Are You Over Managing and Under Leading?

Hello everyone and welcome to the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. Many of you have followed me, Cy Wakeman, founder of Reality-Based Leadership, on No Ego. That's my podcast. And Alex Dorr, who's joining us for this podcast each week, has had his own podcast, The Carvery. Those archives are pure fire, so don't delete those episodes off your phone, but definitely make sure you're subscribing to this new collaboration that he and I have called the No Ego Podcast. So hey, Alex, how are you?

I'm good, I'm good. And, uh, I'm loving this new format because our individual podcast, we'd almost get into like training mode on a concept, but here we're just, you know, talking around ideas and just seeing what comes from us together. So this has been fun to see what random stuff comes in on topics.

And, you know, we're still evolving. Like, we're not the people who are going to have like a structured podcast and walk in and say, this is how It is, and these are the goals. And, and we want to stay out of the training mode because I think the inspiration for this would be after our training sessions, you and I would get together in the office kitchen and we would be like jamming on, here's what came up today and here's where leaders are frustrated. And here's what's frustrating to me because they just aren't using the tools in front of them to solve problems.

And we're like, are you seeing this on your side? Like we're on the different parts of the country. Like, is it, it was really cool to see what synergized there. Yeah.

Yeah. And so we would like jam on it and then after we'd always be like, damn, we should have pushed record. So it's hard to take some of those spontaneous moments and bring it into a time where you and I can get together. I usually come in from Mexico, you usually come in from Dallas, but we're having a lot of great responses because these podcasts are really meant for people who are familiar. They've read the material, they have a kind of a baseline knowledge of Reality-Based Leadership. Doesn't mean if you're new here and somebody referred you, you can't listen. But if you haven't read Reality-Based Reality-Based Leadership, Reality-Based Rules of the Workplace, No Ego. If you haven't read those books, do it. If you aren't subscribed to our newsletter, you're missing out on a ton of content because we send out biweekly recaps of podcasts that each of us have been on, clips, things you can share directly with your team. In fact, I would recommend you have everybody go to realitybasedleadership.com/blog. newsletter and sign up for the newsletter. You know, a lot of you are looking for how do we sustain the learning. Number one question I get asked post-training. And we work hard to give you ways to sustain the learning, the podcast and the newsletter, and then definitely following me, Cy Wakeman, or Alex Dora on LinkedIn. We've got a lot, a lot out there. So, so yeah, so that's the topic today is, is what we're kind of seeing out there is probably going to be the topic for many of our podcasts unless we have a rare guest on. Um, but what we're seeing out there and what I wouldn't say frustrates us, but what saddens me because I'm like, the answer's right in front of you. It always is the tool. It, uh, people wanna go, yeah, but besides that, what do you have? I'm like, we have the concept, we have the tool. I promise you, if you practice that every day— I was in yoga the other day and this woman's like, yeah, but how do I get my hips more flexible? And the teacher was like, Do yoga.

She's

like, yep, I want to be really flexible. Do you have any other exercises? And she's like, I really think a daily yoga practice is kind of where, where it's at. I'm a yoga teacher, so that, that will help you.

Have you tried that first pose we've talked about? No, not that one yet. Yeah,

exactly. So, so in that spirit, you know, what are you, um, seeing out there? What do you want to talk about today? As far as what we can help people with.

You set it up so well. We almost did the same thing you just said was our problem. We were talking about something I was taking notes on. I go, oh my gosh, Sy, let's stop planning the podcast. Like, stop, this is it. And so, I don't know how to set it up, but some of the things we got into, and we'll start where we were at and back up and talk about some of these ideas, was this pattern and this tendency I'm seeing emerge, and you are yet again, and it's been there for 30 years, as you said, is this tendency to overmanage and underlead. And this ties into another idea we're talking about more and more is, is just where the higher you up are in your leadership, it's this pattern of getting down into the weeds with your team and into the procedures and all the details. When in a higher-level leadership role, it's really about clarifying kind of our goals. Where's everybody's role in achieving those goals? And then there's some space for flexibility and giving people freedom on how the work gets done. And so the last thing I wrote down in my notes is like, who sets the what we're doing? And then who's really responsible for the how it gets done? And when those get confused or people are dipping down or up into where they're not supposed to be, it gets super messy and there's just conflict everywhere. So I don't know if that sets the stage. I'm trying to summarize our notes, but Sai, if you want to build on one of those points. I think that's where we were going with our conversation.

