Episode 11: Rachel and Jesse - Kooshoo: Leading the way for zero-waste hair accessories

Hello listeners and welcome to the Eco-ish Podcast. I'm Tracy Lydiatt, founder of Sustainable Living School and your host for today. The purpose of Eco-ish Podcast is to illuminate the good work towards sustainability that companies are doing, honestly discuss trade-offs that they might wrestle with, and to share their interesting stories to help listeners like you make informed choices. Eco-ish Podcast honors the imperfect journey towards creating an eco-friendly brand in an unsustainable society. On today's episode of Eco-ish Podcast, we are pleased to introduce you to the wife and husband team Rachel Evans and Jesse Schiller, who are founders of the first plastic-free commercially produced hair ties, KUSHU. Passionate, articulate, and great storytellers, Rachel and Jesse lead a worldwide team in their base on a tiny subsistence living island in the South Pacific, and they have become leaders and experts in their space with so much value that they're hoping to share forward about the mistakes and opportunities that brought them here. Hushu is a line of plant-based hair accessories born from the philosophy that business is a powerful way to share a message. Created as sustainable products that fill a need and empower customers and workers without adding to the load that is weighing down the planet, the line has expanded to include hair ties, scrunchies, and headbands. Now with warehouses around the world and global stock lists including Whole Foods, Urban Outfitters, and Free People, Kushu has become the leader in the eco-friendly hair accessories space. Hi, Rachel. Hi, Jesse. It's so great to have you on Eco-ish podcast today. I've been really looking forward to our conversation and hearing more about what you're up to with Kushu. And I'm super curious if you could share with us to start, where are you calling in from?

Hi, Rachel here. Jesse.

Nice to meet you, Tracy Lydiatt. We're really excited to be here.

We are calling in from a tiny little island in the South Pacific called Norfolk Island, and it is— I'm, I'm an 8th generation Norfolk Islander, and to find it, it's, it's tiny, it's just 3 by 5 miles, so it's a little speck. Some globes don't have it on it. So what you do is you find Australia, you go to the east coast of Byron Bay close to Brisbane, and you go 1,000 miles out into the ocean And then we are on the same actual, the oceanic ridge as New Zealand. So straight up from New Zealand, it's called the Norfolk Ridge. And then we're below Vanuatu. So we're, we're really super isolated here. And yeah, this is where we're calling from. And this is where I was born and raised.

Wow, thank you for sharing that. I had to actually look up where you were from. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know where, where it was. I had the general And so I'm so interested to hear more about how you're choosing to run your global huge company from this location, which I'm sure we'll get into in the podcast as we continue on. To start us off though, I always love— I do an intro, of course, prior to us hopping on the call, but I always like hearing from the founders and the owners of the companies. Can you tell me what Kooshoo product is all about in your own words?

It's a great question. I think starting with the word "Kushu," so as Rach mentioned, she's an 8th generation descendant of Norfolk Island here. My accent is Canadian. I'm from Vancouver originally, but Norfolk Island has its own language. If any listeners are familiar with the Mutiny on the Bounty, Rachel is an 8th generation descendant from the mutineers, and at the time, the mutineers, they were all men, and then and they joined together with Tahitian women, and they settled on a remote island in the Pacific called Pitcairn, where they were kind of allowed to exist on their own for a while. And what happened is they developed their own pidgin language called Norfolk, and that language is effectively a blend of 1800s English and Tahitian, and it's a UNESCO World Heritage protected language. And kushu is one of the more common words from that language, and when you see to somebody here, you would say, "Wat hua yu?" which means, "Hi, how are you?" And if you're feeling good, your answer is, "Kushu." Yeah, so Kushu for us, you know, there's a lot of companies out there with kind of made-up words because, you know, all the other words are taken nowadays for their URLs. And it was really important to us from the get-go when we started Kushu that the Norfolk Island story was built into the business. And by having the name Kushu, which means so much for us on so many levels, it allowed us an instant mechanism to tell the story of Norfolk Island and this incredible little community where subsistence living is really kind of the name of the game. So Norfolk, as Rach mentioned, is so isolated. And for that reason, you know, it's very self-dependent. So, for example, we rely entirely on water that we catch on our roofs. For, for drinking water, for all of our needs. Um, you know, we eat what's grown in the soil here or what comes from the seas. It's, um, it's a time— it's a place where you're incredibly interconnected with nature. Um, you know, for me growing up in Vancouver, or for most people, you're so accustomed to going to the supermarket and, and, you know, you have kiwi fruit 12 months of the year in a place that doesn't grow kiwi fruit. Um, and here on Norfolk Island, you know, it's, it's kind of a throwback. We, we eat what's in season. So, you know, we're coming up towards citrus season now, and, you know, we're going to be eating citrus for 3 or 4 months, and that first citrus tastes absolutely amazing. And by month 4, you're like, I'm ready for what's next. But it really gets you back to kind of where we come from, and, and, and you really understand the implications of, you know, our choices in life and, and, you know, how interdependent we are with nature. And, um, to answer your question— sorry, that was a tangent— but Rachel and I, we have kind of different backgrounds. I came from an international marketing and sales background. Rachel is an incredible designer. And about 12 years ago, we made a decision that we would love to work together and, you know, use what we feel is just, you know, frankly, a lot of privilege being from the places in the world that we are and to be able to try to do something good with our time here and In our case, we felt that we could have a greater reach and a greater impact as a business than we could personally as individuals. And we set out to create a product that could prove there's a better way of doing things. And that's really the origin. Before we even had a product, that was the ethos, is, you know, prove that there can be a win-win product situation. It doesn't always have to be at the expense of somebody else, people or planet. And I think that, again, when we shop in supermarkets. And I, one of my previous jobs, I worked for a meat alternative company, and meat was a great example because meat, you know, you see your steak in the supermarket and it's under this cellophane wrap and you have no idea of kind of where it's come from and, and like the origins of how you were so detached. And textile, um, while not maybe as visceral of an analogy, is, is very similar. You know, we see this garment hanging in your supermarket nowadays, and we're detached from those origins. And, and that was a big part of what we set out to do, is to, you know, to tell that origin story as we make a fantastic product.

