#11: Honey Empire with VaynerMedia Chief Heart Officer Claude Silver

Hi, I'm Saya Wakeman, and you're listening to No Ego, a podcast where we teach you how to ditch the drama, end entitlement, and drive big results in your workplace and your world place. Very exciting episode today. I'm here with Claude Silver. Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia. And I'm telling you, I have a new HR girl crush. You have got to listen to this conversation. It's amazing. How are you?

Great.

Good. Thank you. It's surreal. Thank you. It's amazing.

I put it on— I had a photo yesterday of just like kind of things around me. And so this was here and a lot of other books and people were like, oh my God, I know that book on my Instagram.

Oh, cool.

People literally tag you. I

was gonna say, that's the power of your team. You also have a lot of accountability.

So on that note, yesterday we launched our version of Radical Candor training from just taking some bits from Kim Scott. Love the book. Clarity and being specific and kindness is at the top. And I can show you even like the slides. I would love to. You know, deck, and like not only how to give feedback, because that's important, but how to receive feedback and how to ask for feedback from the people that work under you, because that's a real block sometimes, especially if there's no— we don't have that culture necessarily yet.

Yeah, well, if people have the human condition, that culture has to be intentional because your ego doesn't like anything disruptive. Yeah, totally. Our research shows that feedback should be really short and self-reflection long.

I've been doing me for a long time, and, you know, in my 20s I did so much self-exploration in terms of just whether or not I was in therapy or learning clairvoyancy or past life training or going to ashrams, just like, who's Claude? I love those. Because before I was like, what? I'm missing that chip. Like, I'm missing the left brain chip, and I thought that was a dysfunction of Claude Silver. And then slowly but surely I realized that it's okay, like, I'm me. But it took me, it took me a while to accept me.

Yeah.

To accept, like, yeah, I'm skewed EQ, like, I'm skewed right-brained. And so to be able to do critical thinking was something I had to learn rather than, you know, I had to learn how to not to be a sponge for everything and just like, you know, so when I go home—

Turn off the empath button so that you can, like, breathe and live.

So, like, I mean, I, you know, when I go home, I'm still me. I'm not like drained, which is helpful. But, you know, I'm 48, so I've had some practice. I've like put the pedal to the metal.

A lot of times I forget that part, like joyful service to myself, which is what allows me to do all of that.

Right, because you wouldn't be writing, you wouldn't give anything about anyone.

Yeah, it's like called to do that. You know, one of the beliefs that we are really out there promoting is that what we're trying to teach people, like innovation and collaboration, it's like you already have all of that. Once the drama's gone. So if you stop judging and start helping, like, you're already capable of really good collaboration. Like, we can teach you a few skills around it.

Yeah.

But if you can just unhook from that mind, stop believing everything you think, get out of that story, it really is your natural way.

Yeah.

And that for me is such a key message for leadership development because people call me all the time, they're like, come teach my team to be accountable. I'm like, well, I'll teach them to stop judging and start helping, and then accountability will be just what they naturally fall into. And that's the message I'm trying to get to the world of HR is that we really are operating from this whole false premise that people need us to tell them how to be differently. And I'm like, Michelangelo, I think, when he was asked about carving David, they said, was that really difficult? And he said, no. And they said, well, how'd you figure out what he looked like to carve him? I didn't, I just removed everything that wasn't David. And I really think this counterintuitive approach, if I could go out there and just, you know, be most helpful to people, it would be if they got the counterintuitive approach of we don't need to change these folks, we just need to help them remove what isn't authentically theirs, like the worlds they're living in that they created. I

love that.

Drama's emotional waste. How do you eliminate waste? Good process. How do you eliminate emotional waste? Good mental process. So what if the role of a leader wasn't about inspiring you or trying to engage you because that leads to blackmail. Yeah, it's like, what if my role was just to teach you some better mental processes so you didn't suffer quite so much, so the work wasn't that hard? And that's really what we've been out kind of like shifting paradigms. People's minds are blown by it.

