A Step by Step to Coaching Beyond Drama and Excuses

Welcome everyone to another episode of Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled here to be back with Alex. We both have taken a bit of time over the summer just to catch our breath and catch up with family. And, and so I hope some of you have been enjoying some of the other great material we've been putting out, but we are back and excited to pick up some topics that we're hearing from people out in the Marketplace that they're hoping we talk more about. So hi, Alex, good to have you back.

Good to be back. And yeah, excited. We put out a few keynote clips just to show like kind of our— us being fired up on stage, but it's good to get back to these conversations.

Yeah, a lot of people are enjoying the keynote piece, but I think they want to know more of the, uh, the informal but formal, how to go deeper into some of these topics. So I'm glad to serve. That's our whole goal here with the Reality-Based Leadership podcast is to take some of the principles you know. A lot of people have heard this content in a keynote or in a training session, and they want some refreshers. And part of refreshing isn't just revisiting the content, but helping you understand it in new ways, understand new applications, maybe be privy to some conversations that Alex and I have when we're together about how we can help others or what clients should consider or what we want to invite them to in order to practice the material, but we'll kind of give you that inside look. So the topic that we want to talk about today is really how to get more, maybe even prescriptive or more standardized and systemic about the practice of reality-based leadership. And, you know, Alex and I talk a lot about if you aren't using the tools of RBL, you aren't Practicing RBL. Like, this isn't just about the ahas or the insight or the content. Or even if you're just using one tool like SBAR, there's 11 more really big tools. And a lot of times we start with SBAR and we feel like we have been able to clearly define the situation, but no one yet has taken accountability. No one has managed the energy away from why we can't to how we could. So you might be seeing things more clearly, but even victims can see things. more clearly, it doesn't necessarily lead to, you know, results. And so Alex and I have become a lot clearer on a process that we wanted to share. And that's actually— it's the backbone for your book, right, Alex?

Yeah, yeah, it is. The book I'm writing, How We Could, is, you know, if I was going to summarize it, trying to update a bit Reality-Based Leadership with all those great ideas, but make it into this sequential way in which to coach using the tools. So kind of integrating both of those ideas. And the, the main thing that I saw in there is people ask us almost like how to whack-a-mole the drama. So it's like, this situation happens. So first, how do I identify which source of drama it is? So like, if it's ego, is it ego? Is it lack of accountability? Is it just resistance to change? And then from there, the next question is like, so what tool do I use? Yeah. And that worked for a while. And I feel like that's how we've taught it sometimes, even in like our certification, or that's the easiest way to teach it. But the model is sometimes it's a, it's a process needed. And Sai already hinted at it, but it's like, are we seeing the problem clearly? Like, have we cleaned up our thinking? And then now that we're seeing the problem clearly, then wait a minute, what's our part in it is the question to ask. What's our role moving forward, like in the solution? And then how engaged are we in this? So there's a couple things to think about. And then what's next right action? And so with that, there's a chance to put a tool in each of those steps. And as you continue the process, you end pretty clear. I often say the next right action reveals itself, but some of that groundwork upfront helps. And so it's not this whack-a-mole source of drama comes, we smack it down. It's for each unpreferred reality or situation, it might be a walkthrough, a few tools to get to next right action. So that's how I really see it in the book, Cy. And what would you add to that?

Well, it's really a way, you know, we talk about delivering up ready, willing, and able teams. Like, readiness isn't making change least disruptive to the team, it's delivering up ready, willing, and able teams that can act locally and then provide good information. And, you know, not just learn it, but I want them to practice it. It seemed like they didn't have enough of a clear format. And for many of us, that just I've been doing it for years. It was almost like I was unconsciously competent because I know how I work through challenges that come up when I'm coaching groups and working through our group coaching sessions that we're using a lot after our content sessions. I know that I use it. I think you noticed me using a process, but we've never really spelled it out for people, and I love how you have spelled it out. So Yeah, I would love for you to jump into, you know, kind of the sequential 3-stage process that you talk about practitioners of RBL getting into a rhythm and really just moving through in very conscious and intentional ways, using the tools to deliver people up to the next step and then really helping them have impact.

