things about podcasts is that they're borderless, and because we have such an amazing portal with the internet, people can access you and services and me from all over the world.

So, um, yeah, that works out with our designs as well. We can do them anywhere.

Yeah.

It's amazing what you can do.

I'm excited to talk to you about that. So I'm curious though, I was wondering if we could kick off with, could you start by telling us in your own words, what does your company Vine Permaculture do? Right.

Well, we have, there's two sides to our company. So basically we do permaculture property design services. And education for beginners. So if you're a homeowner and you're looking at your property and you want to grow food, and basically we offer that design service and basically helps you not to make any like big errors at the start. So we help you, like, it may sound common sense, but like put chickens beside your garden because the garden feeds the chickens, the chickens feed the garden, and then how you work through that space. So we'll take your specific property and your personality as well. We'll put your personality— are you a lazy gardener, are you an active gardener? And we'll take all these things into consideration, do a design for you, and then do an arduv and tell you how you can operate in that space. And then we also have the other side, as professionals ourselves and experienced designers, we noticed an opportunity then to help people coming behind us. So we have developed a designer's kit which is basically like a checklist. What do you ask people? What do you ask clients? So we basically brought our workflow and our processes, our checklist that we developed ourselves over the last couple of years, and we sell it as a kit. And we also have a PDCD Professional course that's coming out now in the next 6 to 8 weeks, which is basically for PDC graduates who have just graduated as permaculture designers. And bridge that gap to a professional designer. So how do you like digital design? How do you use Google Earth? How do you use all these tools that are available online? And that's, that's the two sides. So it's sort of two different sides, but there's two sides of the same coin.

No, that's fantastic. So what I heard you say is you have like a public-facing side that you help folks that are looking to grow food in their backyard, and then you have more of a professional-facing side that you've identified some gaps in the market of when you— and PDC, just correct me, acronyms are so fun. Sorry, Professional Permaculture Design Certificate.

Yeah, it's a Permaculture Design Certificate.

So if you're okay, good guess.

So a PDC is basically based around Bill Mollison's 72-week course, and there's 14 chapters— no, there's 20-odd chapters. And it's 72 hours of teaching. And then once you do that, then you're, you get your certificate.

Okay.

You're a certified permaculture designer at that stage.

And I wanted to maybe even like back the bus up fully to talk about what permaculture actually means, because potentially there's some listeners that might have seen the title and clicked on this, but don't actually know what the difference, for example, between somebody like myself that was just like, I'm going to grow some food, and I built boxes in my backyard and chucked vegetables in, versus if I had come to Vine Permaculture and said, help me design a gardening system. I think it would be really valuable to talk about that a little bit. What are the big differences?

So the difference— permaculture is like permanent agriculture. That's, that's the— and it was termed, I think, by Bill Mollison, who, who seen the destruction and developed the system along with a guy called David Holmgren in Australia. And he developed the system to, um, basically it is a systems approach to growing food. And also it starts off in the garden, but it grows up into other things like waste resources community, even finances, um, how we all interact together and how we treat the world. So there's 3 main ethics: Earth care, people care, and fair share. My fair share has changed, that's, that's a whole other argument, but it's basically the 3. So it's in everything you do, you have to look after people, you have to look after the Earth, and you basically can't be too greedy. Um, and then there's There's like, uh, 12 principles, for example, like observe and interact, obtain a yield. So it's, it's like a framework for how you live your life and how you, uh, as a consumer of food and inhabitant on Earth, how you use Earth's resources correctly and wisely to benefit people instead of just using and consuming. So when you start off in the garden, you start off with looking at a systems approach. So you would take, for example, your waste stream from your kitchen. So you would say, right, well, that's a waste resource. If that doesn't have somewhere to go for something to use it, well then that's waste.

Yep.

So what do you do then? You can either compost it, you can feed it to the chickens, you can feed it to worms. Then that produces manure, which then can be put back in your garden to grow your food. So there's a, as a closed loop system there. Yeah.

So yeah, compost, the stuff that comes out of your kitchen is wasted waste if you don't do something with it. And I don't know if listeners know this, but Paul Hawken and a group of folks published a book called Project Drawdown where they looked at 100 different solutions that exist today in order to massively impact the amount of GHG emissions, so greenhouse gas emissions, that we create as a society. No new technologies, no blue sky thinking. And the top 3 out of the 100 was stopping food waste from going to landfill. Because when it goes to landfill, it gets buried in with a whole bunch of other mixed things and it creates methane, which is, I think, like 20+ times more powerful than carbon dioxide for making climate change or greenhouse effect, which then creates climate change. So I love gardening and I, I feel like it's such an achievable shift in your behavior that compost, making compost or getting your food waste to a compost facility if you live in a city or a community garden is actually one of the most impactful things that you can do if you care about climate change and wanting to create a solution.