Well, today you're gonna do a session.

Yeah,

I'm

so grateful that I have the opportunity to do that.

It's perfect for it. It's perfect.

And if you guys love it, seriously, anytime you want me out here, I would absolutely love it. Like, I am so in love with Failure and Talent. I like, of course, you know, being 52 and they're all in, you know, 20s and 30s, I feel like they're all my— I feel like they're all my kids. Like, they come in, I'm like, let me feed you and get you off the road.

And that's exactly what this— they're like, they come in here and they're like, it's so mellow in here. I'm like, yeah,

it's

what happens.

Yeah, it is. I love that you just don't have the desk. It's like, just chill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to share a thought coming off of what you were saying in terms of like getting rid of what's not needed. So one of the things I talk about a lot is belonging. And, you know, we as human beings are wired to belong. We're wired to be in connection. And you talked about collaboration. Yeah. That's how it spurred for me. When you can get rid of all of that other drama and just be with what is, which is I want to hang with you. I want to be connected to you. I feel something. You feel something for me. Like, our perfect utopia, quite frankly, is that place of trust and And that we can't— because there is nothing else. There is no other noise. It's just that caring of one another, you know, that like, I want to turn you into a champion because I want to turn you into a champion, and vice versa.

And at the base of it, we're all, you know, manifestations of one being, so we're not separate. I want you successful because you are me, and I am— like, why would I want anything else for Right. Any of us. Right. And, you know, the belonging is interesting to me because a lot of people have that yearning to belong, but they think the key is if other people or other circumstances get safer. And where I do some of my best work is helping them understand that perhaps you're the one that's separated out. Because while we need to keep, you know, do our part to make safe environments where people feel like they can belong and trust, Many times the minute you judge, you're the one that stepped off the team. And most people don't realize, like, that power. When they ask me, you know, Sai, I just really want to be empowered, how do I do that? I oftentimes say step into the power you already have, which is to quit, you know, separating yourself out through judgment.

Well, the story.

Yeah, exactly.

With your story.

Yeah, and separation is the greatest illusion. I mean, you know that. It's like, it's the source of suffering.

Yeah. The thing that is so cool for me that you're here and that we work with you and that you're gonna be with Gary today is like, because he's a wizard already, like he's such a shaman, as are we, and that is everything we're talking about is this empirical place that he lives in and he— But

it's so natural, I don't know that he has the words for it.

He doesn't, and so I think The challenge is that he's there, he doesn't have the words, and he looks at orgs— I'm speaking for him, of course, so forgive me— but he looks at orgs and he's like, but why? But why is that conflict happening? You know, like, why are— why? It doesn't need to, because he's not in that place. Yeah. He's in that place of like, he just comes with Openness, you know. And so that's why you're here. That's why I'm here, to help people. You used a word actually. So we use reverse engineer, and you used a word that starts with a D. It was like to turn, to turn a thought around.

Reframe or—

Reframing. You used an amazing thought, which is this, which is what we want to do here, which is to get people to You used it also when you were saying belonging. Sometimes you have to remind that person or get that person to open their eyes that they're coming in with ego first.

Yes.

That's how I thought about that, which is a huge mind shift when you think it's me against them all day long. That's not, that's not. It's we are the same. I am you, you are I.

And if we can start from that place, Which I find many times in our craft of HR that people have over-rotated for engagement. Like, how can I create perfect circumstances for you to rise up? But engagement without accountability creates entitlement. And that's really where the rub comes in because the accountability isn't what everybody's preaching out there, like whose butt's on the line and, you know. Yeah. It's helping people be accountable to the truth. And, and so, and by truth, not like my moral truth, but if I'm accountable to the truth, I'm not in story. And when I'm accountable to the truth, then we totally, you know, are gonna connect. Yeah. I'm in a study right now, a program. Lee Kaiser, who does a lot in healthcare, but it's called the Alchemy Program, and it's just learning how to add that which is missing. missing. So that's what alchemists do really, is they have—

Teach.

