#2 Limiting Beliefs That Hold Women Back: Comparison and Preconceived Notions

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman. Sasha and I are back for another limiting belief. We're doing this series on what women, especially women leaders, tend to believe that get in their own way. And we're not doing this as only prescriptive for all of you in the audience, We're doing this because we started out as meeting, but scared of each other, and we had stories about each other, and it was just a really dangerous, you know, meeting. And we worked through that to become fast friends, and we are here talking about the things, especially we think for women, that we get to thinking that we don't speak about, we don't tell anybody about, but that really sabotage, you know, what's already there for us, which is success and happiness. We don't even have to go manufacture success and happiness. It's our natural state, like, once all this drama's gone.

Yes, yes. And I love that— okay, can I just tell you, like, the first time I met you, I was so intimidated. Like, I was— I had— because I had built this story. This cracks me up. That I, like, you were gonna, like, be psychoanalyzing me and, like, what— how I— what I was wearing and what I was talking about. And it's just so funny now when I think about it. Like, I look back and I think about it.

She looked divine, by the way. I think I showed up in sweats and she came from work looking amazing.

Okay, and you— and that was instantly why I loved you is because 'Cause you were so authentic. Like, you were like, oh, I just got in last night at midnight. I think you were wearing a baseball hat. Like, you were totally real. Yeah, and a ponytail. You were totally real. I was like, oh my gosh. I knew that I was— I already respected her as a businesswoman and as a leader, but then that instantly, like, your vulnerability and how real you were, that made me want to be your friend.

I think that's so interesting, 'cause here's the other side of the story. And women, I want you hearing this, 'cause we're going to talk about relationships and at times how we compete. So I knew of you and this fantastic community for women in medicine that you were forming, and this whole side gig you had going on, and that you're stunningly beautiful and also has, like, cool fashion blog stuff on her site, right? She's the only anesthesiologist I know that shows up with, like, beautiful pink lipstick on. Like, when she takes off her mask, you can see the lipstick lines. But for me, my way of the reverse side of this fear is I know I probably can't compete, so I won't Wow. And so I show up and it's like, that would take just hours to even meet that level of beauty. So what I'll do, which is true, I wasn't lying, I'd gotten in late. Part of me is like, I should get dressed up and look nice. She always looks nice. And so I just went to the, if I can't compete, I won't even play the game. And the game sometimes is rigged. And so as funny as we're talking about these limiting beliefs now, 90% of me showed up in vulnerable authenticity, because I've really tried to work at— as people are out speaking, the guys are now wearing jeans and hoodies, and us girls are still showing up in pumps and dresses, all made up. And there's some unwritten rule. I'm like, I don't want to step on the stage unless I'm like beautiful. And I get mad at all the guys because they're just wearing something comfortable. And I'm like, well, I'm the one who dressed me. Right, exactly. Anyway, when I showed up— but you're warm welcome. And I think we just hit it off so much. But we had to kind of go through what other other people had told each of us about each other. Because it's like when you get together, instead of experiencing just you and I, I think we all are coming together when we meet our colleagues that are female for the first time, with everybody else's story of them. The room's crowded.

Yes, and it's funny because look at how the internet and social media has really— I mean, what do we do when we are like, when someone says, Sy, you should meet this person, what do we do?

Yeah, we go Google them.

We Google, we Insta-stalk them, we like make a story about this person, Based on what we believe them to be, or what other people have told us.

What other people have told us. Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

And how many times have you met a woman that you may have created a story about this woman, and you meet her one-on-one, and you're like, she's nothing like—

Nothing like what they say. Yeah. And how often we're lonely because people have created stories about us that other people believe the story instead of the evidence. Like, we're both in medicine, and we're very evidence-based in our practice, but we're so anecdotally based when we collect information about working together. You know, there was— and I wish I had the study in front of me, but there was a couple who did a workplace study, and they talk about this view that women tend to compete. Like, there's like mean girl, like we're more competitive, we're gonna— we're unkind. Women are unkind to other women, even sometimes more so than men are to women. And their conclusion that came out is that it wasn't necessarily the behavior of the women as much as it was the workplace culture, the culture that fueled that kind of competition. Now shame on us for falling for it, girls. Shame on us for falling for it, because that's another way we get played without our permission, and we got to take control of our life.