Yeah, well, the, the solutions are in the garden., and taking that wee bit of responsibility. And it doesn't take that much time as well. Like, that's the thing with the way— if you do a permaculture design on your property, it shouldn't take that much time because you're working with what you have and working with nature. The problem is when you work against nature and work against what nature wants and you fight nature, well, that's when you're inefficient and that's when it wastes your time. And waste resources. And as well, with permaculture, yes, they trap them gases. So if you take your food waste and mix it with straw, for example, or cardboard, which is a waste product, that actually, they combine together and that actually the carbon and the nitrogen combine and create the soil, which builds layers, which creates life, which is good for the environment. So you're, and you're not taking that waste off the municipality or a central location. You're not wasting diesel, you're dealing with your own waste. So it's a decentralized system. Mm-hmm. And that's where permaculture comes in over gardening is you're not buying fertilizers and you're not purchasing resources. You're utilizing community resources like cardboard, wasted, your bills that come in, shred them.

Yeah.

All the cardboard we buy. So just by making that, if everybody made that small 5% change and shift, it would be a massive, and then with that momentum, then you start getting into more things above that.

Yeah, that's such a great, that's such a wonderful and great point about the cumulative effects of small changes if it's widespread. So can you tell us a little bit more about how widely applicable permaculture is? Maybe some listeners are sitting here thinking like, well, I live in the city, maybe I'm in an apartment building, I don't have access to compost, or even maybe they don't even have space. What would you suggest the applicability is and what could folks like that that are listening do?

Well, it is applicable at scale and not at scale. So there's some composting systems, it's called a bokashi bin.

A bokashi bin?

A bokashi composter, it's called. And it's a, it's basically, it's a tub that sits there in your kitchen.

Yep.

So you don't have to have a garden and you put your food waste in it and then you put this type of bran in it and that, that composes and there's no smell and that, that'll decompose in your, in your kitchen. If you're not so squeamish, you can get worms. And a worm bin, and you can keep that in a closet, believe it or not.

Wow.

Most people might keep it in the basement. And then again, you can compost in the worms, you get the worms out, and then you can grow houseplants, you can grow microgreens. Uh, one example that you wouldn't think of was like if your house is moldy, say it's damp— Ireland's very damp sometimes— there's houses probably where you can get actually plants that'll help with your damp and suck that moisture out. So that's instead of buying a humidifier and putting it in your kitchen, you can get certain types of plant that'll help. So that's an application, just not about food. So that's permaculture. That's dealing with things in a natural way.

Right. And so what do you— those are great points. Well, I live in British Columbia. I'm in a pretty arid place, but my sister-in-law lives in one of the Gulf Islands and she constantly deals with mold issues and toxicity around it. So remind me to ask you what kind of plants those might be so I can pass that along. Not to put you on the spot. Yeah.

And there's other things as well, just the way you set up your house. Like, I know in some hot places, to keep the house cool, you would open the windows at night and close them during the day. That's, that's using natural systems. You're not relying on air conditioning, you're not relying on heaters. That's just a natural way. So that's, that's permaculture. That's, that's part of it. It's like using, using nature and using your brain, the big brain God gave us, and just, you have to use it.

Yeah.

And you're manipulating nature.

Yeah. Not, not fighting nature, but like working with it. And so I'm super curious if we could just double-click back on the, um, the bokashi bucket and composting in your house. I know some people might find that a little squeamish. So have you had experience with folks using an electrical— I know there's countertop electrical style compost machines. Have you had experience with the products that come out of those?

None at all. Is that the one that really, they increase the the composting speed.

Yes.

By heating it up.

Yes. And I think some of them have an agitator in them as well.

Yeah, I'm not— although my background's in engineering and electronics, I tend to avoid any gadgets I got.

Yeah.

Uh, like my compost bin out the back gets up to 70 Celsius, so it, it, it be really warm So because I'm using the right mixture and I layered and I watered, I look after it.

Well, it's good.

So you can get up—

oh, sorry.

Yeah, and it— and then it's— if you're using it, if you could— solar panels, so they have their issues as well. I'm not sure, I don't really have an opinion. I don't know enough about it to say it, but if it's encouraging someone to compost, is it such a bad thing, right? A few watts that they use composting, what's how many watts in diesel is that going to take to shift that away? And then they're getting compost out which they can use in their garden, which they'd always have to buy. So there's a— I think we have to avoid saying absolutes. It's a machine, so it's wrong. Yeah, there's a balance and you have to weigh it up for your own situation. Where I'm at now, does this make sense or does it not make sense?

Right.

And every individual makes that decision rather than a blanket rule for everybody.

Yeah. Which is what we started talking about in the beginning of the podcast. So yeah, I kind of put you on the spot. So thank you for that answer. And it just sounds like no matter where you live, there is some level of a solution for you and also some level of a solution that will match your— I think you said squeamishness of whether you want to deal with worms or have I have had a Bokashi bucket in the past. I lived in Australia for a couple of years and they were really popular back then. They were really easy to use. And I do know a few folks that have the countertop ones and just love it. So I guess it really depends on what solution works best for you.

Yeah. And microgreens is another solution too. If you haven't got much room, they're full of nutrition. You can grow them on your kitchen countertop. And then all you need is a south-facing window, they green them off. So that's, that's something you can do, and there you go, just added your salad. And even if you're just growing a few lettuce in your windowsill, you're doing something.

