How Networking Will Transform Your Trades Business w/ Michele Ibbs

I'm a big believer networking will work for every single business, but it doesn't work for everyone because you can mess it up if you, you know, you've got to work at it. The first network I ever came across, and I realise it now, was the local pub, because on a Friday night all the trades guys used to meet up and they would talk about what they were doing, what they'd been doing that week, I was going to say, gas engineers, you know, do so well when they do it right. They do so well through networking because everybody starts to refer them.

This is the Field Rocket Podcast. I'm your host, Tulloch Priest, and today we're joined by Michelle from I Am Your P. Hey, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me back.

You've been on the show once before. Could you just explain to people that haven't seen the first episode You know, what your background is and what do you do?

Right, so my background is actually nursing, but I worked in sales for many years and then set up a company called I'm Your PA, a virtual assistant company, in 2007, thinking it would give me an income. A couple of issues along the way, I discovered that actually as a virtual assistant, you're supposed to be able to type and I couldn't do it very well. So we went for call handling. Um, and it's grown and we're now at 20 staff and we have our own offices, so it's not out my bedroom anymore. Um, and we support 285 clients, a lot of whom are trades, um, clients, to answer their phones, book their appointments, um, you know, work with their software and everything whilst they're working. We do it behind the scenes, so they have like a full-time member of staff working behind the scenes, but Instead of them being there part-time or something, they're there 8 till 6 Monday to Friday, 9 till 1 on a Saturday. And if somebody's on holiday, there's always somebody else to cover.

You also do a little bit of networking as well. Is that correct?

I do a lot of networking. I don't do quite as much at the moment as I used to, but our whole business has grown on networking. And when I first set the business up, somebody said to me, you need to network. And I'm like, okay, is that something to do with computer cables? I had no idea what they were talking about. They actually pointed me, um, they said, um, you know, you need to go along to this meeting. It's, it's a BNI. Well, I thought they flew planes, um, you know, or is it, is it body mass index? It was like, you know, what on earth is this thing? And I went along. It's quite, quite tough. It wasn't one of my favourite experiences, I have to be honest. But the support in the room was, was good. And I decided that I would sign up because I knew nothing about networking. And I didn't know a great deal about running a business. And, and I mean, it's any network, it doesn't matter where you network. I've networked with that many different types of groups over the years. There's good and bad. So it's finding one that suits you, and that actually suits, suits your personality, that you can meet the commitments, and it's got the right mix of people. And even the same groups, even groups in the same organization, whether that be 4N, 5 Alive, BNI, Sterling, whatever, one group can be really good, and the next group just hasn't got it.

So like, like 2 different chapters of BNI, quite different areas. Yeah, completely different.

Yeah, and it can be. But in the first year as a virtual assistant, I got £22,000 worth of business. And just— and that was back in 2008.

And that was just from the BNI.

Yeah.

Okay. And you did one chapter. So this is like the morning, I think it's 6 o'clock in the morning or something like that.

Yeah, half past 6, quarter to 7.

Okay.

You're there for, and it finishes by half past 8. So you normally leave about 9. And it's like, okay, well, I'll have another go. And, you know, let's give it another year and see what happens. And to be honest, Tulloch, I mean, that's what, nearly 17 years ago now. There's, there's myself. I've got James, who's our director, my co-director. He's in BNI. And we've just got another member of staff that's doing some networking. And he's just about to join BNI. But we get— and I make sure you can track everything. Because I think it's really important that you always track the source of where the business comes from.

Is this your sales, your marketing background? Is it coming through the salesman?

No, it was something that somebody taught me. How do you know if it's effective if you don't— if you don't know where it's coming from? So it's like, okay, we'll track it. Um, and actually, I'm going to pull my phone up because I will tell you, um, so this isn't— this isn't scripted. This is— I'm going to tell you what's actually on here. So in the last 12 months to date, so the last rolling 12 months, right, £255,799 That is what we have received as a direct result from BNI referrals, past and new. That's just in 12 months.

Okay, so it worked 17 years ago and it still works today.

Yeah, absolutely it does. But I think the key is people have to remember it's network. It's not net sit, net chat, net booze up. It's net—

There's some work involved.

Yes, you do have to work. You have to work at it. I'm a big believer networking will work for every single business, but it doesn't work for everyone because you can mess it up if you've got to work at it.

