Episode 17: Investing with Purpose: A Deep Dive into Responsible Investing in Canada

Have you heard of the saying vote with your dollar and ever wondered what it means or how impactful it actually is? Eco-conscious companies are becoming more common and easier to find if you care about voting with your consumer dollars, but it can still be really challenging to know where to best invest your money for the good of the planet and the people that you care about. Stay tuned to discover key ways to align your investment portfolio with your values. Hello listeners and welcome to Eco-ish Podcast. I'm Tracy Lydiatt, founder of Sustainable Living School and your host today. The purpose of Eco-ish Podcast, if you're new here, is to illuminate the good work towards sustainability that companies are doing, honestly discuss trade-offs they might wrestle with, and to share their interesting stories to help listeners like you make informed choices. Eco-ish podcast honors the imperfect journey towards creating an eco-conscious brand in an unsustainable society. On today's episode, we're so pleased to invite founder of Good Investing, Tim Nash. Tim has helped thousands of Canadians align their investment portfolio with their values, and as an expert on socially responsible investing, sustainability, and impact investing, he is regularly featured in presentations and in publications such as on CBC, CNN, Bloomberg, and The Globe and Mail. And Tim is also a host of his own pa—

of—

I can't talk today— of his own podcast called Responsible Investing for a Sustainable Economy that you'll find from the Toronto Star. Tim earned his BA in economics from Dalhousie, and a super fun fact, we both did our master's degree in strategic leadership towards sustainability from the same university in Sweden. So it is my deep pleasure to have Tim on our show today as a guest. Hello, Tim. It's so great to have you here with us today. Where are you calling in from?

Hey, Tracy, it's great to see you. I'm in Toronto, also known as the Dish With One Spoon Treaty Area here on the shores of Lake Ontario.

Oh, that's fantastic. Thank you for the land acknowledgement. I'm calling in from the SĆÁLIPĀS territory in the Okanagan. And, um, it's just such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I shared in our intro that you and I went to school together. We went to the same school, but on top of that, we went to the same school at the same time. So we've got a lot of, um, deep, uh, deep stories and fun and challenging times that we went through while we were studying sustainability. So I'm really honored to have you on the podcast today.

Absolutely. Well, it's been such a journey. It's been awesome watching your journey over the last, you know, I think it's about 15 years now since we graduated, which is incredible. Um, and you know, you've been witness to my journey, which I think we're going to talk a little bit about today. But it's been a really exciting time, like you said, not without its challenges, but at the same time, I think, you know, You know, we were both ahead of the curve for so long, and it does feel like the world is catching up to us.

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I, uh, went to see a talk with David Suzuki in probably around 2011, 2012, and I remember thinking, what a man. Like, he has been toting this, uh, message for so long, and the poor man must have been so exhausted. And, you know, catching— you mentioned that finally things are catching up. And I, I really, I really feel that too, that finally there's like this tipping point, um, as we can nod our hat to Malcolm Gladwell about just the awareness. And I know that you have a podcast and I have a podcast, and there's just, there's so many people putting their voice to this. And I think that that's hopefully helping the tipping point. And, um, I'm just really excited to talk to you about good investing. And so I was curious if we could start off with you just telling me in your own words What is Good Investing and what role do you play?

Sure. So, uh, I'm the founder of Good Investing. This is my company, my baby, after, uh, several different iterations of my business. But basically, I'm a financial planner, so I've got my CFP designation. I'm a certified financial planner. Um, really, I—

it's—

to be clear, I'm not like a broker or a money manager or an advisor. I never touch my client's money. Uh, instead, I'm focused on education. I'm more like a consultant. Where I teach people how to take control of their money. Um, when it comes to specifically with investments, people have a whole bunch of different hang-ups psychologically about, you know, barriers for why they're not investing, or, you know, they kind of get stuck in a default setting, you know, investing with the person their parents used, or, you know, some path was laid out for them, and, and people can find it really tough to switch or even to take the first steps on their financial journey. So really what I offer is a really fun, educational approach to be able to understand investing and how it works. And then obviously the focus is on sustainable investments. So really my mission is to help people align their investments with their values.

Uh, that's really exciting, Tim. Thank you for sharing all of that. And I think you touched on a few really good points I want to double-click into, like using, you know, the folks that your parents used. And I know from experience that you are super fun and that you're also very good at explaining complex, uh, topics to people in a way that's kind and easy to grasp. So I'm super looking forward to double-clicking into that. But also, I just would like to know, uh, if you'd want to share like the driving force or the inspiring spark that motivated you to start Good Investing.

Oh, well, to understand my story, I'll kind of start at the beginning, which is that I grew up in London, Ontario, with my dad in the investment industry. So I grew up around stocks and bonds. And Tracy, I always had a really good brain for finance and economics. I was a little entrepreneur. I would sell pop out of my locker for a little bit when there was like a deal at the convenience store. And I knew I could undercut the soda machines. And, you know, I babysat from a very young age, was really always just, you know, this, this little entrepreneur. For my undergrad, I went out to Dalhousie out on the East Coast, and I studied economics and philosophy, and I was kind of a weirdo in each of those faculties. I would say a bit of an odd duck there. And as I was learning economics, the philosopher in me always kind of felt that something was off with the models that I was learning. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I describe it as like my Spidey sense was tingling, that something was missing here. And it wasn't until my third year I got accepted to do an exchange to New Zealand. And my intention was to go there and party and play rugby and hitchhike around New Zealand. Like, I really didn't know that, you know, things were drastically going to change my life. And a few things happened. Number one is that I took a course in triple bottom line economics, this idea of people, planet, and profit. And that was the first time I had heard, you know, this notion of sort of ecological economics and social capital and human capital. And this kind of expanded notion of what economics could be, and light bulbs started going off in my head. As well, I had a pretty profound spiritual experience while I was there. I met a 2,500-year-old tree that taught me how badly we're messing up the planet. And I really had this kind of emotional, empathetic breakthrough where it was really realizing just how out of balance we are. And so I went back to my fourth-year economics program at Dow full of questions., and my professors didn't have answers for me. So I graduated with my BA in economics. Fortunately, while I was there, I happened to go to a little lunch and learn that the local business industry association had put together on sustainability, and I heard a, a Swedish scientist named Carl-Henrik Robèrt talk about sustainability and backcasting and this strategic approach that he was really pioneering. I remember asking a question at the Lunch and Learn. I made sure everyone in the room knew I was getting one of the questions in the Q&A, and he loved my question. And afterwards, I went up to shake his hand, and he told me about this master's program in Sweden. So I applied. I wrote, you know, a great letter, and I got accepted to go and do my master's in Sweden. That's where I met you doing this MSLS, Master's in Strategic Leadership Towards Sustainability program. And that was really cool. I learned so much while I was there. It was really one of the best years of my life, all about systems thinking and understanding sustainability from such diverse perspectives. When it came time to do the thesis, I focused on the topic of socially responsible investing. But rather than approaching it from a more ethical lens or an impact lens, I actually wanted more on the financial side of it. So we looked at this idea of the financial materiality of sustainability issues, which is now a huge topic of conversation in the investment industry. And this is the tool that we built back in 2007, 2008. So it was awesome. I graduated in 2008. We graduated. I remember our graduation party. It was a great time. Came back to Canada in July of 2008, ready to take the investment world by storm. If you remember, I think it was October of 2008, a few months later, the stock market crash. And it was the worst crash since the Great Depression. So there were no jobs at all, and sustainability got thrown on the back burner.