Yeah, they look at the organization. So Gary just naturally is resonating at just this natural level. But it's just like me when I'm public speaking. People are like, can you teach me to speak? I'm like, no, because I have no idea how I do it. Like, my head opens up and like stuff from the universe comes down, and I find myself even saying stuff I'm like, that was hot, like that was good, and I don't know where it came from, right? It's like, I'm gonna go research that. And so I think people like you and I can help manifest things into words that the masses can understand. Yes. 'Cause there's a need for a great translation from the yoga mat to work and from meditation to work. And there's not a lot of people working in that space that says, this means that when, you know, the creatives are mad at the designers, that, you know, we need a ladder for them to work through this. We can't just go, you guys, this shouldn't be happening, knock it off.

Right, right, right. And I think to your point that what we started about in terms of feedback, when I was telling you about radical candor and feedback, that's where we get stuck, which is, guys, this shouldn't be happening. Well, that doesn't tell me anything. Yeah. I don't know what you mean.

Well, it tells me that now I suck.

It tells me that now I suck and that you don't have the answers, actually. I'm like, well, HR's not going to have the answers either.

In fact, we need to go underground with this.

Right.

And that's probably the biggest thing I found when I have led HR teams is we might sit back and complain a lot about them and them going underground or them not having their ducks in a row. And I'm like, but we're the ones that are supposed to be helping. What if I was a physician who just complained about the patients and every time they came to me, I shamed them a little bit and then was mad that they didn't comply with what I asked them to? And I just found that a lot where I was in a lot of meetings where we were talking more about the people than we were out like amongst the people. And, you know, that was my early career. I'm just like, let's move this around differently.

Did you start— so you started as a therapist?

I started as a therapist and I was promoted into leadership in a behavioral health center. And I'm like, I teach my clients this all day long. You're all therapists. None of you use this. Like, I was probably a little righteous because I was so shocked by it. Then I moved into— my first love was microlending. I studied economic international relations, and I was set up to go to the Peace Corps in my 20s to work with women in a microlending program. It was really new stuff.

Africa?

Yep, in Africa, in Kenya. And then Reagan got elected, Star Wars started, Peace Corps went away. Like, we all got cut. So I went back and got my therapy degree because I was in therapy. I was working with kids, volunteers, working with their families. And but then I got promoted to leadership. Then I went back and got my master's in business and healthcare. But then I eventually was leading large health systems and just got asked to speak a lot at conferences. Yeah. This is before I worked in HR, and I would go to HR and they would come to me and they would say, you're getting amazing results and your people are super happy. And so they assumed I was following their manual. And they're like, will you speak on these panels? Our representative— I go, I kind of got to talk to you because what I'm going to say on the panel is not anything that you taught me, and you might freak out by what I say.

Yeah.

So I started on the circuit where people just asked me to come speak on panels, and then people People call me and they're like, will you come consult? So I had my first son, went home, was just gonna be home, and I wanted to be granola girl and like canned vegetables. And like, that would just be— if I had my druthers, I would be— I see that. Yeah, I'm like, exactly. And people kept calling me for projects. So my bosses had scattered different places. They're like, just come in and get my team working. Like, because I was a turnaround person, they would send me into an area not working. And so, yeah, they kept asking me to come back. Eventually I ended up leading HR for a large medical system, and they were like, can we go to SHRM? I'm like, what's SHRM? Absolutely. My name is yes. I'd always go, my name is yes, let's figure out how. Now what's SHRM? And they're like, oh my God.

I was like, SRHM? I was like, I don't know.

I keynoted for them. They're like, you're certified, right? I'm like, certified?