It's a really good topic. I wrote in my first book, so probably I've been talking about this for 30 years, the tendency that people have to overmanage and underlead. And then you get over-responsible for the work of others and under-responsible for your work. And that wouldn't sound like a great strategy. Like, why would people even do that? And it's really an ego behavior. It really protects themselves. And so what I'm talking about is, as leaders are finding it difficult to staff positions or they're finding themselves with not the ideal staffing that they would prefer, or they're finding themselves with some challenges that, for lack of strategy, end up at the, you know, customer-facing or bedside of the patient. Or— and so the tendency is to hunker down. It's almost a trauma response. I will help, I'll do it myself, I will fix, like, I know how to do this. And it's a really trick of the ego because the ego gets you Fixing and firefighting and all of that, which is where you have arrogant righteous mastery with a heavy dose of I can't believe I had to do this. And so you feel like a victim anytime you feel like I had no other choice. That's your ego. It's victim stuff. It's like well, I mean nobody will set priorities, and so I had to dig in because it was crucial to the client. I take accountability. I have not processed priorities and been clear. I'm not willing to set boundaries. I am trying to never have anyone mad instead of pick who I will disappoint. Like, I, I want to be loved. I want to be seen as perfect. I, I want to— and then it's— There's no solution there. It's just exhausting and burning people out. And then we end up that way and we go, see, this is unsustainable. Ah. And we don't look as leaders in our whole part of that. And what happens when we do that is we really think the situations at hand are unsolvable. And the reality is, it's not about these situations being unsolvable. It's about leaders being underskilled and defaulting to that mastery. We like to go where we know. Now, why would we do that? Everybody says, I don't like it. Because the ego doesn't like to be vulnerable. It doesn't like to venture into the mystery. We're really good at the mastery, what we used to do, and it doesn't venture into the mystery. And by the way, what we used to do doesn't work anymore, if it ever worked. And so we keep going back to age-old solutions that we know. Anytime you're like, I know how to do this, you're in ego. If you're in the world today in 2024, like you're in ego. Mm-hmm. Most people want to be in the mastery, and we need to get into the mystery. So if you're truly leading, it's a whole different skill set. If I'm truly leading, I need to get into the mystery. It's vulnerable. I need to know— I, I need to be able to say, I don't know, but let's truly collaborate, truly figure this out. And by the way, we don't collaborate well. We collaborate on excuses and reasons we can't rather than how we could. So we'll teach you that in a minute. But although this isn't supposed to be training, I guess I'm on a roll. But then what happens is we really don't focus on those vulnerable skills of, let's try some things that probably won't work very well, and let's continuously improve along the way. And we, we are locked in this cage because we can't try new things that are imperfect because we've guaranteed our people that we'll figure it out before we roll it out to them. And we've built our own prison. Yeah. That we're sitting there looking at The, the, the door of the prison thinking we're stuck. And it really just opens from the inside, as Rumi would say, you just gotta open the door and walk out. But that's my first brush when I hear this overmanaging, underleading. And so many people will hear our entire lecture and instead of saying, okay, let's practice applying it, they'll go, but what about this unfigureoutable situation that it will never work on? And to you and I, it's so obvious. We're like, Actually, if you just use the tool I just taught you and lead discussion, have boundaries, make a few people upset, favor your high accountables, like everything we tell you will work. How do we know? The organizations that do it have great results.

Yeah, it's so many good things there. The thing that came to my mind, and it's a simple point, but it's almost— the challenge is it's set up by design because if you're a really good doer, You get things done and then you get rewarded by being a leader. And so you become a leader, which is that evolution. It's getting better at facilitating those discussions and focusing on how we could and opening up that space and holding the center. And we'll get to the tools in a second. We got 2 that are on my mind that are amazing for that. And instead of doing that though, we get back into doing. It's like we get rewarded for jumping in, fixing, being the one that can do it. And I hear it all the time. It's like, I don't know if it was Michael Jordan or something, but it's like I never ask someone to do something I wouldn't do. So it's like it's this whole like I got to be able to do it with you in the trenches for you to respect me as a leader. And I, you know, through you, I am appreciative. It's like I don't even really need to know what you do anymore. My job is to get you out of drama so you in your position are able to do it as effortlessly, as clear as you can. That's what a leader does. And so I don't even really need to know what you're doing now. It helps. And because I am leading, I'm not in there fixing, doing it with you side by side. Now, there's times in crisis we got to do that. Absolutely. That's what we're talking about. But it's 98% of the times we want to do what we can to stay out of that. So then people are free to really, one, have their accountability for doing it. They're not like, oh, well, you're always looking over my shoulder and changing what I did. And it's like they have their space, you're in your space, and you're mentoring along the way. So I feel like that That step's not being taken. And it's safe though, because like you said, you're back into what you've always known. So you feel like you're adding a lot of value. But as a leader, that's not adding much value. That is back into— we would have kept you in the other position in that case.