And also, um, just adding to the Norfolk story, you're so reliant and dependent on nature for your sustenance, but you also— it's so small that you live with all the waste you create. It doesn't get, you know, like, like, so you see your waste. And unfortunately, you know, Norfolk in the past, there's lots of burning of everything, you know, there's all these things we've had to try to figure out and try to improve. But we are also very fortunate that a lot of our waste we grow here, it's biodegradable waste, we're lucky. But we still, because it is so small, you see your building waste, you see all of the waste, and it's right there. It's a tiny island and you have to deal with it. So we're constantly, we're actually really fortunate side note, to be a test case for like a closed circuit waste project that's happening right now. We're gonna like melt down our plastic and make fence posts and all these really innovative ways to use our waste, which just aligns with the Kushu ethos so perfectly. It's really, it's looking at the whole circle and just educating the customer. So you can really invite things into your life that you're very conscientious about, you know, you're bringing in your money is actually affecting positive change as you consume versus suppression of, you know, people or plants or, you know, all the— and you're looking at the full cycle of your product, how you care for it while it's fresh your choice, and then how you care for it while you have it, and then how you prepare it for its next life, decomposing it of some sort. So it's really just bringing mindfulness to the whole kind of making you just really way more aware on many different levels as you consume.

I—

very long story.

No, it's perfect. This is why I invite your voices and ask for your— in your own words, because that introduction was— had so much breadth and depth beyond just reading, you know, a prepared bio. So thank you for that. So much to click into in there. I, um, I have a sister-in-law who lives on Pender Island, and I got to do a garbage run with her, um, last fall. And I feel like islands are such a beautiful opportunity to see a concept in sustainability that we, um, we really talk a lot about creativity within constraints, and I feel like islands are this living example of that, that you have constraints. Like, you, you literally don't have a lot of space. Whereas, say, let's take the landfill example for a second. Um, you know, Canada, for example, has so much room and so much space. If you look at Canada compared to Europe, there's so many more incinerators in Europe because they just don't have the space. And so their incineration technology could be arguably much more advanced than what we do in North America because literally we just dig a pit and bury stuff. Um, so it's, it's such a great example. Um, island life in general, I think the point is that it gives us those natural constraints and that it just drives innovation and creativity in our thinking. And then it's really beautiful to hear that, you know, I was reading your story on your website prior to this, um, call, just about how much time you took to think through a the major, the major points of your business, excuse me, that you really wanted to put care and consideration into. And I think there's two different kinds of businesses that exist in our capitalistic society right now. There's businesses that exist already that had been built on a certain model that are now trying to change, like shift the Titanic and change their systems from within. And then there's folks like yourself that are building a values-based and vision and mission-driven purposeful company right from the very get-go. And I feel like it's really inspiring that to see more and more of these companies emerge and come forward. So kudos to you and congratulations for that. Yeah, and that's really amazing, just talking about, you know, Indigenous folks around the world who— and privilege, you use the word privilege, Jesse, and this is something just a really personal share that I've always struggled with as well about how did I get born into into this body, into the family that I grew up in. You know, I'm like middle-class Canadian, had no problems in my life, like compared to marginalized communities that, you know, as an adult I've become much more aware of, you know, the challenges that they face. And so when I went to sustainability and did my master's degree, sorry, and studied sustainability in Sweden, we, I had the great fortune of being part of a multi country cohort. There was about 70 of us, and I think there was 23 different countries. And one of my, um, one of my fellow classmates was from Sudan, and he had to squat illegally in Ethiopia for 3 months to get his visa just to leave the country to get to Sweden. And so we were having this check-in in the beginning part of our program. And, you know, we were talking about what's your first impression of being in Sweden, you know, different country, different language. And people were saying stories like, oh, well, I'm vegetarian and I accidentally bought split pea ham and split pea soup with ham in it. Or, you know, I was having these challenges. So it comes to this person's time and he says, I'm really grateful that no one's shooting at me when I walk across the street. And like, I burst out into tears. I don't think there was like, you could hear a pin drop in the room. And so I got the chance to talk to him after, and I just said, what do you need from me as somebody that had a lot of privilege in their life growing up? Um, I'm Caucasian. I grew up again, like sharing with you middle-class family in Canada. What can I do to support you? And he said, go home and do the best you can with what you have. And I've never ever forgotten that. And that made me, that helped me so much reconcile my, in quotations, privilege and why I put so much time and energy and money and just myself into this work.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That resonates.

It's gotta hit you on the heart note. It's got to hit right to your core because the amount that you do in, you know, businesses like this and you're the way you've chosen to do your work, it has to be— it's from the heart. Like, if there's too much sacrifice and work and that, you know, you're, you're not getting the massive payout per se, or though, you know, although hopefully you do as well, but it's definitely, um, yeah, you're Yeah, you just, you live and breathe the mission of what you, yeah, that's why I very much resonate with you.

Yeah, 100%. About, and I see that energy in you as well, that you care so much about what you're doing. And when you think about the lifecycle of an entire product, like you could arguably say, what's the big deal? It's just a hair tie or a headband or a scrunchie. And I loved your social media. You had copied a tweet from Taylor Swift saying she's not quite sure how many hair elastics she's lost around the world. And that's just one— this is one person. And now it's really fashionable for men to have longer hair. So, you know, let's say we just, you know, added an extra 25% of more hair tie users in the world. And I think that you are also very focused on creating a huge impact, which also I just wanted to say too, in your bio about how you feel like you can create change through business. And I wanted to talk a little bit more about that, about what was the— we've kind of heard about the spark and inspiration, but why do you feel like you're helping customers create more eco-friendly choices?