Yeah.

And another important sort of part of that question, or answer that question, is you do what you can where you are so that when you move, you don't wait to move somewhere to do it. Do it within your own constraints so that when you move somewhere, if you do move somewhere, then you can do more. You've already got the skills and you've already got some practice and you've already got that mentality so you can improve. So if someone who is thinks, oh, I don't have any room, well, the, the best designs are the designs with the most constraints because you have to design for those constraints and work within your system and constraints., and you'll get the best solution.

I love it. We always say that in sustainability as well, that it's creativity happens within constraints. And it's a wonderful point and a supportive point for listeners out there that are maybe they're in the city and they're like, I can't do this, this doesn't apply to me. It just really sounds like there's lots of baby steps that they could take. And I do know that when you pick food right away and you get to consume it right away, so say you get those microgreens in smoothie or you add them to your salad, the nutritional density and the taste is just so superior beyond anything that you would ever get from the grocery store. And I feel like that's such a huge win for when we're investing in our own health by eating the food that we grow. And this kind of like leads into my broader question that we've, uh, that I wanted to ask, which is what other ways do you feel like permaculture helps folks make eco-friendly choices in their life?

It helps you. You're growing your own food, so it's the food miles, the energy that costs. As you said, the nutritional density— you're healthier, you're happier mentally, you're stronger. All these human benefits are there, and that leads you to be a more positive person and have a more positive outlook. And it can be it can be applied to a lot of situations and a lot of circumstances, a lot of scales.

Yeah.

Um, so it makes you think once you start down the road as well. It's like that, you open the door, the sort of thin end of the wedge.

Yeah.

So you start questioning, like you said about the, the first time I tasted one of my own grown lettuce, I couldn't believe that lettuce actually tasted of something. And that was like Oh, that's nice. What else am I going to grow? And then you eat that and you go, oh, this is, this is amazing. Then you just— it sort of keeps going because then you realize it starts opening your eyes to what the world is. And then it starts— you start making more eco-friendly choices. And it doesn't have to be— you don't have to be an eco-warrior or an extremist. It's just, this is natural food, this is natural systems, this is the way we're supposed to live. This is the way, this is our base layer. We've been thrown off course for some reason, and it's about getting back to that sort of base way of living with, with the land, with nature, and be a part of nature.

Absolutely. I was thinking when you were talking about lettuce, I had that same experience when I grew some strawberries for myself a couple years ago. And when you pick strawberries off of the vine and they're like warm from the sun and you eat it, It's just like a flavor explosion in your mouth. And I remember thinking like, I don't remember berries ever tasting like this. And it's such a great analogy, I think, for, um, exactly what you just said. It like blows your mind open to the possibilities of improving your health and enjoying food. And then also as we like travel further down that pathway, like what you were sharing is that It makes you start to think about, like, well, how many times do I drive to the grocery store a week? Can I cut that down? Am I spending, you know, and fuel is so expensive right now. So one of the things I really noticed with growing food in the backyard is like how little I go to the grocery store during the growing season. And it's actually really pleasant other than like not running into folks that I might want to see in the grocery store. I live in a small town, so it's like super social. Like sometimes it takes like an hour to get your 15-minute grocery shopping done because you run into all these people that you want to talk to. But besides that, it's really nice just to be able to walk out into the backyard and grab food and, um, be part of that closed system. And I mean, I'm a bit of a nerd because I think about this all the time, but I, I do know people that are starting down that path and are starting to understand the benefits and One of the things that really struck me about permaculture and what I'd love to talk to you about is efficiency and how— so for example, my garden is in square boxes right now and I've laid out what I could with watching the sun. But I think permaculture takes it one extra step. And I really was wanting to hear about a type of garden, say, for somebody that might have a backyard, maybe have a single-family home, they have some room. How would approach designing a garden for them specifically about efficiency and systems?

Yeah, the first approach you have to basically, there's a few basic questions you start off with, and that's, so you have what type of gardener are you and what type of garden do you want? Are you an energy bull who just has to be out in the garden 16 hours a week? Or are you someone who just wants to go out and just relax and maybe do an hour here and an hour there? So it's about finding your level of energy and, and your time commitment. So then that sort of tells you in a balance of basically annuals to perennials. So annuals are something that you plant every year. Mm-hmm. They're a bit more work, but you can get a lot out of a small space. So an annual would be like a carrot or potatoes. Lettuce, you just, you plant them, you harvest them, and that's it, eat them. Well, whereas a perennial is more of a, it, you plant it once and it'll give you a harvest over many, many years. So like a fruit tree or berry bushes. So what do you want to do when you're designing the places is, is get a balance of them just to suit the personality of the client. Then you have to take into consider ration, the grow zone, what, what you can grow. Where is the garden located? Uh, is it basically like in the Northern Hemisphere for us? If it's a south-facing garden, that's great, you get plenty of sun. If it's in the north, it's like, oh, it could be more of a problem because you're reducing, because it'll be in the shade, right? Or is it far enough away from the house that it doesn't cast any shade? Is there any obstructions? Is there big trees about? So basically what environment is the backyard in? Mm-hmm. Then you look at the, the sun, uh, the orientation of the sun, how much sunlight they get, and then you have to select the right plants for that balance. And then also the right design. Some people like square gardens. That's just, and, and some people don't. Some people like the big mess.