Yes, and I think it's really interesting because everyone likes to stereotype women in the workplace as being like the queen bee, the ice queen, oh, you know, and if you question another woman, just from a place of good intention, but maybe you are asking a question, you pose a question, it's the people around the table often that will like— Ooh, fight song.

Catfight, catfight.

Yeah, exactly. And so what it does is it just builds more barriers, and then we kind of fall into this what's called stereotype bias, where we then start acting as the stereotype that everyone believes us to be, right? So it's so easy—

That's the Pygmalion theory too, from way back, like the stereotype bias. You know, kids respond to how teachers see them.

Absolutely, absolutely. And there's been several studies that have shown that if you ask, for example, like tests, like you ask men women taking a test what gender they are before a test, they will actually score worse because— Wow. Like math testing. Yes, like women will score worse.

You reminded me I'm a female, so I take all the stereotypes of girls can't do.

Yes, and it's unbelievable. And I think this also plays into women competing with other women.

I think it does, which is just, you know, us in low self and operating out of fear. And, you know, we are so seeking to stay safe, and I think it is scary that as we come together, I think like Marianne Williamson said, we're not scared of each other, we're scared of the power that would be if we actually collaborated. Like Marianne says, you're not scared of the darkness and the bad stuff, you're scared of like if you actually stepped into your— yeah, your claim on the world, it would blow you away. Like we're more scared of our, you know, power.

And I think it's interesting because you— so you coach a lot of physicians, and you do incredible coaching, not just physicians, but you do this for corporate America, and really all over the world. And so the story in my mind before I met you was, she's gonna find out all of my insecurities. Like, she's gonna figure out Sasha, and she's gonna figure out my insecurities that I need to keep hidden so that she will like me. So it's funny because, like, once you showed up and you were so real and I felt so comfortable around, I wasn't scared. I kind of let my walls down, and I wasn't scared to express, like, you know, actually, Sy, can I ask you some questions about how— what I'm struggling with right now, and can you help me kind of get back to this as you would, as you do in your classes for coaching women physicians. And I primarily coach women physicians, and I can tell you that there is so much isolation, and I think that that is because women see each other as competition. Competition. And they just believe that stereotype bias so much that they then enact it. And oftentimes I have, I'll ask women when they say they're lonely, like name, think of 3 women that you can friend, 3 women that maybe you can strike up a friendship with in your workplace, or in your neighborhood, and they'll always come up with reasons why that woman wouldn't like them. They'll always come up with reasons why, well, she— and it's always based on this litany of, well, she has this success, or she has the perfect marriage, I don't. She has kids, I don't. Well, she's really— So good to see. She's really successful in this, and I'm struggling with this. And I'm thinking, but you don't know what she's struggling with. Like, you don't know that she's going to shut you down. And so, I think that there's so much power when women get together. I mean, you have helped me so much just being my friend, giving me confidence. And right back at you. Giving me confidence to do other things. So I'm just interested, like, how do you, as this, like, woman who owns this business, has all these things going, speaks all over the world, like, how do you battle that inner feeling of, like, oh, maybe I should compete with this other person in the same space?