There's—

what are you looking at with your company that helps people? And why do you feel like you are able to have a big impact running a business? Selling a product, you know, like some, some people might say like, oh well, you're just forcing more people to buy more stuff.

Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, of course.

And you know what, I, I think that's fair, Tracy, and I think we do reconcile with that reality quite often. It's like, okay, we're creating stuff as well, um, and, and early on Rach and I, we would talk about that a lot, and you know The last thing we ever want to do is create stuff for stuff's sake, you know, just for the fact of like, okay, we need to make more money. Like, that's not what this is about. The reality though is that people are going to buy hair accessories regardless of whether we're making them or not. And so by stepping in to create a product that is much better option— like, until we, you know, we launched, uh, in— we just turned 10 for sales and When we first came out with our product, we— thank you— we, um, you know, we— Rachel is the genius designer in our company and creative and, uh, created the world's first kind of commercially made— we use the word commercially made— plastic-free hair tie, um, because every hair tie up until then had just been being made with the synthetic materials, and that's because they're cheaper and, and easier to come by, frankly. Um, and so creating from that ground up, you realize that you're still creating stuff, but there's an opportunity here to make something better. And like you said, with Taylor Swift, that analogy, like we've done some kind of back of napkin type of math that we think is quite conservative. And we've got a great blog post on our site about this, but conservatively, and I know this is not necessarily a US podcast, but in the US alone, we believe that 15 million plastic hair ties are lost or tossed every single day in the US alone. So that's— it's basically the equivalent of a city bus worth of plastic daily, just in hair ties. And so on an individual basis, much like a plastic straw, you know, one hair tie, okay, what's the big deal? But it's really once you start thinking on a collective basis that you realize the scale and scope of the problem. And the reality too is that in America, especially in North America and a lot of Western countries, hair ties, it's, you know, there's been this race over the last 20, 30 years for more, more, more value, right? So how big can we make a pack and how cheap can we make them and how many, how many products can we get on it? Yeah, and so you'll see, you know, you can buy a pack with 100 hair ties on it and, you know, if you stop and think about that, like you actually stop and think, like Who needs 100 hair ties at a time? You know, it's something that so many people, you don't think about. It's just like, okay, well, that's of course, that's the cap size. And, and that's the thing is, so, you know, in our experience making hair ties, we've come to realize that hair ties that snap, that's, that's a feature of the product, not a flaw. The, the idea with those products is they are meant to be consumed. They are meant to be a disposable product. And it's such a flippant way of thinking about, you know, what we consume. And hair ties, in this weird way that society has just kind of given a little bit of a societal pass to hair tie litter, you know, it's almost up there with the cigarette butt. You know, you can walk down any sidewalk in the world and you'll see hair ties if you turn your eyes to the ground. And it's because they snap. It's because they're sold in these bulk quantities where if they go missing, that's okay, that's only 1 of 100 or 1 of 50. And so, you know, sorry, again, another long answer for you here, but, you know, ultimately for us, we realize we're creating stuff, we wanted to be responsible with the way we make it, but ultimately what I think we probably enjoy most about the company and about the opportunity we have is, is the conversations it creates with people and the way it can open up conversations about everything in your life and how you can start— stop to look twice. I think You know, we just met, um, a buyer for a massive, a big organic chain, um, you know, one of the probably most conscientious people you can meet. And even them, they acknowledge, well, I've never actually stopped to think that all my hair ties have been plastic, right? You know, so it's one of these things that, you know, you never—

to add on to that, that they will last for like 4 generations or more, or more, one broken hair.

So, so the hair ties you wore as a child Tracy or Rachel or whoever with long hair probably still exist in their entirety somewhere today. And that's a crazy thought when you start to think of it that way.

Yeah, it's so true.

Oh, go ahead.

No, you continue.

Oh, this is so fun. So for the listeners, uh, who aren't watching this video, we had a previous conversation about the fun delay in our voices, so I'm trying— I'm so excited, I'm trying very hard not to talk over you. Um, so I just wanted to say that, uh, I feel like hair ties, um, yeah, I have long hair, I have lots of hair ties, and it's like one of those background things that's just like always around. So it makes so much sense to me what you're saying about how people don't think about it as waste, and that's That's appalling to me. Like, I can't even tell you how many hair ties I think I've lost and worn and broken in my lifetime. And to think that they're all still existing somewhere makes me feel really horrified. Um, and I was being a slight devil's advocate about making more stuff because I really want to highlight the huge difference in when you start out with purpose and you start out with constraint You really, then it, it crawls backwards up through your design process and how you build your company. And in my textiles role, we worked with a startup that's working on a new Chelsea boot. And they've been thinking about things in the course that we had them in, gave them that same structure about what do we need to think about? What are the questions we need to ask so that when you get to the end of your process, like your, your product, you've already thought through the whole cycle of where it's going to end up. So I totally agree with you, and I was nudging you a little bit in the devil's advocate way that, um, it isn't a criticism. You're right, people do need these products. And so if we can give them something that has been thought through, is ethically made, biodegradable, great. Why shouldn't people buy those? And you make money on that. So Rachel, I know you have something else to say.

Yeah, perfect timing. Um, what I love though is that, you know, our first mission is to look after the planet and the people. So it's so great, and it is about holding space for conversations on how we can do that better. We're never saying we're the best at what we do. And that we can't learn to be better. And it's so cool because we get quite a lot of environmental activists as customers. So they're really well educated and proactive in the way they live. So it's great. So we've got customers that have always said, you know, the same thing, like, I don't buy my hair ties. I pick all the ones up off the ground. That's what I do. Like, that's what we do. And I'm like, awesome. We're all for it. You know, like, however you can be mindful in how you— well, in that case, it's not even consume, but like take on goods into your, into your world. It's fabulous. So, and we talk about that, like, you know, same with our hair ties, or if we find some on the ground, like just wash them, hang them up to dry and use them again. Like it's just about reusing and making them have their fullest use of their life, you know? So yeah, it's not just about buying stuff either. If you can find it in another way or reappropriate something, something, be creative. This is definitely a problem-solving, creative way of living life. You're always looking, how can you be more mindful, create less waste, get like maximum efficiency and effectiveness out of the things that you do buy. That's how I'm constantly looking at objects that come into our world or when I'm creating something.