Back to subtracting value. There's this whole thing that, you know, and that's out there, and, and that saying that, um, you know, don't ask somebody to do what you aren't willing to do was About asking women to always take notes or asking women to make your damn coffee. It was a way that people started to say, hey, you're being super sexist. Like, don't ask me as your colleague, a fellow VP, to take notes.

Yeah. And at that time, so helpful. Yes.

When you look at economics, it is a ridiculous use of resources to say, you know, that That I shouldn't ask Tori, our fabulous assistant, to do anything I'm not willing to do. If you find me setting up my own calls when I could be out keynoting, you need to performance manage me and say, that is a horrible level of discernment that you have with what I'm paying you, how to do your time. Because if you are into doing and you are not a frontline or midline position, And you're into doing, that is one expensive piece of work, right? Would I pay somebody my hourly rate to go make coffee? That's horrible management. No, I would justify if we had to hire somebody to do that. But the other thing is, if you know how to do it, that's all ego stuff. If you know how to do it, then that's outdated. If you're still believing something that you heard 20 years ago, Modernize your leadership because the ego holds onto things far beyond their usefulness. And, and that's why we have to get good at impermanence. In my book, Life's Messy, Live Happy, I said, you've got to transcend duality and impermanence. You have to be good at receiving what's coming and letting go what no longer serves. And this whole, I'm gonna do so that you don't hate me and you don't— rather than lead and teach you goals, rules, and procedures, I'm gonna I'm gonna do. If you have an issue come up and you know what to do, and you're about to do it, if it's that easy, that work should be automated. Oh. That work should be standardized. That work should be processed. If you, in your simple mind as a human, are like, oh, I know what to do, that's already archaic. And applying humans to most work needs to be Questioned if it could be automated or if it could be standardized. A lot of people are so worried about AI ruining us. It will, because we aren't doing the work of leading. We're resisting what's coming in, and we should be stepping up and saying, wait a minute, let's have heavy collaborative thinking on how we use this for good, not evil, and how we set some boundaries. In there. And again, it goes back to an underskilled issue, because what I see is in the name of inclusivity, which I'm all for, people try and collaborate and include people on a horrible foundation. There's no non-negotiables. And so they're like, they're like, well, I don't know if I should just reach out to that other plant, and let me bring it to my team. And the team's like, well, here's what I think, and here's what I think, and here's what I— and there's no framework. And instead of saying, okay, we're about to collaborate, but here's the foundation: buy-in on the strategy, not optional. Post-decision, been decided. It's not unethical. It's not immoral. Like everybody, buy-in's a verb. And then clarity. So you got buy-in, and then you got clarity. Clarity is we are— it's post-decision. We're in a to-be-informed role, and our whole focus is to focus on how we could. So when the first person speaks up and it's like, well, we've reached out to them 10 times, And I've been here since '89 and it never works. I'm like, I'm not sure you understand the non-negotiables. So it needs to work. And so I'm wondering how we make it work. And inviting—

that's what you signed up for, to figure out how to make it work. You're stepping out of what your role is, your, your whole job description. And if you really looked at it, is how to make this work. That's your— that's the whole thing you signed up for. That's what I see a lot.