This is a big topic to unpack because I think it comes down to, and this is really the supplementing belief we want to talk about in this episode, which is whenever we get played by our ego into believing in scarcity. And if you take the word scarcity and you divide it up, it's scare city, like the city that you're scared in, and it's all fear-based. And if its opposite, which is abundance, abundance, if you split it up, it's a bun dance. If you imagine standing up shaking your bum, Right? And I once was given a visual where someone who cared a lot about me, a female, she just said that there are 2 lands, and you can only live in one. And you can live in a scare city where you're afraid, or you can live in abundance where you're dancing and happy. And that there's these bridges. She drew, like, these 2 cliffs, and she's like, and what are your bridges across? And it can be, like— I love that. Ask for help, or admit a vulnerability, or if you're believing a story like, you don't like me. Actually, just go ask people. Go, I have a story, and I just— I made it up that you wouldn't like me because of this. And so that scarcity really is a belief that keeps us playing small and seeing a million opportunities we don't even reach out and act on. And then it's a self-fulfilling belief where I didn't act on it, so see, I was right about— And I have one where I— one of my sons was on a baseball team with some of the most put-together, capable of everything, brilliant women who had chosen to stay home, and they were amazing to the kids on this team. And what I mean by that, like, one, it's like, you know, was like a CEO of this huge conglomerate, and she took a 2-year sabbatical and just was enjoying her kids. And so, like, all the story— so I miss a lot of games because I'm traveling, and— Mm-hmm. And so when I would go to games, I was so embarrassed about not being a good mom because I missed all these games. And so I would go in my baseball hat and I would sit at the top of the bleachers and I would just watch my kids play and then I would leave. And it was my day to bring treats. I, you know, would bring the treats, but like just leave. And so one day I'm sitting behind these women, and to help my story, somebody— Henry was up to bat and they go, has anybody ever met Henry's mom? Hmm. And I'm sitting right behind him in a baseball cap and I'm waiting.

Right, and fulfill the story. They're gonna fulfill the story. Yep, yep.

And I'm waiting, and they're gonna— I was waiting for somebody to be like, yeah, well, what kind of mom doesn't come to her kid's game? And no, I haven't met her, and I doubt you will. She cares more about her job than she cares about her kids. I'm sitting right there, you guys, waiting, and these 2 women, they're like, I would love to meet her. I've heard she's so kind, and Henry's such a good kid, and I bet he has a great— they blew my mind. my story that kept me vulnerable, right, or kept me from being vulnerable. Right. And they were just very kind, and they're like, she spoke at my— our workplace, and people loved her presentation. They said she was hilarious. They only had positive things to say, and then they went on to say things like, I bet it's tough, you know, I have this privilege of being off for a couple of years. I bet it's tough. Like, they would not feed my story one bit. They gave me grace. And I was waiting for some bad offstage behavior. By the end of the year, like, I felt so wrapped in warmth for them, where I had always— like, one time I had Henry take a taxi to practice, because by God, I wasn't gonna ask these women who stayed at home for help, because I'm not gonna admit I can't do it all.

They wanted to judge you, 'cause you thought they were, and you created that in your head.

And they were just like, I drive right by your house, why can't I pick your kid up? But I think we have these stories. You don't even have to have a story specific to the person. It's a story about working versus nonworking moms. It's a story about married versus single. It's a story about— like, we have so many stories that instantly split us out.

Yes, and it's interesting, because I primarily blog and write and do podcasts and speak to professional women. But I can't tell you how many times I receive emails or private messages from stay-at-home moms. And you know what? They're struggling with very similar thought destruction— distortions. We are all human, and we are all struggling. And if— and it's really empowering to me to know that, like, they felt vulnerable, enough to share that with me. Because I often, like you, you know, working, traveling, feel like, man, those soccer moms are probably judging me. Yeah,

because you have 4 kids.

I have 4 kids. I'm running late all the time. You know, I didn't realize it was picture day, and, you know, all these things. And like, how many times actually do they not— they don't have— they don't know the story that I'm creating. It's in my head. They have shown me grace. They want— they're probably struggling with very similar thought distortions about me than I am with them. And don't you think that this is how, we understand this thought distortion about competing and the scarcity, that that actually allows us to maybe make amends with that person that we've created in our mind as our enemy, that woman that we think is like the ice queen. Like, it's probably something that we have created in our mind, and then she has a story that she's created in her mind about us, and that's where the friction is.

That is where the friction— it comes in from story. And I just want to go back, because those women, you know, also said something negative to me thinking I wasn't there, that doesn't fulfill my story about them. Because all of us, every one of us, can operate in high self and low self. I have dished on somebody, and if you ask me, do you really feel that way? Do you really mean it? I would say no. I was stressed. I was— my anger was pointed at somebody else. Yeah. I wanted to feel better by making somebody one down. That was my low self. But if you ask my heart of hearts, I would want the best for that person. So even some of you that are out there, you're like, well, sigh, I actually heard them say— Right, right. Just that grace too. They're in low self. But I think it is our story. And one of the weird things the ego does is the ego loves certainty over accuracy. And a lot of people don't understand this because accuracy includes giving people grace, that people can be both positive and negative, that people can say things they don't mean, that like, that's messy, you know? Yeah. But so the ego, when it doesn't know the whole story, will fill it in just to feel better. It's called gestalt, right? So if I drew 2 legs of a triangle and I didn't fill in the third, and I just put that in front of an audience for an extended period of time, people would either, without realizing it—

Would fill it in.