Yeah.

So you just have to find a combination for that individual. So what we'd suggest is a, is a mixture of the two. So you'd have like, um, I don't know if you're familiar with guilds of plants.

Guilds?

Yeah. So a guild of plants is you plant basically 6 or 7 plants together. Each plant has its own specific function.

Okay.

So like, for example, like an, uh, let's just take an apple tree guild. So you have the apple tree in the middle and then you have all this space underneath. So what do you do with that space?

Mm-hmm.

So we want to utilize that space. So we may grow some, uh, plants in there like repellents to scare, uh, take insects away.

Okay.

So some good repellents are garlic. Garlic will, uh, repel, so that you may repel some pests. Then you'll grow some flowers and the flowers will bring pollinators in.

Yeah.

So they'll bring the bees and the wildlife in. So what do you want to do is then you create as like a, a little haven for all these insects. And a, like a small guild or a small, like an individual ecosystem.

Yep.

And that basically— Apple tree underneath an apple tree.

So beautiful.

So then you have the shade, so like you could throw some strawberries in there, raspberry bushes, edible flowers like nasturtiums. And then all of a sudden you have these 6 or 7 plants which are acting together and helping each other out. And then that protects the plants, your harvest, then from— it makes it harder for predators to zone in to that nice lettuce of yours and eat it. Uh, um, so that's, that's where we sort of put, put gills. So we're planting gills, and you can do this in like a circle, you can do it in rows.

Very cool.

And then you would put annual beds in throughout that.

Yeah.

And then the more Um, uh, the more concerned or the more sort of somebody who wants to grow all their own food and be more self-sufficient, you would grow more annuals. Yeah, like, uh, potatoes or turnips, stuff that you can grow and store through the winter.

Yes.

So that gives them that store. And then of course you add animals under that design.

Okay.

Animals are great for fertility in your garden. So like I said, chicken manure, rabbit manure, worms are really good if you're really stuck for space, cuz you can put the, you can compost in your annual bed.

Yeah.

So basically put a pipe into the ground so you can see there. It's like a, it's like a con— you're like a conductor trying to balance all these pieces. Totally.

And you, so I heard you just say that you could literally have a worm farm underneath an annual bed.

Yeah, so if you have a really super fun, uh, and it's particularly good in really, really small spaces and you have no room for animals or you don't want rabbits or chickens.

Yeah.

And what basically it is, it's a 6-inch pipe you just put down the middle of your bed.

Yeah.

And you put holes in it and then you put a cap on it. So when you, you're finished with your, uh, your kitchen waste, you open the cap, put your kitchen waste down, put some cardboard or straw put the, uh, your, your worms are already going to be in there from— you buy worms, composting worms. Yeah, put the lid on and that's you. That's— they'll eat the worms and then they'll go about your bed, uh, laying their waste in the bed, and that fertilizes your bed.

Oh my God, I love it so much. It's like super sleuthy worm composting while growing food on top of them. That's amazing because I also think Like, that makes sense to me. I feel so— I was— I had a worm farm at one point too, and I felt so bad for them because they were in this tiny little plastic box, which I know they don't care about because they're just doing their thing. But I love that idea. So thanks for sharing that part. I wanted to ask you if you had— one of the questions I ask is what are your biggest wins to date? And so I'm curious if you have like a case study that comes to mind about a massive transformation or something that you just consider? I'm just putting words out there, but I'd love to hear what you think about what a big win has been for you.

Um, a big one personally for, for the three, the three of us who started this is just getting to where we are now. So we've basically started this as a, as like a side hustle.

Okay.

And now we've got from We're basically with regular content going out now. We have our podcast goes out, we have our Lunchtime Learn, we have a blog. So we're putting out a lot of content, we've got into a good rhythm now, and it's only 3 of us. And so I'm particularly very proud of where we've got in such a short space of time for only having 3 of us. Um, so that's definitely a big one. And then I feel like we're in a position now to contribute more to our community. And sort of be a voice to encourage people to actually start growing. So we're able to know we've done a, we've done a good, um, I think we've done a good, uh, like a portfolio of work that come out we can now start to share with people.

Yeah.

So to get in that place to be able to help more people. So we're helping gardeners try to transition to permaculture gardening, and we're also in this place now that we can help our professionals who are coming behind us to get them up to speed so they can go out and design gardens and sort of have that groundswell of movement.

Hmm.

That's a big one for me anyway.

Yeah. That's such a, it's like indirectly impacting so many people as you're pulling, you know, as you are elevating, you're pulling people along with you and helping them rise and I just truly believe that that's such a wonderful value to have and a way of contributing to society and really building like trust and trusted relationships around you. So, you know, congratulations to you and your team for doing that.

Thank you.

That's a huge thing to say and be— you should be super proud of yourself. Um, I— right. So then is it kind of like being a lawyer? Like you go to school to be a lawyer and you come out, but you don't actually know how to be a lawyer, like professionally. Would you say that that's the gap that you're filling?