Nobody cared. Mm-hmm.

So it was coming out of that that I built my first business. Um, I called it Strategic Sustainable Investing. I started talking to groups, doing some consulting work. Um, I wanted to go after the big fish, so foundations, pensions, endowments, these big pools of money. I had a little bit of success. I helped a group called the Catherine Donnelly Foundation find a new portfolio manager. So for their, I think it was a sort of $30 million or $40 million endowment, they were able to switch that over. They divested from fossil fuels before the 2015 crash in oil prices. There have been a couple more since then. But they've also been leaders in impact investments, these things like community bonds and this really cool area that's really impact first. I helped them lower their management fees. They got better financial returns. They aligned their investments with their values. I thought foundations would be lined up around the block to hire me. But sadly, meeting after meeting was no, no, not yet, sorry, no. So I had to accept that my first business model failed. I got a side hustle teaching intro to micro, intro to macroeconomics at Sheridan College. I would sort of sneak in sustainability wherever I could. That's where I learned so much about, you know, teaching and kind of my public speaking, trying to teach economics to first-year college students. It was such a challenge, but it was great. And then, you know, I kept writing about these things. I created my blog sustainableeconomist.com because that's what we did in 2012 is, hey, we created a blog and we started writing, and then people started reaching out saying, you know, Tim, how do I actually do this with my own money? So, it took a few years of kind of doing it on the side, but it was 2018 that I really decided, you know, to go full-time. I got my CFP designation, became a certified financial planner, and really started working with hundreds of clients one-on-one to really take control of their investments and teaching them how to invest in a more sustainable manner.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing your story. I actually, you know, I'm shocked to say this and a little bit embarrassed that I didn't actually realize that you met Kaleigh in person. Yeah. And that he was the one that like gave you the handshake to be, hey, you should come to the master's program. What an honor.

Right? Yeah, I didn't even know at the time. This was just— I just kind of showed up. Yeah, some guy invited by a friend. Yeah, okay, sustainability. And little did I know, you know, it's these moments looking back, we can kind of connect these dots, right? We're sort of one inspiration after the, the other that puts us on that path. But at the time, I felt— feel like I was just kind of following the steps of the universe, and, and I'm really lucky that it led me to the right place.

Yeah, wow, that's a really special story. And, um, I just realized that it's a 20-year anniversary of the program next year. So I know, I'm super pumped. And I'm gonna—

are you gonna go to Sweden?

Oh, heck yeah.

You're going?

I really— I'm gonna try and go. So okay. Yeah, I'm planning that. And hopefully, hopefully, Kaleigh will be there. And it's, it's interesting. You mentioned triple bottom line and natural capital. And it's I recently was on a panel of social, well, it's a socially responsible investing summit in Kelowna. And to me, it's just, it's honestly still kind of mind-boggling that we still don't incorporate natural capital in our financial forecasting and like, all of the different ways that we account for how a business operates and the cost that it accrues. It's just, it's kind of mind-boggling to me. And it's also really exciting though, because the Task Force on Climate Change Risk Disclosure is so powerful and I think is actually finally making some real waves through the investment industry and really making businesses sit up and pay attention. Because, you know, when we were in school, it was always like, especially around Bob Willard's work, is like, what are the risks of, you know, what's the business case for sustainability? So Dr. Bob Willard's this Canadian gem. If anyone's listening and you're struggling to understand this for your own business, please go check out his work. He's so generous, and a lot of it's really free or at low cost. And he helps you build the business case for sustainability. And his thing was always like, how do we translate the impacts that we see on the natural capital, on the environment, on social systems into something that a chief financial officer or a controller or someone within a business can actually get their minds around. And I feel like, yeah, it's such an important piece that's still missing from our, our conversations and the overall way that we structure business in our economy and Yeah, I am. So maybe that's a— I'm a bit on a soapbox right now, but it's kind of exciting.

So it is, but it's, it's been interesting over the last little while because, you know, when we, when we came back from Sweden, I mean, no one knew what I was talking about, right? Like, sustainability was such a foreign concept. People didn't even understand that term. I'll never forget going to see WALL-E and with my, like, my little stepbrother and the movie WALL-E.

Yeah, the movie WALL-E.

And for the first time in a movie, it was like, but that's That's unsustainable. And he like punched me. He was sitting next to me in the movie theater. It's like, they just said unsustainable, right? Like, it was just like, wow. Like, okay, this is for the first time people were understanding this concept. And then it's taken a while for it to infiltrate the business world and the investment world. But the last couple years, oh my goodness, this acronym ESG, Environmental, Social, Governance, which, you know, it's just completely taken off now. It is part of every single investment decision-making, whether people like it or not, it's part of that. But the broader economic world that we're in sadly hasn't really changed. It's still obsessed with growth and GDP growth, gross domestic product. A lot of these notions of happiness or wellbeing economics really haven't taken hold. The language that I learned way back in the day was about externalities. The social and environmental issues were external to the profit-maximizing equation, and so they were ignored. We have some examples now for like, we have a carbon tax in Canada, right? And that's an example of putting a price on pollution where we're valuing the natural services for the first time in terms of CO2 emissions, but it's still a fraction of what it ought to be when we look at what the real social cost of a ton of carbon is. To the environment. Like, it's still, you know, the carbon tax is way lower than it ought to be, and unfortunately it is still by and large ignored by mainstream economics. So it's been really interesting for me. There's sort of the micro and the macro. The stock market and finance is the micro, and then the macro is kind of governments and this big picture decision-making. And what I would say is it's actually the micro, it's the investment world that I think is starting to understand these— the economic value of sustainability much more quickly than the macro world is right now.

Yeah, and we could talk about this forever. It's such a good point. And I think just to like cap off the thought about that is, you know, kudos to the insurance companies. I know we all kind of have a love-hate relationship with them. It's like sort of a necessary service for those of us that you know, want to make sure that we have insurance on our lives and livelihoods and money. But also, I think it's the insurance companies that are really driving the agenda from risk, from a risk perspective. So it still isn't altruistic, and at least it's helping us, like you said, infiltrate some change. And a healthy bit of fear isn't so bad in this case, I think. Obviously, It's tricky.