Well, I mean, the process started— this mantra, Sai, you started during the pandemic, but it was like, love people up and call people up. I think that's been your mantra with everything as Reality-Based Leadership forever, but you really got, like, saw that that was needed right now. And so, as we were thinking about that for the new book, it was like, well, one thing that people get excited about with RBL is the tool or the way to coach something. So, if someone's struggling, they go right into like edit your story. Like, they go right into a tool. And it's like, wait a minute, did you validate their experience? Did you see that person? Did you say, dang, that's frustrating. I can see why you're frustrated. And otherwise, it's like you don't care. You just want to get it solved with a tool. And so we were looking at that mantra of loving people up and calling people up, and that's what led to this sequential piece. And so I'll just go through the call to greatness framework I'm calling it in the book. So the first step is when someone's facing an unpreferred reality or they're in front of you struggling, and this can be for yourself as well, obviously, is to validate that experience. Dang, that's frustrating. You didn't get the information you needed. I hate when that happens to me. So that's that loving people up. It's empathy's the big term out there now. It's like the start of empathy. It can also be the start of sympathy. We'll get there. And then once I validated your experience and the feeling, if you're suffering, I want to invite you to reconsider the sense you're making of this experience. And so if you're seeing a lot of demons—

That's strong.

That's step 2. And then that's where we break down and the tools come in. So the first way to do that is I'm going to invite you to clean up your thinking. And so that's where the first set of tools comes in. And then once we've cleaned up our thinking, the next step we called it is finding your space for impact. And so now I've cleaned up my thinking. Now let's look at the space for impact on— now that I see the problem clear, what I can do. And there's kind of a mantra in there, but it's like, what's your part in it so far? What's your role in the possible solution? And then we added in there like, What's your engagement throughout this process? And that hits some big tools we'll get into. And then the final step when you're there is then what's next right action? And some tools fit in there you can use. So again, in short, it's validate your experience and then let's clean up your thinking, find your space for impact, and take next right action. And, and that's really, um, you know, it looks like a lot. You're like, how can I do that for every problem? What you'll see is the first time through it might take a while, but as you get the hang of it, We started to see, and this is what Cy does and what I've started to do being doing this for 10 years, is you can skip some of those steps because it's an innate mental process. But then where you get snagged, you might have to dive deeper into a visual tool. And, and so that's what we could go into. So I just want to frame that up and we'll write it out in the show notes. But that's the idea of this framework. And I see it as every situation that comes to you, if you have that process, you just start to funnel through. What I found is as you think through things like that, you can catch quickly when the person you're supporting which part they're stuck in, and then you can, um, go from there. So it's a little bit of like a, a diagnostic, um, technique as well, but also to support you in finding next right action.

Each tool has built in a good mental process. What we're really giving you is a consistent good mental process on how to move through the world more skillfully. And, you know, we invite people to clear up their thinking and see reality as it's is, that's really just the toggling them up in higher levels of consciousness so that then they can, once you're toggled up, you can move into personal accountability. And everybody craves impact and really helping people see where they could have impact. And that clear thinking helps people really dissolve a lot of the problem so that they're really working on the right problem and it's not corrupted with their story or their history or You know, their data. And so, as you like to say, like then we're when it comes to right action, we're not taking wrong action.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And I found a lot of people, those busy bees, which I've been that before. You got to be productive. So you're you're taking a lot of action. But if you skip the the cleaning up thinking and then taking accountability for your part in the situation, even if it seems like you know others are failing you or drop the ball, it's like. What's my part in it so far? And then what's my role moving forward? And I can talk about that a bit, but it's mainly, are you the decision maker kind of in the situation? Have you been asked to be a consultant in the situation? Are you to be informed? And so once you understand that part of your role and then next right action, so if you, if you have those clean, then your action is in the space you can plug and play. But I find a lot of people out there that I see that are frustrated is they're taking a bunch of action. But again, back to clean thinking, they're not clean on their ego-based thinking about the problem or what the problem is, or they're taking action from the wrong role for what the situation merits. They're like, I should have been consulted on this when they're just in that to be informed and helping us execute or, or, or, you know, fix the issue, at least in the short term. And so that's where people start to get really frustrated where they're taking all this action but not seeing really true good results.

And I think that it's so important when we're trying to move the energy from why we can't to how we could. These steps in the sequence is so important because the first reason we think we can't is that we're the victim and we outsource any impact we could have. And we are faced with an unpreferred reality and we argue with it or we try and wish it away or we outsource, somebody should do something. And so I think it really brings us out of the victim role and that clean thinking and moves us into finding where we can have impact by understanding our part in this and our role. And as we move into next right action, we are not just being lame in the fact that, oh, this was done to me, but I will rescue it anyway. We're saying, no, I'm going to cleanly approach reality and respond this way. And at the same time, simultaneously, we can work on process issues, we can work on strategy issues, that it's not this game of chicken that, you know, I have to suffer until somebody else fixes it. It gets us out of outsourcing our quality of life and our results.