I see so many people need our services, want our services, have budget for our services. And so the senior team is like, yeah, this will go first. They aren't trying to do it to anybody else. We want these services. And then they're like, but first I need to get the buy-in of my team. And so they go, and a year later they still don't have leadership services because they're still talking about, you know, do you think it's priority? And you think it's what we need? And shouldn't we look elsewhere? And as a CEO, it's okay to say We are underskilled as leaders. You're all struggling. You're asking for priorities to be set. You're asking for me to do all this work. You're in the weeds. Like, we're not functioning well. So the need— foregone conclusion. Evidence says leadership development is super important. Companies that use it do far better with everything— diversity, inclusivity, results. And this isn't a democracy to say, like, which company does your cousin work for that they want to come in? It is to say, we looked at the evidence. These 2 or 3 vendors have really great results. And so let's talk about how this would work in our organization. And it resorts back to, well, we couldn't really get people off and it's too much. We got a lot going second quarter. And I don't think— I think some people will be mad.

One department and yeah.

Because they couldn't get in. And then the age-old, like, how are we going to, like, measure that it will be better? I mean, I know it will improve, but like, how are we really going to measure it? And all of a sudden, they take a simple concept, like, would you like to use your training budget to support your leadership? And they make it into the most unfigureoutable proposition. Like, we don't even know how that would work. Yeah. It's like, nope. All you needed to do as a consultant is say, what do we need to keep in mind, internal consultant, to have this work? And then buy-in, what are you going to need to do to make it work? And then what's the best way to move forward? And, and let's make that happen. But I find right now, the ego is so sophisticated, and it's taking some of our challenging circumstances and giving everyone food for why they can't. And true leadership is transcending that and saying, let's look at how we could.

Yeah. And there's 2 things I have on my mind. There is like the what and the how I mentioned at the beginning. The what is, you know, you said CEO or senior team decided we're doing leadership training. The next, the to be informed role, is so let's talk about how we can do this given the risks or your concerns. So a lot of people bring up like seven reasons why we can't: too busy, you know, busiest time of year, whatever it is. We like to get that visual in a tool we'll link called negative brainstorming. It's just a little bit of a math problem. So the what's decided, our role is how we could, given some of the challenges we know in. Finding time, getting these sessions set up. I'm sticking with your example. So you just list those issues. And a lot of people feel very validated that they pointed out all the issues for why we can't. In this tool, because it's visual, you cross out issues for risks. You had everyone there in dialogue thinking about it together. And then you just say, what's the probability that what you're concerned about will actually happen? So it's like, what if on Friday there's a tornado and we have to go on a tornado drill and we're out of the— how are we going to do a virtual? It's like, what's the probability there's gonna be a tornado in DC? Well, it's low. What's the impact on the training initiative if it does happen? High. But we just got a little more clarity that that's like a 1 in 7 million case. So why worry about that as a way to stop this what from happening? And as you do a tool like that, that's why all of our tools are visual. It simmers everyone down and it shows it's doable. It shows in the end we have like 3 things that are high probability. High impact on the success of this? And then it just becomes, what are 3 or 4 things we can do? And everyone's got a plan, we get commitments. And so our tools help us simmer down that fear of anything, you know, new or something that we're trying to do, but we're into the how. But like you said, someone raises their hand and, and gets into that. It's like someone raises their hand, they're like, why wasn't I consulted? Or why are we even doing this in the first place? It's like, this meeting's not even about that. It's about the how, not the what. And I feel like a lot of people are trying to jump up to the what, or then we have higher-level leaders jumping into the how. So it's like everybody's in the wrong lane or the wrong part of that, and that's where it gets really messy. We're out of our, our core responsibility, back to you're over-responsible for someone else's work, under-responsible for yours.