And, you know, I think that when we, like, we were ahead of the, the curve on these issues, you know, 15 years ago, we knew what was coming and we were, you know, screaming and telling people, hey, we got to get ready for this. Um, it's here now. Yeah, undeniably it's here now.

Yeah.

Um, and, you know, unfortunately a lot of people still aren't ready for it or they still, you know, dismiss it in a lot of ways. But money talks. And when you see, you know, you talk about risk and how well the insurance industry understands risk. And hey, you know, they're the ones saying that these risks are real and there's a cost to these things. And we're going to start to see those costs in a big way. So, you know, my experience with systems change is that it happens very gradually and then all at once. Right. And I get the sense that we're— I don't know when it is. I can't— don't ask me to put it, you know, a date in the calendar, but it's been happening very, very gradually. And I get the sense we're very close to this point where it's going to be all at once.

Yeah, well, let's talk about that a little bit in the sense of if anyone's listening and they're like yourself and myself, individual investors. So curious if you can help share what kind of a role we play in helping this sustainability agenda, because I know, you know, oh, I'm just one person and, you know, maybe it's only $100 or $50, like, right. You know, it's like the economy in Canada is really challenging right now. And so let's talk about how even just a small amount of money from an individual can help the sustainability agenda.

Awesome. So, you know, it's important to understand we are all actors in this economic system, whether you like it or not, whether you like capitalism or not, we're all a part of it. If you've got a job, you know, if you've got a bank account, like we're all a part of it. And so there are a number of ways that we interact with the economy. You know, one of the biggest ones is how we earn our money, right? And so how you earn your money is a huge way that you can have an impact in the sustainability agenda. A second way that people participate in the economy is through spending, right? So we know through conscious consumption and by, you know, buying local and buying organic and buying, you know, sort of that obviously we're creating the demand that the economy requires, that we are participating in creating a more sustainable economy with our consumption dollars. What I'm focused on is an area that a lot of people ignore, which is their investment dollars, which is what they do with their savings. And so this is where, you know, absolutely individuals, we all participate in the economy, like it or not. And so I want you to bring the same intentions that you use, the same values that you use when you choose what company to work for or what products to buy. I want you to be that intentional and deliberate about how you save and invest your money. So one of the first things that people can do is to join a local credit union that, you know, a lot of us— I'll speak for myself— I had a bank account from when I was a kid that my parents set up for me. It came with a little like passbook. At some point that bank got bought by Scotiabank. So by default, I was a Scotiabank customer for the longest time, right? And I just didn't think anything of it until I started to learn about this stuff. And I understood that actually my deposits in my Scotiabank bank account, we're allowing Scotia to be able to create loans. That money doesn't just sit there, they use it to be able to facilitate loans. And when I looked at Scotia's activities and, you know, some of their investments, I wasn't too happy about what they were using my money, you know, to, to, to, to generate an economic activity. So, um, I fired my bank very happily and I joined a local credit union. And I stopped paying a monthly fee, like I got a no-fee checking account, so I save money every month on those fees. Yeah, my customer service is way better, right? And, um, now instead of my deposits going towards these large companies and these large projects, um, including a lot of fossil fuels, my, my deposits now are facilitating small business loans and mortgages to other co-op members, people within my own community., you know, borrowing money and creating that local economic activity. So that's one of like the, the easiest things. And I know it can be a little bit hard if you're like, uh, I don't want to switch my bank, it seems like a really intense thing. It's really not. You don't have to fire your bank right away. Just join a credit union and start using the credit union. Just over time, switch everything over there. Switch your direct deposit, switch your bill payments, you know. Don't worry about your credit card, leave your credit card where it is. If you have mortgage or line of credit or other debt, don't move that, leave that where it is until it's time to renew. Don't worry about that. You can pay it from— your debt from any bank account, but just join a credit union and start doing your day-to-day checking and savings there. And, you know, it's a way you can absolutely have— you know, one person can have an impact, but also the more of us do it, you know, that impact is going to multiply. Um, from there, once you've got your day-to-day checking and savings account sorted, you know, that's when hopefully you're earning enough money that at the end of the month, you know, you're earning more than you spend. Not everybody's in that situation, but, you know, many of us are. And those of us who do have that privilege of having a little extra money at the end of the month, this is when you want to start, you know, putting money towards your retirement, that we do want to invest your money. And again, a lot of people, a lot of my clients have feelings about participating in capitalism and investing in the stock market. It feels kind of dirty and slimy. Right? And yeah, like, but this is kind of what we need to do, that if you want to have financial stability, if you want to save for retirement, you need compounding returns on your side. The best way to do that is by investing the money in the market. But fortunately, there are ways we can do it that are a lot more aligned with our values. Now, everyone has their own financial journey. So like, you know, the advice that I would give to someone who's just out of school and, you know, has just paid off their student debts and is investing for the first time, compared to, you know, someone who just inherited $1 million or $2 million and now has, you know, all this money that they want to put aside. Obviously, that advice is going to be very, very different. But either way, no matter who you are, what it comes down to is being thoughtful and being intentional and being deliberate about how you're investing that money. Mm-hmm. And what we can do is there are now some awesome sustainable investment options out there that didn't exist 10, 15 years ago. But now we can absolutely align our investments with our values. We can still earn the same financial returns. You can do just as well as with a traditional portfolio. But what I typically advocate is for people to carve out their sort of pie chart. And any pie chart, any investment portfolio is going to have a mix of both stocks and bonds. And I'm happy to give a quick little overview for listeners if that would be helpful of stocks and bonds. Would that be helpful?

Sure. Yeah, let's talk about that.

My little— in terms of stocks and bonds, stocks are like the rabbit in the race, okay? Bonds are like the turtle in the race. With stocks, we own shares of companies.

Yep.

So we share in that company's profits and losses. And if the company does well, the value of our shares goes up. If the company does poorly, the value of our shares goes down. But over time, with a nice diversified mix of stocks, you know, that has been the best way for people to generate wealth over the long term. That over the long term, we have higher expected returns from stocks, but in the short term, they're very volatile. This is why they're the rabbit in the race, right? Up and then down and then up and then down, and can't really predict them.

Oh, over the place.

Crash, and then there's a boom, and then, right, it can be a little intense. And so that's why stocks, you know, we get these over the long term, we get these higher expected average annual returns. But in the short term, we do have to deal with the risk or the volatility, right? Bonds are like the turtle in the race. Bonds are debt. We are loaning money to governments and corporations, so we're not betting on their success and failure, right? Instead, we're just loaning the money, and so we just earn a nice consistent interest payment every single month or every single year. It's just really boring. It's really safe. There's nothing sexy about bonds, Tracy Lydiatt. It's a very stable way to earn financial returns, right? There is some stability, but much less— or some volatility, rather, but a lot less volatility than with stocks. And what's cool is that stocks and bonds tend to move in opposite directions. They're what we call inversely correlated.

Yeah.