Yeah, thank you for that. That's such a great point. Um, in my textiles role, we just did a study on end of life for textiles. So just for a moment, let's imagine that hair ties are in that category as well, especially like your headbands and your scrunchies, which do have a fabric element. We found that the best way to mitigate CO2 and, well, other GHG emissions is reuse. That's the huge pathway for abatement. And so I think that you just brought forward a really amazing point. Um, and for listeners that haven't come across your brand, I was hoping— um, I was just reading on your website that you're zero waste friendly, you're biodegradable, you have renewable plant-based materials, you use ethical and fair pay manufacturing, equals how you're helping everybody be environmentally friendly and make eco-friendly choices. And also I was hoping that we could dive into a few of those spots because for listeners who have maybe never come across this idea, I would love to hear specifically about what makes your product biodegradable. And lots of people, I think, have a hard time getting their mind around, well, if it isn't made out of plastic and rubbery, like where does that elasticness come from? Totally.

So for me, when doing— it's kind of like a chef, actually. I'm not a cook at all, but it's— it all comes down to good quality ingredients, in my opinion. Like, this isn't— we're not like— we have looked at this as well. Like, there is a lot of great innovation happening in technology and like organic brand new polymers to make fabrics and things., but we're not using that type of thing in our company at the moment. It's just basic best ingredients, like, and they're organic. So it's organic fair trade cotton and sustainably harvested natural tree rubber. Really easy to understand. So tree rubber is like maple syrup for the Canadians out there. It gets tapped and then the actual liquid comes out. We've got also great blogs on this on our website. So they actually collect the liquid rubber to then make it, to turn it into an elastic or anything similar to maple syrup. I think too it has to be boiled. I think that's sort of similar. So you boil the rubber to a really, really high temperature to where it actually becomes more of a solid like that. And that's like, you know, car tires. So that, so that's the one ingredient. And then for us, it gets the tiny— it gets, that rubber is actually the size of a yarn. So it's yarn rubber, right? Because it actually goes into our— like, our— this is all custom made. So we were the first— so exciting— first, first people ever to, like, make 100% plant-based elastic. We, you know, we got in touch with the elastic manufacturers around the world. At that point, we were being as local as we could, and it was in Rhode Island. Rhode Island was the closest to Vancouver at that time, so they were manufacturing all of our rubber, our elastic, from scratch. So then, so yeah, so we get tiny threads of natural tree rubber and it's so cool in the last couple years too, we've been aligned with, is it Fair Rubber Association? Fair Rubber Association. So it's all sustainably harvested. It's actually old growth.

FSC certified.

Yeah. So it's so great. Really, really wonderful rubber plantations with, and it's also a very small footprint, the rubber that These— okay, so many stories. We've moved our manufacturing many times. So these are now— this— these ones are now made actually in southern India. That's where our fair trade cut and sew facility is. And it's also fabulous on, like, for emissions, is that it's a small footprint. So the organic cotton is also out of India, and the natural tree rubber. So we're not— we're not using a lot of resources trying to get all of our materials purely to be made, let alone then shipped to customers. So that's really cool. So the two ingredients, when we're talking about— coming back to your question, it's just those two ingredients. So it's fair trade organic cotton and then the sustainably harvested tree rubber, and then it just gets woven. And we've done a million types of weaves, but you'll see our flat hair tie now. It's a— yeah, it's a weave. It's super strong. Natural rubber is incredibly resilient, so lots of stretch, but it always comes back. And then the organic cotton, as we know, is incredibly soft and smooth, so it's no pulling or anything like that. So it's an incredible combination of strength and, and softness. So yeah, it works like a charm.

Fantastic, thank you. Two things that came out of that for me, uh, one question. So say for example, um, I know my friend Ryan has a bunch of your hair ties and she often wears them like bracelets because she's got super long hair. So it kind of shifts into like almost like a fashion accessory for us folks that have long hair. Say for example though, um, I'm out camping and I'm like Ryan and I have it on my wrist and then for some reason it like falls off my body and it's now lying on the forest floor and oops, we don't go ever back there. How long have you done studies to show like what happens to that? How long would it take to biodegrade is one question. And then, uh, well, actually, I'll let you answer that and then I'll ask my other one. How long does it take? Does it biodegrade? What happens?

The one that we tested, we actually did bury it, so it wasn't just sitting on the top, it was under the soil, like maybe 10 centimeters or something under the soil. So we don't have any direct comparison to what you just said with it placed But that being said, they break down super fast even on top. It was— we have a blog on this too, actually. This is great. So, Jess, you—

this is— I wish, you know, I'll be honest, Tracy Lydiatt, we— I wish I had a better answer for this, and it's something that we're kind of constantly working on. So we have, we have kind of a few points of reference. One, we have a lot of reading and references we've done about the time to biodegradation, biodegradation of both of the two materials that Rachel mentioned earlier. So organic cotton and natural rubber. And then we have our own kind of more anecdotal live experiments that we've done ourselves. And so basically, with, um, with organic cotton, kind of consensus, if you put it in a composting environment, it'll probably disappear within about 6 months. So organic cotton, in the case of our hair elastics, is about 70% of the product. Um, you know, that is a product that will disappear in a hurry. The natural tree rubber is a little bit different. So natural tree rubber, of course, when tapped out of the tree is, um, is going to disappear back to nature almost immediately. But what happens is when you change— when you, when you bring it to that really high temperature that Rachel mentioned earlier, which any commercial rubber product in the world has undergone this process, it basically changed the molecular composition of the, of the rubber, um, that makes it stable. So it's stable and it gives it longer ties. So then it becomes a matter of like how much surface area are we talking about You know, it's kind of the, the math, the equation to what will, how biodegradation works is, you know, the more surface area that, you know, the enzymes, the microbes can, can attack, the quicker it will break down. So in the case of a natural rubber car tire, because it is such a thick product, that can take generations. In the case of ours, which is, you know, a quarter of a millimeter or a quarter of a centimeter, millimeter thick, it's a very different story. So from all the research we've read, the estimate for natural rubber to fully biodegrade back to kind of its origin source is about 1 to 10 years.