Well, it all depends because like, um, you can—

you—

some people who have been practicing permaculture for 20, 30 years and then they go get their Permaculture Design Certificate, and then you get people who have no nothing about growing food and then get their certificate. So you can see there's a big gap. They're both qualified but they have different range of skills. And then particularly now with the There's some designers I've met who have like 20 years experience but can't use a computer, right? So they, they hand render all their designs. And when you're hand rendering a design, if the client wants to change, you have to redo all your drawings. Whereas if you do it digitally, you go on and make a 5-minute change, and you can actually do it while the client's on the phone with you, or on Zoom. You can be showing them the screen and say, right, we'll move this, we'll move that. And it's just bridging that gap, and it's also speeding up the gap to enable them to say, well, to, to show a company, a design company, say, look, I've done this course, here's the, here's the syllabus, and here's where I'm at as a designer. And just as like an aid for them to get employment.

That's wonderful. It sounds like it's a much-needed service and, uh, that you are meeting people where they're at. So that's always—

that's actually what— that's what one of our sort of internal sayings is. You have to And you have to grow, you have to meet people where they're at, where they're growing, their situation, where they are. Are they in a flat with a balcony, or are they in a big piece of land? You just meet them where they're at and take it from there.

Yeah, no, I think that's wonderful. And, you know, I think one of the things that people stumble, stumble along with sustainability, and, you know, I don't think that the mass media is really excellent at helping people feel like they're doing it right because there's always a particular way that comes across. Like, if you're not doing it this way, then you're like a bad human. And I love— I always say there's always a solution. And one of the things I often say too is like, you have to do what you can in your context and just forget the rest because everybody lives in a different place. It's a different culture. There's different, you know, everything's different for each person. They might have different budgets. And I love that you take that approach too with growing food and helping folks.

So yeah, for us it's just about, uh, I'm not sure the guy said it, pushing the needle in the right direction. So just gently pushing people, because I think if you push them too hard, they're just going to push back against you. So it's just showing people the way that this— look, gently persuasion rather than this hardline approach that sometimes you see. And, uh, we've had some, uh, Conversations on that online.

I can, I can imagine. Well, and it's— I'm sure it's hard when you, um, when you're passionate about something and you want to help people kind of raise their awareness around it, and I'm sure the passion just comes through. So that's—

yeah, it's about— and then once you start meeting, people get enthusiastic about it, they want to grow, but sometimes that they just it's, it's too much information. It's, it's just too much for them, and they, they get paralyzed by what do you do with all this information. So what we want to do is provide that information in small chunks. Yeah, for on our free— we have a free course, a Lunchtime Learning we call it, and it's basically 20 minutes a week where you go on, it's free. And then if you want help from us, then we'll provide you that professional help. So it's, again, if you want it for free, it's there for free. And if you want more help you can avail of the service, which again, a lot of people appreciate. I think it's just that, uh, you meet them where they're at and what they can do.

Yeah, it's fantastic. I, um, I can personally admit that I'm a terrible green thumb and it's one of the places that I'm learning to get better in my own life. And I've been growing food for a couple of years now. Um, and it's such a learning journey of like what fails and where things go and I didn't design mine with permaculture in the background as the base theory. So I'm really actually personally looking forward to starting on your 40-week free journey. So, and I think you're really going to help so many people with that offering. But before we kind of go down that rabbit hole, because I have like so many questions that I'd like to ask you, and I'm just noticing too, is it on this side? I have a little angel beam coming down. It's beautiful and sunny today. I hope it's not too distracting.

I haven't even noticed it.

Oh, good. Okay, good.

So speaking of inspiration, what was the driving factor or spark that helped you start Vine Permaculture?

I was working as a designer, so we were working professionally as designers. And when we graduated with PDC, what basically I did was I was watching a podcast and I came across the, um, I can't remember what you call it now, Bootstrap Farmer was doing a presentation on a company in Texas that basically installed edible gardens for people. So when I graduated, I had all the tools and I just said, right, I built myself a website and thought, right, that's it. And then crickets, nothing happened. And then that led to some freelancing work. And then once I built my sort of— I built a sort of close network then of designers, and we're just talking in general. And it's always sort of frustrating, frustration on our own journeys, but we had to figure out this for ourselves as designers, that the checklists weren't there or they weren't suited for us. Um, like, what do you ask clients? Where do you get that information? And basically, instead of a design taking, say, 20 or 30 hours, how do you streamline that process to make it 10 hours, which improves your hourly rate? And then we thought, well, why don't we offer this as a service that we can design and sell this as a package? Because you're offering value, you're speeding up someone's learning curve. And why not share the information for people coming behind you? And then it was like, well, that's okay, we'll do that. Uh, and as well, where Crystal has, uh, our co-founder, she has 3 PDCs, she has 3 qualifications, and she was doing an education PDC at the time as well, which is like a teacher's qualification. Okay, so she was already developing a free special ed course, uh, to offer. So we thought, right, we'll build these courses out, um, and we'll see where it goes. And then because we offered— we were doing design services anyway, we thought, well, why don't, why don't we offer that? It makes sense. Doesn't make sense to have a business and not offer these services. So we could combine the two. So it was inspiration, really, just seeing a gap and then saying, well, we can design, and just tacking that on. And that's— but then that's developed over the last 12 months now on the offering the free courses and There are things we're doing now online.