So that when stocks go up, bonds tend to come down a little bit, but not a big deal. Your stocks are doing well, right?

Because if the company is doing better, then they need less money.

Yeah, well, it all— it has to do with the interest rates. Okay, it's a whole bunch of things. Don't get me— you know, bond pricing is its own thing. But the important thing is to understand is that when the stock market crashes, yeah, that's when we have what's called a flight to safety, and that's when interest rates get cut. And during a crash, that's when the value of our bonds actually goes up a little bit. Not enough to offset the loss, we're still down on our portfolio, but it's It's kind of like a teeter-totter in that it really helps to have a nice diversified balance. The bonds are more the turtle in the race. So any investment portfolio, any long-term investment portfolio is going to have a mix of stocks and bonds. But then I take it a step further and I split each of those up into doing less evil versus doing more good.

Right. Which is going to be one of my questions. It's like, okay, well, how do we thread the sustainability agenda into this?

Right. Yeah, the way we do it is that, you know, they're doing less evil approaches that we can still earn market rates of return. We just got rid of all the nasty stuff. And everyone has a different definition of what that means. Um, and there are different approaches depending on sort of how activist you want to be, right? Right. You know, for a lot of my clients, they want to divest from things like military companies and tobacco. And increasingly fossil fuels. People are like, no, not one penny. Ethically, Tim, I am just against owning one share of these companies. And so that's what we call an exclusion, or, you know, negative screening is a technical term that we use. Really, I think for a lot of people, they talk about divesting from those companies.

Yeah.

Um, from there we have this ESG, environmental social governance analysis. So this allows us to not just get, you know, get rid of the sort of worst of the worst, you know, sectors. But we can also go within a sector and say, hey, within the mining sector, which companies are more sustainable versus least sustainable? So we've got this ESG analysis. It's not perfect, but it gives us really good information and data, right? And then the last approach on the doing less evil side is shareholder engagement. That this is different from divestment. This is a tactic where we say, hey, I'm actually going to own shares in this company on purpose Yeah, but I'm gonna push them in a more sustainable direction. And so, oh yeah, all different tactics or approaches, they each have their, their benefits, their drawbacks, their trade-offs. But for me, it's about understanding these approaches and then, you know, helping clients figure out kind of where they are. There's a spectrum from like a small step in the right direction all the way through to what I call like my crunchy granola portfolios, right? For the hippies in the crowd that want to really take it on a more activist side, and that, you know, there's a big spectrum there, and, and that, you know, really it's important for people to understand where they are on that spectrum and how are we still diversified and how do we still stay within our personal risk tolerances but do it in a way that does align with our values.

Well, I think that's really, um, exciting to hear that there's such a diverse strategy, um, and that you're somebody that can help people navigate that depending on like what their personal preference is. And you know, when I introduce the podcast, I always say Eco-ish Podcast honors the imperfect journey towards creating a sustainable society because we're not really in one right now. And you brought up mining specifically, and for those listeners that this is their first time listening, I actually have a geology background and was in the mining industry. And now, you know, Tim and I were talking about this um, before we went on air. And like, now I'm kind of back in the mining industry, but I'm working on the cleantech side. And I wrote my thesis on sustainable mining because, um, it's such a crucial part of our economy and our quality of life, actually. When you think about metals, for example, um, they're in everything, right, that we depend on. And so I bring that up because I think it's a really great way of highlighting Yes, that there's the mining industry or there's the oil and gas industry or there's, you know, like forest bioeconomy or agriculture or pharmaceuticals. But within those sectors, there's such a massive variety of companies that are paying attention to ESG, are decarbonizing, are making sure they're not polluting, are making sure that, you know, their workers are paid well. And then there's like on the lower end of the spectrum, frankly, there's companies that just don't give an F and they're just there to make money. And so, yeah, I feel relieved listening to you explain that because it helps my brain understand, and hopefully listeners hear, that, hey, there's a, there's a pathway for anybody to weave sustainability into your tolerance for risk and the types of investments you want to make and I also just wanted to say I love the credit union suggestion. I mean, like, kudos to the original, the original social good model for pooling together as a community.

And they've been around forever, forever.

And I just, yeah, I personally just switched over my accounts as well into my local credit union and it just makes me feel good.

Yeah, and it's the same. You get the same service, you get the same— like, it's the same. If anything, like, a little bit better in my experience, and, you know, a little bit cheaper, and, you know, it's the same exact service.

And it's such a key point. Um, thank you for bringing that forward because I know a lot of listeners may be thinking like, holy smokes, like, I'm just barely making it month to month right now, especially with the inflation landscape in Canada in 2023, and It's just a really good point that if you can lower your fees and even within my credit union, for example, they have a service called the Big Change. So anytime you use your debit card, you can choose to add a couple of dollars onto your— or round up, for example. So you're just like automatically skimming money off your own top and like shoving it into a high-interest savings account.

Amazing.

So, you know, stuff like that. It's just like there's options for every level. And, you know, the ones I did want to ask you a question about, the ones that, uh, that are doing, um, better in ESG, what kind of impacts do you talk to your clients about? Like, or what kind of impacts are they looking to have, um, with their investment? Or what kind of impacts are still missing? I'm really curious to hear your thoughts.

I mean, everyone is so different. Like, this is why I love what I do, because, you know, everyone has their own emotional hangups about money, right? Like, part of what I do is like part therapist, like, people through that— a lot of feelings when it comes to this stuff. But, um, everyone has their own, you know, change theory and risk tolerances. And I've really— one thing that I've learned over the years is to kind of leave my values at the door when I'm working with clients, that it's not about what I want to say, and that's not what it's about. I'm not going to advocate for one solution. Really, it's about meeting people where they're at.

Yeah.

And helping them take that next step in the right direction. And, you know, and, and really looking for the things that are going to be good for their pocketbook as well as good for the planet. That those win-wins for me are critical. Too many people think there's a trade-off there, but there are just so many ways where it makes sense economically and it makes sense, uh, philosophically or, or from a sustainability lens. Um, and so really it's, you know, I, I think that, that everyone is so different when it comes to this, but overwhelmingly what's happened is as more people are giving thought to their money, you know, it really has created this cascade effect throughout the stock market. Um, money talks, we know this.

Yeah.

And so when money starts asking questions about human rights and treatment of labor and pollution and, you know, looking at it through a risk lens, the companies have absolutely had to respond. And one of the biggest things that we can see that's so obviously apparent is just simply sustainability reporting. Yeah, Tracy, when we were doing our master's, oh my goodness, like, it was— I think it was like 5% of companies on the Toronto stock market.

Yeah, the GRI had just kicked off to report.