Yes. Well, and I would like to call people up to really examine the times Examine what comes out of their mouth. People are like, why wasn't I consulted? Translates to, I'm underskilled in improv and planning for the future and collaboration. And so I needed to be consulted so I can stop any new stuff from coming in and control it and shape it to where my ego is comfortable and I'm still skilled. Like, people are being very protective about what they're willing to do and what they're skilled to do. I work with a lot of people who, when I ask them why they want my coaching, they say they're burned out. And that is true. I'm not, I'm not saying there's no burnout out there. But when we look at their burnout, did it happen to them or did they have a part in it? It's profound because they're burned out. That's the end result, the feeling. But it always goes back to underskilled, underskilled in boundary setting, underskilled in handling messy conversations, underskilled in solutioning with others and asking for help and setting limits and having non-negotiables. And when we skill them up in those areas, same job, they feel good about it. And in fact, I'm just kicking off, I think next month, an incredible nurse leadership program with the organization Sonova. And this is for nurse leaders of All levels, actually, as healthcare leaders of all levels. We talk a lot about healthcare, but we have other people that are non-nursing in there. And if you're interested in that, Synova spelled S Y N O V A, and go to their website and look at it. But what we measured was intent to stay in leadership roles before and after reality-based leadership, like intent to leave the field of nursing before and after. And you'll see those results out there. And it was. It was astronomical, the amount of people who stated they were burned out and not gonna stay in a leadership role before the course. And once we skilled them up after the course, they were like, no, I think this job's doable. The job didn't change that much. Now, are there major changes needed in healthcare? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Can we do those changes with everyone in the victim mindset? No. So we need people to get skilled up to go, look, I can handle the core part of my job. And then I'm going to take and collaborate with you on how we need to longer-term change this model. And that's the toggling up where you tap into all your creativity and all your collaborative skills. And so it's a, it's a new way I see people toggle down. And I think it's a trauma response. Like, I have to do it. Fierce independence is a trauma response. But I think it's the ego, what the ego has morphed into. A lot of people, depending on their level, are setting boundaries about what I'm willing to do to try and keep the world out. That's never going to work. That's not a boundary. And a lot of people are talking about what I have to do. And those are so polar extremes. What I'm willing— I'm not willing to do that. It's above my pay grade. Or everything else is I have to do. Like, I've narrowed down my job to things I can't get out of. Like, what?

Well, then you add a layer

of—

you add a layer of, is what I'm willing to do my preference versus the potential of what the organization needs? So if you're underneath in an organization, if that's then mixed with it's, I'm willing to do only my preferences or what I'm comfortable with versus what is needed for the organization, and in that case, patients or our customers, then you're really getting tired because you're focused on just what helps you in maximizing your position. And not even thinking about what this, you know, the organization we work in, what we're trying to do out in the world. So you're really like so far from mission and a lot of things. And that's where, I mean, that gets tiring if that's— and you're playing that defense all day.

Well, and when once we get focused on anything that says to do, we're sunk. You know, what should we do? It's like, ask how. we should do it to great ends. Like, if you want different answers, ask different questions. And so anytime doing comes up in your sentence, it's like prehistoric. It's like you're not modern leading. Like, doing— what should I do? Even when people come to me and they're like, should I stay? Should I go? I'm like, not even the question. What should I do in this situation? No, let's elevate that. Like, how do you want to show up? Like, what are you striving for? What would great look like? Not one of our questions starts with like, What you should do in this situation.

Yeah.

And I think that is, um, is so important. If you're listening to this podcast and you're going to extremes in your mind, welcome to your ego. Because a lot of people are like, so I'm just going to tell people no when they come and ask for— not what we said. Say yes and elevate. Say yes, I can help you right now. And then let's work on making sure that you know how to handle these things in the future. Yes, and exit. Love people up first, then call them up. The answers really are simple, in front of you, and part of our philosophy. So just notice when you listen to our podcast, if you're getting into— but Cy and Alex, you don't understand, our work is so hard. I wish I could validate that for you. I wish I could, but I'm in too many organizations and I see the difference. I say people with the same work do well when they toggle up and implement philosophies and walk through the world skillfully. And I see people in the same situations not do well. The circumstances are the same. The circumstances aren't the reasons you can't succeed. Now, is there pain? Is there tremendously difficult things going on in the world? Absolutely. The sad part is that we're not tending to those, which would be leading. More overmanaging. We're, you know, even if you just look at, um, some of your governing officials, they're down in the weeds overmanaging micro things rather than leading how we can have peace in the world and how we can feed everyone in the world. It's a typical eagle's response to say, not me. I'm the victim here. I would lead, but— But one of the questions I like to have when people are saying like, we can't, And I'm working with the senior team, I'm like, then who can? Like, what? Like, where? Who can? And if they say, well, we can't, then what you're saying is you just outsourced your results to reality. Leadership is the ability to succeed with reality, to impact in spite of reality. That's the core definition of leadership, is to take reality and have impact. Mm-hmm. and mind the development of your people so that they're also impacted and grown by the experience. So leadership, the new leadership competencies, isn't about mastery. It's about mastery and the ability to live in the mystery and to be in the mess and be in the beginner's mind. I don't know. And collaborate on managing the energy, not the work, right? Not asking for opinions, but asking for expertise in how we could. And true leadership isn't about identifying our challenges. It's about transcending those challenges and really leading people in, in a different way.

