#17: Inside Out Leadership with Robb Holman

Hi, I'm Sy Wakeman, and you're listening to No Ego, a podcast where we teach you how to ditch the drama, end entitlement, and drive big results in your workplace and your world place. Welcome to this episode of the podcast. It's always such a pleasure to have guests join me on the podcast. And today I'm so excited. I've got Rob Holman, and he is with Inside Out Leadership. And so you'll be hearing him talk about his book as well that he's written by the same name. But before we get to that great conversation, if you're not familiar with Rob, he is an internationally recognized leadership expert. He's a keynote speaker. He's an author. But what I love most about Rob is he's got this heart for authentic relationships. This guy goes beyond ego and really focuses on how to connect in that place I talk about beyond ego, and really equip people to get ready for success. He's done lots of great, interesting work with people around the globe. And so I'm just going to welcome you. Welcome, Rob, to the podcast.

Sy, great to be with you. I'm looking forward to the conversation, and I think that there's a lot of synergy that we have with our messages. So I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes today.

Absolutely. I am too. I am too. You know, I had not known you intimately or closely until you reached out as you were working on this incredible project that we'll talk about in just a minute. But I would like for readers to get to— readers, gosh dang, listeners to get to know you. Tell me a little bit about not only the work you do, What are some of the fun things from your background that you bring with you to the experience?

Yeah, great question. You know, I, hopefully this will let you in a little bit about who I am. I'm reminded as I hear that question, I'm reminded when I was 5 years old in kindergarten, it was rest time and everyone gets their little floor mats and you space them out in the room and it's time just to be quiet. Well, And at that point, I didn't go by Rob with 2 Bs. I went by Robby, the name Robby with an IE at the end. And little Robby didn't like that too much. And I remember, like, we'd all went to our certain places in the room, and I was like, life's too short. There's too much I gotta get to know about my peers and the people in my class. And so I would just gradually just navigate towards the closest person to me and just talk and listen. And of course, I got in a lot of trouble in doing so. But I'd like to say I've grown up a little bit, being in my early 40s now. But my heart has never changed. I love people and I'm passionate about understanding people. And that means giving a good listening ear to them. It means it's not as much about me. And that's why I love the whole no ego thing and heart message that you have, Syd, because at the end of the day, I've just come to the experiential understanding that it's not about me. It's about other people. And if there's ways that I can come alongside like I did when I was 5 years old, just to listen, to share in life experience, to get to know that much more, then I can find ways very intentionally to get to serve, get to encourage, get to Get to affirm that individual that I'm spending time with, and so that feeds right into the work I'm doing today. That's filled with purpose and meaning and significance because it's not about me; it's about the other individual, and it takes time to get to know that individual. But nonetheless, I love to look into the eyes of people and maybe point things out that they may not see in themselves—seeds of greatness, good things—and if I happen in that process to see maybe some obstacles, some barriers, I want to see those things removed so they can operate and function. and who they were designed ultimately to be.

I love that. I love a couple of things I pull out and I'm reminded of as you're talking is just that ability to sit beside someone. And also as a leader, that our role is to at times help people see what is getting in their way. And a lot of times we can only see that from our seat in the house. It might be something they haven't really self-reflected on or have moved Forward. You know, you're talking reminds me, gosh dang, I haven't thought about kindergarten and those mats for a long time. As an introvert, I loved that time where everybody just shut up for a while. And, but I had a funny story when I was on that mat. I woke up from my nap and there was a little boy next to me and he was holding my hand. Oh. And during that whole exercise, or during that nap time, and I remember waking up and being a little surprised that he was holding my hand. Of course, this was far before where this would be, like, deemed sexual harassment.

Sure.

But, um, what he said to me that day, he was kind of shocked too, and we were like 5. And he just looked over at me, he goes, I get scared sometimes.

Oh, wow.

And I go, I said, me too. And we were like buddies. His name was Craig. We were buddies for, like, the rest of our school time because, you know, just the ability to be with somebody, um, as they go through it. So, so, yeah. Now you're out really worldwide helping bring your message and helping people learn to, it sounds like, sit beside one another and bring out the best in each other. And you've got a concept called Inside-Out Leadership. Help me understand your take on leadership. It sounds fascinating.