Global Reporting Initiative standardization. Now it's like every single company is at least doing some type of sustainability reporting. Yeah, right. It's very rare to come across a company that does absolutely none. There are a few out there, it hasn't been mandated yet. Um, a big criticism over the years has been, you know, the, the, the variations, that there are too many types of reporting and different orgs and everyone's doing it differently. Now we're seeing the standardization, right? This, what is it, SASB or ISSB, I think it is, the International Sustainability Standards Board. And, you know, these are, we're now starting to get these sort of international agreements on, you know, which issues matter and how companies do reporting. So, you know, so that's an absolute no-brainer way that we've had, we're having an impact that sustainable investors are now requiring companies to disclose this information. Companies are responding by creating these disclosures. We know that what measures— what gets measured matters, that the first step for companies to start caring about these things is to actually produce these reports. And then, you know, as more people start to align their investments with— by wanting to invest in the more sustainable companies, by, you know, for risk reasons, for ethical reasons, whatever the impetus is, You know, obviously, the more money that's behind these, these questions, the more— the better answers companies have to come up with. And so this is absolutely transforming our financial system right now, whereas before everything was external, like I couldn't even get the information to the data that I want. Now at least I can get it. We can talk about whether people are using it in the right way or whether it's the right data and whether it's consistent. You know, improvements need to be made there for sure, but It's, it's night and day compared to where it was 15 years ago. Yeah, you know, so really the more people— it is a momentum thing, it is a tipping point thing. The more people are doing, the more people are asking these questions, the more, you know, demand there is, the more supply is going to meet that demand. Um, and then from there, what's really cool is that not only are we seeing— that's like the doing less evil stuff and getting the companies that maybe were, you know, doing some evil stuff before to not be so evil— there's also this doing more good side, which is so exciting. On, on, you know, when it comes to the stock market, it really is in green areas. So, you know, all of these clean technologies, energy efficiency, you know, water infrastructure, all of these green themes have done really well. They now have access to capital. We've seen the amount of venture capital and funding flowing into clean tech startups just skyrocket in the last few years. And that we know that money is the lifeblood of our economy. It's the water that the plants need to be able to grow. And so the more water that's flowing towards clean technologies, and the faster those sectors are going to grow, and to be able to compete, which is what they're doing now. And then also there's this really cool sort of social economy that's popping up that I do a lot of work around impact investing. This is where instead of the financial first, we're not trying to earn, market rates of return with impact investments. Instead, we really are trying to maximize our impact with our investments. We still earn a return. Yeah, but we might only get, you know, 3%, 4%, you know, something like that. It's not—

you're not going to get rich from community bonds, which I should say is a lot more than your current cash account on a high-interest account.

Wow, right? So, you know, so, but with a lot of these community bonds you know, you're at least earning something. But what you're doing is you're loaning money to nonprofits and co-ops to be able to build assets, to be able to make the positive change in the world that they want. So for my clients that are more on the crunchy granola side of the equation, you know, we kind of have the doing less evil stuff is the like, okay, let's put on your oxygen mask first. Let's make sure that you're going to have enough money in retirement, right, to make sure that you're looked after. You've got that financial security.. But then if you are in a privileged position where you've got more than enough, or we feel very confident about our financial situation, that's when we can start to carve out part of our portfolio for these impact investments, which are really, I think, how we're going to solve a lot of the crises that we've got in terms of, you know, affordable housing is such a major issue right now. So, so we're seeing a lot of affordable housing community bonds coming on the market.

Amazing.

I know there's a project in Kamloops that just launched recently called Propolis Cooperative, and that basically they're doing a community bond to be able to build, to finance a net-zero housing co-op, affordable housing co-op. So obviously we need more affordable housing co-ops, like, duh, we need more of them. We want them to be net-zero.

Yes.

But the question is, how do we pay for it? Right. And the solution is community bonds that, you know, a normal, just any, anyone in BC or in Ontario can invest minimum is $1,000. You know, I think you're earning about 2.5% per year. So again, you're not getting rich, you're not making a huge amount of money, but you still are earning something and you are locked in for 3 years. You earn 2.5% per year over 3 years, and at the end of 3 years you get your $1,000 back. But what you're doing is you're still earning a rate of return. But really what you're doing is you're helping build an affordable housing project in BC, which is incredible. And we're seeing a lot of nonprofits across the country, you know, embrace this model, you know, that they're not getting the donations that they used to, they're not getting the government support that they used to. Like, there was a time where CHMC, Canadian Mortgage Housing Corporation, would be building co-ops and be building nonprofit housing. They don't do that anymore.

Yeah.

So instead, it is up to these more local nonprofits to have the vision to be able to, to see the project and then use sustainable finance tools like community bonds to actually be able to raise that capital.

Amazing.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, it's sad that the previous history of those organizations and their activities has shifted. And, you know, it's also what a wonderful opportunity for investors to learn more about these things and for nonprofits and co-ops to raise money in a different way. Because let's face it, right now, again, in 2023, it is unbelievably difficult to, as a business or even as a person, like an individual, uh, to get loan instruments or mortgages. They're harder and harder to qualify for. And I honestly don't think that's any different with a business. So that's awesome that there's a different pathway and that it provides a good investment, as well as something like— Yeah, thanks for sharing what impact investing is. From our lens, it is all about doing good and helping projects that are really moving the dial. And for anyone listening that doesn't know what net zero is, it refers to net zero greenhouse gas emissions. So that project would be built in such a way that it would abate or minimize— well, first of all, minimize and eliminate any GHG emissions and then likely abate the rest of it. So yeah, it's super efficient, but also like good air quality.

And you know, there are all these benefits of living in, you know, an environmentally sustainable home, right?

Which also, you know, really quickly on the social side is like, you see affordable housing. This is like something that's near and dear to my heart. Um, you see affordable housing developments being built, but then no one's really asking, well, what are we saddling the residents with? Are we saddling them with like poor energy efficiency? And so they're paying like $1,000 a month to just heat and cool their place.

Like, right, like, ah, so this is— it's sustainable in a bunch of different ways. Totally. You know, and it does speak to like, you know, I think we're in a time right now, broadly, you know, economically, that, that these systems are so intertwined, right? The economy is part of society, society is part of the ecosystem, and that now we're kind of in this age of of poly crisis, where we have multiple crises happening at the same time that intersect economy, society, and the environment. And so, you know, really what I'm all about are these sort of poly solutions, right? That how can we use, you know, investments, an economic tool, yeah, to be able to solve not only of the affordable housing crisis but also contribute to, you know, a net zero, low carbon world, right? That to me, these, that's where I love to play, that I love these types of solutions that, you know, really for people, I don't want you to put all of your money into these types of impact investments. But again, you know, especially if you feel like you're in good shape financially, that you can carve out part of your portfolio to be able to support these organizations. It just, it feels so good. You're still meeting your financial goals,. And in my mind, it's a really effective way for us as sustainability leaders to be able to move the dial.