Yeah. And I, there was a, I want to go back. It's kind of a side pivot back to what we started in, but you had said, I've been talking about this 30 years. And in my book, I think we're going to call it How We Could or something. I'm excited about, I was writing on goals, roles, procedures, this elevating up as a leader and getting out of the weeds and procedures and tasks. And I'm like, gosh, I can't figure out how to write this. So I opened up your first book and this is from blogs from like 30 years ago and it's right there said really well. And it's like there was a quote that just nailed me though. It was— I'm going to screw it up. I should pull it out. But it's like if you're clear on goals, like as a leader, your team has organizational goals, how they fit in your departmental goals, and then they're clear on their roles, which is are you a decision maker in this situation, more of a consultant or that to-be-informed role? And then it said, then brace yourself. You actually put brace yourself. You don't have to get involved in every procedure. And you put brace yourself. It's like you— and that freaks people out. It's like, wait a minute, how is it going to get done? And do I have to trust people? And are they going to? And it's like literally— and then you said 80% of your time as your managing director or, you know, getting higher up, it's— you spend 80% of your time like a broken record. Here's our goals. Here's kind of the why. Here's our role. Just so you know, we're not going back on this. We're moving forward. And then you guys, we're giving you that.

By the way, you have geniuses working for you. They'll figure it out.

You, you figure it out as long as you're clear on goal and role. I'll trust you're going in the right direction. And that's the boundaries. That's the trust. That's, that's letting people have accountability and responsibility for what they are doing each day, which is empowering. And,

and it really is engaging.

It's engaging. And I just thought that was so funny, like 80% of your time, and whether that's an actual like number you'd still sign on, but It's true because most people are spending 80 to 90% of their time down in the weeds trying to execute with their teams. And it's, it's that missing the elevation there. I'm sorry, you just got me cracking up that I'm trying to rewrite this thing. And it's like, what the heck are you doing, Alex?

Well, and the ego is, is so funny because the ego is like, besides that, but it's got to be something new. So when I said, if you know what to do, and it's archaic and prehistoric. That's in the, you know, the work. There are universal principles that are in Reality-Based Leadership that were in multiple religions and philosophies and communal communities. Those universal principles we've been saying for thousands of years. And those still ring true. And people are like, yeah, but besides that. And if you just settle in and practice some of these principles, people are like, how do I engage people? I'm like, goals, rules, and procedures. How do I hold people accountable? I'm like, you can't, but you can define non-negotiables. Like, the answer continues to be, it's right here. But the ego is like, can't be that simple. Um, you know, it's gotta be fancy and clever. The ego's the part of us that wants to get fancy and clever when it's really just that simple. Um, yeah, but what about all those other people? The ego wants you to believe that you're skilled, they are not. Mm-hmm. You know, just like the ego wants you to stay in mastery and not mystery, we want to have impact in challenging circumstances. But the other part of growth and development for all of us is also to allow your team to be impacted and grown by the experiences. That's messy because they won't be ready for the next if you shield them from the, the evolution that comes by messily having to figure out and struggle with The present. And struggle isn't a symptom of poor leadership. And I think we've really gotten, you know, sensitive. Like, I'm not clear, your leadership sucks. And it's like, oh, I love when you're in lack of clarity. It's called cognitive dissonance. So talk to me, talk your way into clarity. You know, because a lot of people, their buy-in is so finicky. I'll buy in as long as you make it completely clear, and then you tell me exactly what And you intervene anytime it gets hard. And then, by the way, I hate my job. You don't trust me, and I don't feel fulfilled, and I could do so much more for this company. That's like the sucker's choice.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, here's what I will guarantee you. I'll honor you and treat you with respect and be a great thought partner and challenge the heck out of you and love you while you struggle and try and walk behind you and accumulate your lessons so I can give them back to you so that you have a command philosophy to go through the world with. That's modern leadership. Modern leadership isn't, let's play soccer like 5-year-olds where 25 of us come together to solve a problem that, given the type of thinking we're using, is unsolvable because all you can do is throw more people at it. And it's always a staffing issue. It's like, I know we have staffing challenges, but what we have is challenges of control. Like you brought up decision-making. Once I figured out That I'm hardly ever the decision maker and I founded this company hardly ever. Like, and sometimes—