Sure, yeah, no, I appreciate that. So I've just, with my own experience, I'm what people would probably call a serial entrepreneur. I've started about 9 organizations in the last 20 years. A few nonprofits, some for-profits as well. So based on my experience and statistics, because I'm a statistics person as well, there's these alarming statistics that have been out for years. And a study done just a couple years ago that I gained a lot from said that nearly 90% of workers, employees, team members if you will, they are disengaged from their work. So in other words, disengagement meaning lack of purpose and passion in what they do day in and day out in the workplace. Now, sadly, their leaders, the entrepreneurs, the business owners, the supervisors, the managers of these workers, of these team members, they're not too far behind at about 80%, nearly 80%. So at the end of the day, both workers and employees and their leaders are disengaged. And so now leaders know that there's an epidemic here. They know that there's a problem. So what I've been even more alarmed at has been what they're trying to throw at that problem. Um, and so they're throwing a lot of outside techniques and strategies that are a bit more motivational in nature, uh, from the outside, trying to get into the heart of the individual to, uh, compel them to action. And I think it's somewhat noteworthy, it's somewhat admirable, but the problem is in that a lot of money, in my opinion, has been wasted. I think there's a better way to go about it. Absolutely. Better way to go about it. Why don't we understand the heart of that individual, that worker, that leader, understand the heart. See, and it begins with the leader. If we want to see teams change, we want to see business culture change, environments change, it begins with you and me as the leader. And so I have just pushed the pause button and with the leaders say, you matter. I care about you. I want to make sure that you have a good handle, a good embrace with who you are as a person that then naturally feeds into your leadership. And so it's a truly, it's an inside-out way of going about it. I've developed a whole whole process to take people through, truly leading from the inside out as opposed to the outside in.

You know, I love that. I love that. A lot of my listeners know that I speak a lot on engagement and the fact that, you know, we're so focused on the circumstances and how to improve those to somehow entice people to get engaged. But the reality is is that engagement comes from knowing where I can have impact. And finding a place for impact comes from self-reflection. And I think a lot of leaders are disengaged because they don't know how they can impact the lives of others. They don't really know how they can plug and play. And so what I love about where you're going with your work is if you can help them move to a higher level of consciousness and help them really get clear about where they can have impact, impact in the lives of their team members, they're going to engage. So if I can self-reflect, figure out how I can have a chance of impact, it's going to be natural engagement because impact brings excitement and energy for making a difference. So perhaps we might not have time for the whole process, but what are a couple of tips that you bring out or you highlight as I, as a leader, am looking for ways in which to first You know, go inside myself and develop and then impact others? Are there some quick things you can lay out for listeners?

Absolutely. I think, you know, I'll touch on at least some of the foundations. Everything good, as you already highlighted, begins with awareness. That self-reflection speaks and shouts awareness. And so the process really begins with laying out the inside-out leadership foundations. And then we go on from there to talk about the core convictions of an inside-out leader. And then we turn the corner and start looking at the leader's business through a completely different lens. But I want to talk briefly about the foundations. I think that, you know, for any house, for instance, right, to stand any storm, withstand any storm, there's got to be healthy and proper foundations laid in, you know, as you're building a house. So if you view yourself as a person and as a leader, you know, you are a temple, you are a home, you're a place that— and you want to be a good steward of yourself at the end of the day, if you want to be a good steward of other people and other things that have been entrusted in your care. So one of the primary foundations that I like to talk about is it's all about perspective. Perspective means everything. I don't know about you, Cy, but I get so accustomed sometimes to driving the same road, taking the same route, whether it's a half hour away, that I'm just used to going to this cafe across town or into a city or a town. I get so used to traveling the same road that it almost is like, wow, I just kind of show up. I'm so used to seeing the same scenes, the same landscape, the same et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But all of a sudden, one day, I see something— a house, I see a tree that I've never seen before, and it gets my attention. And all of a sudden, I start— I can't help but go down the road, be like, are there other things along this road that I've never seen before? And it gives light to more purpose and more significance, even as I travel that road yet again the following day or the following week or the following year. See, perspective in our lives is very similar. It does start with self-reflection. We've got to now be willing to go on a self-discovery process to understand, to become aware about things about ourselves so that we can have greater awareness of the things around us, the people, the circumstances, etc., so we could be of greater good. The first foundation, it's all about perspective. When we can begin to have an inside-out perspective about ourselves, and I'll give you an example. For me, there's a big difference, like an inside-out perspective may be, there's a big difference between self-discovery and self-help. Self-help is not bad, but I feel like even in self-help many times we're trying to put ourselves back together again. We're trying to strive to become a better me. Self-discovery is deeper, in my opinion. It's deeper. It's more significant. It's truly about self-reflection. Self-discovery is going on a self-exploration to find out the seeds of greatness that are on the inside of me, that when we fully are aware of those things, the strengths, the gifts, the skill sets, now there's no need to compare ourselves with other people. And now we begin having awareness and beginning embracing more and more of who we are. Now, out of that place, the lens of ourselves, the lens of our environment and atmospheres around us just shift and change for the better.