Well, what is the actual work then? Because like, if you like, the first time you go to one of these events, you know, you chat to a couple of people, You do have breakfast or lunch or whatever it is, and then you kind of wander off, you collect some names, and then like, what else do you need to do?

Well, for a start, you're going to have to follow up because if I just meet you at a networking event and go, hi, what's your name? What do you do? And that's it. Nothing is ever going to come of that relationship. We need to— so for a start, I would say whatever network you're in, this isn't a big BNI push or anything like that. I'm not going to push any particular network. But if we meet at a network, yes, we'll exchange details. But then let's sit down and have a one-to-one. Let's sit and spend an hour with each other, half an hour on your business, half an hour on my business. And for that, let's prepare. So let's prepare before that meeting, a bit like we prepare for podcasts and you prepare for any pitch you're doing. Let's prepare for it. So have a look at the LinkedIn, see who they're connected to, have a look at their website.

So you would kind of find out a little bit about their business, what kind of overlaps, possible similar customers, those kind of things. Anything else you kind of look for?

Well, I'd like to know about their interests as well. You know, what are their goals? What have they achieved? I mean, that's really, really fascinating because you, their achievements and their interests, you'll see 2 guys sit down And you force them into, into sitting down, you know, you two need a one-to-one, just do it. So they sit down and they're both sat there. Right, my name's Fred. Yeah, I'm Steve. Get them talking on interests. Oh yeah, football's my thing. Oh yeah, I like football too. Which team do you support? And all of a sudden they've got a bond because it's about an interest. Now they're interested in each other. Now it can start to develop because it's a bit like a marriage. You don't walk into a pub, spot a woman at the bar, walk up and say, shall we marry? You know, there has to be a courtship.

Yeah, there's a few, there's a few minor steps before that.

So it's exactly the same. You've got to get to know people. You've got to prove yourself. Are you reliable? There's a saying that comes about from a few of the networks and it's VCP. You've got to be visible and you've got to be— oh, why has it suddenly gone completely out of my head? Visible, credible leads to visibility plus credibility leads to profitability. So if you're visible but you're not credible, it's not gonna be profitable. If you're credible but nobody knows about you, so you're not visible, it won't be profitable.

That visibility, are you talking about you need to turn up regularly, or is that— or is it a mixture of both that credibility and— or are you talking about don't just stand in the corner of the room?

I think it's turning up regularly, being— speaking to people, be visible by what you do. So if you turn up, to a meeting and you just sit there and mumble, nobody's really going to take much notice. But if you show that you've prepared, if somebody passes you a referral, an introduction, a lead, what, whatever, according to whatever they call them, whichever network, if you do nothing, then that's going to hit your credibility and you will become very visible for not Following up. So now you've got full— you've got visibility and you've got no credibility. So it's like, oh, don't go to him, he never follows up. So that doesn't lead to profit. So you've got to do— you've got to do what you say you're going to do. Uh, help others.

These are kind of the basics of normal human interactions, relationships.

Exactly. It is networking. I thought when I first started, I thought, oh, networking, it's never going to work. Didn't understand it at all. Dark science. But actually, it is just being a decent human being. And you don't actually need a networking group. The first network I ever came across, and I realize it now, was the local pub. Because on a Friday night, all the trades guys used to meet up and they would talk about what they were doing, what they'd been doing that week. And it— and you'd see them come in and say, yeah, yeah, I've been, been doing some— the one guy used to do wooden flooring. I've been doing this wooden flooring. Mark, Mark, I need you to come over and have a word with the woman because once I finish, she's going to need it all painted. Can you get that sorted for me? Yeah, no problem, Steve. I'll get that done for you. It's just— and it's like— and she was on about that, that she'd like a conservatory done, you know, and he'd pick up to somebody else, you know, sort of, John, John, can you give her a quote on the conservatory, mate? And, oh yeah, Mark, she's going to need a skip. Can you get the skip sorted? And it would— that's a network. It's my first network.

Quite a fun one as well. Involves less phone calls and, yeah, probably Probably some other things as well.

Yeah, but that's, that's the whole thing, that it doesn't have to be. We have networks at the gym, at some churches. And, you know, there's some— you look at where people are part of a church community, and the network is normally phenomenal because they're supporting each other. And that's all it is, really. It's people supporting each other. So that's— but it's once you're in that environment, I think you've got to be careful because one of the things we do come across is people will say, oh, because it's a business network, I'm here to sell at you. Nah, nah, that doesn't work.