Talk more about that. I think that's, it's really like important. And what are your thoughts on that? I just—

That, you know, people are like, so I live in Mexico and I just like live the life of Riley, so to speak. Like I'm, I show up once in a while and do keynotes and I probably, you know, by all purposes, if somebody looked from the outside in, I underlead my people. And I actually had this conversation at dinner the other night. They're like, what do you do? And how do you lead a company like virtually? And like, we see you hiking an awful lot. Like, how does this even work? And I'm like, I spent so many years setting up philosophy, strategy. Like, if I'm not around, think goals, rules, and procedure. That's what leadership does. You, you, you get those mental processes embedded in the mind of the people, and then they make good choices. In the rare event that they don't, We learn from it and revisit it and continuously improve it. Like, if you have those foundations in place, those are ageless. That there's so little decision-making I actually have to do because my people know the non-negotiables. They know our philosophy. Very rarely they escalate something to me and it becomes my decision only because it's maybe my capital, my personal capital. Since I'm majority owner in the company, or it is, um, has something to do with me. And like, do you want to leave Mexico to travel to Anchorage, Alaska in the middle of winter and do a keynote? And I would, Anchorage, I'd be there in a minute. I love you guys. But—

Well, can I say, I want to add from being number 2, but also starting like as an intern in this thing, like you, I mean, I can't even tell you how every meeting you started with goals. Like, like every meeting before we got into what to do or even starting that conversation, it was like, So just so you know, like, I can just say it right now, we are game-changing voice on the biggest stages with a lasting presence and a small footprint. Now that's kind of our goal. So game-changing voice, for those of you like not— this is just give you some real tangible— is like content. Our words matter. Our content, the way we write it, like everything we put out on social, everything we do is RBL, and it's got to be really intentional. Then the biggest stages is either big keynotes, big trainings, conferences, or virtual, you know, podcasts.

Yeah, big platforms.

And then with a lasting presence is all this content we put out in our campaigns, in our virtual training, everything we can do to stay in your companies in a free way.

It's

a state of learning. Just sticking around in ways that meet people where they're at in your company. And then a small footprint means everything you're trying to do, is this the most automated way, most efficient way? Is the right person working on it? So that is like drilled into our team, at least the team that's still around. And I remember we had 11 people and we had like 3 people resisting that. Now it's down to like 4 with a few external vendors. And like you said, we've always— we make the same amount of money. So it's like, it's really interesting how once— and you never talk about procedures. Like you say, I need everything on the system, HubSpot.

Yeah.

My few non-negotiables is call everybody back in 24 hours because you've been doing it 30 years. You're like, this is what the evidence Says to run a good speaking company, and then once you clarify that, I just you just go to sleep at night because you're trusting the process and your non-negotiables. And it

you just metrics. Every once in a while, call you guys up and I go, "How's accounts receivable going?" Like I saw a metric come up, and I'm not saying I'm the perfect leader. I'm telling you, you can lead in effortless ways. Your ego's like, "Oh, but size speaking business is small," blah blah blah. I I ran. Hospitals this way. I ran clinics this way, and I love that anyone in my company could be in Alex's box right now on video and tell you those four things. And by the way, we are lazy. We haven't changed that strategy. What you just heard was such fire content when we came up with it. It was almost inspired content that I think we've operated under that mainstay. What 10 years? 12 years?

8 or 10 years.

Because it's ever-living, it's evergreen. And I know this might be overwhelming. You're like, how do I get from there to, you know, from here to there? Read the books, implement the tools. It's super simple. This is not unfigureoutable. It is, um, we don't have to burn out. There is a solution. It is figureoutable. And, and it's really that space between where you're at now and where you want to be. You've got to work that small space because we get so over-responsible for what we can't impact or what isn't ours. And that, by definition, gets us under-responsible for what we can do. And when we're under-responsible for what we can do, with lack of accountability, we don't realize that we're the ones keeping us stuck. And this isn't blame. It's not even extreme ownership. It is just saying, That we really have to find our place of impact, get clear about what's really happening, understand how our mind works and how the ego's playing us. And another skill set for new leaders is the ability to begin again, over and over. My team, I would let them go for a while and they would be like way out there, and I would just say, I'm gonna grab a marker and And I'm going to recenter us on a model, and then we're going to come back and we're going to have a different discussion. I didn't tell them what. I didn't make the decision for them. I just said, a lot of you are doing a really good job focused on why we can't or what's dangerous out there. I want you focused on, given that, how we could. That simple energy management. Then I would sit back and not speak again in the meeting. That's what leaders do.