I love it. I love it. Yeah. You know, Rob, when you talk about that first foundation of perspective, a couple of things come to mind for me. And, and one of them is A lot of people don't realize how often their ego's out to play at work. And that ego really gets our focus to be more and more narrow, where we start shutting out more and more pieces of information about ourselves and about the world. And, you know, one of the video series we do on YouTube is Through Cy's Eyes, and it really involves a lot of travel. And I find one way that wakes me back up is when I travel, because it shakes things up. Yeah. And I start to get to know know myself in different ways by being in unfamiliar situations. And so I love that even on the same road to work, when I come back from travel, my thinking's been interrupted. I really see things differently. And so I think from a perspective viewpoint, it's so important to interrupt our thinking in different ways. And I just, I love what you said about self-discovery. Because, you know, a lot of times people ask me, Sy, how do I make my team more collaborative or more accountable? And I tell them that's really their natural state once the drama's gone. Once they get out of ego into self-reflection, you will find all of that there. There's all these pieces of greatness there, but we really just got to kind of uncover them.

I love that. And, you know, I love what you said. When you go on your travels and you taste of a different culture, a different subculture, you get out of your comfort zone. And you begin to say, I have a lot to learn from this group of people, this area of the world, this region of the world. And case in point, I've had the opportunity to teach on my Inside-Out Leadership philosophy in the Middle East a number of times. And just the fact in Eastern culture is so different than Western culture. Now, Western culture is beautiful and there's different and wonderful things that we have, but we need to know we're influenced greatly by Greek way of thinking, which is a bit more methodical and, you know, it's like file folders. Things are nice and neat, things have categories, and that there's a place for that. That actually helps with long-term sustainability. However, sometimes things that can become dry and there's no life and vibrancy built within that. When I travel to the Middle East and I learn from these men and women that are so sharp and they're so receptive, I'm like waiting with bated breath, like, what I can take back with me that changes my perspective. And so Eastern culture, for instance, right, it's holistic in nature. You know, it's like instead of like categorical boxes, we're trying to put everything in boxes here in the West. Over in the East, they— it's like a wheel with many spokes and everything fits together with a larger picture. And so there's a lot more dotted lines, a lot more gray areas than black and white. And I'm like, wow, wow, both together, so much, so much meaning and purpose that it changes my perspective. There's no doubt about it.

It really does. It really does. I can't wait. I love my time in India. For that very reason. I get to experience Cairo in December. So I'm really looking forward to North Africa. You know, from an ego perspective, not that everything's about ego, but it's like, an ego would love to lull us to sleep and just have us start seeing the world in kind of a one-dimensional way. Oh, so true. Because it's really easy to be right about something that's one-dimensional, and the ego loves to be right. And a lot of perspective that I hear is all about waking up. And, you know, what can I do to wake myself up, whether it's travel or whether it's looking at the same road I'm traveling every day differently? Yeah. And I think for leaders, a lot of us get into a rut where we stop the process of waking up. And in Reality-Based Leadership, we talk a lot about interrupt your thinking and reveal the truth. And then we'll settle the mind, you know, again, because we don't I don't want you walking around uncomfortable, but, uh, what are the other foundational pieces? That was an awesome one.

