Careful To Not Weaponize Reality-Based Leadership With Your Team

Welcome, leaders, to another episode of the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast, where I, Cy Wakeman, join Alex Dorr, our people evolution expert, and, and we talk about topics that we're learning about as we're out teaching and preaching Reality-Based Leadership. And what we want this podcast to really be is after you've learned some of the basic content from our books and all of perhaps a session or following us on LinkedIn, when you have the content down, how do you really become become a daily user, a daily practitioner. And so we try and pick up topics where we can help you just go deeper in your practice. So the topic we've chosen today is really how to ensure that you're using what we teach in Reality-Based Leadership in the spirit that we present it in. Because a lot of people jump into calling people up and they forget there's this part called loving people up, and that we're dealing with humans, and it's still all about curiosity and compassion and kindness and love. So in their exuberance, we sometimes find people getting off track. And Alex, I think Alex is the one that brought this topic up. And I think that, you know, just in your recent travels, you have experienced some ways that people might have gotten out over their skis a little bit.

That's well said. Yeah, I think the word we use sometimes is don't weaponize the philosophy. And we acknowledge this This can happen to anybody's work, and you know it'll be content on empathy, and all of a sudden empathy is getting used for emotional blackmail, and it could be the just the most straight, you know, narrow topic that's so benevolent, and it gets you know used for evil, and people use the harshest part of it. But yeah, I was it was just a session. We had a great session, and after in a follow-up call, one of the individuals said someone was just so excited about some of the ideas, and not that all of our ideas are new, but it might have dusted off something they knew to be true. And, and they got all fired up and they went right into the next call with their team and it was about a change. And they said, you know, if you're not on board, then basically no third option. You're either in or you're out. And, and some of you that are really familiar with our work is that might be the 21st coaching idea. I think one of the more common.

Yeah.

Yeah, tons of like invitations. And that's really a conversation about buy-in. Like if something's already decided, it's like, You know, can you at least lean into the spirit of it? Like, can you say yes to the what and we'll talk about the how? But the main idea here is someone got really excited about the philosophy, had some good insights, and then they took probably one of the harshest parts of Reality-Based Leadership, and that was the first thing they tried to apply. And, you know, and while the spirit might have been, they thought there, but I think it wasn't received the best and it was maybe some other approaches. So, I wanted to talk about, it seems like Maybe every 2 years, and I might have a podcast on this way back, maybe Cy does, we have to resurface and check in if there's any other ways we're seeing the philosophy being used for evil, not good, just to keep us all, even ourselves, you know, looking at are we over-rotating on some sort of, of place that's not helpful with it. So that's what I wanted to start with is just talk about some of these common patterns we see. So I thought I'd send some out there, Cy, maybe you add to it and just see what What, um, what you're in the spirit for. But, uh, one of the ones that, that came up first as I was taking some notes here is once— and I remember my first time really being like, that was awesome. I think I heard you sigh for the first time. 1-hour talk, talked about, you know, BMW driving as a word for venting and accountability. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is good stuff. And then I immediately started thinking about all the other people in my life that don't know this stuff. And I couldn't wait to like judge them instead of helping them. And so I see that often is you'll hear it in sessions. Someone's like, gosh, this was really good stuff in a break. But if only, you know, Molly were here, that would really be the change we need.

Or Lisa, or is Lisa even going to get this?

Yeah.

It's like, no, I'm good. But you know who really needs this? Yeah.

Yeah, I got all this down and just nobody else gets this. So anything you'd add to that side? That's the first one that I hear often. And again, we're there to help, not judge. But I've found ways to try and, you know, shape that conversation when that happens.