Yeah, they would fill it in. I would go, what is that? And they'd go, a triangle. But it's not, it's 2 lines, right? Or they would crave filling it in. And so there's this superpower we have that we have to be aware of called co-creation. And so how do we— you asked me kind of how I get past that. This really helped me. So when we're in basic science, and both of us kind of— you're obviously practicing in medicine, I came up that track— there's this thing called the observer effect. Do you remember that? Yes. So we learn in basic science that the observer of an experiment affects the experiment simply by observing.

Absolutely.

So the famous experiment you can YouTube has to do when they're projecting light onto a screen, pretty high-powered light, I think it was laser. And when you're watching it, it forms one pattern, and when they videotaped it and no one was watching it, it formed a slightly different pattern. And so it isolated the effect of the observer. So you're present for your whole life. If this is true in science, you have to acknowledge that you are always affecting the outcome of the experiment just by watching it.

Watching it, yeah.

Right? So So I got a whiff of this, and then as I studied social science, I'm like, wait a minute, we use co-creation as a superpower. Not the kind of co-creation that you want a yacht, you put a picture of the yacht up, and it's not visioning, but it's co-creation, and it works like this, and we can change it and create completely different outcomes. So let's say that Sesh walks by me and doesn't say hello, and we've been like hanging out together, and I'm at Nebraska Med, and she walks by and doesn't say hello. Right. So I am left with, you know, that experience. So if I really think about what I know for sure, okay, she walked by me, and by golly, she did not say hello. Okay, well, wait a minute. If I think of eyewitness reports, they're so inaccurate.

Right. That's really interesting. So

I can loosen it up. I'm like, potential no hello. Now, if we want to get really wacky, quantum physicists would say, you didn't even walk by me, you don't even exist.

Yeah, maybe I didn't even see you.

You don't exist, like, you're just a projection of my molecular emotion. But if we go with just the basics, she walked by me, and there's the obvious one, maybe she didn't see me, or you're worried about a case, maybe you just came out of a case that's really troublesome or something. But what happens is, if I ask myself, what do I know about this for sure, the answer is nothing. And that gets me in beginner's mind, where I can either just notice it, not attach to it, don't suffer, move on, add value, Or I could say, I value connections, so I'm gonna send her a quick text. Saw you in the hallway, hope you're having a good day, love you, girl. Right. But what happens a lot of times is we default to our ego's version, which is always negative. Mm-hmm. Oh, ever since she got tenure, she thinks she's all that and a bag of chips, can't talk to little people anymore. Once I believe your real Here's the co-creation. Once I see you as rude, I treat you rudely, and then you respond rudely.

And then I be— and then I fulfill that. Exactly what you're saying.

I go, see, I'm right. Yep. So one of the things I have to practice is if I feel out of relationship with somebody, is giving them benefit of the doubt, assuming noble intent.

Assuming positive intent.

Yeah, I'm like, gosh, I almost reacted that she walked by me and didn't say hello, but I'm gonna assume positive intent. Maybe she was deep in prayer and meditation for peace in the world and didn't see me. And by assuming positive intent, intent, I can make sure that every interaction we have, we begin on what's real, not the past, like some girl back in college dogged me, and not the future, and not anybody else's story, but I can just begin. And I couple giving benefit of the doubt with, if I think it's so easy, I'll go first. So I'll sit in these meetings and I'll be like, nobody's really said hello to me, or And I'm like, oh, okay, let me be the change I wish to see in the world. Right. And when you treat people differently, so I give you the benefit of the doubt, and I, you know, I'm like, hey, I just love how you get so focused at work, and I admire that about you, and can we just hang for a little bit? I've taken that same experience and grown our relationship rather than diminish our relationship. And I'm going on a long soliloquy about this, so I'll turn it back over to you, but what you need to know out there is there are no neutral actions. in the world. Scientifically, it is impossible for an action to be neutral. It's just, they have, they've not been able to find one yet. So I am either moving closer to you and leaning in, or moving away from you, and it has nothing to do with you.