Yeah. Another one would be redefining success. Uh, I've just found again in our culture, in Western part of the world, but any, any culture for that matter, uh, we can let our culture define success for us. And it's almost like this strong pull, this strong current. An illustration I use is it's like you're out in the ocean. I love to body surf. Especially that kid in me comes alive all over again. Man, I just keep on going back to being a 5-year-old in the class. I'm sorry, Sy, I just— that's me. But I just— for me, there's something about going out in a body of water and just swimming. But on occasion, the current will be so strong that maybe I'll start right before the lifeguard stand, in between the 2 green flags of the lifeguard stand, and make sure that I'm— but if I'm out hanging out, I'm riding the waves, I'm floating in the waves, if I'm not focused on the lifeguard stand, listen, just 2 or 3 minutes can go by and I'm pulled like 2 blocks over to the right That's

a great

analogy. Wow, it's so powerful. So, if we're not careful, our lives, our culture can pull us with defining success for us only for us to wake up, you know, 2 hours, 2 weeks, 2 years, or maybe in a whole lifetime to be like, oh my goodness, like the culture just defined success for me. So, I want to help people have a level of awareness that they can help redefine success for what truly matters to them. You know, for me, for instance, right, people say, Rob, how do you define success? Is it dollar bills? Is it, you know, is it people I meet? Is it— it's having a positive influence with people all over the place. For me, if I— whether that's I'm sitting across the table from someone or I'm on a podcast like yours, Cy, and meeting you and talking to you, I just want to make a positive impact as short or as long as that is, as high or as deep as that goes. I want to make a positive influence on every person I come across because, in my opinion, And those are the things that are reproduced in a very healthy and dynamic way where long-lasting life just comes from it. So I think redefining success is an important foundation within inside-out leadership because you get an opportunity as a person and as a leader to take a closer look at the things that matter to you. And in that, you begin taking the bull by the horns and start You know,

I love that. I love the reminder to just take a look at what's energy building and energy depleting from an inside perspective and defining success on what builds my spirit and what depletes my spirit. Because externally, you know, there's, there's a lot of people willing to define success for you. And, and it's not long lasting. And do you think that over time, we as leaders, we can get used to that? The definition of success can change depending on what period of life you're in.

It's true. That's so true. And, you know, too, I'll just state this. You know, I think this can be obvious for so many. So case in point, you know, our culture can define success, at least in America, American culture, like married by a certain age, kids by a certain age, 6-figure income by a certain age. You know, in the speaking world, I'm a platform speaker by a certain age, you know, and it's like, okay, as important as those things are, or certainly can be. I know some people that, you know what, they don't really have a heart to get married by a certain age because they've really embraced their singlehood and everything, but yet they feel this pull, this, you know, people tugging on them that they should. And so they can almost begin to make decisions out of that place. And we can take it into working environments. You know, there's certainly expectations that leaders have for their employees, their workers. There's no doubt about it. We need to live up to those expectations, but we're going to be more freely to do so. And we're going to be— actually, I'll even use this word— compelled. Compelled. To do so. If we're out of a place of defining success, redefining success for who we are, understanding who we are at not just a surface level but a very deep level, profound level, that should free us up to walk not in cockiness, not in ego, but in a genuine sense of humility. I have found the greatest impact, the greatest productivity is when you live and you camp out and you walk Out of a place of genuine humility.

Absolutely. I think so many times other people need for us to be a certain way or to do a certain thing, you know, for them to make sense of the world. And, you know, it's just really taking a look at what brings us that satisfaction and what brings us that piece of it. And I think For me, it's like, I can do my part and live my purpose. And then there's this great letting go where then the universe can do the rest of it. So I don't— instead of living life with these expectations, I try and live life with like this great expectancy. Love it. That, you know, you and I are both authors. It's like, I can write the book and whatever goals I have for the book, you know, I might as well just throw out because once the book is written, I've done my part. And then the rest is up to the universe. You know, I'm still gonna work hard and promote a message, I think, that will help people. But there comes a point where you, you really understand what's yours, and then what's time to let go. And I think people that have these goals and hold on so tightly to what culture defines as success, they have such a narrow view because they miss out on all the things, all the opportunities that they, they can't see 'cause they're driving so hard for a goal, and they miss out for what the universe really has in store. Yeah. Sorry,

I couldn't— yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, you know, that whole— and I talk about this in the book, the first chapter is that whole expectations and expectancy. I'm so glad you highlighted that. I won't take long with this, but I just wanted to, you know, emphasize that point a bit further. You know, we can— if we live a life of expectation, then in a sense, in our own heart, we have the whole thing laid out perfectly. But when it doesn't happen in that way, the play out of our life We can oftentimes leave discouraged or frustrated and go into that negative mode, a downward spiral, if you will, of emotions and how we feel.

We're chronically disappointed then in ourselves and others.