It's so true. And I hear it, it also is work of the ego. And it's how a lot of people take information. They take in information to say, I've got one more, you know, fact and point, an expert to quote, to manipulate others or to change others or to impact the situation. And the point of all of our work is that you need to get skilled in making the invitations instead of just taking our work and going out and telling. And, and how you know that you're in ego is you'll hear something we say and you're like, aha, I was right, they need to buy in, I'm gonna go tell them, buy in or not. When you hear yourself go, oh, that's good, I need to tell these people, you're in ego. Oh. Instead of, you know, oh wow, that's, you know, a good point to lead to, and let me get myself there, and then let me make some invitations. Because the power of a leader, of a modern leader, is not what you tell people, it's what you get them thinking about. It's their own self-reflection, but it begins with your self-reflection. So when I see people doing what I call skimming— they're grabbing one-liners from us to go use on somebody else— I'm like, time out. You know, don't weaponize that. They've done that a lot with resiliency, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, are you resilient or not? And I'm like, that's actually mass abandonment. Like, you know, suck it up, buttercup, and go figure it out. The organization has readiness and individuals have resiliency. And the sweet spot is when there's high levels of readiness, but a few things are missed and we count on resiliency from our people. And if we see a trend where people have to be heroic and resilient, we want to bring that into process improvement. to increase our readiness. Like these, when you hear a 45-minute keynote, they're great topics, but before you go use them, you need to evolve. And a lot of people keep the same place of evolution and just use this as more ammunition to be like, see, I was right. Yeah. And Cy Wakeman agrees with me. I will never, ever, foster or bolster up your rightness, because that just leads to righteousness and lack of learning and, you know, trying to use our work to, you know, force other people out of power control. And our work is to help make cleaner invitations and invite the most evolved part of people to the table and to have the most evolved conversations. And, um, to realize we all have that humanness. So that resiliency is another one I hear weaponized a lot.

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. And, um, you know what, you, you actually hit on another one. I think I had this right after, so you might know the process of how the ego evolves through this. But it was, uh, I've heard a few groups who work with this in the past, they're like, you know, they do that Sy Wakeman says, and then they say the quote instead of like coaching or inviting or using, you know, a tool to look at the situation. It's like, well, Cy Wakeman says your circumstances aren't the reasons you can't succeed, so the reality in which you must succeed. And instead of like validating the experience and saying, let's look at this, maybe there's a way to frame this up so we can find a place to have impact and we kind of reflect on it together in thought partnership. You just throw a quote on a very unpreferred reality with maybe not validating the experience or the feeling. So it just is like a boom, you know? And, you know, maybe the quote in some ways is there and correct, but just it's never going to be helpful. In that tone. It also reminds me of a lot of people love from RBL, your stress isn't from your reality, it's from the story you make up about reality. And I remember when I first learned this, the first time after I heard that and my wife started to like, she was after work just talking about something, kind of venting. I'm like, oh my gosh, she does not know. It's just her story. I told her like, this is your story. It's not really what happened. And I'll tell you what, that backfired fast because another thing I talk about is like resources and our duty as a leader is a little different in the workplace than back kind of at home with a family member, spouse. And so there's a little bit different responsibilities and that technique will never work. So I'm kind of mixing like the Alex says, you know, this. Yeah. And so you use the quote as like your attack mechanism to try and prove a point. And it's similar to what you said, but, uh, I, I've seen a lot of that. Like if it has a, One group I had, if it had a molecule of Cy Wakeman's philosophy behind it, it caused like an anaphylactic shock. And I was like, that's going to be tough because a lot of what we talk about is universal principles of happiness and well-being. And if anything that sounds like that causes an anaphylactic shock in your organization, we're going to be off track. You know, is that— are you trying to Cy Wakeman or Alex, you know, Dohr me, RBL me? And sometimes that's a tough one. You're in a bit of a conundrum because it's like, Yeah. This is a universal principle about stressful thinking. But if it sounds like that, you're saying, don't psy-wake me. And so I find that is a tough one if that starts happening, because it was probably already weaponized from the start and people now are kind of reactive to it.

Well, and, and people are trying to, um, they have polarized the discussion into I'm right and I have another expert to throw at you. And, you know, it's right versus wrong. And when people decide they're right, they get righteous. And when you're righteous, you stop learning and you close your mind and close your heart, which is the anti-definition of, you know, leadership or humanity. And so a lot of times, you know, when we talk about like spiritual principles, a lot of people talk about dogma or deed. And dogma is when I go out and tell you what my preferred spiritual, you know, book or teaching is. I tell you in the name of you're wrong and here's what's right. And deed is that I interact with you in a way that extends the invitation that we could look at this with broader meaning. And so a lot of people go out telling, it's automatically gonna backfire. And I always say like, leave my name out of this. Like,

Yeah.

I'm telling, I happen to be the person telling you about this technique, but there's thousands of other people out there that have been talking about these techniques for thousands of years. Know that when you're going all Cy Wakeman on somebody, that you're trying to control them. These techniques are not about trying to control people because you just punch the ego in the face and the ego doubles down. You know, we often talk in our talks like if a 2-year-old has a pen and you don't want them, not that your employees are 2-year-olds, that you don't want them to have the pen.

What are you saying, Cy? What are you saying?