So they're kind of skipping the human side and then By the way, well, you're kind of saying sell at you, so it's not really a discussion, is it?

So yeah, and it's— so you'll, you'll see them stand up, um, and you know, if, if you imagine we've talked about the I'm your PA stuff previously, but if I stood up at a network meeting and I said, um, if you've just done some advertising and you're not answering your phones, then you're wasting your money because you're not going to get the leads when they come in. So what a waste of time that is. Now, that's really— I don't know why, you know, you'd sort of go slap, slap, slap to everybody in the room. But if you twist it and say, I'm looking for those people who have recently done— or those people you may know who have recently done some advertising and don't have the ability To answer all the calls, because that's where we could help rather than waste the money. So I'm not saying it's you, but if the cap fits, you'll wear it. Um, and then maybe I would ask for introductions to, um, advertising agencies because their clients would be good for me.

Okay, so you need to do that, a little bit of preparation, and kind of actually think through Whatever the step is just before your clients actually need you.

That's right.

Yeah, in this case, it's the advertising.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, the tone is really different between one is quite a blaming personal kind of one and the other one is very sort of a bit more helpful and uplifting.

Yeah. So telling stories, I always say to people, imagine is your best friend. To ask people to imagine a scenario, that works really well. But with yourself, you need gas engineers.

Yes.

So, it's like, where else are gas engineers? Let's have a look to see where else they appear. And it may be that actually some of the letting agents are good for you. Because speaking to them about how their gas engineers constantly let them down because they haven't got suitable software in place to record everything, you know, it would be great if you would just tell them. You know, speaking to virtual assistants that work with gas engineers.

Well, for the tradespeople, for the letting agents, if they are using some kind of paper-based system, it's just really painful Like if a job overruns and they need to deliver it on time and the traffic's bad and the letting agent's closing, you know, it is just, it's just really tricky. But yeah, no, it's definitely a good point to, you know, talk to the letting agents because they deal a lot with tradespeople.

Yeah. So therefore, if you were doing your 60 seconds or 40 seconds, whatever, For me, I'd be saying, well, okay, obviously you're going to ask for gas engineers, but try some letting agents as well because they may be able to point you. And some of them actually use 2 or 3 gas engineers, the larger ones. So, you know, could I potentially help your gas engineers to give you a better service?

I think it's a really good idea because if you look, if you're joining the NetWin groups and you're meeting every week, You know, it's a really low kind of way to test out different theories. You're not like sending out 1,000 flyers or whatever. You're just asking for referrals. We use this case of letting agents. And then you, you know, you see what the results are. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not. And then you actually iterate over your marketing quite quickly.

It's the other side that I found it so useful for. And a lot of people will say that do say this is standing up and doing a pitch can be really quite terrifying. And if you went back to 2007, when I set up the business, even though I'd been in sales, if you'd have approached me and said, can you come and do a podcast with me? You'd have seen me halfway down the road. Because it's like, no. It's the thought of it would terrify me. But because I've done so much networking where I've had to stand up and sometimes I've made a complete wotsit of myself, you know, and it's like, yeah, that didn't work. But it's in a safe environment with people that you get to know. I've then gone on and that's led me— I mean, I've done speaking events where I've spoken to like 500 people and been on stage on my own. And it's like, It's okay, it's fine. But it's the confidence. And then there's the connections that it brings you where I'd got some— I had a bookkeeper that had really probably shouldn't be a bookkeeper, in all honesty, but I'd made a mess of things. And it's like, where do I go? What do I do? And I was worried. So I went to the accountant and said, can you help me? Yeah, of course we can. Let's have a look. Let's see how bad it really is.

So this is the accountant within your network?

Yeah, but we've become really good friends. And my accountant, in fairness, his, his daughter was taken very, very poorly a couple of years ago and he was pulling his hair out, you know, terrified. Young, young girl and seriously poorly. And he phoned me up and I said, okay, I can explain that in English to you. Because I'm a nursing background. So it's like, let's just look at this and let's just calm. And he was like, oh, he said, that's brilliant. I said, I feel so much more confident now. And we've just become very, very good friends because he said, you've always been there for me when I've needed somebody. I think it's like sort of, you know, you're a bit like the mother figure, but that's what you get from networking.