I'm like,

I'm kind of not a joiner. They're like, ah! But so it's finding a way to move in those worlds. But yeah, so that's my background. I led a lot, but then I went into consulting and researching, and I stumbled on just the average person spends 2.5 hours a day in drama. And I was able to quantify for businesses the cost of drama, and that really kind of—

That's, that's a winning formula.

Yeah, that spoke a language that people could go, oh, I get it.

Oh yeah. Oh, that ROI.

Yeah, because most people were coming in with the same language, but they were like scarf people, I call them. They're like, you know, let's get together and drum, and the CEO and the CFO are like, what?

Yeah, they're like, that just costs— yeah, yeah.

But I know there's ROI to drumming, right? But so I just came in through the back door. I'm like, we're not gonna call it drumming, I'm not gonna wear any scarves, and we're gonna teach you New Age philosophy, but you're never going to know it.

That's exactly what's up. I mean, that's so last night I spoke on a panel was for HR tech. I'm the last person in the world that need be on that, right? I mean, I'm not HR. You know, we change this to people and experience team because I would be so out of integrity to be overseeing something called HR, right? I don't. So it's people and experience, of course. Then we hired an. VP of HR who can get into the nitty-gritty of it. The operations, yeah. Yeah, but like, this is backdoor, you know, it's backdoor Claudia here.

Yeah.

You know, in fact, Claremont University called, reached out to me the other day and wanted me to speak, wants me to speak at their positive psychology master's program, which is kind of the biggest honor of my life. Oh! And so I'm talking to the professor and he says, so We saw this video that Gary did of you on DailyVee and I couldn't believe you were using positive psychology techniques. And I'm like, yeah. Only always. I'm throwing it all.

These guys are at InScape. These guys are like—

That's the beauty of what I can do here. Well,

it's not a program, it's not a fad. It's a way. It's just a way.

It's a way. I think that I'm really lucky that I can do it here with Gary because this is a playground for me. I'm getting a lot out of

it. Oh, I bet.

My purpose is met every second of every day. You know, I feel like I'm getting juiced every day and hopefully they're getting juiced too. Yeah. But this, what you're bringing in, is magic. Real magic.

I'm so excited. I've been wanting to meet you a long time.

Yeah, vice versa. I like seriously was. I was like, all right, all right, all right, where, what, how?

I was like, it will unfold. Like, I didn't want to call you out and go like, I'm sorry I did this. I was like, I believe more. In fact, how'd the panel go though? I gotta hear the rest of the story. Did it go great?

Yeah, it was good.

Awesome. I love that you get to speak, um, because I really think that we just don't have the translators to bring positive psychology into— like, even some of the people who write, when I read their I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so amazing. You know, are you familiar with Byron Katie? Yeah. So I absolutely— I go to her school, I go to the cleanse like pretty much every year if I can. And she wanted to get into businesses. I'm talking, you know, and Katie's like totally out there if you ever have a conversation

with her. I never have, but like she's somewhere over there with like Abraham Hicks.

Yeah, and she was on the Oprah Show and No one got it because it's kind of like the Gary thing. She has it, but the translation— so that's why in my first book I translated for her the 4 questions into business.

That's amazing.

And so, I mean, for her, she doesn't need any translation, but what we talked about was she kind of flamed out in business because they're here. I don't even like hierarchy, but they're here and she's like here. And kind of like Gary, like all these shamans are out there. I love that word. And I'm like, what she said and how you can use this when you're fighting with a design team and you fell in love with your own design and now you're pissed that they— is this. And I could just translate, and that has been so important to people. Oh yeah, there's this field beyond judgment, this field of no ego, what work could really be like. I will meet you there. Like that, I know there's this field beyond ego that just is Spectacular, like the last hour we've spent. Yeah, work could be like this.

Yeah, every day.

Yeah, every single day.

Every minute of every day.

I will take you up on that because the other thing we gotta center around— have you ever heard Sarah Kay? She's a voice poet.

No.

She does a lot here in New York.