So I love, there's so many good things that you just went over that was so wise, and so many pearls there to kind of dissect. And as women, you know, we kind of had this feeling, it's really easy for us to feel like everyone is against us. Yes. And kind of be in this low self that you've described. And I want to tell you a little anecdote, like this is a true story. Several years ago, I had this woman that I just never seemed to gel with at work, and she was definitely more quiet, and I'm very extroverted, and I felt like every time I tried to make— now this is coming from my perspective— every time I tried to make conversation with her, she would just kind of shut me down. If we were in meetings, we would often be on opposing— find ourselves on opposing sides. And one day in the morning, she was coming off call, I was coming on call, and we had a really curt exchange. Now, she had been up for 24 hours working. I'm just coming in, and we had a disagreement about an assignment. And after this interaction, I sent a text to who I thought I was sending a text to, another colleague. I sent it to her. And I was really rude. I mean, I didn't call her any names. I don't do that. I didn't swear or anything. But I said, you know, this really angered me. She did this. And I sent it directly to her. And I just like fell apart inside, because I was like, oh my gosh, like she is gonna hate me even more now, you know. Like here, of all the women that I would do that to, it would be this one woman. Yep. And I knew, you know, I thought about it for about 24 hours, and I thought, I knew she wasn't at work then, and I thought, I have to make this right. Like I just have to own it. Like I was operating in a very low Low place. And, you know, here I am, you know, supposed to be this supporter of women and all this, and I just kept like feeding myself this story that she was never gonna forgive me and she was gonna use this against me. And so I just went to her and I just totally apologized, and I said, this was completely unprofessional behavior, and I was in a really low place. I'm not making excuses. I need you to forgive me, and I understand if you can't. And she was She's like, you know, the fact that you would come and apologize to me, like, I just, my whole perception of you just changed, Sasha. And you're not the first person to do this. Like, I'm sure I will do it in the future. She gave me such grace. Oh, wow. And now her and I are very good friends and colleagues. And, you know, I made a mistake. I totally kind of had this story about her. And on top of that, I did something really unprofessional that could have made a sever And it could have gone like you said, like we could have then created this like creation of even more negativity, even more, you know, queen bee competitiveness.

Totally, which could have really hurt your department, your student, your learners. Everybody else around us. I get called in a lot of times for 2 years after a conflict like this happens, where everybody now is acting out this conflict, and it's hard to do what we need to do for our patients.

Yeah, and so I think that, you know, we have to give ourselves grace too when we make mistakes, and we just have to own them. that, and we have to just express that to the other. Now, she could have said, you know, yeah, that's fine, but I, I don't want to be your friend, or I don't, you know, want to— she could have, she could have kept that up, but she didn't. And you know what it, what it has helped me the most is when someone does that, has ever done that to me, you know, when I've caught someone having bad behavior offstage, so to speak, guess what? I've done that. So now I'm very quick to forgive that person and understand. I love that.

Because

I have been at that

So her grace has multiplied out into the world.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, it's the— it's such a contradiction, it's such a paradox that that which will get us loved is to be real and human, and our biggest fear is if we're real and human, we won't be loved. And so part of growing up, women leaders, part of growing up is to be real and human with one another. And, and that's where I think it's like you can't relate and fall in love with the story. You can only fall in love, like, with the true human. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that— and I'm not perfect in that. Oh my gosh, I have also so many stories about bad behavior. But one of the things, as I have gotten more known in the world, that I've made as a personal commitment, and I ask myself to just check me on it, is if I'm not approachable, vulnerable, willing to stand up on that stage and not preach to you and not tell stories, about other people, but to tell my own stories about how I screw up as a wife, how I screw up as a mom. You know, we were talking another segment we wanted to do is kind of like, what's your greatest failure? And my answer was like, only daily as a parent. Every day of my life as a parent is my biggest failure. Like, I mean, talk about a game you can never win. I know. Like, nobody— like, what are the rules and what is the score? Because I like to know like how I get points.