That's right. But yet living a life of having expectancy, now you know that there's gonna be good that's gonna come about, that you have a part to play in this. And so you go, you keep on keeping on, but you're gonna hold loosely onto the play out, the details. But you know what's gonna happen. You know there's gonna be open doors and there's gonna be favor in your life and there's gonna be Good. But again, you may not define fully and specifically what that's going to look like, but keep it with an open hand because there could be amazing surprises that are right around the corner of what it's actually going to look like. So keep that open hand. Open hand means open heart. Open heart means open mind. And so again, it gets back to perspective, the abundance mentality. And I just find it's a great way to live and a great way to lead others out of that place. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, we are— even though we're just getting to know each other, Rob, I talk about open heart, open mind a ton. And I love what you're saying about perspective. And, you know, also about this whole piece of defining your own success. And what I find ironic, and I want to get to your 3rd principle, but I find ironic is that many times when people define their own success, even though it's what we want to do in our own hearts, we get mad at them for it. And I think that's what the big rub is with a lot of the millennials is so a lot of us bought into what our culture defined as success, and we sometimes know the emptiness of that. And so I think people in my generation— I'm 52— we started to pick up on, hey, wait a minute, you know, let's live life differently. Well, these millennials came along already born smarter than we were, and they're living life on their own terms, and we're mad at them for it. Right. And I hear people go, well, They just want to, you know, have work-life balance. And I think, well, don't you want work-life balance? Yes, but since I denied myself that, they should deny themselves that. And it's funny how even we try and hold other people to standards as leaders that we don't even believe in.

So true.

But we just think we have to walk this cultural path. So you've got— I know there's many foundations, but I think there's a third one.

Yeah.

And I would love to hear that one.

Yeah, the third one is the authentic you. And again, each one builds off one another, and that's the beauty of foundations. You know, you— as you're laying foundations, foundations will be laid upon so that at the end of the day, whatever you're building can be strong, can be anchored, can have meaning and purpose. And so the third one is the authentic you. And the authentic you, we've already touched on aspects of it, there's no doubt about it, but being willing to go on this self-discovery journey. And so in that that there's no need to compare. I mentioned this earlier. So many people compare. Like, if I just had the looks of such and such, if I just had the money of this person, if I just had the power of this person, if I— I call it the if I syndrome. If I, if I, if I. Here's the thing, the if I deal, it causes unhealthy striving. Now we're trying to grasp— it's like this illustration I bring up. When I was in— again, I keep on going back to elementary school, I'll tell you, because the kid in me just continues to come alive. When I was in elementary school, we used to have something called the Physical Fitness Awards. And this was a time where you go through a series of different physical activities. Well, I am 6'4. Now, back then I wasn't 6'4, but I was a lot taller than many of the other kids. I did not— I was very skinny and I did not have a lot of upper body strength. So picture now we're doing a physical test on trying to climb this rope and there's like knots on the rope and you start at the bottom.

I hated those days. As the hefty girl in class, I hated those days.

Torture. Absolutely torture. So for me, I'm seeing some of these kids that like are like machines and they're going all the way to the top, they're coming all the way down. For me, just to make it to the first knot was torture. And, and, and I'm exerting all this energy, all everything that I had just to try to get to the first knot. And by then I was absolutely exhausted if I even made it to the first knot. And so, so for us, I think a lot of comparisons It's like that. When we spend our time trying to become someone who we were never intended to be, never created and designed to be, there's all this unhealthy striving and all this energy and we're channeling all this emotion just trying to work ourselves out so we look like this person, try to earn all this money so we can just say to the next person, we made all this money. See, for me, self-discovery is very different. It's actually being willing to say no to being like everyone else and saying and being committed to going on a discovery journey to understand who you truly are. And so, it's purpose is at the core.

I love that.