Yeah, well, agreed. So I'm so glad you brought that forward. And so just, just to recap a little bit, what I'm hearing you say is, is that anyone that's listening to this podcast, whether they're working with you or not, or they're just maybe they're listening and they're like, okay, I'm going to go start investigating on my own. I like what you brought forward about the reporting. So I think that that's what I'm hearing you say is that's a key signal for somebody that's like, okay, I'm going to start looking into this on my own. A key signal would be, does that company actually care enough to hire somebody within their organization to create a sustainability report? Like, yes, we could talk for hours about greenwashing and like the quality of the data that's in the report.. But I think for anybody on the basic first rung of the ladder, that's a great distinguisher. Looking, does that company have a report that you can read and learn more information? And I just went through this with mutual funds as well through the credit union and started deep diving into mutual funds and trying to figure out which ones report and which ones don't. And so it's a struggle. And so I wanted to ask you about—

it takes a lot of time.

Time as well, so I really understand and appreciate the value of someone like yourself. Um, but also one of the questions I like to ask my guests is, um, everybody— because we're not in a sustainable society— every business and service struggles with trade-offs. And so I'm super curious from your perspective, uh, what is a trade-off that you struggle with or you see your clients struggling with?

Yeah, I mean, there are a few. Definitely, you know, the time and energy piece. Is the biggest one. We're all exhausted, especially changemakers, you know, social entrepreneurs, intrapreneurs, wherever you're working. Like you said, it's a tough economy right out there right now. I think we're all kind of exhausted, could use a bit of a break, right? So the idea of, you know, oh no, I need to like figure out my investments, it feels like a huge decision. Okay, and so that's why I really try to make it as simple as possible for people. Um, I do have a course if people are interested. I do kind of, uh, you know, cohort. So every few months I get people together. We do, you know, it's, it's about, um, you know, an hour and a half a week for about 4 weeks. Okay, really the time commitment is just a few hours. Really what I want to communicate, number one, is that this is not rocket science. Bluntly, some of the dumbest people I know work in financial services. Like, they're not— you don't have to be a genius to sell mutual funds. Like, this is not rocket science, okay? Yeah, but there's a lot of stuff we didn't learn in high school, and there's a lot of stuff the banks don't want us to know about. Okay, number one is how gosh darn easy it is. That's really not hard. And, and so when it comes to these funds, you know, understanding, you know, fund and how that works and doing that There are, you know, different approaches that people can use. So according to your values, you know, what are the deal breakers for you? So these are the questions that I ask is, you know, what are the things that are an absolute thumbs down deal breaker that you won't invest one penny in? Recognizing that the more you divest from, the more things you exclude from your portfolio, the less diversified you are. So that's like the biggest trade-off, right, when it comes to this idea of divestment or exclusions. So for example, you know, we wanted to divest from fossil fuels. Great. Over the last, you know, 10, 15 years, fossil fuel stocks have really slumped. They haven't been great investments. They've trailed. So fossil fuel-free investments have outperformed. But last year, 2022, we had the war, we had energy crisis, the price of oil spiked. Energy companies had a great year in 2022 compared to the rest of the stock market. Yeah, in that year you would have underperformed benchmark. Now you're still doing about the same, you know, fossil fuels, it's not a huge part of the stock market, but the more things you cut out, the less diversified you are, right? So that's going to be one of the, the biggest trade-offs when it comes to sustainable investing. And then from there, you know, it is just really understanding, I think, that, that it is a bit of a journey that just like your career is going to change over time, just like your spending habits are going to change over time, you know, your investment journey, you are going to go along this journey. And so, you know, to me, it really— it's just the best thing people can do is to take the time to do a basic level of education, to get over some of their emotional hangups and just learn the basics of this stuff. And I would really start— people who care about sustainability, start by learning the investment basics. I know it's kind of the boring stuff, but trust me, it's so important.

Yeah.

And then when you start to look at these different sustainable strategies, whether it's divestment, you know, the ESG side, the shareholder engagement side, there's green investing, there's impact investing. As you start to learn these different approaches, if you have the basic knowledge, that's when you can really start to understand what are the approaches that really resonate with me, what is my own personal change theory, what do I care about, Mm-hmm. And then the last step is, is to actually put that in place, to actually shift your money. And this is where, you know, really what I teach people in my course is that, you know, there are kind of— there's a bit of a fork in the road.

Okay.

That, you know, the cheapest way to do it, if you want to keep your fees low and if you really want to, you know, keep as much money in the pocket as you can and you do feel comfortable with this stuff, you know, it's always going to be cheapest to do it yourself. That learning how to DIY invest, invest your own money online— it's not that hard, it's not rocket science, but you can do it. It also allows you to choose specifically your sustainability strategies.

Yep.

Right, is always going to be sort of the cheapest way of doing it. But at the same time, I recognize not everyone, you know, cares about this stuff as much as I do. So, you know, when it comes to, to full service, if you want an advisor, you want someone to do it for you, understanding how to shop around for the right products, for the right advisor, the relationship, how to understand the fee structure, right? So you know how much you're paying them and to, again, you know, how to— enough language to know how to look inside the funds to figure out what approaches they're using and what actually aligns with your values. And that, you know, so it's really, that is kind of the big trade-off when it comes to this. Getting out of our comfort zone when it comes to money and investing. And so many people I meet have this, this mental model where they're like, oh, I'm bad with money, or, you know, I don't— I, I hate economics, there's too much math. It's not math, it's more of an art than it is a science.

Yeah, and it's also overwhelming. Like, when I started going into the mutual funds, I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm picking lettuce out of a burrito.

Like, there's just like Right?

Like, it's so messy and difficult.

So, yeah, but no, it's difficult. It does, because you don't have the basic language.

Well, I need to join your course then, right?

But it's in the same way if I was, you know, talking about a mining project and, you know, trying to figure that out. If I didn't have the context, if I didn't learn about it, I would be so overwhelmed. And for you, it'd be like, oh, Tim, that's, that's 101, that's easy, that's basic. Stuff, right?

Right.

So really what it comes down to is, you know, my preference is obviously for people to get empowered and to figure it out and, you know, to take the education to do it themselves. But if you're gonna hire someone else to do it, at least like, like, if you can just give me like a little bit of your time to be able to, you know, understand the basics so that you can go into the conversation with that mutual fund salesperson to understand that they're selling you a product, to understand how to evaluate what's inside that product and how to shop around, right? Like, you're not going to take the first job that lands on your plate, right? You're not going to buy the first, you know, vegetable that you see in the store. Yeah, right. I always joke, Tracy, that, you know, people spend more time choosing an avocado in the grocery store than they spend choosing an investment, you know, a fund for their retirement account. Hey, don't get me wrong, you guys, it's important to choose the right avocados, right?

Yeah, come on, guacamole is life, right?