Yeah, I've added that to so much of coaching in my sessions lately, Cyne. I think you've done this as well. One of our tools is get you into next right action, like toggling up, you know, what would great look like given this situation's not ideal? And you can always find a place that you can help short-term, like tend to the need. Then people are like, what? So I over-function? It's always like on me. Like if it's up to me to be, it's to be me. You know, it's like I have to do everything. But I always say, no, that's the short-term. Just take care of the patient or the customer there, get it stabilized. Then there's midterm. You might be like, is this a pattern? Are we seeing this consistently as a process issue, or is this something that comes up every Thursday? Or, you know, and then it's, then it's from there, check that. And then long-term is, do we need to, you know, submit this as something to continuously improve? And I feel like that helps get that ego out of the way that's like, oh, follow this framework. And it's always like my fault to figure it out. It's yes, you have a part to play. And then you can also still take next right action. without doing it all midterm and long-term. So I like that short-term, midterm, long-term to have impact in all those areas.

To notice whenever we're over-rotating, overreacting, oversimplifying, polarizing, you know, getting into really simplistic thinking. Any over is the work of the ego because the ego needs to be really disgruntled about, you know, this overreaction. And the way to bring people back to center is always the and. It's like, well, no, actually, let's look at what we can do right now locally, given these circumstances. And then that will make sure our data is not corrupt so we can be credible witnesses and provide good feedback for continuous improvement. And we can really show where there's a business case for more strategic improvement. And, and, and, and. Yep. A lot of times, the ego wants to overreact to keep hold of that victim spot. And and the ego just doesn't like like sayings like it's all figureoutable, and this is all we can work this out. Like the ego doesn't like soothing comments because it feeds on disgruntlement, and it feeds on you know danger and fear. And you've got to paint the world a scary place, or like somebody's. trying to do something to you. And so just really be noticing right now as you use these things when you're over anything.

Yeah. And as I was thinking about, you go through that whole cycle and it shoots you out at next right action. A part that is soothing for me about the book is, uh, so then you move forward, you kind of forge forward with that. That's your best take. You've cleaned up your thinking, you're in your right role for impact, you're taking next right action. Some people might still ask like, but what if it's the wrong action? Or what if it doesn't work? Or what if it backfires? And then you're in another unpreferred reality. Guess what starts again? You just clean up your— validate your experience, clean up your thinking. And that's just trusting that process, I think, is easier than saying, am I doing the right thing? And you just iterate as you go. And I— you and I both love Byron Katie, but at the end of one of her worksheets, as you're working through some stressful thoughts, you have to put, I look forward to this horrible thing you just like had to work through and reflect on that you don't want to ever happen again. You have to turn around and say, I look forward to having Jim roll his eyes at me in a meeting again. And it's like, so then you—

You need to show up again.

Yeah, 'cause you're gonna go through work and there's gonna be something you didn't expect, unpreferred reality, someone drops the ball, you miss something. So then, but you have that to support you, the Call to Greatness framework. And that way, I think, just is the way of it to have a great career and see what happens. And so I don't know what you think about that side. Another thought I added, I think I said it once and we had a little bit of pushback. I like when we disagree on, RBL-type content is, is we got into how this fits in with empathy or sympathy. And, um, and again, they both start the same. I validate your experience. That's empathy and sympathy start that way. But we've often said empathy ends with a call to greatness at the appropriate time where I get you more skillful or, um, finding a way to have impact given this unpreferred reality. Where sympathy is I kind of collude with you and we're both doomed and there's nothing we can do and we're the innocent victims. And I threw out there once, and I don't know what you think now on it. I thought, you know, with this call to greatness framework, if I back out of that as a leader walking you through that process, and this might be, it might take 2 weeks for us to first do an SBAR, clean up your thinking, get into that second part, find your space for impact. Maybe we got to let it sit a bit and then we'll find next right action. It doesn't have to be in 1, 2, 10-minute conversation. But if I let you out of that, I almost am leaving you in sympathy because I'm not supporting you in getting to that next right action. I've kind of gotten too scared to go through that process with you. And I said that once and I still kind of believe that, but I wonder what you think on that. I think you thought it was a stretch at the time that in a way, if you go through that whole process, even if it takes a month to get through all of it, I'm actually being as empathetic as I can be as a colleague or a leader, because I keep pointing you back to the tools in that process to keep you reflecting. But if I just give up on you and say, you know what, I'm not going to work with you to find your space for impact, or no, there's no next right action, Then I've kind of dropped my part in supporting you and loving you up and calling you up. What are your thoughts on that? I wanted to get back to you on that comment.

I'm trying to go back to where I would have disagreed with how you just stated that, because I think the most empathetic thing you can do is help people build skills that they can then walk more freely through the world because the world's messy. So I believe that's great. Where I think at times we run into sympathy is when I let you believe there's a third option. Or even a second option. And so the sympathy— I mean, if walking away from that, not only is it not empathetic, it's really— it's, it's not the best leadership. But if I'm willing to work with you for 2 years on this thing, then I'm leading you to believe— I think where I took— Oh, interesting. Your reply on that is that if I'm putting that option out there, like, don't worry about it, we'll come back to this, if I'm not insisting that one of my non-negotiables for you to be performing your job fully and meeting expectations is for you to be able to work these tools. Like, if your toggle switch is broken, if it's rusted down, that's a performance issue. And so for me, there's always discernment with, you know, how long I'll go with this. So I'll bring something up and somebody will act defensively, and I'll try and bring it back to center. I'll continue to try and stay calm and make my point and invite them back. Ultimately, I have to have a conversation that says, you know what, I love the confidence you're showing, but you're really ruling out expertise that I also can bring to the table as your leader in the business. Yeah. And so, especially with high accountables, they get really righteous and they really shut down. And it's like, I still have something to offer you here as a leader. I'm still facilitating your way through that. And so I think at times it's more when you allow people to think that that part's optional.

That's a layer to it I haven't thought about. And maybe the wrong word was disagreement. I think you were like, I got to think more about that because I was connecting, I think, too close. Like, you know, this is a weird way, is a new way to— because we get a lot of questions like, yeah, but is RBL empathetic? Like, this seems a little bit like harsh. And when I look at that Call to Greatness framework, you validate the experience and the feeling. So that's, that's love. And, you know, you truly feel that. And that can take one sentence, like, I see that, that's really frustrating, but then I'm here with you and all I'm asking is, will you reflect on this tool? Like, will you go into some self-reflection? And I get what you're saying is if over like a month you refuse to try an SBAR or you refuse to reflect on the accounting for tool, like, I can only work with the willing. And then this becomes kind of part of your performance on this team is we're going to toggle up. And you're actually like refusing to try and toggle up. So I see what you're saying is it's, you don't stay around doing it for 2 years, but I see where you're seeing that the way I looked at that all the way through is actually empathy. And a lot of people think if I keep pointing you to a tool and thinking inside the box and some of these cleanup thinking tools, that it's like, they say it's like mean as a leader. And I can't see that. I'm like, that's the most empathetic thing you can do where I'm with you. I see you're struggling, but let's reflect on this with a tool to clean up and find your next space to impact it. So, so I don't think a disagreement was the word. I think it was a good layer there about how long we doing this? 2 years and you're still not through that cycle? Yeah, so that makes sense.

I mean, I often say reality is tough and leadership is love, and a lot of people, you know, are like, oh, so this is tough love and it's not empathetic. And I would tell you it is clean love. I mean, there's many types of love. A lot of it is codependent. And the cleanest love is, I see greatness in you and I will continue to invite you to step up into it. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and the ego, you know, will distort a lot of things. And the ego is so quick to say, you know, oh, what about my psychological safety? And I'm like, what about it? Did you bring it with you? Are you setting boundaries? Are you self-regulating? Are you adulting? Because psychological safety is pretty portable. And so when they put that on me, they're like, look what you're doing to my psychological safety. I'm like, time out. Let's talk first what you're doing with your psychological safety. Because so far, I've just been able to try and keep presenting and connecting. And I'm not saying it's one or the other. It's joint responsibility. But we're making a lot of things optional right now in the workplace. And something I don't think is optional is using adult good mental processes to not believe everything we think and to move our way through tough situations in scientifically evidence-based methods that are proven to deliver us up to a place, not just where we solve the problem, we have business results, but where people find their place of impact so they can engage and where people quit outsourcing their happiness to circumstances, and they actually can be part of adding value by impacting circumstances and find their place of impact. And I think a lot of people are feeling hopeless today because I think leaders aren't helping people find their place of impact. They are having a lot of discussions about where they don't have impact, but they aren't finding discussions about where they could have impact.

I love how you said that because we focus a lot on how this gets to like next right action results, but also just the framework itself. Is almost checkmate for disengagement from what I can see, because we show the unpreferred reality. And then if you go through that and actually entertain each tool to clean up thinking, find space for impact, next right action, it just reveals itself like, oh, here's 2 or 3 things I could do. And so that's where engagement's a choice. If you just follow the simple instructions, now you're back engaged. You just plugged right into that space between the unpreferred reality and the different future. There it is for you. And so I love that, you know, we've had so much trouble over the years, um, trying to be like, how's this fit in with engagement? And some groups are like, if you do RBL, are you going to tank engagement? I'm like, literally, this is showing everyone the pathway to re-engage in whatever situation comes up that's tempting to disengage at work. And so I see it as, in a weird way, called, you know, a nice checkmate. If you, if you just follow the tools in that framework, you're back engaged. And then that, I feel like that gives you freedom as an employee that it's like, um, I can always plug back in. It's not— I'm not at the mercy of my circumstances. And that drives, I think, happiness. And then also, we've talked a ton about results so far. So, um, couldn't be more excited. I don't know, we didn't really talk about which tool at which, but I guess that might be in the book. But, um, I don't know if we need to get that nerdy side and dive into what tool we put in each one, or if that's for a different time.

Time. Um, just to keep this short and sweet, but I think what I want people to walk away with now is a lot of times, say, if I see ego, oh, I need to edit my story. If I see, you know, blaming, I need an accounting for exercise. And this really lays it out where it says the first set of tools and exercises we do are to see reality for what it really is and take all the judgment out of it, whether that's edit your story, SBAR, this means that, all those no ego tools. And then you can move into what's my part in this, whether it's my role, or what have I done to add to this mess to date? Accounting for or thinking inside the box as far as like, given my constraints, how could we? And then that really moves you into, you know, finding— after you found your place of impact, that innovative where we can say, you know, but if we think about how we could, how could we? And I don't think we need to get deep into the tools as much as we Want to put out there that there's definitely a motion through this and a sequence. And if, as you move through that sequence, the first part happens in the second internally, that's fine. We may need to spend time in the second part, but that there's definitely a method to the madness. There's a methodology, like with project management. You don't implement before you've scoped and you don't like Like in all good processes that help us move through the world more skillfully, there is methodology and leadership. There's science behind it, and it isn't all just customized to the situation. Standard work is scalable work. And so many leaders tell me they're burnt out right now and they're not able to scale themselves. But I guarantee you, if you use standardized processes— and for me, leadership is a lot more boring than a lot of you want to make it out to be. I'm firefighting all day. Well, Firemen and firewomen, fire people have a standardized process. If we find you on the street, we have a standardized process. We clear your airway. Like, we want you breathing. We want your heart beating. Like, we don't take every body we find and approach it like differently or wait for them to tell us that they want us to check their breathing first or their airway. Like, there's so much standardization. And I really would love for people to get to a place in leadership. That that they really approach things with methodology and best practices. Because what happens is then it becomes scalable because those things start to live in the person. The person's like, "I want to go vent to my leader," but I know what she's going to do is clear up my thinking, ask me where my point of impact is, and then ask me to focus on next right action. I think I'll just stay here and work that through with my team. And that's what's going to settle everybody down, and that's what's going to get soothing out there, and that's what's going to get. That us versus them and all of that alignment that we're looking for and that empowerment. This is the path forward where we're not working against each other, but we're working for the same thing. And a lot of people lose sight on what's the enemy. And the problem is the current reality, not each other and not some of those other paths. So to me, it really simplifies leadership. It makes it accessible to everyone. And then hopefully we outgrow the need for leaders and we just have self-led teams.

Yeah, I love that. You got me thinking about when you're struggling in your reality, it's usually down to skill set, approach, or willingness. And I feel like we've done a lot with RBL in our books and our trainings. We give you the skill set, like here's the skill sets, here's the tools. This is our attempt at a modern, like taking the approach, giving you an approach with those skill sets. And then at the end of the book, I actually kind of call out willingness. I'm excited about how I finished it. It's like, so you got everything you need. Like, what's the last step? Like, what are you doing in that next unpreferred reality you face or someone comes up to you? And I'm like, I guarantee it'll be the next 5 minutes on, you know, same process. So it really becomes, like you said, standard work. I love how, you know, you said there leadership should be so boring. Like, don't overcomplicate it. And if— and maybe ours isn't the perfect, like the only way, it's definitely not. But this is a pretty good one if you love RBL. Yeah. And so love how you finished that.

Well, just to stay tuned, and you'll be hearing more from this, more from us about this. It's a little— on a podcast, we can't really train you in it, but we want to introduce concepts and bring some discussion to top of mind for you. So thanks for listening. Thanks for joining in. Check the notes. If you haven't subscribed to Reality-Based Leadership, this is our new venue that Alex and I are coming together. We're not having a lot of guests on, we're just talking about RBL, which is our expertise. Make sure you subscribe. And if you don't have your whole team subscribing to our newsletter where you get great content every 2 weeks, that's your sustainability program. Make sure you go to realitybasedleadership.com/newsletter and get everyone subscribed into that. Um, there's just so much more we can help you with if you'll let us.

Thank you, everybody. We'll see you in the next one.