Well, it's fantastic. Thank you for sharing. And it, of course, it makes sense that you would have a collective of permaculture design professionals working together, and it's like you're living your values, and nothing in nature operates in isolation. So I feel like networks and collaboration are the way of the future that way with a whole bunch of different industries and activities.

Well, we were finding as well within our own localities that basically, um, different circumstances for different people, but one was they were afraid to go out and get work because they couldn't handle all the work.

Okay.

And it was like, we're all working in isolation, although we were doing the freelance work together. Freelance work was for a US company, but I'm here in Ireland. And slightly isolated. So how do I build my business, build my brand? So then I had to go out and build a brand, and then somebody else had to go build a brand. And we thought, well, why don't we just build the brand together? And we all operate independently but under the same brand, and we contribute to building that brand up. And so there's 3 co-founders, and then we also brought other designers in, uh, like we have a designer in the Philippines, Renee, She doesn't digitally render, but there's opportunities for work there. So we pitch for work for her. She does the site visit, we do the digital rendering, and everybody a winner. And then that means that she can concentrate on spreading the word and spreading the message of permaculture throughout the Philippines. And then we can do the work in the background, and then we can all manage peaks and troughs. So we have a designer in Zimbabwe as well and another one in Germany, and it's a summer thing providing them a platform. So the guy in Zimbabwe has— I don't know if you know, there's power cuts and technical difficulties there. So through him working for us, we— it acts as a buffer for him so that he's, he's not constantly affected by that, them power cuts.

Oh, the power cuts.

Yeah, yeah, that there's rolling power cuts in Zimbabwe. And there's, in Africa, there's certain limitations to getting things done.

Yeah, that's true.

So we provide him that buffer of having a brand and having a place to hang his hat effectively and say, yes, I'm part of Vine.

Yeah.

And then he doesn't have to worry about branding or internet being up, or, and then he does posts for us and contributes to Lunchtime Learning. So we're all, we're all in a different place, but we're all sort of clubbed together. And we're hoping to bring more people on as well as we go.

That's fantastic. And it sounds like the collaborative energy is very equalizing so that you're filling in gaps where somebody might have a challenge like rolling power cuts.

Yeah.

I have a friend that lives in South Africa, and I've had a couple of my phone calls interrupted by those power cuts. So I can imagine it's a pain in the butt to be on a Zoom phone call with a client or something, and then all of a sudden your power goes out. So yeah, yet another sustainability issue to, uh, that we can talk about.

And as well too, that— yeah, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I was just saying the energy levels as well helps because not everybody's firing all the time at all cylinders. So we have private life, you know, personal lives, and yeah, sometimes some people are picking up more slack than others and it all evens out in the end.

Yeah, well, it sounds like a great collective that you've got going, and I'm excited to hear about its growth in the future. And I'm sure that those wins haven't come with hurdles or trade-offs, which is something that I'm actually deeply passionate about talking about and why I started this podcast is because there's always trade-offs in sustainability when you're trying to build in an unsustainable system. So I'm also curious, not to dampen the mood, but I'd love to hear the, as you said, the flip side of the other coin. Were there like significant hurdles or trade-offs that you had to manage in order to get where you are today?

Well, we've always had the attitude from the very beginning, it's family first and health first, because you're no good to anybody if you're sick or you're fighting your family, or it becomes a pressure, becomes a burden. But that's not to say we weren't ambitious either, and we weren't sort of pushing. So we were pushing ourselves, but being very aware of, right, it's time to take a break. Or if somebody was like, for example, the launch time there, and it was supposed to be out on a Thursday, it doesn't go out till Saturday, it's like, ah well, it's like, it's not the end of the world.

Nobody's watching.

So it's like that sort of attitude, and it's like, well, just relax about it. It has to be— it can't be a burden. It has to be— it has to be doable. It has to be fun. But the biggest problem is, is some people's attitudes, uh, and it's shocking really. It's— and I, I had to block someone recently on Instagram because I, I shared a, um, uh I shared a thing for a company called Seeds for Sustainability, and they do like a— I'm doing a course with them on it on environmental, social, government, and governance, and the CSR, corporate social responsibility. And I had never— I've only started learning about it, and it was only a term that I was introduced to about a couple of months ago. Now, I don't know that's a bad thing or a good thing. I was just learning about it. So I shared the thing and The guy got really upset and saying it was a corporate scam and it's, it's all this stuff. I was like, I don't know. And then he started messaging us and I was like, just go away. And I was like, I'm just learning about this. I shared something. I'm not, I'm not a bad person. I'm not a corporate shill. And he just went from zero to 100.

Oh dear.

And, uh, as well too, in the early days, sort of doing some sort of initial market research and it was like permaculture, you're not allowed to make money from permaculture.