And if we truly want to know why we exist on the planet, because that's a question everyone asks subconsciously or consciously all the time throughout their entire life. Leaders, there's no— they're not— they don't escape from that either. And if we truly want to know why we exist, our core purpose personally and how that feeds into the workplace, We've got to understand who we are as an individual. I found that there's 5 key things, 5 practical things that people can— that will help them discover who they are, thus why they're alive. Number 1, understanding their personal core values. Number 2, understanding their top strengths. Number 3, the top passion areas, the things that light them on fire. 4th, their life milestones, the things good, bad, and indifferent that have happened where a stake was put in the ground during that moment, in that time, in that season that have helped shape them to become the person they are today sitting here or standing here? And then lastly, what's their primary gift? See, gifts aren't as much meant for us. They're actually, they've been given to us when we were born in this world that they're to be opened up and given to other people. And it's a legacy we leave behind on the earth that impresses and impacts future generations. So when we can clearly discover, rediscover who we are through those 5 areas, now we're gonna have a much better understanding of why we're actually here and what we put our hands and feet

And we can live in sync with the universe in the flow of— it's like life becomes so much easier. And the work you're talking about really is working towards this higher level of consciousness where we accept who we are and, and how we're here. And I believe when you get there, everything you do becomes far more effortless because you're working in harmony with the universe. Yes. With the natural order of things, you're working with, you know, what you have. And I find, you know, right now, even as we're developing our work, it's so tempting to go out and look at what other people do with their shows instead of organically just coming up with what we would like to give to the world. And when you copy others, you give the universe more of what it already has. True. And when you can really tap into your authentic self, you really plug and play what you were meant to bring to this lifetime. And, you know, I think there's, there's a pretty big plan out there, and all of us need to plug it, plug and play, but we gotta stick to our script. We've got to stick to— That's right. You know, what we need to bring to the table. Well, I, gosh, Rob, I, and I got an early preview of the book, and I loved it. And there's just so many ways that, that we're aligned. And the book is called Lead the Way, correct?

It's called Lead the Way. Yep. Inside-out leadership principles for business owners and leaders.

I love it. I love it. I would highly recommend this book. I am working on starting a revolution where leaders and employees and all of us are really focused on moving ourselves to this higher level of consciousness. And Rob, you've got so many great tips on how to do that, from, you know, redefining your own success to, you know, self- discovery and finding your authentic self and just, you know, helping gain in those, those pieces of awareness. And a lot of times, it's just taking time out to unhook from all of the ego stuff of the world and really unhook and make space for self-reflection. And so I want people to take advantage. This book right now is in presale. And I know a lot of my listeners jumped on my Presale campaign, and we're really excited to be early to get the book. So where do they go for presale right now? They can pre— you all can preorder the book. And where do they go for that, Rob?

Yeah, they can go to leadthewaybook.com. On the homepage of that website, you'll see a preorder red button. Just click on that and it'll take you through. And it's gonna be, for Sy, your audience, 20% off. So I want to encourage people Yeah, if they've been encouraged by listening, feel free to do so.

And, and folks, this is a great gift. I know a lot of you guys gave my book as a gift to other people you were hoping to help them move into no ego places. This would be another great book for your leadership team. A lot of you guys are doing book clubs. Do yourself a favor and make this the next offering on your company book club. You know, Rob Holman, that's going to be robbholman.com, is where you can go to find out a lot more about Rob. Get the book, read the book. Rob, I just love that there are many of us out there working this next phase of leadership. I call it modern leadership, where we're leading people into things like self-reflection and just moving about the world in a different way. making sure they're clear about themselves and their own purpose, and able to really get to a neutral place where they can unplug from some of the, what I would call the false incentives, and really plug into the great work and figure out where they can have impact, which I think is the new flavor of engagement. So I so appreciate you joining me on the podcast. And I know I took some great notes while we were talking, even though I've been exposed to your work, and I trust other people have as well. Any final parting words that you can give our listeners?

Yeah, number one, Sy, thank you for the work that you— the extraordinary work that you do has impacted me, uh, and that it impacts people all over the world. And I've just— it's an honor to be on your show. And, uh, parting word would be, you know, a quote that I live by that I came up with years ago: much of the world either sees the glass half empty or half filled, but I always see it overflowing. There's a place to live out of a place of abundance and perspective that regardless of what the world throws at us, we remain above it. Therefore, we can be a change agent that the world so desperately needs to have. So, thank you so much.

You're welcome. Amen, brother. I love that. Great way to end the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Rob. And for those of you that are listening and loving the No Eagle Podcast, make sure that you are letting other people know. that there's a great resource out there for them to get some fabulous food for thought as they make their commutes and their way around the world. So until later, keep diffusing the drama, ditching the drama, and I look forward to seeing everybody on our next podcast. Thanks, Rob. Thank you so much for joining the episode today. If you're loving this podcast, Just make sure that you check me out on Facebook and Instagram and especially YouTube.