#30: How to Start with Sarah Morgan

Hi, I'm Saia Wakeman, and you're listening to No Ego, a podcast where we teach you how to ditch the drama, end entitlement, and drive big results in your workplace and your world place. Listeners, I am super excited to have a friend and fellow HR colleague and blogger on today, Ms. Sarah Morgan. Hi, Sarah.

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

Absolutely. And Sarah will tell you a bit about herself. She's an actual HR practitioner with a million great HR stories from over her many years in practice. But where you need to find her is she is Buzz on HR. And that is her LinkedIn and all of her blogs. And she's been blogging since Way before we even knew about blogs. So, Sarah, welcome. I was trying to remember how we met, and you reminded me that we met at the Chicago SHRM.

Yes, Illinois SHRM, 2011 or 2012, which I can't even believe it's been that long. But yeah, and then we ended up stranded at the airport in a hailstorm and trapped at— and got trapped at a bar, and the rest is history.

So the rest is history. So we bonded, we bonded at that conference because Illinois SHRM, I I've just got to shout out John Jorgensen and the HR czar, Dave. What's Dave's last name?

Dave Ryan.

There's so many great people, but they— Illinois puts on a great SHRM conference, and they really— they were the first ever to put me on stage. John Jorgensen took a chance on Cy Wakeman, and yeah, he was the first to ever put me on a SHRM stage with my crazy message.

That's awesome. He was an early adopter. He got, he got in early. He saw something which, which, and I am grateful because I'll tell you, when I went to that particular SHRM conference, I was not supposed to be there for your session and something happened. My flight got pushed back. And so I was like, well, I'll stay, you know, for the closing keynote. It's cool. And then, oh my gosh, it, and like I said, the rest is history. And then we ended up at the airport together. So it was—

And we've gotten stranded many, like 3 times.

We've done that at the airport. It's, it's not a good conference if I'm not stranded at the airport with Sai at the end.

I've missed you. The last couple times I've been stranded, I've missed you. We've had great conversations on reality-based leadership, which I think was in your blood. That's how you practice HR long before I got a hold of you. But, but also about blended families and all the adjustments we make there. And so I consider ourselves Good friends and colleagues. So tell the audience a little bit. I know you've got a great pedigree in your HR practice, but also in your, your blog. So what can you tell our listeners so they can get to know you a little bit better?

Yeah, I've been practicing human resources for 20 years now. I started out in staffing and day labor 20 years ago in light industrial production logistics positions, and then moved into more of the retail and quick-service restaurants, fast food HR, and now working for a security company as a senior director. And about 7 years ago, I started my blog, The Buzz on HR. And that's the— thebuzzonhr.com is the easiest place for people to find and connect with me on my content and all the links to everywhere else. That I am can be found from there. And that—

If you started out in manufacturing, anybody I know who starts HR in manufacturing has punched their dance card.

Yeah. You know, 24/7 drama, just 24/7 people drama. It is a fantastic breeding ground for me. It's everything that I learned and everything I've done since then. I can always connect back to those lessons.

And that's what I love about you is that you don't just write or talk or think about this. You practice this every day. And I know as you came into your new position— well, it's not that new. You've been— where have you been? You've been there about 4 years now. When you came in, that wasn't a ready-made handoff. Here is a highly engaged HR team who feels loved. They weren't feeling the love when you got there.

No, they wanted no parts of me when I first got here at all. They really were not feeling the of and certainly not feeling the reality. And so I came in after— I think I was the 3rd or 4th director in 3 or 4 years. And that's generally really indicative of culture challenges within an organization.

And— Usually that's what keeps someone from taking the job. But you rushed in.

I didn't. I was the crazy one who was like, all right, then this is— then they need me. You know, this is what I need to be because they— I got to bring some stability to this.

And I love this because I want our listeners to talk. I mean, you're hearing listeners from a real-life person who's done turnarounds. Everybody asks me, Cy, like, how do you start from, you know, a group that has been disenfranchised and they've had multiple leaders and things aren't going well? And, and, you know, how do you do that?

I spent probably the first month to 6 weeks that I was here, just letting people do what they did naturally and not really trying to make a lot of waves, just trying to get a good lay of the land, understand how things were set up and who the people were. And once I felt like I had a good grasp on that, then I had to take a minute and reflect. The timing of it worked out well because it was— I started the job in the summer. And so right when I reached that point where I'm like, okay, what do I want to do with all of this? It was time for me to go on vacation. So I take this week at the beach and now, you know, and I'm writing out my plan of what I want to do when I get back. And, um, the one of the first things that I did with them was the, the assessment from Your Rules of the Workplace book and started talking to them about the employee value proposition, started talk— getting them to, to cultivate some sense of self-awareness and understand where they were at. Mm-hmm. And how they were contributing through their own attitudes and misplaced beliefs of how they were contributing to some of their own difficulties.

I love that because a leader, you know, once you can help people through self-reflection realize that they're the cause of their own suffering, that's powerful. It's not telling people. The power of a leader isn't what you tell people is wrong with them. It's what you get them thinking about. And so how, what was the original response to that work in, in the Employee Value Equation assessment? Some

of it was, was difficult because everybody's not ready for that level of self-awareness. And that's very telling in and of itself. Nobody wants to hear that I'm the cause of my own suffering when you've told yourself the narrative that's convinced yourself that it's all somebody else's problem. So when you bring it to the table and say, no, this is you, and that if you just make some adjustments within yourself, you can be so much more successful at what it is that you're trying to accomplish, not everybody is ready for it. And it was difficult to break people out of their stories. And one of my favorite phrases, even before I got baptized in reality-based leadership, was, I need history without histrionics. I need you to tell me what happened without adding all of the extra into it. Because— and I do an exercise with my team where I will have them Just tell me a story, and I will just write down the relevant factual things. And you will end up— they will talk for 5 minutes, and you'll end up with 4 sentences because all that they've given you is the extra. It was a dark and stormy night, and the wind was howling like the banshees. And I'm writing, and I just wrote down, it's raining. You know, it's a Tuesday, and it's raining. That's all I got. And because that's all—

I love that because we talk about— Editing the story. I love that. It's raining and it's Tuesday.

Yeah, it's raining and it's Tuesday. That's what I got from that. And everyone is so upset because you have not bought into the narrative of it. But, but what, what moves us and what keeps us going forward is the essential facts. It's a good thing from a productivity standpoint to remove all the extra-ness. And it's a, it's a great thing from a human resources standpoint and from a perspective of where you want to add value in in your organization to take that perspective. So that was big on me, big for me. I worked with the leaders on my team because my group, I managed the entire human resources function, which is comprised of 5 different areas. And so I took the 5 leaders of those areas, we sat down and we put together what we wanted to be the rules for our team, for ourselves. And that was really important to me because I needed them. I didn't want to come in and say, these are going to be the rules. this is how we're going to do things. I wanted them to talk about what they were seeing and what they were experiencing, and let's decide how it is that we want to operate, and let's hold each other accountable to those rules. And they're still the same, you know, rules to this day. And we've got some reality-based themes working in there, in particular focusing on collaboration, talking about what feedback is, talking about operating, you know, from an abundance mentality and managing the reputation of the team just as much as we manage the functions. Because at the end of the day, HR has to be seen as a business partner. And when we get rigid and controlling and stuck in our stories, we can't serve and we can't help. And so we had to put that in our ground rules for our team about how we work together and then how we work across the aisle with other departments. Because one of the things our CFO has always told us is our competition is outside these 4 walls. So what goes on inside these 4 walls should always be collaborative. We should always be assuming the positive intent. We should always be believing that if we work together, we can find a solution. that will serve both of us. Is everybody going to be deliciously happy with the outcome? Probably not. You're going to have to give a little. I'm going to have to give a little, but we're going to get there in a way that's going to add value and serve the people of the organization. And that, at the end of the day, is what really matters.

I love some of these. You throw down some one-liners that I just love. The history without the histrionics. And what you just said, I love too. I want to highlight for our listeners when you said, you know, we're not just managing the function, we're managing the reputation of our area. And that really gets into, you know, all of these, you know, great things about how we work and consult. And so a great first step is sitting with your direct reports and not talking about what hasn't worked and how they're victims and why they can't, but really sitting down and creating who do we want to be, what do we want to create, and really focus that energy away from what's happened and what's gone wrong to we're here today, we have the power. We're the only ones. You know, what do we want to create? I think it's such good use of people's time. And then setting down those non-negotiables. If you want to be part of this, this is what, you know, what you're signing up for.

Yeah, it's about— and one of the things I say to my team then, and I still say to them now, the only thing that I ask of you is that you bring your willing, mature, professional self to work every single day. If you can do that, We will add a little coffee on you and figure out the rest.

Yeah. It's like you bring your highest self to work, use good mental processes, come having made a choice. That's just such a kind, nice way of saying, here's all you need to do.

Yeah. Yeah. And it has worked for me. And over time, we've had some turnover on the team. Not a big shocker because everybody is not willing to operate this way. Um, and so, you know, we've seen some people go, many at their own choice and some, you know, at mine. Um, but over time, you know, I, I say I got a squad now. You know, we, we roll and we ride hard for each other and with each other. And we have, in the 4 years that I've been here, we've done 4 acquisitions, 2 mergers, a software integration. a software migration, um, and hundreds and all the other hundreds of thousands, countless things. I mean, I manage payroll and benefits, our full compliance and licensing department, employee relations, and our talent and recruiting group. So we're doing all of these additional projects and we're still doing our jobs every day. And it's—

I love it.

It takes so much openness.

And you're not just looking—

Yeah, it takes so much openness and willingness from, from my team to be able to do that. But they are just a great Great diverse group of minds, young and old and every color under the rainbow and men and women. And we come together and we get it done. And it's just amazing. And I'm excited coming to work every day and getting to lead this team.

Love it. And I love the language because a lot of us talk about teamwork and we're all, you know, that's old stuff. But when you start to put language like, I need a squad, I need, you know, I need to know that we're going to ride hard together and have each other's backs. And that's That just— it brings it to life. I know that because you and I have talked about that, this whole work with the willing thing, you have just made an art of this because, you know, for you it's game over if you're not willing. People hear me say, you know, when I'm accused of playing favorites and people say, Sai, you play favorites, I say, yes, I do.

Yes.

Talk a little bit about the willingness piece you've put into place because some people can really misuse this whole portion of my work. But you've done it so well.

It has to come from a place of sincerity and a place of authenticity and not coming from a place of control. Willingness is not a hammer, it's a glove. And you've got to wield it in a different kind of way. I just— I want your buy-in. I don't always know how it's all going to work out. You know, we might set a goal for this quarter that may linger into the next one. But I want you to trust me and be willing to roll with me, you know, through the punches of this particular project. And I just think that asking people to give you their willingness and not use it against them is so important if you're going to be a sincere, authentic person. Anything else, if you are demanding willingness, you're doing it wrong because there's no empowerment. When you ask someone to bring their willing self to the table and they do, then you've got to give that— you've got to give the empowerment back to them. You've got to say, okay, now you've brought yourself, here's what it is that I need you to do, and, and go forth and let them be creative. And it is amazing to see how people will rise in that moment to allow themselves to just Yes. Be creative and accomplish the things that you want to in a way that helps their growth and their learning and development. They look good, you look good, the team looks good, the organization is moving forward, everyone is winning. And it does not have to be this back and forth competition where we can't all celebrate and we can't all win together. I don't believe in that. I don't operate that way, and I don't allow the people around me to operate that way.

And I think it's so important because some people, when they first interact with Reality-Based Leadership, they see my call for setting non-negotiables and for only working with the willing as like setting up this dictatorship. Like, you know, you better agree with me or you're unwilling. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for you to step up and give the gift of your willingness and your reasonableness and bring your best self to the table and together use your expertise And my expertise to build something great and, and to have each other's backs. People who are unwilling are always focused on why it wouldn't work, and they want me to have their opinions. They're like, do you want my opinion? Because I want to share with you why it won't work. And for me, they're not a credible witness if they aren't willing. Like, if you aren't able to get vulnerable and get willing and say, you know what, I'm— I'll join in full well knowing that we're gonna run into our share of obstacles. Yep.

Negative brainstorming for me has really helped with that, um, that when we know that we're up against a particularly challenging thing, we whip the negative brainstorming, um, out right away and start talking about, all right, what— where are the cracks and the holes? What can possibly go wrong? And how do we start to troubleshoot against that so that when it comes, because it inevitably does, we are already ready? And we've already anticipated that this is coming. Sometimes we have a plan for it. Sometimes it curves in a way that we didn't anticipate, and we got to pause for a moment and regroup. But it's silly for us to come to work and think that everything is going to be perfect, that nothing— in particular in human resources where you're dealing with people.

Yeah.

And people are going to come to you with, with any and everything, and your day is going to take very sharp Turns left and right. And the next thing you know, you're mad and you're frustrated as though you couldn't have anticipated, you know, that these things were going to happen. And I have just myself learned not to allow myself to get too emotionally invested in those turns, to just, you know, you sometimes you just got to yell plot twist and move on.

I love that. Plot twist.

We've gotten very, very good at doing that, um, over the course of time. Um, we are actually in the process of, of, um, doing another acquisition right now. Um, every day something new is thrown at me, and someone will call and say, this just happened, I'm not sure what to do. Hey, start here and, uh, let, let me know what happens. But I'm not, you know, I don't feel the need to, to be involved in every meeting and, or anything like that. because I know that my team is bulletproof and ready and that they're going to keep me informed and we're going to do our very best to make things go as smooth as possible.

And I love about this whole piece on willingness because willingness might be the biggest ego bypass, right? Because if I come in with conditions and I'll do it as long as nothing changes and they don't throw anything at us and everybody else has to do the same thing, that's our ego really and unwillingness. But willingness is the first ego bypass to say, all in. I know there'll be plot twists, and we're just not going to spend a lot of energy there. And using the tools are, are so, um, important because the work with the willing means that you have sorted the deck to get resistance out of the picture so that you have all reasonable, accountable, professional minds focused on the solution. Now, um, because of time, I could talk to you all day because I think you are such You're such a great practitioner of reality-based leadership. But speaking of the amazing things you do with your team as far as self-reflection, and you know the power in that, I want to talk about one of your side hustles. You have taken your blog to a whole new level these past, I guess, the past month or so. It's always been great. Yeah. But I want you to indulge me on some of the work you're doing on your blog. So if you've loved what Sarah said so far, check out her blog because she writes about these concepts and how she leads her team so well. But tell me about your latest project.

So I've been writing at The Buzz on HR for 7 years and primarily focused on human resources, leadership, management. What happened to me probably a year, a year and a half ago is with, with the state of our world between the election and police brutality, and what's now become, you know, Me Too and Time's Up. And I'm seeing all of these things back then and not knowing how to give voice to that in my writing. And I stopped writing for probably a solid 6 months because I would sit down to write and I just felt stuck because I didn't feel like there was a place in my blog for me to say these things. And I started looking for blog challenges that would allow me some room to do that. that, didn't find it, decided to create my own. And that's where the Black Blogs Matter Challenge was born. Um, it's, it's turned into almost a hashtag movement. I love it. Surrounding conversation about diversity and inclusion and intersectionality in our workplaces. Uh, I— it started in 2017 with a 28-day challenge that I did through through Black History Month that talked about everything from hair to microaggression and all points in between. And I thought I was done with it. And then as 2017 started to wrap up, probably October, November timeframe, people were like, all right, what you got? What you doing this year? And I was like, oh, I don't know. And so I said, well, I don't want— I want I want diversity and inclusion and those things to be stuff that we, particularly in the HR space, become more comfortable talking about on a regular basis. But there's a lot of misunderstanding and confusion surrounding what all these things mean and how do I do this in a practical and meaningful way. And so I expanded the challenge to last 16 weeks, and we're about halfway through. We started at the end of January. and will carry through about to the beginning of May. So we're a little more than halfway through now. Week 9, I think, is where we're at. And again, we're talking about those same topics, privilege fragility and pay inequity and intersectionality and, you know, all of those things that are really hot-button issues and just how to do it in a way that is practical, how to resolve yourself. in, in that work and balance the awareness that you need with the practicality that, that has to come with it. Um, it's, it's, it, it was not a space that I wanted to get into. I don't consider myself to be a diversity and inclusion expert. Um, you know, I just say I'm not an expert, I just read a lot. Yeah. Um, but it has It has opened my eyes to so many things and become its own call to action for me in a lot of ways to become more active, not just in my writing, but also in the causes I support and the things that I do beyond, you know, what I already have going on with life and work. So it's been completely game-changing for me as far as that goes. Yeah.

Well, it's, it's been game-changing for me too. And, um, which is why I'm so excited for our listeners. You guys, I just want you to, to tune in to this whole Black Blogs Matter. For me, and I just, I haven't told you this before, but you were just such a credible voice to me and just such a, a practical, um, you know, just balanced perspective on all that is HR. When we'd sit down and talk about HR, I just loved your practicality and it was just simple. And you're like, sigh, you know, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. They, you know, they don't, you say, wake up and drive 40 miles to come in and make trouble.

No, they do not. No, they do not.

So as someone who is, obviously people know I'm not Black, but I grew up in a town of 1,000 people in Iowa. And as I look at the ego and the biases we have, I started learning about all the, you know, unconscious biases and the implicit biases. And, and that started to wake me up a little bit. But what I want to say, Sarah, I'm so in gratitude to you because your blogs have actually been this really safe place for me to go to learn and just consume and get my mind blown. And, you know, because I learned early on in the last couple of years, I think, you know, I'm one of those guilty of thinking things were— we were better than we were. And I'm grateful for some of the stuff going on right now in the world because, boy, it's really helped me learn. But I learned early on this predicament where I can't expect someone who has been part of an oppressed group to take responsibility to educate me. That's just not fair, right?

Correct.

For me to say, well, you know, I don't understand and you guys got to bring me up to speed. And so I don't I didn't expect that. And at the same time, really needed some safe places to go for me to just learn. And reading your blogs and the blogs you've introduced me to, you know, are just part of my own awakening. And, you know, every day I realize a whole nother thing I was blind to. And one of the important things I learned, I don't know if it was from one of your blogs or the ones you introduced me to, is the power of passing the microphone to the experts. And so that's part of why I just, I want you, my listeners connecting into you and the other people you're writing connected with so that the microphone's in you guys' hands and that we are seriously spreading and sharing these blogs. So I just, I thank you. It's helping me.

I like that because, and centering voices of groups of people who are generally marginalized in this movement and in this moment is so important. And because you've got to let people speak in their own voice about their experience, about what they need and what they see and what they feel. And we are so afraid of hearing that, and what— mostly because of what that does to us. So I think about that in the context of what you say, you know, about the ego. And this is one of the most important times for us to put our egos aside, our privileged fragilities aside, and allow voice to people who are not normally allowed to speak publicly and loudly about what their experiences are and listen. and act on the things that they're asking us to do to help and to make this better. Everyone keeps talking about how broken our systems are. Our systems are not broken. Our systems are working exactly the way that they're designed to work. Systems don't just break. We all know that. Yeah, so true. They're not broken. They have to be dismantled. And then

I was gonna say, they weren't good in the first place.

No, no, but they, they're, you know, they were bad systems. It's, it's no different than when you have a software system and you have to migrate to something— a completely different platform in order to get the functionalities that you want. The systems— many of the systems that we've built in this country operate that same way, and they are operating in a way to keep oppressed people, whether that is Black people, brown people, women, homosexuals, whatever they are, it is working to keep them oppressed. And it works just fine. All systems have glitches. There are definitely always going to be people who make it through a crack in the system and rise to the top, but that's— it does not allow equal playing field. And we got to be honest about that and willing to be vulnerable and do the hard work that it takes to make those changes. And I hope that the writing that I'm doing and that the writing that the other people within Black Lives Matter Challenge are doing is helping to open the door for those conversations, get people thinking, get people talking, and start to make change. For me, it is primarily cathartic and just a very ambitious undertaking because I don't know that it— that this would have come out of me any other way. And so I'm grateful for it and anxious to just follow it and see where it leads me and my profession and those around me who have supported me in this journey and in this change that we're trying to make. Thank you.

I'm loving it. And my assignment to listeners is I want you guys to tune in and read these blogs and notice how often your ego gets punched in the face. Because as I'm reading it, like, there are times I'm like, but, but— and I want to jump in. And here's my assignment to my listeners is shut up and just read. And that's why, you know, Sarah, you may not know I'm out there in the background consuming this stuff because I rarely comment because it It is so tempting for me to comment. And then I'm just like, it's not even my conversation. I need to shut up and read and learn and hear from people's— what their walk in life has been. And as a responsible leader and HR professional, I need to be getting as fluent as I can. I'm never going to be able to be, I don't believe, fluent. I'm going to be hopefully every day better. At that beginner's mind, which is no ego, which is being pretty sure I don't know crap, being pretty sure that I'm in an I don't know mind so that I can, you know, just listen to these points of others. And I guess that's what I've noticed, you know, besides learning so many things about, you know, my own privilege and my own experiences and my limited view of the world. Mm-hmm. I watch sometimes as people comment, and my only comment to them in your comments would be like, please just listen. Just be quiet. Oh. Shut up and listen. Because when people are reacting so quickly, I think you're just challenging all those things that keep our ego safe. Like, I have to believe that about the world, because if I'm wrong, then everything, you know, falls. And people are operating out of a lot of fear. But that's just my 2 cents. That's why I remain pretty quiet. And why I wanted you to make sure and highlight that really important work going on. What can I do? I mean, you know me, you know that I didn't come with all the privilege in the world, but I came with a lot of privilege. And I'm just understanding my own multi-intersections in life. But what's your best advice for me and other people that have some similar backgrounds to me?

The first thing I would say is, is diversify your your sphere of influence. Make friends with people who are not like you, who don't come from your background, and then find resources. We have these nifty little devices in our hands all the time that is just full of access to information that can teach us about these things. Read voices that are different from your own. Consume content, whether that's music, whether that's whether that's television, YouTube, whatever it is, not just pure entertainment, not just reality TV crap, but real content that are written by brilliant minds who just are people who don't look like you and challenge your assumptions very often. When you find your ego, or as I like to call it, Fragility, your privileged fragility, that moment in you where something— where you've been triggered because it's not me, that doesn't describe me, or I'm really uncomfortable with this topic, and so I want to go back to this equilibrium where I feel comfortable again. Force yourself more often and for longer periods of time to sit in that and know that when you're sitting in that, there are Women, people of color, transgender people, homosexual people who walk that way all day, every single day. Like, those few moments of discomfort in your privilege that you have is someone's life, and appreciate that. And then the last thing— last 2 things I would say: find yourself an activity to get involved in, whether it's a cause to support, you know, the marches and those sorts of things. Bring yourself physically, you know, to that. And the most important thing is vote. Vote in your local elections. Vote certainly, you know, with Congress and president. But I can't overemphasize the importance of educating yourself about your local officials, voting and supporting there, because so much of the change that's going to come about is going to start grassroots. And so knowing your mayor and your— the people who sit on your town council, your county officials, is just as important as knowing who the president is. Knowing who your local judges are is just as important as knowing who's on the Supreme Court. So all of those things, you know, come together, I think, to round out the advice that I can give to Anyone, and the advice I try to follow myself and model in the work it is that I'm doing. I'm still awakening. This, again, has rattled something in me that's different than what I felt before, and I'm still researching and finding my space and finding my voice in the midst of all of this. But that's the advice I give myself, and that's the advice that I give to others, particularly when you're— when you are privileged and you are coming from a perspective where you haven't been immediately readily exposed to stuff, it starts with diversifying your perspectives and being willing to be uncomfortable for longer and longer periods of time in order to learn.

I love it. Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and, and just really being able to sit in that place where You find out you don't know and you can't know, and you can at least work to understand. I think it's just beautiful advice. And what I love about most of what I have read is it's not prescriptive, it is informative. It's just good stuff. And I thank you for that. I hope that we all continue to wake up. Thank you. And I think it's a journey. I don't know if you ever get there, but I'm committed to every day trying to pay attention to some new things. And I love your advice. I'm lucky to have my boys keep me introduced to a lot of things I probably wouldn't find on my own.

Yeah, I'll find things for you.

And so whether it's age or whether it's ethnic backgrounds or whether it's just different belief systems, systems, or whether it's different life preferences. Just really get out there and expand your comfort zone, whether it's internationally, but use your Instagram, your Facebook. I guess I'll leave my listeners with this. Be a curator of your own collection and of what's your own learning material. And as a good curator, really go out for finding unique and different and you know, lots of diversity in what you're curating in your information channel. So, Sarah, we are out of time. I hate that the only time I've connected with you in the last year or so is through a podcast, but it's been fabulous having you on.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you to your listeners for hanging in there with us. And, and again, I hope to connect with all of you through my, through my writings at The Buzz on HR. And I will see you on the Twitterverse and all those other places. And, Sy, you and I will hook up at a conference.

Thank you. And everybody tune in. Sarah, thank you, and I wish you the best, and we'll be talking soon.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining the episode today. If you're loving this podcast, just make sure that you check me out on Facebook and Instagram and especially YouTube.