I was like, you're not allowed to make money from permaculture?

Yeah.

And that's like, who makes these rules? And it's like, part of perma— one of the ethics is you have to produce a yield. Well, a yield is a profit.

Yeah.

So I need to produce a yield from my energy, my life force, or my work. So a profit— you can't be ashamed of making a profit. So what would you rather do? Go and work a job that I don't like, that's actually not, not healthy for me and not doing good, just so I can practice permaculture on the weekend? That should be free.

Mm-hmm.

And I was just— and this has happened 3 or 4 times. I never fail to be amazed at how they're just— people just get so entrenched. They say, my worldview is the worldview.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, I respect— that's okay, that's your worldview. But we can't— all as humans, we're— there's millions of us, and every one of us is in a completely different place. Yeah, again, so as long as we're pushing that needle, right, towards going somewhere in a positive direction— well, until I see that that's not a positive direction, I'm going to keep going in that way. And you can't claim to be an expert and the rule maker and telling me that I'm not allowed to do what I'm doing because I'm not allowed to make a profit out of permaculture. And it's like, I'm sorry, I disagree, wee.

Yeah, and it's, it's a really valid point that you bring forward. I'm so glad you brought it forward, um, because I feel like, you know, in some spiritual communities it's that way too. Like, you, you shouldn't make money if you're like a healer or you are I don't know, you do yoga or something. There's like this weird ethical morality, uh, conflict that people get into. And it's similar with sustainability as well. And I often talk to my guests about the fact that part of being sustainable is that you can exist financially and that you have financial sustainability and that you are successful because The conversation shifts a little bit when maybe you're like a big oil and gas company and you're having like windfall profits from doing your business activities and you're making billions of dollars versus somebody that's maybe making— one of my guests, for example, has a social enterprise out of India and he makes compostable and biodegradable plates that are swapping out like paper plates and plastic cutlery. And so how can we judge somebody like that who has to use systems like Walmart and Amazon that are in place to expand his reach and to make money? Is it not smart of him to do that? It's— and it's because it's helping him make money, and most of the money that they create is profits helps support his family, but then a lot of it goes back to India so that they can expand their social enterprise. They specifically work with women. Like, there's just so many benefits. And so I feel like when you reach a judgy person like that, or have like somebody like that you just shared in your experience where they were like, you're not allowed to make money, or, um, you know, having a judgment about it, I just, I feel like it's a really unfair and a very biased position to come from. Because they're not really actually looking at what you're doing and all of the multiple wins on different levels that you're creating. I feel like it shouldn't be such a struggle for folks like yourself that are working on like, how do we give back to the earth? How do we regenerate, you know, things that we've damaged and help people understand how to interact and like be healthier with the earth and food that they can grow? And like, yeah, it's all— it makes me really mad, as you can hear. I'm very chatty about it. So No, it—

and, uh, I just look at it, it doesn't bother me, I just be amazed at it. And I always think the end of— well, for these sustainability issues, and Frosty Tagle there, so she's— you need people out there promoting this stuff. And you— like, it's like an oil tanker, you're not gonna turn it, it's gonna— it's gonna have to go to sea for a couple of miles to turn around.

Yeah.

And you can't just force people and they changing their complete lifestyle because one, it's very dangerous if you just stop doing a certain thing. Well, you create a void. So you need to— it has to be a slow, sustainable approach. Yes, but it has to be sustainable change. So you can't just change for the sake of changing and leave nothing in its place. And the people who suffer, the people who are suffering now in the less well-off regions, they're always the ones who suffer. And if you go too extreme Well, it's, it's not really fair on anybody, and it's not, it's, it's not going to work. So you need people out there and earning an income. You need to be making these careers available to people and out spreading the message and getting compensated for it. And I have no problem if I can help someone. I'm actually— the way we look at it, we're saving people money, because if you pay for design, you're paying for someone like we have over 70 designs between the 3 of us. So we have a wealth of experience in different grow zones and we know how to put these designs together.

Yep.

But if some individual, so we're paying, we think it's a fair price for what we're providing and we have checks and balances. So if I do a design, someone else checks it just in case you miss a plant or you get a wrong species or you, you just know it's, it's, there's a QA process.

Yeah.

So the pair— the client gets that work and they know that that work is good. All right. Or a client could spend 3, 4 years going and making a big mistake, like putting the chicken coop at the bottom of the garden, 500 yards away, where they, they don't visit it every day. Yeah, they're not looking after— they're not passing their garden, they're not walking through it, they're not using it. So we call that in design as a Type 1 error. So you have a big chance, and that'll cost you money. And you could even go higher. Some people like spend thousands on building a pond, and they put the pond where water doesn't want to be, or the soil's wrong, and it costs them tens of thousands then. Yes, the remedy.

Yeah, so there's a— keep the chicken ladies happy.

Yeah, so there's a clear value exchange there. Yeah, so I'm actually saving some of my money, time, and hassle So why shouldn't I charge? That's why we have no problems whatsoever charging for stuff. And we're providing as well with the courses, we're charging for the courses because the courses are providing value. We're not forcing anybody to buy them. They're there if you want to buy them, if you don't, you don't. Plus we're also offering a lot of free stuff out there for people to get started. So there's no— to me, there's there's a mixture there and you take what you want and you leave it.

Exactly. It's a great balance. So thank you for bringing that forward. And it makes so much sense, especially if you do have the space and the interest to do swales or ponds or have a more integrated animal system. Of course, the value that you would provide upfront, a small investment in design services is going to pay, as you said, out over many, many years because you're putting your foundational structures in place and not having to move a pond or digging your swales, your water collection structures in the wrong place, or alienating your chickens that don't want to walk so far to the garden. So yeah, that's super cute. It brings, uh, what's that movie, Chicken Run? I think Mel Gibson was in it. Um, Did you ever see it?

It's like, I have seen it. That was a few years ago.

It's like from the Wallace and Gromit creators, I think. Yeah. The claymation. I just, I love chickens. I could watch them all day.

So, and that's the thing, be careful when you start in permaculture cuz you end up loving chickens.

Yeah, that's right. A friend of mine in Australia had chickens. She in Perth, we lived in Perth and she, I think you were allowed like up to 4 backyard chickens and she had 2 and then her mom moved and so she consolidated her mom's John's chickens and her chickens, and they called them us and them, and they never ever interacted. So we would just go over to her house and sit and watch us and them walk around and ignore each other. So yeah, it was—

yeah, chicken TV.

Yeah, chicken TV was great. Um, so I'd love to just ask you one final question because we're nearly at time here, and, um, I wanted to ask you If you could just like pick up a paintbrush and paint your ideal picture for Vine Permaculture and the future of your company, what does that look like to you?

Oh, we've just been able to sustain ourselves in business and just build a bigger community around just getting more people in the garden and using that as like a, as a, is a way to introduce people to sustainability and start to think about bigger issues in the world. And it's just like, it starts in the garden. I think one of the permaculturists says like, sedition starts in the garden. You, if you're gardening, you're not contributing to all these big bad corporations. You're actually just sorting yourself out. You're taking responsibility. And the benefits of that are enormous. So it's just basically helping more people. And as well, what would be really good is helping more designers get in the business and seeing more permaculture businesses grow up and expand. And not just through design services or installation services, but like we're hoping to build a network of, say for example, you're a copywriter and you're a permaculturist. Well, how do you sell your services to permaculture businesses? Providing them links and providing them networks that you don't necessarily have to do the same thing. So we all have different skills and different backgrounds. Like, my background's in electronic repair, so that goes on the sustainability that, you know, starting up workshops or workshop repair and repairing your things that lasting longer. So it's bringing all these sort of skills together in a melting pot, and that would be really good if we get a built-in network of designers who came and done our course, went on to different things, but we're able to sort of bring them under the Vine sort of wing and Vine brand. So they save them going out and doing all that work again, they just join us. And, uh, so that's the best they got. And then we have a— the way we operate it is we have an affiliate program. So if you— oh, it's not set up yet. So basically, if somebody joins us and they get a sale They get 10% straight away, then they're part of the design team. We only take a small percentage just for operating costs, and then they get the majority of them goes to the design team. So it's all open, it's all upfront. That's the way it is. So we're not being greedy. We just want enough to just sustain ourselves and earn a living and basically do this 20 hours a week and then work on our gardens the other 20 and be happy.

That's a beautiful life balance to go for. And thank you so much for sharing your vision. And to sign off, I would really love to invite you to share with listeners, how do they connect with you and how can they access your free course online? And I will also put for listeners, I'll put the show notes below. So if you miss the links at all or you're a visual learner, you'll have access to that too.

Yeah.

So the Lunchtime Learning, it'll be on our YouTube channel, which is @finepermaculture on YouTube.

Okay.

And then our blog and our everything else is over at finepermaculture.com. We're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, LinkedIn, Twitter. So we're on all them for various different stages of development, but finepermaculture.com, you'll be able to get all the links over there.

Awesome. And yeah, covering all the bases with social media.

Yeah, it's taken a while. We're sort of, we're learning, let me say, about just different marketing techniques and we're sort of hoping to share these as well and put these on our course. 'Cause it's all, well, this new ChatGPT tools, everything's changing and SEO and it's a lot to take in and we're sort of just trying to get on top of it, experiment. That's why we're on all the different platforms to see what works, what doesn't work. We'll try, we're noticing what type of content works better and what gets more views. And then so we're sort of trying to build a knowledge base of that too, that we can share with others in the space.

Yeah, well, I feel like that's such a valuable thing because it's changing so quickly. And if there's any permaculture design professionals out there, that would be a really attractive thing if I was one of them to join along with your group. And leverage my knowledge and try, just trying to stay on top of everything is a lot of work when you're also trying to do the work. So again, kudos to you and your team for everything that you're doing. I've learned a lot from you. It's a great pleasure to meet you, and maybe someday we get to meet in person if you come to Canada, or I'm in Ireland. I'd love to see some of the gardens you've designed.

Yeah, if you're over anytime. Thanks very much for having me on. It's been great.

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