Yeah, a really less than modern strategy. If you know nothing about child development, if you're under skilled. Only a rookie would come in and say, nice pen, to a 2-year-old and then try and grab it because they shouldn't have it. That is just going to, you know, game on. And you're going to be like, they didn't even care about the pen, but now you've got them doubled down. And if you know how the world works and how the mind works, a better invitation is to say, nice pen. Um, you know, you certainly are in possession of that right now. And I'm just wondering You know, have you seen this cool phone case? And then you leave people the choice. And a lot of people find this colorful phone case, which is relief from suffering, much more enticing than a pen they've been carrying around for 5 years, right? If you're a 2-year-old, maybe for 5 minutes. And but you're forcing them with a choice to make where they can't really manage both. You can't judge and help at the same time. So it isn't telling people to stop judging, even though that's one of our mantras that we remind you of. It is saying, hey, let me give you a choice. And the invitation in the event that you want to drop this and pick this up, it might work better for you. And a lot of people can't do that if they're toggled down and they're just searching the world for how to make a better case about why people should do what they say. That's not even leadership anymore. Leadership is what you get people thinking about, not what you tell them. And when I find people weaponize my work, it's because they had a motive and they're shopping for for experts to pile on and build an army with. And I usually drop, you know, my end of the tug-of-war rope there because that's just, it's not gonna work and it's taking our work out of context.

Yeah, it's so well said. You know, it reminds me, it's a little bit of a different pivot, but one of the development points in my career, there's a workshop that you, you know, you let the team go to and it was, you know, 20 or so people there and people would share their ideas. And I think we were talking about change one time And I just heard like 4 responses that were really about like enabling their teams, slowing it down until— and I'm like, but in my head, you know, our stuff is like the change is going to go. We got to get ready for what's next or have people step up and be ready, willing, and able. And I hadn't spoken up much and I spoke up and it was just a little bit of what if this is something we thought about instead? And I'll never forget someone after it said, did anybody have that recorded? And it was really just a statement on some of our change ideas from RBL, but I said a lot of we, and I'm trying to write down, in our research, I was saying that. And one of the facilitators after, kind of our spiritual coach, said, Alex, that was a great response, but I'm just wondering, why do you always say we and in our research and we've looked at? He's like, do you believe this? Like, are these your thoughts? Are they— and I thought about that a lot, and I think I was doing that. This is pretty far along in my career. Yeah. You know, in the same way, it was like, it was like I was kind of saying without saying Cy Wakeman says or RBL says, I was saying we in our research instead of like, you know, I believe this. And, and I do believe this, you know, it's been in my experience doing this 10 years for my own life on the things I was saying about change. And I wonder if there's a bit of like a confidence thing in there, or maybe I was trying to use it to be like, all these responses are nonsense, you know, or I don't know what it was. But, uh, that was a big moment for me. It's like, Some of it could be you're trying something out and you're missing a bit of confidence, so you want to stamp an expert on it. Or you might be using it for motive. And maybe I was doing a little bit of all, but I remember that I had it in my notes. Very interesting thing.