I know.

But I think it's all these things of you being real, but also the ability to own your own stuff and to be vulnerable. Everything Brené Brown talks about— practice forgiveness, like, be good at making amends. Mm-hmm. And if you're acting in a way based on your belief about what other people are or aren't, and you've not asked them if that's true, you're actually, you know, just acting on assumptions.

Yes, and you're also really putting up, you're closing the door for creativity and collaboration.

Let's talk about that, 'cause it's kind of, if you're competing, you're not collaborating.

If you're competing, you are not collaborating, and you may, if you're competing, you're competing with someone, obviously that person has strengths, has success, has positive attributes, right, because you're competing with her. So that's someone that you actually want on your side, you wanna learn from, you wanna collaborate with, you wanna gain creativity from, And if you start thinking about it from that perspective, that you don't actually, you know, have to compete with her, but you actually may gain something from collaborating with her, you will change your mindset and the doors will be opened. It's really interesting.

It's interesting because you get into alignment with the natural flow of things, and so you can tap into what I believe the universe had there for you all along. But the universe won't cooperate in these zero-sum games about if you lose, you win. It's so competitive though, I mean, like everywhere we go, it seems like a natural default is to compete. Like, I mean, as a physician, you were taught like everything was competition.

Yeah, and it's, you have to compete to get just in the door of medical school. So I would say that, you know, the majority of my formative years, that was really drilled into me. Like I was competing with everybody. And then, you know, when you get into medical school, your very score is based on the bell curve. So it's not even—

I've seen them when they post the grades. Oh yeah. And they even place it like your ID number and who's 1 and who's 2.

Yeah, and your whole idea of then getting into a residency or a fellowship or then getting a job is all based on competition. And so it's very ingrained in us is to compete. And then when we also look around and we may be the only woman in the room, you know, it's interesting because that can also kind of feed that competitive spirit. Like, wow, I'm the only woman here. I'm the only woman that's ever won this award. I'm the only woman that they asked to be at this meeting. But it's actually not a healthy thing.

It's not. That just feeds your ego.

It does.

But it's almost like our fear of not being enough, we finally get to be enough, and it's also external, so it's false. So our fear was false because it came from external. Our gain is false, it came from external. And we just, we all stay, we stay lonely.

So I love that we've kind of summarized, I mean, in a summary kind of, we've talked about how that scarcity really can feed competition amongst women. And we have to break down and think about, Okay, like you said, is our story real? Have we ever asked them? Yeah, exactly. Is this story real? Thinking about that co-creation and what are we really—

What's my part in it?

Yes, what's my part in it? Owning your own mistakes and your own failure.

Being vulnerable.

Being vulnerable. All of those things can kind of break down that wall of competition.

And I actually think it's as simple as when you're thinking that the world is limited and there's only room for one, or just ask yourself, is that true? Because it's just, it's a false belief. You know, fear, F-E-A-R, is false, you know, events appearing real. Yeah. And I think that if you're in a place of fear, it's gonna burn a lot of energy and really take away from what's going on. And the world just isn't scarce. There's plenty for all of us. The only way we can get through this is if we come together and play on each other's strengths. strengths. And there's just really no downside, especially in today's world of influencers and brands. Like, social media has already figured out collaboration is better than competition. Yes. But, you know, it's interesting. So look in your life, listeners, where you have fallen into a scarcity mindset or a belief that if somebody else has it, you can't also have it, like that they already Like somebody once said, you know, I wanted to write a book, but I think Glennon Doyle talked about this, I'm not sure, somebody on social media. I already wrote a book, or I wanted to write a book, but somebody else already wrote it on that topic. And it's like, well, but they haven't written your book, right? Right. So, so yeah, good summary. Look in your life, folks, for where things are scarce and you're causing yourself kind of your own pain and your own loneliness. Question that thinking, and then you go If you want— if you appreciate what some other leader has, name it, say it, and invite collaboration.

Absolutely.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman.