#41: Debunking Accountability with Linda Galindo

Hi, I'm Sy Wakeman, and you're listening to No Ego, a podcast where we teach you how to ditch the drama, end entitlement, and drive big results in your workplace and your world place. Good afternoon, listeners. You are in for a treat on this episode of the No Ego Podcast. I have with me Linda Galindo, and she is an absolute expert, a guru on accountability, one of my favorite topics. Welcome, Linda. Well, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to this. It's going to be super good information for our listeners. Linda and I have connected over LinkedIn. I've watched your work, Linda, for years. I've loved the work you've done on accountability. You're one of my first favorites and still long-term favorites. But we actually just met in person here in the Bay Area yesterday. We went for an incredible sail. We were sailing all day at the Half Moon Bay Yacht Club. And I got to tell you, it was just a wonderful way to get to know you in person. Thank you.

I would like to repeat that with anybody who has an opportunity to just sit and get to know each other. Wasn't that amazing that we were learning and sailing and getting to know each other all at the same time?

It was amazing. It was, you know, a lot of people say that boys really connect by doing things together and girls are more connected more by like chatting. And that's just some research people did way back when. I think I disagree with that. I think that everybody Um, could really connect by having a shared goal, which was a great day sailing. I was definitely a novice, but you were such a great coach, and we had a great time. But I learned a ton. I was telling my husband last night just about all my knowledge of the jib and, and the tacking and all the things I walked away with. You were such a great coach. And I think what made you such a great coach is that you weren't— Um, So into telling me how to do things. You really were clear on what the goal was and what you needed from me. And then just really gave me some time to experiment with it and really just practice, experience it, self-reflect, so to speak. I thought it was the perfect analogy for how you could coach somebody in the workplace. You did such a great job. Was that intentional on your part?

I've only been sailing for less than 2 years, so I had just learned myself. And so I get that feedback all the time when I take someone out that doesn't know much, that they were comfortable, they learned a lot, I was a great coach. They ascribed this thankfulness to me for, you know, all they learned and they— that they weren't afraid. And I think it's because I remember what it was like not to know. And that I have transferred that over to even my work where I've been teaching accountability for 20-plus years. And I think it's this lesson of always starting from where people are. And I've seen it go very, very wrong in that coaching part of teaching and in sailing in particular, when people are just telling and directing, but they're not coming from where the person is. It's like I could say, grab the jib line or pull that in. And if you don't stop for just one second first and say, so where is this person starting from? Then the communication doesn't work. The coaching communication doesn't work. So, it's been extraordinary practice. And yes, it was very intentional because the way I was treated where it didn't work and I wasn't learning, I decided to suspend and Pay attention to where I was learning and how those people were interacting with me and coaching me and what I responded to.

I think it's so important because if somebody's willing, and I definitely was willing, um, really having that empathy to go where they're at and not confuse a novice state with unwillingness or lack of accountability. And, and I think for my listeners, we talk a lot about only working with the willing. And yeah, somebody's got to be willing, but once they are willing, how can you adapt and really go to where they are and, and start from there? And I think it really requires you to take some time to really listen in and, um, and also be clear on what you want, and then listen into where they are and really mind that gap. And most people aren't clear for what they want to do or create Or what needs to happen. They don't get clear themselves and then definitely do more telling or micromanaging than coaching. So you do this intentionally. You've had just a wealth of experience, knowledge, research into accountability. I would love to just pick your brain since you were one of the first people who taught me about accountability way back when. What can you share with listeners about accountability? A lot of people just— don't even understand how to define it, really. They aren't clear on what it means and what it doesn't mean. What would you tell our listeners?

That we are afraid of it, and that is understandable because we get so many images of accountability in the fear state. And that what I would tell all of us to be mindful of is that it is a mindset, not a set of behaviors that is scary or to be feared if it's going to be applied to you. So I spend my time shifting people's understanding of accountability to something powerful and transformational by making it personal. So I work in the realm of personal accountability defined as— and this is, this is a very rich concept, so I've boiled it down to defining it as upfront ownership for your results, good or bad, Without fault, blame, or guilt. So think about this: if I started my day, a task, my job, getting to the supermarket with upfront ownership for results, good or bad, without fault, blame, or guilt, then I go into what I am doing with my time, energy, resources, talent, skill with ownership, knowing I'm going to answer for whatever result I get. And I don't have to have a story about what happened and who was at fault and who was wrong and why I was bad or wrong because something didn't go well. So, this just changes everything if people are willing to consider putting accountability first instead of last.

I love it because after the fact, it's who to blame. And I love the upfront part of it. It's my commitment. Buy-ins, a verb. I'm choosing to go all in. And then, as we account for at the end of the day, as you said, you know, I kind of have a healthy sense of guilt or pride about how things go. It's all mine and I can learn from it and be better tomorrow if there's something I need to improve on. The upfront piece is really powerful.

So, a lot of times I get this call, you know, I want them to be more accountable or I want to know how to hold them accountable. It's all it's it's all out there, and so in this idea of changing where you put accountability, thinking about it a little bit differently, you can start and end your day with accountability, ownership for results up front, good or bad. But you can also bring things to you without the fault, blame, and guilt by just simply saying, "Well, did I get what I wanted there?" Oh, I didn't get what I wanted. Accountability solves. Not getting what you want by teaching yourself to go right to, well, what did I do on the way to trying to get what I wanted? What did I learn if I didn't get what I wanted? What do I need to do differently? And, and how am I accountable going forward to get that going into it? And if, if I can discipline myself each time I'm getting a result I say I don't want, or I'm not getting the result I do want, I can ask myself, what did I do? What did I learn? What do I need to do differently? How am I accountable? And I will tell you, CEOs think that's for other people. Yeah. But I am talking to CEOs and they are receptive to seeing they're the problem because they are not running through that exact set of questions I just said to you.

I love it because most people are looking at how do other people need to change in order for me to get what I want, and then they make a list of what other people need to do differently. And it just really brings that back. Did I get what I want? And if so, why not? And what's my part in that? And what can I do differently? The ultimate freedom is understanding your part in not getting what you need and then figuring out what you could do differently in the future rather than being dependent on everybody else. But it is such a natural response. I have people I've had people sit in my classes on accountability the whole while wishing their colleague was there. They'll even ask me, is my boss going to get this class? And I'm like, the class is called personal accountability. But I think it's so fear-based. People are certain that they need other people to do things differently. And they don't really realize the power they have in that dance. If I change, everything changes. And I usually can't make somebody do something, but I can stop enabling them, or I can change my approach, or I can get more clear, or I can get more intentional, or I can stop giving mixed messages. Or there's just such a host of things I can stop doing or start doing.

Yeah. And there, if everybody was deciding, you know, okay, I'm willing to consider I need to be more accountable, and I hear you inside talking about it, and Okay, let's get practical right now. How do I be more accountable? So, well, first it's, well, what are you going to get out of it? I will tell you, being more accountable, you're going to get less stress. You're going to get productivity and you're going to get personal job satisfaction. Those 3 things are an absolute. But here's the trade-off. Here's the top 3 things I'd say, go out and do this right now and you will be that person. Number 1, talk to, not about other people. So, if you're in a workplace and you're part of a team or you're the boss, doesn't matter where you are, your commitment of personal accountability is to talk to people, not about them. Now, the positive fabulous stuff, go right ahead. But the stuff that you know is undermining and I think my girls use the term throw shade on others.

Yeah.

You don't do that. You talk to, not about. That takes being brave. But you can do that and you are more than capable. The second is don't participate in meetings after the meeting. The counterproductive ones where you speak up after the meeting or ask that question, do you think what they meant was? You have to raise your own hand. And if you're the only one asking, yes, you're vulnerable. It could put you at risk to be the only person who doesn't know. But to have the meeting after the meeting to take it sideways because you were not brave. And then that person says, oh, I'm so glad you asked. Well, why didn't you ask yourself? I'm not going to be that person anymore. You're capable. I believe in you. I'll support you. Ask your own questions. Don't rely on me. And the third thing that we do to make sure that we're that accountable person is that we Absolutely certain that we don't rescue, fix, and save underperformers. So, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and then the boss comes to you and says, hey, could you take care of this? John didn't get it done. It's like, why am I doing John's job?

Yeah.

Hold John accountable because if you rescue, fix, and save underperformance, the best people are getting rewarded with the work of the underperformers and they're going to leave. It's a huge retention problem. So, you've got to make sure that as an accountable person, you're talking to, not about. You're not meeting after the meeting. You're not rescue fixing and saving underperformance. Those are the top 3 takeaway. Walk out of here. Be that person.

Love it. Love it. And for those of us that are leaders and we save others, we think it's helping but it's really hindering because it really shows our fallback position is, I don't believe in you. I don't believe you're capable. And if instead of enabling you, call you up to greatness. My fallback position that I'm illustrating is, I think you're fully capable. You have great potential, and I'm gonna just insist you live up to it. So I think too many people think it's helping, but it's really hurting to rescue and enable and all of those things. Plus, it totally demotivates your high accountables.

And it confuses people about what the definition of accountability is, because if I don't do my job, I get rewarded if I do or don't do my job. It's like there's no delineation there. There's always this opportunity to see accountability as learning. So again, it's the mindset. To get it in other people, you've got to change your own mindset about it to say, you know, in the past, I'd let this go or I'd fix it. And I need to stop doing that because it's hurting more than just me and you. It's hurting everything around us. So I need to take ownership of this. So that you get the learning. If I just take care of it, then you don't learn anything. Exactly what you're saying. And so, you know, we have this generation of people in high-risk professions— rocket scientists, nuclear, medicine— where they've been fixing for the generation coming behind, but this generation's retiring. Yeah. And so now we've got a bunch of people who, who are not enabled to do their job because that manager or boss wanted to be liked more than they wanted to be effective, hold people accountable to what they were capable of. And you know what? Even take the hint of not getting the bonus because they wanted people to learn more than they wanted this to be done on time. But they wanted it done right. So yeah, that whole rescue, fix, and save thing really gets us. And if you want to be liked more than you want to be effective, fine. But at least tell people, when you come to work for me, I'm going to pull punches. I want you to give me a good evaluation so I get my little 2% or my bonus or whatever because I'm what's important here, not the endeavor we're involved in. Just tell the truth.

Yeah, tell the truth. And when you tell the truth, you'll start to hear how selfish it sounds. And And perhaps how out of integrity with what you say your values are. Because if we're not willing to knowledge transfer, we're really setting people up for failure and we're caring more about ourselves than the work at hand. I know you've got just some great, great models. One of my favorite models is kind of the cycle that I think is so illustrative of how to really put accountability into practice. Do you want to— Help our listeners understand your cycle of accountability?

Yeah. When we were talking about it on the boat, I was thinking, you know, I think that this would make a good tattoo. Anyway.

Yes.

So to understand accountability, there's also— there is actually 3 components to it. And so the model very simply is waking up in the morning and there's 3 steps to it. Each time you're going into something, the first step is ownership, which is your personal responsibility going in, and then empowerment, which is the only kind of empowerment there is—is self-empowerment, your decision to take ownership going into things. And then the third leg is the step of that is accountability, answering for it. So it's owning, acting on, and answering for. And if so, you just you just. Envision a circle of arrows. And the first arrow has in it own. And the second arrow going around has in it act. And the third arrow has answer for. Own, act on, answer for. So, for example, if I am going to own, act on, and answer for a great work environment, I'm accountable for the work environment I'm in. I'm going to talk to, not about you. I'm not going to have meeting after the meeting. I'm not going to rescue, fix, and save. I want you to notice something. I get up in the morning and decide that. That's my ownership mindset. But to get that to happen, I got to take action and risk. That's the self-empowerment part. So people just say, well, give me the easy method of accountability where, you know, I get everything I want because everybody else is behaving. They're not gonna behave. You've got to decide, I'm going to be this person. I'm not going to use them as my excuse to not be personally accountable for myself. So I own, I act on— that's the empowerment, self-empowerment piece— and then I answer for it. At the end of the day, see how different your results are when you are that person. I'm going to be accountable. No excusing, no blaming, no nonsense, no excuse. I'm that person. There's a whole list of behaviors. But yeah, the model is responsibility, empowerment, accountability. Own, act on, answer for you, whether anybody else is or not.

And it's so simple. It may not be easy. I hear people, it's I understand it's all about mindset, and I hear people making, I'll get there as soon as, like reality gets perfect. And there's this whole as long as piece that people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that. And then they get into, as long as everybody else does the same, or as long as we have the money involved. And for me, a lot of people will say, I'm gonna do that, And then they'll list a condition as soon as reality changes. And I have to keep coming back and say, well, no, no, no, no, no. Given that we're pretty sure reality will be that we don't have enough money, we don't have enough time, and everybody doesn't do their fair share— given that, now what are you going to do? And I know that you hear that as well when people really get into this bargaining. I will as long as they, they have these conditions

They do. And so the tool, a major main tool that's right in the center of own, act on, and answering for is clear agreement. And I just, I would boil it down to the example of getting on an airplane to go to another state. So you take ownership of the trip you're going to be on. But if you get on the plane and the pilot says, hi, welcome to our airline. So glad you chose us. I pretty much think maybe we're going to get to San Francisco today. Not sure. Might get there. Might not. That is not a plane you want to be on. So, in your life, each time you're able to say, so, what is the own, act on, answer for? What's the clear agreement about that with the people that I'm either paying, working with, working for? What is that clear agreement? So, we actually have a tool that has changed lives because it's like, sit down together and get clear. And what you will learn if you have the courage to go through clear agreement isn't how to document a performance improvement plan and just writing things down and having people sign at the bottom. It's together coming to mutually clear expectations, which are the bane of a lot of managers' existence because they say stuff and think everybody fills in the blanks. You learn so much about how unclear you are that prevents people from being accountable. And if you're willing to take the hit in figuring that out, and I have a lot of senior-level executives going, oh my gosh, I am so unclear. I say, yeah, you don't. It's not about feeling bad about that. It's about just understanding you have an opportunity to be clear in these areas that you have not been clear. Clear agreement. Get into the discipline of it. And when people say, why are you writing all this down? Why are we Why are we meeting to get into these details? Don't you trust me? It's like, no, I don't trust me. I'm learning I'm the most unclear person on earth. How could you possibly be successful, do what I need when I'm learning how unclear I am? So yeah, use me as a resource once we get this laid out. And so, it walks you through 5 sections of clarity and then off you go. You're capable. I'm right here as a resource. Do it.

I love it. I love it. And your language is so delightful. And when I talk, And give presentations, people really pick up on the language. And it's stepping out of the emotional blackmail when somebody's like, well, why are you documenting all these? And why does it have to be in writing? And is it that you don't trust me? That's emotional blackmail to say, hey, let's go back to being unclear so neither of us have to be accountable. And you stepped right out of the emotional blackmail that says, no, it's not about you at all. I just don't trust me. I'm so unclear. I'm working on this. I'm doing this for me, and it just totally drops your end of that proverbial tug-of-war rope that we all get caught holding on to and going back and forth. You know, part of being clear is to really define not just what you want done, but what impact is it gonna have. And I think that It's tough for people. It takes some intentionality to really step away from the goals that are set for us and really take a look at the why or what's the impact. And I know that you have another great technique you use with leaders to get them to just stop repeating goals and going after compliance and really thinking about what is it, what makes us successful. Can you speak more towards that?

Yeah, so I think in the clear agreement, we talk about, well, what are the stakes of not completing this? And what are the benefits of completing this? And even more oddly, I really encourage people who have low accountability not to use clear agreement because they need to be managed very closely versus, hey, let's get clear. Sai, you and I are going to use clear agreement. But then, you have it. You've got the ball. If you need me to block and tackle you, let me know where that's happening. And so, I wanted to really make sure that little piece was clarified because clear agreement isn't for making sure someone gets to work on time. It's when, you know what? I'm good. I want to own this fully and I want you, Sai, to know I have got this. And so, that's why we make sure this on this documentation part that people at first really start to resist versus sitting in a meeting going, you know what? I don't think that was clear at all. This is a good time for a clear agreement. Let's get a clear agreement so we're not having the meeting after the meeting. Okay. So, I was thinking about that when you asked me the last question. So now ask me that question again because I don't know where I was.

Sure, sure. Well, I'm glad you clarified this because— and we'll get to this another question in a minute— is to even be accountable. Some people go, oh well, I have these people that are lower in accountability on my team and I can't do anything about it. Well, you can. You can micromanage them if you need. And people are like, well, I shouldn't be a micromanager. Well, if somebody is not showing up, even willing to be accountable, you might need to manage them more. I was asking about How you also add clarity in the work you do with executives by helping them move away from compliance towards goals to really getting conscious and intentional around what success looks like.

So yes, have the goal. But then, then say, so what are we saying success is? And this is very common with IT clients. I'll come in, the team is kind of broken down a little bit. They've fallen off the high-performance wagon. And I'll say, Okay, so what's the goal? And they'll say, go live by September 24th. And I'll say, okay, you got to go live with the new software September 24th. What's the definition of success for that? Go live September 24th. Nope, nope, that's the goal. So, I asked them to get clear on what success is and the goal. And this is what one of the teams in particular came back with, which was brilliant. And it really was a point of success. They came back and they said, okay, We're going to go live September 24th. But our definition of success is 6 months from the go-live date, we're going to come back. We're going to meet. We'll meet many times in between there. But at the 6-month mark, success is no one did a workaround. Everybody used the problem-solving process because these go-lives never go smoothly, perfectly. There has, you know, we have backouts. We have this and that. But we are going to have a problem-solving process. If they hit something that doesn't work, and everyone will have used problem-solving instead of bubble gum and Scotch tape and workarounds and complaining. And at the 6-month mark when they turned back and we had that, then there was this huge— we were successful. Because I want you to notice something. When you hit the goal, we don't celebrate that. It's like, okay, what's next? Next goal. What do we got to do? Versus, hey, this is a point of celebration and everyone felt it. So, I have millions of examples where when we added, okay, so what are we saying success is? You get a whole different engagement level for people because they want to be successful and part of something great, not just hit the goal because that is not rewarding.

Love it! Love it! And is a lot of what you're talking about in your book, The 85% Solution?

Yes, page 90 is the definition of success. Page 90 is my favorite of The 85% Solution, how personal accountability guarantees success No nonsense, no excuses. Guaranteed success. Page 90. Will you please in your life go through and define success for yourself and stay with it? It's like this is a living, breathing document. Your life circumstances change. So you started your job, you weren't maybe not in a committed relationship, maybe no children. Then that happens. Then, you know, you're moving out. I'm just moving on to the kids are Graduated college. My definition of success is changing again. If you don't calibrate that definition of success for you personally first, a terrible at it when you're at work because with other people, it's like when they ask, "Well, what is success?" I don't know. I don't even know how to do that. You will know how to do it for yourself and then for smaller projects and teams. But you've got to be a safe place for people to expose. Well, what's success now? My brief example is before my kids were born. Yeah. Success was go out, speak, get money, come back. This is awesome. But as the kids were growing up, the more I was away, the less successful I felt, even though the money was getting better. So I had to make a decision. 6 nights a month is my limit. And yeah, that might mean I make less, but success to me is time with them, time a couple of times a month with my husband without them going out. And to, you know, every day I was home at least an hour with no technology that we were just having face-to-face conversations. Yeah, it's not grand things. It's like what really helps you make decisions to be successful. So, if there's boards that wanted me on their board but it was night meetings and I had 2 little kids, it's like, no, that made the decision. That's not in my definition of success. Yes, it's a missed opportunity for exposure and more. But I would have been miserable and not felt successful.

Which I love because it just takes you out of the victim seat where it's like, you know, I can clearly make a decision because that fuels my clear idea about what success looks like, and/or it doesn't. And I think that lack of clarity is really important to the ego because the more ambiguity there is, the more I can just make choices willy-nilly and then blame the the world that they asked rather than I agreed. So, I just—

The 85% Solution is going to pummel you because it's going to keep taking away all those things that you're using as your excuse not to. Now, when I talk to people, they think I expect this 100% personal responsibility. We call it The 85% Solution because I got to tell you, by data and measure at 85%, that person's going to be a problem solver. 15% lands on your head. I get that. I mean, there's all kinds of moving parts. here. We've got political environments and we have world and global things. And we have local and we have our families. So, the reality is of this 100% personal responsibility available to all of us as we measured this, that person that was measuring at 85 or higher, they would just respond differently. Their mindset was, I still have to own, act on, and answer for. I still have to take upfront ownership for results, good or bad. But I may need to change my definition of success. Because now, you know, Apollo 13, we don't have a way to breathe. So now, the definition of success is build an apparatus that gets us home alive. So, you've got to be able— that's agility. That's resilience. That's moving into that space. That 100% never goes anywhere. You're choosing. Do I want to do this? Do I not? And I'm not talking about positive mental attitude. That's annoying. It is a reality. Yeah. You've got a full tank of 100%. And you gotta, you know, make sure you're not turning the spigot off or standing on the airway because you want to blame other people. Get back to what is it you want again. Okay, is that doable? If it isn't, then redefine success. You could head for something, not lower your standards, not give up, but say, okay, but what is success? It just shifted. I have to own that.

And that involves making choices because success can't be You know, I want to have it all. You can have your definition of success, but if you don't have it defined, you know, people—it's hard. You got to make choices in life, and that's part of being accountable. I really hope people go out and just really dig into your book because that was how I discovered you when I had just published with Wiley. You had published before me with Wiley, and when I was looking at how to measure accountability based on locus. of control. In my lit review, you immediately came up and just loved your work in this area. And accountability, so many people are talking about it, but very few people understand it and understand the evidence around it. And you've done just amazing research to— you have so many data points to where you're saying in this 85% place, there is this mindset of problem solving and non-victimhood. And I— so I really encourage our listeners to go out and really get that resource. There's another book that you wrote that I actually just dug into last night for a little late night reading because you were so gracious to give me that book. I didn't know you had written it. And it's all about the mindset of growing, like how to Grow Yourself by Knowing What You Need and What Works for You and Growing Others. And I'd love for you to talk just a little bit about the insights that you write about in that book.

That insight came because I saw how many people didn't want to start where people were. And I had to figure out a way to say, you can't just take this concept of personal accountability and plop it on top of people. You have to start where they are. And as I was doing assessment and saying, oh, look, some people are assessing at 60%. Accountability in summer, it's 70% accountability in summer, 80% accountability. So those three demarcation points turned into a garden analogy, and I said, "Okay, you're all gardeners now." Bonk! Now you have three plants you have to tend in your garden of accountability at work or in your family wherever you want. And the three plants are a weed, a daisy, and an orchid. All right. So you have a visceral reaction right there: weed, daisy, orchid. Weed. But that's what we want. We want weed. Weeds. We want weeds. So, weeds are low maintenance. They come in organizations. Got dirt? I grow. So, they're in the 85% range in their mindset. It's like, yeah, there's cement. Sometimes, I have to jump in the crack and grow there. There's weed killer. It's just part of the politics and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got that. But give me challenge because I— you don't have to come and check on me and Feed me and do all that stuff. I'm gonna look for the challenge. They need mentors. So you mentor weed, you lead weeds, mentor them. Then the second plants, and that's 70s on average, they're pretty average in their accountability, but it's good. It's solid. They can grow if you tend them. So maybe they need some sun and shade and you coach them. You say, you know what? You're great. Here's an area I could see you really can be better on. Let's meet twice a week. Month for a couple hours and I'll coach you in that area, get you a coach. So you're really paying attention, give them coaching and give them an opportunity to grow into being a weed. They can do that shift. And then the third plant is an orchid. They're pretty. It's like, I need steam. It's too hot. It's too cold. Where's my special food? Turn me to the left. The sun needs it. And it's like, oh my gosh, you are sucking me dry. They're pretty but they're high maintenance. They don't have a real root system. They might have been a weed in their last organization. Then, they come in this one like, you don't know what you're doing. Or, you are great at your skill but your people skills are just— you're just a mess.

You're emotionally expensive. You're high drama.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, with them, you have to manage. If I have picked up on this person is an orchid, It's not better or worse than a weed. It needs something different. Treating everyone the same is not the same as being fair. So give it what it needs to thrive. I would meet with this person often. How are you? What do you need today? What's going on? Are you clear about the expectations? And they'll go on and on, possibly about their victimness. I didn't realize this is what the job was going to be. Okay, well, let's fix that. But unless you give it that short-term, a lot of attention, what happens is you often find yourself bringing the whole team together and you're like, we need to step it up. Everybody's got to take ownership. We're going to do some accountability training, blah, blah. And the weeds are going, you know what? I've been in this meeting 4 times. I do what I'm asked to do. I'm getting the work of the underperformer. Excuse me. Why don't you just meet with the 2 people who are the problem? And then, they're on their way out. Yeah. If you could just say to the people that are Needing coaching, they're going to get that. You give the challenge to the people that you know, own, act on, and answer for, and don't give you a big story. And then the orchids find out: is the problem they're they're not capable of what they're in, and they need to shift, or they've made a living finding people who will rescue, fix, and save them? And if you rescue, fix, and save, you have a target on your back. They are like a heat-seeking missile. They've find you and they work for you. So you've got to say, I'm stopping this, gonna start treating you like you're capable. A lot of times they're the fastest to change, the orchid analogy, because when I do the assessment and I kind of give them the analogy, I don't know who's who, but they see this big graph and they're like, who are those people down there? Oh my gosh, that's me. Wow, I do blame, I do finger point, I do, I Oh wow, no one's ever told me blah blah blah. But man, I've had amazing shifts because people see where they really are relative to where they think they are.

You know, people ask me all the time, will these folks change? And my answer is, I think everybody's capable of change. You've got to decide how much time you want to invest in that. But they won't change if you enable them or keep the data from them. And so, you know, we too, when we have people go through the Employee Value Equation assessment, a lot of the folks who are those high maintenance folks have not ever been told you are too expensive for this organization. But where I think it makes all the sense in the world is in accountability. We need to address that and not bend reality, not enable, to say, here's the deal. Here's where you're And you've got some choices to make. You can sign up and, you know, meet more of your own needs instead of expecting us to do this and, you know, really thrive here or not. Either way is good. But I don't want that target on my back that you think you're going to be able to continue to be here, stay and critique, stay and drain the, you know, the organization. It's unfortunate because Because a lot of folks really settle in that orchid status because they have lack of insight and they've not been given good data to make good decisions on about themselves.

And they absolutely pick up on people who would rather be liked than effective.

Yeah, they definitely, definitely do. So I don't think we told listeners, just for a quick minute, your background or how you got into this business. You started off in broadcast journalism. And, uh, I think a little bit like me, your career was born out of frustration, um, with, um, the people that you were covering.

Yeah.

Is that partly true?

Yeah, I was— I, I love the profession of broadcast journalism. I always wanted to be on the radio as a child. I had decided that's what I wanted to do, and, and I got to be a newscaster and an anchor very, very quickly once I had gotten the training in school and, and I was hired in right away and just went right to the top station in the first market I was in. I have a, you know, just a knack for it. But one day it all changed and I had to redefine success. And what changed was that I went from having a news director as a boss to a sales manager as a boss, meaning that the commercial advertising was dictating what we could and could not say on the air. So if this advertiser was in trouble, That story didn't make it to air because they paid the advertising bill and they would pull their advertising from us. And I, I was just not on that planet. I didn't even understand how ratings work. None of it. I was a news person. That's what I want to do. And when that happens, like you can't do that story, and I'm like, I'm not following. And then I was following. And then the over time, the penny really dropped around. Figuring out what I was going to do next, hearing CEO after CEO in the news understand accountability perfectly when things were working— my stock, my company, my idea, I did this. And then when things were falling apart, well, you know what, there was a whole nother group of people doing stuff I wasn't aware of. There was a second set of books. How can you expect me to know what's going on in my company? Completely changing The definition of accountability. Like, I was just stunned. And when I really realized that the people who are going to be low stress, productive, high performance, they're not going to change the definition of accountability depending on working, not working. And they're not going to use other people as their excuse not to live up to the 100% they have. So, leaders understand one thing. I am accountable individually and collectively at the same time. So, my job is to get people where I am by being as accountable as I am. And there's only one way to get the level of accountability you want in others. You cannot mandate it. You can only demonstrate it. You excuse and blame, they excuse and blame. You take ownership, they take

ownership. As the leaders go, the employees go.

Period. Period, period, period. That's it. It's always the leader. And nothing says you can't be the leader in any situation you're in. Nothing.

I think that's so important to take away and so frustrating because we call it— well, we don't call it— it's called attribution theory, that when things are going well, it's because I did that, and when things are going poorly, it's because I'm a victim of that. So if it was a success, I'll claim it. If it wasn't a success, success, I'll blame it. And, you know, I just, I think that is so important. And we talk about as the leaders going, and I think one of the things that we as leaders have to get really good at is after our own self-reflection, coming back and actually, you know, demonstrating that with our teams that, you know, here's what happened and here's my part in it to really own it and show that I have insight. So I know what my part was. Right. I have insight how it affected other people or the community or, you know, the world. And I then ask people, what can I do to make it right so that I make some restitution? And I follow up on those amends. And I just think— you and I were talking yesterday— it'd be so great if a CEO actually got up after an oil spill and claimed it, showed insight Insight on how it affected others, and really instead of just saying so my lawyers advised me to set up a global fund for this, really ask like for some input on what could we do to make this right by you. And I think people would let go of and forgive so much more easily if there was in marriage counseling called a proper repair attempt. But I think anytime something happens, wouldn't it be great if we had you, Linda, write a template they had to fill in the blank? Like, what would the template be for any leader that had to get up and own something? What would you have them fill in the blank around?

Hi, that wasn't good. This is what I did. Here's what I learned. Here's what I would do differently. Here's how I'm accountable going forward.

Love it.

The second there's ownership, there's no more story anymore. Stories will go on and on.

Ownership just diffuses the drama immediately. Because self-reflection is the ultimate drama diffuser. And then when you're owning it, there's no drama. I can't go, yeah, what you said. And I think people keep the drama and the story going and the disengagement and the frustration with the company when they just won't own it. They just continue to blame or tell the backstory. And I think people respond so poorly to it. I know my listeners are going to want a whole lot more from you, Linda. How do they find you? We've already talked about The 85% Solution. What was the name of your other book?

Way to Grow: Cultivating the Weeds, Daisies, Orchids in Your Organization. And if you're in sales, you want to read Where Winners Live: Sell More, Earn More, Achieve More Through Personal Accountability.

Awesome.

Yeah, so

love it.

Best place to just gorge yourself on all my nuggets of wisdom is lindagalindo.com, and that then trees off into all of my social media, like you, the blog. We're coming up on a podcast, so I'm looking forward to announcing that that's gone live, and all of my writing over the many years. But you will see yourself in, in a lot of it, from the best possible vantage point. And it's just like the archetype of the, the little boy in the Emperor's New Clothes. You're not crazy. You are seeing what you think you're seeing. And this will give you lots and lots of ways to act on that rather than go back into the, the darkness of the consort around the Emperor who said, we're just gonna pretend like we didn't see that. Well, now that I've seen it, what do I do with it? That's what you're gonna get a whole bunch of.

Yeah, and that's what I love about your work is you don't just disrupt and say this is the problem. You go, and here is what you can do right now for yourself to operate more freely in this reality. And I just— it's been such a pleasure to meet one of my idols, and you went from idol to idolized friend, so I consider you now on my friend list as well. And thank you for coming on the podcast. Listeners, I really hope that you connect in, and your homework assignment is definitely be thinking about your part in how you are enabling others and what you could do differently, how to make some of those repair attempts. So yeah, Linda, thank you, thank you, thank you.

My absolute privilege. Thank you, Cy.

Thank you so much for joining the episode today. If you're loving this podcast, just make sure that you check me out on Facebook and Instagram and especially YouTube.