Yeah. I know we'll wrap up here for this one. I think we've given a lot, but the last thing I think I think with, if you keep that, like you said, goals, roles, procedures, one simple model, is it's easy for someone to say, oh my gosh, if I could finally get a leader to do this. And that's where the ego goes. You can be the one as an individual contributor. I've been that where once you have the model, you're like, so where are we off here? Goals? Are people just not accepting or are they not hearing the goals? And then are we choosing the wrong role for what the situation merits? Like we're wishing we were consulted when we weren't. We're wishing we could make all the decisions when we're not there yet. And then is it— are we using really unsustainable procedures or is something not automated that's a huge manual workaround that gets us stuck in procedures all the time? And so as an individual contributor, I just live by that starting point and just say what's out of clarity. And then I can even bring that up in the meeting. Like, that's how you step into a universal truth, a universal principle that always adds clarity, and you can add that which is missing. So I found that freedom side as an individual contributor, because I'm not always in the leadership role, is you can be the one that kind of calls a timeout metaphorically and starts a conversation with that. And a lot of people come along like, that was helpful. So I don't know if that is a way to bring this to the shared accountability piece as an individual contributor. If you're wishing for your leader or others to do this,

you

can step right into it.

Yeah. I also think I have a hack to this whole thing. If I'm really digging in and like, I want to be defining the goals, I want to be in on like I want to advocate for what my role should be. And I want— I, I, I, ego, ego, ego. What I found is in most cases, I can just— if you want to quietly quit, here's a place to quietly quit. Quietly quit all your opinions. Quietly quit demanding to be the decision maker. Quietly quit demanding to be consulted or involved. Quietly quit all of those things and get super skilled at being informed and then carrying out and executing with genius in your expertise where it won't have impact to the community negatively. And it, it can be shaped to be culturally appropriate. And it can be like, many of us are demanding to be decision-makers and to be consulted. And what I did with that whole model, when I got really sophisticated, I'm like, do I even need to put any effort into this? And it went from control disguised as impact or involvement. And once I was able to work on myself and say, you know, can I trust my people? Do I really need to be involved in that? A lot of stuff I don't need to be consulted even. I don't need to be the decision maker. I just need to be informed so I can adjust accordingly. And that sounds really passive, but that is the most active role. That is a very centered role. It is the role of the best facilitators and the best developers where we can take a situation and not solve it and not orchestrate it, not direct it, but we can facilitate and broker and And teach and guide and use what's in front of us to move forward. And so for me, a lot of people learn goals, roles, and procedures— look it up, it's in all of our books— as a model, but then they overwork their part in that model. And what I would love for you to do is before— learn the model and then get back and ask, like, what is the lowest level I can play in this and still be helpful and effective? Yes. What is the least— the most invisible role I can play in this? And that's when things get effortless and free you up to do amazing things. That's Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek, is he said, get uninvolved in half the stuff you think you're so special and you need an opinion about. Like, he's just like, no, it will happen with or without you. Get involved in the execution of it. So.

I bet that wasn't on people's bingo card at the end here to say, learn the model and then get clear on it and then back out as fast as you can. And yeah, I bet that wasn't on their card, but that's a— I think that's a great way to end it with that. Just, it's like an assignment for self-reflection and also then trying to execute on that. And we'd love to hear some feedback either on LinkedIn or straight to our team on what you're thinking of this podcast.

Absolutely. But go back to Reality-Based Leadership, read the chapter on goals, roles, and procedures. Clear on it. But I tell you what, leadership is not as hard as y'all are making it. Seriously. Be well. We will be back with another conversation where we probably won't know where it goes when we begin, but it usually is pretty helpful. If you're loving the podcast, because we started anew, we like to do that, subscribe and review. Those stars are unfortunately important to the algorithm. We're not trying to get a whole audience that doesn't understand RBL. We want you to bring RBL to your teams. We want you to spread the word to the next most willing and hopefully share this podcast with them so they know that there's a lot of love and help out there. So be well, everybody.

See you soon.