But you're just kind of, I think you said it earlier, is helping. I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. If you were like a tradesperson, for example, like a gas engineer or electrician or something like that, what would your kind of like perfect intro be?

I've seen a few really good ones. One of the cracking ones that I saw that I still love was a guy, I can say his company name and everything because he's retired now. But he stood up and he said, good morning, my name's Stuart Munro from Technol Gas Services. Then he went quiet. And he stayed quiet for about 45 seconds. And he said, that's the sound of carbon monoxide killing you. Make sure you get your gas boilers serviced. And it was like, wow. That, that was powerful. So it doesn't always have to be something like that, but it would be, you know, name, where they're from. I'm Fred from Gas Services. And then with them, I'd possibly give a little bit of education, you know, with— it's a legal requirement to get the— for rental properties to have a gas safety certificate carried out. Every year with us at Gas Services, we run a system whereby we manage to ensure that we know when these are coming up and we will sort that on behalf of the landlord. It would— one of the things that I do do, and you have put me a bit on the spot there, normally I can pull these off the top of my head.

I should have pre-warned you.

One of the things that I will do, because they all have slightly different things that they focus on, and I will actually do a 15-minute session with people and I will break their business down into sections. So first of all, we break it into 5 sections. So that might be boilers, fires, landlord certificates, plumbing.

Plumbing.

because some of them do plumbing as well, installations, whatever. So we break it down into 5, and then each of those 5 will break down into 5 again. And that becomes the— each one of those becomes the 60 seconds. So what you sometimes see is they're desperately trying to get in. So, you know, I'm Fred from Gas Services, and we do boiler servicing and breakdowns, and we do callouts, and we do gas installations, and we can repair the radiator, and we can do the— and they just go on and on and on, and it's like nobody's listening. So take each one and make it into a 60-second. So a boiler that's been serviced runs far more efficiently. If it's running more efficiently, it's going to save you money. So I'd actually want to know what the figures are. And it's like, you know, I'm Fred from Gas Services, we do boiler servicing. Why is that even important? Did you know that this number of people, half the population, is spending an extra 25% a year on heating because they haven't had their boiler serviced? Because they think a boiler service is expensive. Running a boiler that's not been serviced is Far more expensive. I'm Fred from Gas Services and we service boilers. I'm looking for an introduction too.

Okay, that's so that, that's because if you meet every week, you do need to come. You can't just say the same thing every time. So if you, if you, if you have this list of different points, you do a little bit of the education, but, um, as well as the reason why. Okay, that works really nicely. So you actually get through all of them and people don't fall asleep in the morning.

That's right. And use props. Props are always good. That keeps people awake. People don't realize there's 4 types of props. So people assume that if I take that with me, that's my prop. Yeah, but there's all sorts of props. So you get, you get a prop as in an item, you get branding props, You know, so people will turn up with them. I mean, wherever I go, I tend to wear pink because it's company colors. You get vocal props, and vocal props are so powerful. My networking now is mainly done online. So a vocal prop is where you'll start off and say, I need to tell you all, stop, stop what you're doing. Straight away, you've got their attention because you've gone from one extreme to another. Or you'll speak really quickly. Let me tell you about Fred. Fred's been running around all day He's a gas engineer and he needs a virtual assistant. Now imagine if Fred had a young virtual assistant who answered those calls. So you take it from one extreme to the other. So with speed, with volume, you can really change, change the whole thing. That will get attention. And the other one, if you're face-to-face, is movement. There's nothing to stop you from moving, walking around, juggling, you know, whatever you want. There's nothing to stop you. Don't do what I did with the frisbee there where I went in and I said it was something about having time to play with your kids. you know, use a virtual assistant to give you the time to play with your kids. I threw this frisbee and knocked somebody's coffee over. That was memorable.

Well, definitely memorable. Did you check on the return on investment from that one though? Maybe it was a good return on investment. People would definitely remember it.

One of the best ones, and I still get referrals from this one 60 seconds, and people still comment on it, and it must be 6 years old. Um, and I asked everybody to stand up. I did ask them to stand on the chairs, but they didn't all do so. To pick up in one hand, I want you to pick up a pen, and in the other hand, pick up your glass and hold them above your head. Now answer your phone. Can't do that. Imagine being 45 foot up a tree with a chainsaw in one hand and your rope in the other hand. Not a good place to start answering your phone. I'm looking for tree surgeons. And I still get referrals off the back of that.

That's a really nice one. You do have some, just some really quite fun ones because I did go to BNI for a period of time. for about, I think it was a year or 2 years went. But yeah, I didn't come across anything quite so fun as these ones. Can you think of any other kind of good examples that people could kind of modify for their own businesses?

Well, I use one. I've got a doll. It's a 2-year-old doll. Well, no, that sounds wrong. It's the size of a 2-year-old. So, and I took this one into a meeting and everybody was like, what's with the doll, Shel? What's with the doll? And I said, you'll see later. And as I stood up, I said, this is Emily. Emily's so excited. And this doll stands like that. So she stood up the wall. I said, but she's so excited. I said, because after, after nursery, they're all going to the park, all her friends. They're going to play on the swings and have jelly and ice cream. Oh, it'll be brilliant. Oh, it's brilliant. Unfortunately, Emily can't go today because the last time Mummy went to the park with Emily, she missed a really important call for Daddy's business and he lost the client. So Emily is going to have to stand up the corner in the office while Mummy answers the phones. I'm looking for those husband and wife teams that would really like their children to have a life.

Wow, that's quite an emotional kind of one.

People buy from pleasure or pain. So, you know, have— and also be— have energy. Never read it. If I'm stood there and I'm going, hello, my name's Michelle from I'm Your PA, I'm not engaging with anybody.

You do need a level, like, like when you first start out, as you say, if you are a little bit shy about public speaking, You know, it would take a little bit to get into this kind of level. But yeah, a bit of practice, push yourself a little bit and, you know, make it happen.

Do you know what? If you've got anybody that's really looking to go out and do any networking, they can always jump on. I do a Tuesday morning and it's on Zoom, so they're always welcome to jump on. Just let me know and I can organize it for them to jump on. Just so that they can see what it is and it won't cost them anything because it's on Zoom. But the— I'm also happy to just do a Zoom with them and say, come on, let's play. No, until you've tried it, you don't know.

Yes. Yeah, that's very generous. Thank you very much. So anyone who's interested, either contact you know, us, and we'll put you in touch with Michelle, or you contact Michelle directly through I Am Your PA. Yeah, it's very helpful.

I was going to say, gas engineers, you know, do so well when they do it right. They do so well through networking because everybody starts to refer them. You know, I'm looking for the— you know, we're coming into cold weather. I'm looking for those pensioners that haven't had their boilers serviced. Let's make sure their boilers do not let them down in the cold weather. And everybody gets all their parents and everybody to do the services. And all you do is you keep that log on the gas software, keep the log so that, you know, next year you book them in anyway and you've got a lifetime client. It's a no-brainer.

Yeah, no, it definitely works quite well. Um, any other kind of tips or anything else you can think of, either somebody starting out or who's actually doing sort of networking for a while?

I think shake it up. It's be, be the person. And remember, when, when somebody is the, the president, the group leader, whatever they want to call them, Taking that is quite difficult, and you've got to keep it on time, and you've got to go around the room, and you've got to make sure that, you know, you have visitors in the room as well, that you keep the energy up. And unfortunately, not everybody has energy. So become your group leader's best friend and be the one that's got energy. So as they go around, they can drop you in And they know that when I come to Tulloch, he'll lift the energy. So become their best friend. It also means if you're the one with energy, if you've got 30 or 40 people in a room, people start to switch off. Be the one that brings them back.

Yeah, you'll be noticed more as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And if— and give them— I have a thing where I say to people when they're struggling with their 60 seconds or 40 seconds, whatever, And I say, make it pub-worthy. So don't overcomplicate it. I need to know the stories that if I was sat in the pub and somebody said something, that I'd go, oh, that's Tulloch. But I'm not here to sell your business. You know, when they say, oh, I've had a right day today, you know, I can't. I've got poured water all over my flaming diary and I can't, you know, all the appointments have smudged and everything. What are you doing using a paper diary? For God's sake, have you not got a system? Right, there's a guy in my network called Tulloch, okay? You're not going to forget that name because it's an interesting name. I am going to send an email to you and him and I'm just going to tell him he's got to have a one-to-one with you. Got it? Trust me on this one, just do it.

Yeah.