Okay.

Um, she does a Voices Project for, um, she works with kids to find their voice, but she did a TED Talk, millions and millions of views because she's so good. But she's here in New York, and she— you might want to bring her in sometime. Her performances, yeah, are mind-blowing, are absolutely mind-blowing. And she's— it's Sarah Kay, and it's called the Voices Project.

Voices.

Yeah. And Sarah is with an H, I think, and then Kay is K-A-Y. I've spoken on the same stage with her a couple of times, and I rarely see folks that I'm just kind of jaw dropped over.

Yeah.

And she just comes at your brain in a whole nother way. And especially for many of your folks, really are creative types. Yeah, they would love that. And she talks about breakthroughs, planned and unexpected. And most of us get too focused in our life, especially in our 20s, on planned breakthroughs. And it's what Gary talks about. It's like you can't plan always your breakthrough. Now work hard, but also know there's these unexpected breakthroughs that just come by being good to people and living a good life and not having motive and just living without expectations. That's right. And she really hits on that topic. That's good career advice for people.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

All right, cool. So we have a date.

Yes, totally. We're gonna figure it out. I want multiple. I told Lindsay already, I'm like, I'm gonna like— this is gonna be my new life. We're buds. Yeah, not only are we buds, but I'm just gonna like— nobody will know this— I'm just gonna kind of like come work out of here. I'm just like, I'm so camping out here.

Done. And wherever,

like, I'll be like, I'll be the author in residence. Like, for the president, you have to have like an author in residence. That's what I'll be.

And you could just hot desk.

Just go around. I'll go around to the desk with all the booze on it. I'll be like, hey, can I borrow your Glenlivet?

Yeah, there's a lot there. There's— I got a closet full over there.

I love it. Oh no, it's— I'm so glad we met. This is exciting.

Yeah, me too, man.

But you gave me an And idea, because when we first designed the show, the podcast No Ego, the idea from the talent team was you could go around and interview like a lot of HR, like CHROs, and then have that be like your format. That's the idea they pitched to me. Super good idea, except what I talk about is other than what 95% of the CHROs are going to do. Yeah. thought that over and I go, you know, logically it sounds right, but I just don't know how I could salvage, like, a conversation with a lot of the CHROs I meet who are fabulous people, big-hearted, doing great stuff, but how I could listen to kind of their philosophy and try and work it back into, like, very counterintuitive interpretations of that.

Right.

And so I almost think we need to form— like, you gave me an idea for the podcast, like, we need to do this more often.

Yeah.

To put out like kind of the new, you know, no ego, big heart HR stuff. Like what's up and what HR and people experience. I don't want to just categorize this into HR. It's not that. But from the people side of business, what we could do. And I've even thought of when Gary did the thing, what's the ROI of your mother? Yeah. It's so applicable to what What's the ROI of people experience? Because people are like, tell me the ROI. I'm like, go watch What's the ROI of Your Mother and then come back and talk to me.

Totally. Because they want— and I love that they want to be able to quantify. I understand there's a bottom line. I do.

They're accountable to that, right? They've got to report to that.

Totes, totes, totes. I don't live in that world, but I'm aware of that world, you know. I remember what I was going to say. So we were talking about shamans and And the other thing I say to the team out here are marvelous, wonderful, incredible people who are homegrown for the most part, except for the one VP, is that they're actually Sherpas.

I love that.

And that's what I was just saying.

Shamans and Sherpas, that's your book.

Yeah, Shamans and Sherpas. All right, all right. Can I— I'm gonna give you a little, uh, quotation.

Give me a Tuesday night with you and Marianne. But Shamans and Sherpas, that's your new book.

That's it. Cool.

Oh, and one more. Yeah, shamans, Sherpas, and shempa. Isn't shempa— Pema Chödrön talks about— I think it's called shempa, and it's the outer case of a nut. Okay, so like a coconut, but it also is a word for like when you get hooked in your own ego, shempa, and you become a nutcase. Oh my God, the case of a nut. And in the temples in India, when I walked into one temple, there was, um— and you'll see them a lot, like a basin, and they have a pointy thing like carved out of marble coming up like a pyramid, but there's a basin. And I'm like, what's that for? And they're like, you bring a coconut in southern India and you smash it on that thing and the water runs out. That's why— or the milk. That's why it's a basin. And I think it's called a shampa. What that illustrates, or what that metaphors for you when you walk in, is that you have crushed your ego and you come in open. And I thought, awesome, that is so awesome. All right, I'm gonna look up the spell. I think it's called Shemsha, and Pema Chödrön is the one who I learned about it from. But she's like, basically it's called an ego hook, when your ego gets hooked. And but it comes from this word, it also means the outside of a coconut. And I'm like, I don't get it. And then she kind of laughed, she goes, so when you become a nutcase, the case of a nut, this is how you remember it. Because I couldn't remember Buddha's words. She She's like, here's how you remember. I'm like, OMG.

You've been with—

I've been with people. Well, me and a couple hundred people. Been with.

Like Guru Mai. She was someone that I was really into for a while. I would do her New Year's chanting in Palm Springs.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, so we're going to be spending some time together. The other thing I was going to say is, so you mentioned your friends You were crumpled up in a ball, kind of rocking back and forth. And then your friends read you A Course in Miracles. When I was crumpled up, they read me When Things Fall Apart. I should have gotten that book.

Oh my God.

It must be crumpled and yellow in my bookshelf.

I've bought so many copies of that to give to people in pain. Like, I'm like, it may not seem like a good idea, but read this book. It might help.

I have chills.

I'm like, I never know what to say to people who believe their life is falling apart because I'm usually so excited for them.

Exactly, because that's gonna be great. That's the, you know, that break, that breakdown to break through.

Yeah,

you know,

so which I think is our role a lot when we're working with people in the human experience, is being with them through the breakdown and being the holder of the hope because they can't yet feel it. But that's why even just like giving somebody feedback They sense the pain of it, but I think we sense the glory of it. It's like, oh my gosh, this is going to be so important for you to learn right now, and it's not personal. I can tell you 100 stories of how I had to learn that and still learn it.

Right. I actually would love to send you this deck, and I would love any of your edits, but what I started with is feedback is an act of caring, and when you choose not to give feedback, you are actually manipulating that person's growth and development. You are controlling their

motive. You are, right? Withholding of feedback is controlling. Byron Katie— that is ego. Byron Katie has this prayer, and she said every morning get up and ask to be released from the need for love, approval, and appreciation. Because if I need your approval, I won't give you feedback. If I need your appreciation or your love, it keeps me from honestly Honestly being you. And the ego is a filter on reality, and it distorts, it interferes with our direct connection with reality. If you can be directly connected to reality, you're directly connected to the source. Oh my God. You're in presence. But your ego is like wearing a pair of prescription sunglasses that are not your prescription, or prescription eyeglasses. So when I don't give you feedback, I screw up your, your relationship with reality.

Yeah, and the source.

You're not getting the source. source because I'm manipulating that. But what I do have to do for feedback is make sure that the feedback is coming from not my judgment and ego, right?

That it's coming from this.

Yeah, it's coming from a place of no ego.

That I care, I want you, please. You are— I think it's going back to you are I, I am you. Yeah, so we both, we both benefit. And then of course this place has more success.

Yeah,

yeah, cool.

Claude, thank you so much. This is the first of many conversations. It was fabulous to have time to just chat.

Sai, thank you. I've been waiting to meet you, and I can see why. And I just can't wait to see you around more often. Thank you so much for sharing your magic with me.

My pleasure. And right back at you. Thank you so much for joining the episode today. If you're loving this podcast, just make sure that you check me out on Facebook and Instagram, and especially YouTube.