Okay, but yeah, more like because it's thread, the ones that get buried.

So then we, anecdotally, we've done our own tests where we buried them next to kind of real synthetic hair ties and other kind of case examples, and we found that within a year in a composting environment, there was nothing that we could detect left. There might have been something kind of more in a microparticle of the natural rubber, but it was gone. But this is a really important point and one that, you know, we were the first to come out with this product. And, you know, I think part of what our mission was, was to inspire copycats because that's the thing. This was a really tired industry that hadn't changed in forever. And we're starting to see that. And, you know, with that comes a lot of greenwashing too. So, you know, the biggest hair accessory company in the world, uh, Goody, they've come out with their own Planet Goody, um, in the last 2 years here. And okay, I, I mean, for us, we take that as a compliment ultimately because they're trying to— but of course, when you dig down into that product, I mean, I guess I have to be careful with what I say when I name brands, but you there's a lot of liberties taken in the green environmental movement when it comes to branding a product that's sustainable, and I think you have to be very, very mindful of that. And one of them is companies that will call their natural hair tie, um, compostable. So compostable by city definitions is generally it has to be able to biodegrade within 1 to 3 months or 1 to 6 months for it to go in your home compost. And unfortunately, that means that our hair tie, we don't feel comfortable using the word compostable because while it might do that in a hot composting environment, it is not something that we can guarantee yet. And to fund the studies to do that are tens of thousands of dollars. And it's just as a small business, we haven't been able to do that. And so we want to be very realistic with people in that this is a product that we term biodegradable. And in our case, we define that as it will break down fully within 1 to 10 years. It's entirely made of plant-based materials. Um, but, you know, as a consumer, I think you have to be really wary of what companies claim out there. And, and, you know, the companies that are really doing this sincerely are the ones that are going to be the ones that tell you the truth and aren't hiding behind any claims that they can't back up. And, and that's something that's incredibly important to us. And then to put in context, of course, if you compare it to any plastic hair tie in the world, you know, now you're talking about 500 years for that product to break down, plus or minus, again depending on situation. So, you know, that 10 years might seem like a long time, but in, in the greater scheme, it's a— it's night and day from whatever has ever existed before. And we're continuously working on innovations where we want to improve upon that.

Yeah, for, for our hair tie, the— there's no way it would last for 10 years unless maybe it was in like freezing conditions with no— nothing around it to help it decompose. There's no way. But for the people that do use The best way to increase the surface area when you're finished with it, if you can't think of any other way to use it again, and you can— there's a lot of ways to use elastic, so, um, is to chop it up, chop it up into like little 1-centimeter pieces, and then just sprinkle it through your compost or even in your garbage if you don't have a compost. It'll just help it do amazing.

Hot tip from the designer. I love it. And, uh, Jesse, really, really good points, Jesse. I feel like, um, I chucked you into an overly simplistic scenario and really just was concerned or wanted to illustrate the comparison. If I had a rubber elastic band on one wrist and your brand on my other wrist and I dropped both of them in the forest, if I came back at some point in time, yours would no longer be there and the other one still would. And yeah, it's a great point too about the compostable versus biodegradable. And I've come to understand that compostable actually means under specific conditions that are usually found in large municipal or city, you know, city-sized facilities. And that's not the reality for everybody. And I actually feel like the way that you frame it as biodegradable is much more accurate and transparent. And it's so true about how big companies is, you know, great. I feel like it's a testament to how you do business and values when you view competition as a good thing, the copycats as a good thing. So I think that just makes me even happier that you're on this podcast right now. And it also illustrates a real challenge that when you choose to support larger corporations, the reality is they're made up of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people a lot of times, maybe even thousands. And the distance, say, from a caring sustainability internal champion in that organization, or somebody that's doing the marketing that has a directive from the top but probably has a really good heart about it, the distance between them and their actual supply chain is so big that they probably couldn't even get that information if they wanted.

Yeah. Oh, totally.

I, I think that like, sorry to This is a topic I'm really passionate about, and I always have to be careful. We, Rach and I, we have a kind of a saying, you know, if this is a restaurant, we have to be careful that, you know, sometimes we should just focus on the food we're plating rather than taking people into the kitchen and showing them everything behind the scenes. Because we do so much of our lives and our work is behind the scenes, you know, it's supporting that supply chain and setting everything up properly. But at the end of the day, sometimes a customer, they just want a beautiful hair tie that they can feel good about. They want that nice plate. But in this context, in this podcast, and it's obviously where I spend a lot of my time on our supply chain, it is important for us to talk about that because, yeah, we have had these copycats, but a lot of time the copycat just focus on what's on the plate. So in their case, they might take natural rubber, put it into a cotton elastic, so not organic cotton.

Natural rubber? Like, okay, but just the company you just mentioned earlier?

No, but that's a different— but there are other companies.

Yeah, okay, where do you want to start? Yeah, you go.