And that's how I will put them together. But you'll have given me some story about, you know, it saves time, it means that it's always backed up. There'll be something where I will just go bang, and it's not— I haven't got to start and say, yeah, well, it's stored on a server and it can be used on this and on that, and it does this. I'm not I'm not there to learn your product to sell it.

So you're saying it's more, it's not kind of like on a feature level or it's more on the benefits level, like keeping elderly people warm, children safe, all of that benefits level as opposed to I do this, this, this, this, this.

And, you know, tell the stories, put the horror stories in there. I had an electrician who came in and he was like, you know, this is— he said, I really feel I need to talk about this. He said, because making sure you get a qualified electrician to do the job properly is important. There's a poor kid lost his life, electrocuted at a pub, because the electrician that put the lighting up around the garden hadn't done it right. Now, now the pub's going to go out of business because what's that going to cost them? But what about that mum and dad that went to the pub for a Friday night supper and ended up without a child? Can we stop all these bogus electricians? And it's like, wow. And another one, and it was— and in fairness, this goes back to 2008, and it just shows the power of a good 60 seconds. And it was a will writer based in Wolverhampton. And I saw her and I said, you all right, Max? I said, you don't look— don't look great this morning. She said, oh, I'm tired. She said, I'll tell you about it later. And she stood up and she said, I had to drive to Newcastle upon Tyne last night to do a will for a lady who sadly is very, very ill. And she's not married. She lives with a partner. They have 2 children. And should she pass away, then her parents actually don't like the kids' dad, but they would be able to take control of those children because of the next of kin and everything.

Wow.

So she said, I drove up there. The lady was taken off morphine. for long enough for me to be able to declare that she was truly, you know, compos mentis. And we did the will to protect the children, she said. And I drove back through the night and I pulled up outside and I got a phone call. She's gone.

Wow.

Don't leave the will to the last minute. And it's still— and even now that still chokes me. But I have used that story so many times with people with children and said, Please tell me you've got a will. Uh, it's, you know, everybody should have a will, um, especially if you've got young kids.

If you have— these are just not things that you, you know, you would normally think about, you know, you, or you, you wouldn't really know about until later because, you know, it's not something that happens every day. But, um, you know, if you— so if you're struggling for your 60 seconds Then just look at what you do and then just get stories from that and then that will be, you know, really good. But yeah, that's an incredibly powerful story.

They can also use testimonials, you know. So if somebody's given them a testimonial, read that out as your 60 seconds. I've had a great testimonial from Mrs. Jones in Tetnal. We went out, she's had a few problems with that boiler, went out. And this is what Mrs. Jones had to say about us, and that's why you can refer us with confidence.

Okay, so there's a few different things you can add in there.

Yeah, yeah, there's so much, so much. But it's an open invitation, you know, and even if people want to go to a face-to-face meeting, get in touch. I'll find somewhere for you to go. It doesn't have to be BNI. There's a lot of the property ones are actually very, very good for, especially on the gas engineer side and the electricians.

A lot of landlords.

Yeah. So, you know, Property Investment Network, Property Meets, there's loads.

Yeah, some of them, there's quite a large number of people, like 100 or so and larger. You know, it's a lot of people.

Yeah. So just get involved. But be seen for all the right reasons. And please note, you don't have to be suited and booted. I do not wear suits to network meetings. You don't have to be, but be clean.

These are your tips. Yeah, like for an electrician, would you really trust an electrician that's like completely out? I don't know. Well, you're, you know, in a whole suit, etc. But, you know, you would, you would, well, if it's, if you're doing an early morning session, you're going from that directly to work anyway. So you're in whatever your work clothes is.

Polo shirt or t-shirt, which is branded or something, or just smart. That's why my accountant's turned up in a t-shirt and shorts in the hot weather. It's fine. You know, he's a young accountant, but it's branded. It was a polo shirt, branded, you know, and smart chino shorts. It didn't look out of place.

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Okay, well, thanks very much for all of your help and your tips. It's very useful. And yeah, very, very helpful. Thank you.

Okay. And the offer's extended to you as well, Tulloch. If you want to come to my networking, you know you're always very welcome.

That's very generous. Thank you very much. Certainly appreciate it. Well, there's certainly a lot I can learn, that's for sure, on the networking side. Yeah. Thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

Cheers.

Thank you. Thank you.