I get it, I get it. At the same time, please, please, can I please have a little bit of your time and energy and attention to make an intentional decision around, you know, one of the biggest financial decisions you're going to make, which is, you know, the investment fund that you're going to purchase. And, and just know and understand what are the options, that there are mutual funds, right? There are ETFs, exchange-traded funds. What's the difference? Yeah, I understand. They're They're kind of the same thing. They're just in different wrappers. Like, it's really not that hard, but I get the hangups. I understand where people are coming from. It feels overwhelming. That's why it's like, okay, just gimme a little bit of time to like learn about this stuff, make an intentional decision, and then understand that, you know, it's not always gonna be entirely set it, forget it. We can, you know, program these things and have it very automatic that, you know, every month a certain amount goes, goes into the right funds and, you know, you can set it up very easy that way. But over time, You know, life happens. And just like you're going to have different careers and, you know, different jobs, that your investment journey, it is going to be an evolution. Whether you're at the start of your investment journey, whether you're towards the end of your investment journey, you know, it is going to be, you know, just knowing how to ask the right questions and ensuring that sustainability and your values are part of that decision-making process every step the way.

Yeah, that's so fantastic. And, you know, I think the key message is education is key. And, um, I know you and I were talking about the myth of investing and returns, um, on, uh, more sustainable investments in the past. Um, maybe was also like another trade-off that people might hear from like older family members or Yeah, stuff like that. Absolutely.

The cranky uncle at the dinner table. It's the thing that's been thrown at me too many times is, is go woke, stay broke, is like what people like throw at me like, oh, sustainable investments. And that it's just, it's completely out to lunch. It's completely outdated. You know, really, again, and it does depend how far on the spectrum you want to go that, yeah, if you want to put a lot of money into community bonds and the Crunchyroll, the stuff that there might be a trade-off there in terms of risk and return. Like, you know, it's possible. But for the most part, you know, really my focus in the vast majority of sustainable investments in the world, especially if you follow this doing less evil approach, that you're really going to earn the same, very similar financial returns. Sustainable funds have done about the same. You know, obviously my thesis is that broadly the economy is moving towards sustainability. So I understand there's a business case for sustainability, and that, you know, if we think there are going to be more government regulations and there's going to be more consumer demand, and that younger people want to work for companies that are more sustainable, you know, all of those trends suggest that, you know, sustainable companies could outperform. But, you know, I'm not going to make that argument. Really what I want people to understand is that there is not a financial trade-off in terms of sheer returns that really you can still meet all of your financial goals but do it in a way that aligns with your values. And really, it's just that your uncle doesn't know any better. He's kind of repeating some Facebook comments that he read on whatever, a National Post article, that really it's understanding the economy is changing so quickly right now. I always like to, when I speak to that sort of cranky uncle, that it's, you know, we want to skate to where the puck is headed, that undeniably the world is moving in this direction, right? How can you get mad at Walter Gretzky's advice, right?

Oh my gosh, that's so Canadian. I love it. I've actually never heard that before, and I'm going to use it. You're the king of analogies, Tim.

This is, you know, but it really is understanding, you know, where's the world headed? Yeah, you know, we're seeing climate change in real time right now. You know, we're seeing the insurance companies first movers. We're seeing certain industries, we're seeing electric vehicles, we're seeing heat pumps take off. You know, to me, it's just, it's the type of thing where there are risks, there are opportunities. You know, obviously we don't want to go whole hog. You never want to put all of your money into one technology or one thing. We've seen, no, like, you really want to stay diversified. But, you know, as a broad sort of theme, what you want to do is you know, be investing a little bit more in the leaders than we are in the laggards.

Oh, that's wonderful. And I love that. And, you know, the old uncles, the cranky uncle is our example, is, um, I think a good— many people would probably be able to relate to that analogy and example. And, you know, I don't think it's entirely their fault because they grew up in a generation that, you know, worked for the same company for 35 years and retired with a pension. And like, life's really, really different. So I'm so glad— I love that skate in the direction the puck is going. Yeah.

And a lot of, a lot of investors made money in that. Like, how many Canadian investors like did really well investing in mining companies globally, or in oil and gas, or in pipeline? Like, a lot of them built a lot of wealth doing that. And Hey, that's great. I'm glad it worked for you, you know, decades ago. Doesn't mean that's a great idea today.

Yeah. And it's really heartening, you know, to hear from you who obviously knows a lot more about this, that, um, that's the trends that you see. And, you know, if I can use myself as an example, um, I have a bankruptcy, like a personal bankruptcy in my past history and For anybody that's listening that may be facing that or going through that right now, I can't even tell you the amount of bullshit, excuse my French, from financial people that I've heard coming out of the bankruptcy. And, you know, my credit got tanked. It was down at like 300-something. And, you know, I can say through various strategies and support from my debt counselor that I was able, you know, I'm up in the 700s now, like mid-700s. And that's, you know, it's possible to get through that. And it's also possible to start saving money and like reboot. And, you know, one of the things that we haven't talked about that I just would like to touch on really briefly is managing debt. And I think that's something that the younger generations aren't really great at. And one of the key points that I was given is like You know, say you have a credit card and you've got like a $5,000 balance, but you're paying 19% interest or 21% interest, which is pretty common for credit cards now.

That's right.

Like, the first thing you should do is actually pay yourself by paying the debt, and you're actually making a 20% return on your money because you're not paying that money out. And, you know, where I am now, you know, I was kind of talking about this offline, is I'm on the, on the path of like, I have an advisor with an organization that's helping me do the like life basics, like putting money away every month for like an oopsies account. Like, oh crap, my car died, or like I have to take a trip somewhere to see a dying relative, or yeah, you know, the emergency fund. I have them also helping me with like the the let's start consistently putting stuff away in the stocks and bonds strategy, um, for my retirement. But the, the part that I'm really excited about, and like, I want to take your course and learn more about, is even within those instruments and that work, um, there's not a lot at right now. There's not a lot of, um, what's the right word, not flexibility, but just like time investment that he's making on my behalf, um, on the stocks that I really care about, like the companies. Like maybe there's specific companies that are really coming to my mind and I want to deep dive and learn a little bit more myself about exactly what you were sharing about DIY. Like maybe I put like $100 a month and I'm gonna like invest in my own stocks So that's— I just wanted to vulnerably share a little bit with listeners.

I really appreciate that. Like, thank you.

My journey.

And, and it's, you know, I think that when it comes to debt, so the first thing to understand that I really need people to understand is that there are paths out, right? Like, there are paths out. Um, I had— there was a, a friend of mine who very sadly, like, took his life because of I, I, in part, it's never one thing, but he was in a lot of debt, and, and it really shook me.

Yeah.

And I know he was someone who, you know, was always buying people rounds at the bar. Like, you never would have guessed he had money trouble. And I think it really impacted him severely. And that I want people to understand that there are credit counseling services, there are things like consumer proposals. No one knows what a consumer proposal is. But if you owe a whole bunch of money, they can actually like drastically reduce the amount of money that you owe through something called a consumer proposal. There's bankruptcy. Bankruptcy isn't the end of the world. It's not a huge deal. It's not— you like sit in the penalty box for a few years, like you won't be able to have a credit card, you have to use prepaid debits and, you know, things like that. It's not a huge deal. Do absolutely pass out of that. But you're spot on, right, Tracy Lydiatt? You know, in terms of a financial journey, you know, that the first place to always start is, you know, your monthly budget— how much you earn, how much you spend. If you're spending more than you make, I can't help you. It's going to be unsustainable.

That's unsustainable.

It is, it is. Just like if we're, you know, emitting more CO2 than the Earth can absorb, you know, it's unsustainable.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's where, you know, number one is just understanding money in, money out. Right, is so critical. From there, if you have any debt, understanding the interest rate you're paying on the debt— and credit cards are the worst. The only thing that's worse are payday loan places. Don't get me started there. That's like even worse than credit cards. But any, any debt, any interest that you're paying that's about— that's above about 5 or 6% annually, you just want to focus on paying that down. If it's, you know, some people are on, you know, OSAP, like Ontario Student loans, and, you know, they, they don't pay any interest. Okay, great, that's not a huge deal. But any interest paying, any, any debt where you're paying more than 5, 6%, you really need to focus on paying that down. Um, from there, the next step that's absolutely critical is your emergency fund. I talk about having anywhere from 3 months' expenses to 6 months' expenses in cash as an emergency fund.

Yeah, and money, and it's not like cash under your mattress or your freezer. This is what I learned. So through my investment advisor, he's like, my cash account can make you 4 to 5% a month.

Yes, a year, a year, or sorry, a year. Yeah, yeah, but that's a month, right? With interest rates where they are now, yeah, I would say anyway, I would say, you know, 3.5 up to 5% per year, you know, on our cash right now. They're high interest savings account. Don't keep it at your bank or even your credit union in a, a quote-unquote savings account that's only paying you like, you know, half a percent per year. You really want to, to keep that in a high-interest savings account. And only then, once you have your emergency fund, 3 months' expenses to 6 months' expenses, that's when we can start planning for the long term and investing money in stocks bonds. Yeah, that really is the starting steps for someone's journey, is that it really needs to start with the basic budgeting— money in, money out every single month. Get rid of any bad debt. Bad debt is in, you know, where you're paying more than 6 or 7% a year on that. From there, having your emergency fund— and some people say, hey, even do the emergency fund before you finish paying off your debt, before, you know that that really is so critical to have that emergency fund for when life happens. And then once we've got that emergency fund, that's when we can really start planning long term. That's when it starts planning for your retirement. And the last thing I want to say, Tracy, here is that, you know, a lot of people have a lot of guilt around this. Like, you know, you've been really open and vulnerable about your journey on this, and I'm sure a big part of that has been emotional. And, you know, getting over this. And I can't tell you how many people I meet that talk to me, say, oh, I wish I'd done this, you know, I wish I'd started this 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And I always tell them the same line, which is, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The second best time to plant a tree is today.

Yeah.

And that really is the approach we need to take when it comes to investing in and, you know, dealing with our money. That, you know, that let go of any guilt, any shame, any emotional baggage that is dragging you down is really something we all have it. We all have it. Right. So just accept it. But like, move on, get past it, whatever you need to be able to move through that.

Yeah. And it's, it's a wonderful point. And so thank you for bringing forward your friend's story. I'm really sorry that his journey took him to taking his life. And the mental health and well-being of our friends and our communities is honestly like the baseline of sustainability. So I'm really glad that we're kind of ending our conversation on this topic, um, and that, yeah, willingness to be vulnerable and share where you're at and, and find advisors like yourself that aren't going to shame you and blame you because there's a lot that do. Like, um, I won't get into it, but I've had a lot of experience with that, being told like, I'm never going to be able to get a credit card because of my bankruptcy, or I'm never going to be able to do this. And, you know, thankfully I knew enough to be like, yeah, thanks, bye.

Like, right, you're wrong, you're not going to help me, and how to find somebody who will.

Exactly. And they're not doing any buddy's mental health any well, you know.

And I—

it was a surprise to me to learn that you can go bankrupt at least twice in Canada, right, legally.

I'm not saying— and I'm not saying people, this is— this should be a game plan. No, but trying to do this, there are, you know, some consequences, but it's not a huge deal.

It's not. And so yeah, the point of bringing it forward— yeah, that's exactly what you're saying. Let's focus on personal well-being and sustainability and personal sustainability, because if you're not in a comfortable, safe place, you cannot help other people. And that's the baseline of it all.

So that's putting on your oxygen mask first, right?

Exactly.

And I think in sustainability, so much of us are trying to help other people, trying to help the planet. You know, this is why I really, you know, this personal finance thing, it's something I'm so passionate about, because having financial flexibility, financial freedom, you know, having the confidence, what it feels like to have a game plan and to be implementing that game plan every single month, that's what allows us to do amazing things in the rest of our life. And so it really is to me such an important part of the puzzle that obviously there's the financial system I think is a really important lever when it comes to systems change. But at the same time, I think so much of the work that I do with clients is transformative on a personal level. That when we— they do get to this place where they feel confident and secure in their financial future, that they have enough, whatever that means for you, it's going to be different for everyone. But as soon as you feel like you have enough, that's what allows you to give so much more of your time and energy and resources.

Hmm.

Well, I want to thank you for giving your time and energy and knowledge and resources So to wrap up, always my final question is, what does your ideal future look like for good investing and how can people find you?

Yeah. I mean, so I'm on a mission to help a million Canadians invest intentionally. So I want to hit that Malcolm Gladwell tipping point where this just becomes the default way. Of course, I'm going to invest according to my values. Of course, I'm going to incorporate sustainability into my decision-making financially. And so the way I do that is one-on-one with clients, but also through courses, also through other educational programs and different partnerships. Really, I'm here to help. So, you know, if anyone wants to talk about their money and their personal investment journey, I offer everyone a free consultation. They can go to my website, goodinvesting.com is definitely the best place to— you can book a free consult. My email is tim@goodinvesting.com. You know, I am on a couple socials, but probably LinkedIn, is, is the best place to, to connect with me. That's probably the place where, you know, I, I spend the most time or check my messages the most frequently. Um, and I do have a podcast with the Toronto Star called Responsible Investing for a Sustainable Economy. So, you know, wherever you're listening to this podcast, if you want to look up Responsible Investing for a Sustainable Economy, um, and, and hear about some, some really cool people that are doing some really cool things to, to build a Sustainable Economy.

Yeah, and you've got 2 seasons of juicy episodes to dig into.

So that's right, we've got a 36-episode back catalog, and my fingers are crossed I'll get hired to do a 3rd season in the next little bit. But you never know with these things. But with any luck, um, there'll be even more great content coming out.

Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing. I so appreciate your time. It's been really informative, and it's Always a pleasure to connect with you, Tim.

Thanks so much, Tracy. It's been a blast.

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