So my point really is like, they're like, okay, the, the end goal is a plastic-free product. It doesn't matter what else exists. If that's what the customer wants, we're going to just make that, but we're not going to take any accountability for any of the other decisions that get there. So, uh, rubber, for example, as I mentioned, the predominant use of natural rubber still in today's world is for car tires. Not— rubber plantations are still a major source of deforestation, especially in Southeast Asia, because jungles are being cleared to plant more rubber trees to create more rubber. So in our case, you know, we linked up with the Fair Rubber Association to make sure that we're using FSC-certified rubber, fair trade plantations where the workers are paid fair wages. Likewise, organic cotton. Likewise, our manufacturing and making sure it's fair and everybody is being treated equally.

Um, and so where the next plastic-free hair tie may have natural rubber but they could be supporting deforestation. It can be cotton, but you're spraying all the fields and the workers are living in pesticide environments with bad water.

A bit of context.

But it is a plastic-free product, but is it comparable? Yeah. Is it uplifting? Planet, people, customer, or is it not? Or is it just using a keyword?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the iceberg effect, right? Like, I feel like it's such a great point and it kind of moves into one of the points I wanted to talk about with you as well. And it's a personal pet peeve of mine when people talk about climate change, they hone in on only climate change or they only hone in on carbon or carbon dioxide, which is actually a misnomer in a way because there's many other greenhouse gases that exist that are far more powerful than carbon dioxide. And sustainability is more than just climate change. Climate change is one symptom of a challenge that we're facing in this big spectrum. And so I also relate it to an iceberg, and depending on what little part of that iceberg is poking above the, the surface, you don't actually see the rest of the issues that are hidden underneath, which is what you just illustrated about a same example of a company saying, yeah, we're plastic-free, and there could be so many other issues like getting rubber from non-regenerative sources that are sprayed with pesticides and people are not being paid fairly, and there's just a cascade of other issues that could be involved, which which I think is just testament to anyone listening that this is why I wanna talk about these things. And I'm so grateful that you are being transparent about it because if you don't know the right questions to ask, then you don't know how to find the answers that you need. And so I feel like these kinds of conversations help people. It's like me going into the hardware store and needing a specific tool and like waving my arms around and going, this is what it's supposed to do, but I'm not quite sure what it's called. But I wanted to talk about labor and ethical and fair paid. So one of my previous customers does a lot of— or not customers, one of my previous podcast guests does a lot of work in India. And so I loved that you brought that forward. And so can you tell me, how do you ensure that people are paid ethically and well? Because also, I think this issue has come forward really strongly in the media in the last few years with fast fashion and how— I don't know if you saw the Undercover exposé about Shein workers, the big Chinese company, like sewing help messages into labels and like undercover reporters going in and finding that they weren't allowed to leave. They weren't able to have breaks.

Like, they—

people don't see that. And so I think it's really important to talk about it.

Um, can I, can I just frame it so that they can understand because it's been 10 years of manufacturing now. Yeah, our store, Fair Labor. So from the very beginning, that was always our mission, right? To make sure that this is a product— because she means feeling good— every— when you get your product at the end, every person that has touched any input of this product has to be left like uplifted. Like, they have to have had a positive influence in the creation of this good. It's so important to us. Otherwise, there's no point in business. So we started, um, we, we were living in Vancouver, and for, for me also, a closed, a small footprint was also important, you know, because we know how I'm moving materials all over the world to try to make something. We didn't want to contribute to all of that CO2 emissions unnecessarily. So the closest place that could still make garments at that time close to Vancouver was Los Angeles, and that was because they could— we did actually hand dyeing and all sorts of cool things there. So we manufactured in LA for, I think it was like 7 years, like a, yeah, a long time. And a big part of that too was that we could visit regularly. It was North American standards, like we get it, we're there. Like the standard of living is you're starting at a level that we could relate to. We couldn't get fair trade in the US, but we were there all the time. So it was great. It was like, you know, not quite our backyard, but 2 hours away so we could get there. Very soon though, we realized that our wholesale business, we got it all like mapped and we, you know, our financial and now like did all the scenarios and he goes, you're actually, you'll never, this is not a sustainable business. You can't keep manufacturing here. And we're like, okay. So we had to look at all of our options and it was a beautiful blessing in disguise in a time and place. It was a time that we had to look at which fair trade in India, which was so exciting because that's where a lot of the cost— like, we knew that a lot of our materials could come out of there as well. So it was, it was— and actually part of our journey in coming up with it, wanting to work together and make a meaningful business, we, we were traveling through India for 3 months like 12 years ago. So we'd already kind of— it had a little piece of our hearts already. So, um, at that point I'll take you to Jesse because he does all the incredible thorough research and finding all of our business partners. So, well, actually, no, we got to India, which is great. There was another wonderful brand in Vancouver called Nicole Bridger, who did all sustainable clothing, and she was manufacturing out of India, and she put us in touch with her manufacturer. So that was actually the first step. So that got us over to India, and then we wanted to find a fair trade facility.

So that's when Jesse I think ultimately, kind of Tracy Lydiatt answered the question, and it is a really challenging one. Like, how do you ensure accountability when the factory or the manufacturing is so far away? For us, the solution is certifications. So we really have to put our trust in certifying bodies. And there are different types of certifications out there. Some audit and some take the company's word for it. And it's important to distinguish between the two. And in our case, Fairtrade, an internationally recognized brand, obviously, is, is, is an auditing certification. So they do go in regularly to facilities to make sure that what is being said and what is being stated is in fact true. And there's a lot of other organizations like that. So there's obviously GOTS, Global Organic Textile Standard certifications in place, Fair Rubber Association that we already spoke about earlier. There's another certification, especially when it comes to dyes, OEKO-TEX in our case, that we really rely on. So, you know, it's not a perfect solution, and our trust is in the certifying body. And then the way we supplement that is we visit too. So we go regularly, especially pre-pandemic. You know, it's been a little while now, but we're slated to go in the next few months back to our partners in India. And in this case, I do want to— can I, if I can, just a quick tangent because I'm I'm so proud of this story is the, the supplier that we use in southern India. Um, it's actually owned and operated by nuns, and it's a social good facility. They are Fairtrade certified, GOTS certified, um, additional certifications beyond that. But this facility is— these nuns were, um, were teachers back in the '90s, and they were teaching, um, kind of people that society in often cases had kind of left behind. So people with different disabilities, people that— in poverty, people that, for example, may have been blind or hearing impairments or anything that would have prohibited their ability to get a job. And these nuns were teaching them textile skills because they live in a part of southern India that is known as a textile hub. So they were giving them these incredible skills, but they were still finding it was hard for these people to get employment. And so what they decided is, well, we'll go vertical, we'll create the employment as well. And they— They were one of the real pioneers of making India a hub for organic cotton products. So they started exporting organic cotton yarns in the early 1990s from India and have grown to be a manufacturer primarily for some of Europe's better-known sustainable brands. And that's how we found them. And to this day, it's a social good enterprise. It's a not-for-profit so that profits that are generated by by this facility are used to reinvest into the community to help all sorts of incredible causes. And, you know, it's, it's just those are the types of stories that I know at the end of the day, like, people want a beautiful product that they can wear on their wrist and in their hair. And ultimately, that's our number one job, is to create a gorgeous product that people can feel really proud of and functions very well. But all these other stories that you're going to support and these people that you're uplifting along the way You know, it's such a big part of that too. And, um, you know, while that might not be the number one selling feature, I think for us it's probably one of the features that we're most proud of in what this company is.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I, I feel like I want to cry a little bit because it's, you know, one of the things that is so important to me to create space to have these stories come forward and And it's something that's near and dear to my heart as well, just the social good and how we, as I feel like as consumers, we have such an opportunity to vote with our dollars and use our dollars for good. Because unless you choose to live on a mountaintop and not consume anything, I'm sorry, but you're stuck in the current economy that we have. You are adhere, you have to adhere to the the capitalistic model. Um, in general, generally speaking, I know people probably criticize that, um, in some way, but essentially, generally speaking, you're stuck in this system and the choices that you have are how do you, how are you gonna take your money and invest it in things that you need for your life? And the, the, the bare minimum is just buying stuff. And the elevated version of that is exactly what you're talking about, where you you can think through and understand the impacts and the good, like the real good that you're helping create in a completely different country to folks that you'll probably never even meet through investing in buying, let's say, hair ties from yourself. Another, you know, there's, and it's, I also wanted to just say thank you for sharing that because I feel like from North American perspectives, is lots of times we just think of India and China as these like gigantic blobs on a map. And we can create a really broad brushstroke and say like, oh, well, it's from India, it's bad. Or, you know, because there's so much negative press specifically, let's say in textiles around the, the bad things that happen, um, like the factory that collapsed and the fire and like the workers that were killed. We don't often hear the good stories about all the grassroots movements and the social innovation and the not-for-profits and all of that work that's going on as well in those countries. So, and one humorous thing you kind of cut out, it sounded like you said God certified when you were talking about the nuns.

So I just wanted to clarify.

Was it, uh, the acronym is G-O-T?

G-O-T-S. Yeah, GOTS. GOTS, Global Organic Textile Standard. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, these, you know, we are, our colleagues, they're our sisters. Um, that's what we call them, the sisters. And, uh, and they would probably say exactly what you just said.

So, um, but we're not putting that on Yeah, you're not using that on your, on your website. That would be hard to certify. Um, and the other little, the other little glitch, that's certification in your heart and your soul, right? That, and I think this is kind of what we're talking about is you are conducting your business, um, in a way that you feel confident with being human beings on planet Earth that you care about yourselves and other people and the environments that you live in. And You know, I don't think that it's fair for anyone to criticize from the outside if that's truly— or you're— that becomes— you become immune from that criticism when you're choosing to live and operate your life that way.

So yeah, just do the very best you can.

I think, I think that's the biggest thing is, is what Rach said, like the best you can. Like, you know, we would be lying if— there's not— there's still opportunities for us to do better. 100%. And we're constantly striving for that. And, you know, like Rach said, we get a lot of incredibly passionate activist customers that push us, push us. And we are so grateful for that too, because we do need to keep getting better. Like, you know, this is all along a continuum, you know, and, and we're not at the end. I don't think we'd ever reach the end of that continuum of how responsible or good a product or much we can do in our supply chain, but we'll certainly continue to strive towards that. But I think it's also important that we acknowledge the imperfection in the process too, because that's the human element. You know, this isn't perfect. Um, it's— we're trying, we're trying to be as good as we can within the means that are available to us, but we still see an opportunity to get to a compostable hair tie in the future. You know, what we talked about, the those stricter standards. There's, there's greater opportunity here, but on this continuum, you know, we're doing the best we can, which is probably the most human part of this, uh, this process.

Absolutely. And so on, on that last, um, on that last note, I'm curious if you could pick up a paintbrush and paint your ideal future for Kushu, what would that look like?

You're looking at me. I think my ideal would actually be to be globally recognized as a renewable, you know, natural— like, it wouldn't even have to just stay necessarily in hair accessories, but just a renewable plant-based or like goods company that is really looking at the full, the full from, you know, the plant being, you know, put in the earth to growing the crop all the way, you know, to end of life. And really having that educational component, you know, where you actually— it's almost like open all of a sudden, you see all these windows open to exactly like fair cut and sew facilities in India, to really inquiring about the compostable systems in your neighborhood, to— so that like a global— like to be recognized globally that this is a movement of goods I can trust and and conversations I know that I'm going to be enriched and empowered by to be creating a greater good with my actions. So that's kind of— I would love it if people— if it would just create a massive positive impact that helps uplift people and planet. That would be amazing.

Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I want to see, you know, biodegradable and then eventually compostable hair ties being absolutely mainstream. I don't think it should be a niche product of people that are really trying to live consciously. I think that's what the future of the industry requires. You know, we, we can see the way everything is trending. Like, we don't need to be creating products that continue to exist beyond us, beyond your lifetime.

It's just not necessary.

And even a small product like this, like, it's a great opportunity. And we, we feel you know, that we did push this industry, and you can see that in the COBI Gaps.

It's really cool. There was no one else that did a plant-based hair tie in the world.

And we feel we can continue to do that, and I think that's what we see as Kushu's, you know, opportunity and responsibility is to continue to push this industry because like we said earlier, it's not enough just to make a plastic-free hair tie. And like, you need to— we need to be making products that are accountable to people, planet.

Well, proper good.

And on every level. And if the entire industry can adopt that, then that's fantastic. That's real change. So I think that would be where we would like to see this go.

All sparked by your thoughtfulness and care and passion. So I feel like you're well on your way to your ideal picture.

And we should say too, also the customers' desire for this. This doesn't exist unless there's people supporting this.

It's like, you know, it's like if you show up for a concert and you're a singer, there's no one in the stands, you can be the greatest singer in the world. But so honestly, we would not be here if we did not have people that believed in a world that would support this type of like conscious consuming. And, um, yeah, we just— this is 10 years of, of not us, but everybody believing that this is possible. And that they want to invest in a future like this, um, where, where we all win. So thank you, everyone that's listening, for being so mindful and caring.

Um, and can I, can I say, like, something that I've come to really understand, kind of on the other side of the ledger, being a business owner of a product that gets consumed as opposed to just a consumer— consumers have so much power with their voice. They don't even— I don't think most people realize, like, you know, as a consumer, I love it when we get tough emails of people trying to hold us to account. And, you know, for the most part, we, you know, we engage those emails, and we have really open, honest conversations. I think that as consumers, you have a favorite brand out there, you should be emailing that brand and holding them to account. You could— you'd be shocked of how much power just your voice could have in that organization.

I'm saying it's a brand that's not conscious already.

Yeah, yeah. Or conscious or not conscious. Like, let's say your favorite brand is Nike. Like, this is, you know, yes, you're a, you're a drop in the proverbial puddle, but message them like, what are you doing for green materials? Like, what are you doing for worker accountability and making sure that you know, that's going to reach a human being on the other side, and that person who's working there, they feel connected to that. You know, that's a human instinct to like, yeah, I do want to make sure that we're looking after people. And something as simple as an email can start a real conversation in a bigger organization that eventually materializes in real change. I, I just think that underscoring the power of customers is so critical. I, I think your voice matters, whether it's voting with your dollar for the future you want to see, or, you know, holding companies' feet to the fire about what you want to see different at that company.

You are right, actually. A simple email even to, like, a company, like a bigger company like Nike, would be like, I'm really trying to buy sustainably, can you please recommend any sustainable materials you use in your product lines? And just let me know which lines those are. Because if you can start buying Like, for example, at Lulu, like, they— there's a lot of petroleum-based materials in that brand, but whenever there is an organic cotton, I will buy that organic cotton because I want them to know that they should be increasing their organic cotton selection, you know. So it's the same with any company. You just, you want to buy when they do, do make those conscious, you know, decisions, so they start increasing that product line.

And, and then hold them accountable for for the back end, for the supply chain.

Yeah, then there's the supply chain.

Make sure that you let those companies know that you expect better, or you expect good, um, or you're looking for it. Your voice will be—

yeah, you're looking for it.

And if they don't listen, then there is a company out there that will. So, um, use your voice. I would say that's, that's so important.

And he gets all the customer— all of the customer, um, emails, all of them. And I'm like, wow, you're still asking for more emails. I'm really impressed.

That's amazing. So Rachel, yeah, you feel confident, um, throwing Jesse out there. I think, uh, Jesse is— I bet, I bet. Well, it's a great segue into, um, speaking of using your voice, how can people be in touch with you if they want to find your product or send you a message or connect with you on social? Would you like to share for listeners how to do that?

Yeah, thanks. Um, easiest is kushu.com. Uh, there's a contact us form on there. You can get a hold of us there. You can always reach out to us through any of our social medias. I think we're probably most active on Instagram, um, and, uh, Facebook of course too.

So, and then can you think of any, um, wholesale, like proper brick and mortar retailers?

We have Unfortunately, we don't have a list on our website right now, but if you want to buy in person, send us an email, let us know where you are, and we'll get right back to you with any retailers that are in your area. And we've got retailers all around the world, phenomenal partners that are game changers of their own in their communities to support. So yeah, that's a wonderful point. We're really responsive. We have a little chat box on our website where you'll chat with a real human. If they don't get back to you right away, they will get back to you at some point. We do have a small team around the world that are working to try to hit time zones that work.

So, okay.

Yeah, we're responsive and real people. So be kind, but, you know, be honest.

Wonderful. And I will, for listeners, also just share, I'll put all of the show notes underneath, whether you're watching this on YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. I will put the show notes in the description so you can have all those links really easily accessible. And just to wrap up, I'm just so grateful. This conversation has totally exceeded my expectations, and I'm just very, very appreciative of your time and your transparency. And I can feel your hearts all the way from Norfolk Island.

Right back at you, Tracy.

Yeah, thank you, Tracy, for the space you're creating and the conversations you're hosting. This is— that's what it's all about, is dialogue and conversations, and that's how, you know, that's how we all learn.

And it's just such a treat to get to share this part of our work. So yeah, thank you so much.

Thanks for coming into the kitchen with us.

Yes, anytime. I wish I just had a magic teleportation machine and be like, Hey, what's for dinner? Let's keep chatting. I'm sure we have lots to chat about. And on that note, I'll wrap up and say thank you again so much.

Yeah, thank you. Likewise.

Take care, everyone.

Hey, listener, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Eco-ish Podcast.

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