When we do invoke this or invoke that, at times we are trying to one-up. Like, I know that just doesn't play out in the research. Telling people they're wrong or they're uninformed is hardly ever a great conversation starter. And that's why the people I work with and really do executive coaching with over a period of time that really want to bring this into their organizations, I want them to private label this. They think it's a compliment. And, you know, at times it is where they're like, oh, so I just went Cy Wakeman on them. And I'm like, well, as long as you did that without invoking my name and you use the gentle, loving tools that we use to invite people to think differently, you can do that. But what I encourage people to do is to private label What seems useful in your leadership philosophy from our work and from many other people's work, I mean, that really was the power of the concept that was introduced years ago called situational leadership, is don't do dogma, which is preaching your belief and proof. Do deed, which is informed by your belief and proof. And it's very different to have somebody come and use dogma on you, like you are, you know, a sinner and a bad person And you should repent immediately. And, and it's differently for somebody to say, gosh, whenever I'm around that leader, I just really feel relaxed and I reflect. And it just seems like we find new ways forward. And so I think it's just such a topic because skill-based training is so appropriate right now. If you wanna learn AI and you learned prompts and you learn like how to best interact and consult with generative or chat AI. And leadership is about evolving. That's why we go away from development. Development is teaching you, say this, don't say that. It's skill-based. Leadership is about evolution. And it is about you being evolved by what you're learning so that you can move through a messy world more skillfully. So a lot of people want to, you know, take away the mess of the world. I'm like, good luck with that. Mm-hmm. Or they want to develop the skills so that when I talk to people, they'll do what I want. I'm like, none of that is relevant for today. It's all about evolution. How am I changed by what I'm learning from Reality-Based Leadership and every other place, right? And then how can I walk through the world more differently? And for me, a lot of times it doesn't even come from business knowledge. I read a lot of poetry. I read a lot of spiritual books. Like, How can I evolve, grow my wisdom so I can walk through a messy world more lovingly and more generously? And that's the part that we taught leaders. You come to class, what are your 3 takeaways? What are you gonna do differently? What line are you gonna use? That's where development has really— you know, it's not that it's all bad, but it really has taken us to, here's something to use on others. And we hope that Reality-Based Leadership is, here's how to walk through the world differently. And then as you interact differently with others, you're making a very different invitation and you can co-create something pretty amazing together. But a lot of people come into our sessions with a development mindset. I'm gonna learn, you know, how to hold a meeting differently. Yes, our tools are great resources for your meetings, but it's not just that you learned the 5 meeting things to have an agenda and, you know, Talk about what we're gonna carry forward. It's not to-dos, it's to-bes. It's ways to be differently in the world. And by being differently, you will do something differently. You know, a lot of people are like, I wanna be a better leader. And one time in my life, I'm like, I wanna be a runner. And then you really focus on what do I need to do to get that? And what do I need to have? And it's very shortsighted. So when I decided I wanted to be a runner, I didn't spend much time there and I spent time on, here's all the things I need to do. I need to do fartleks and speed training and weight training and take my own lunch. And I need to have, you know, new shoes and a treadmill and a subscription to Runner's Magazine. And then I had these huge long lists of all the things I need, very complex, hardly figureoutable. I never became a runner. And somebody said, you know what, you focus on what do you need to do and what do you need to have? Hopefully then you'll be. And she said, flip that around. Get really good at being a runner. And you'll realize that what you need to do and what you need to have, those lists get super short. And so she started to work with me and she's like, Mary Wilson was her name. She's like, you know, be a runner. And I'm like, what do you even mean by that? She's like, actually start running. Like go out and condition yourself. And she started working with me and she worked through my limited beliefs. And she's like, we're gonna, you know, do a junk run today. I'm like, how far is that? And she's like, 3 miles. And I'm like, I can't run 3 miles. And she's like, wow, that's a limiting belief. Like, how recent is your data? And I'm like, well, I can't run it fast. And she's like, never a requirement. Like, just listen to yourself. And she said, can you run 1 mile? I go, I could run 1 mile. She goes, great, we're gonna do that 3 times. Like, she wanted to get me out running. And then what I realized after I ran And just built up and started doing marathons is what I needed to have was minimal. Shoes were important and running clothes, which I had bought for years. I had quite the wardrobe that I wore around the house. And all I really needed to do was run, run, rest, rest, and stretch. And you're either running or not. So those two were taken care of and stretching felt good. And so all of us who want to learn like all these leadership things, what do I need? Sorry. What should I say and what should I do? I'm like, I would rather you focus on being and evolving. And then the things you need to memorize, the one-liners, and just get less. And, um, and I think I see that often where people come in a desperate place to, with motive, to what is the right thing to say that I'll really put them in their place or make them see, or that I can be right. And I would rather you just be peaceful and caring and evolving. And then some strategies that we have to modernize, some tools we know that work. And they work not because you're doing things to people. They work because you're helping join people in a thought process that they can reflect on without being told what to do, without, you know, you pulling power over them. You're including them. But the way you're including them is with a good thought process.

That reminds me how you said some of that, Cy, was— I remember coming in after we had like transitioned. You had done some executives and I was doing like seniors and down in a contract. And we're getting to the toolkit sessions. And I did my first one and I was really focused on our tools to like invite them and then leaving the space to say, with this clarity, like what comes to you? Like what would you say there? And it's authentic. And, and this isn't— oh, don't hear this as going at you, but I thought it was interesting— is they go, well, we like Sai's session a little bit better because she was giving us a lot of good scripts and taglines, and here's how you say it. And, and, and I know you go back and forth sometimes. If you're just— someone's like, what would I say here? It's kind of a complex issue, you know. I do that as well. It's like, here's something that you might say that is a starting point there.

Yeah, it's like this.

And they're like, don't give me these scripts. And I'm like, I don't even have that. What did Sai tell you to say? That thing— I want that, you know. So I think it's, uh, You know, and I know you go back and forth and I— yours was coaching, mine was toolkit. So—

Absolutely. In the beginning, we're more instructive to give you like, try this on for size. Here's what it could look like. But what a lot of people do is they stop there. You know, so here's the story. Here's what I said. They stopped there. And it's the private labeling that that's where the work goes, where, you know, um, you know, when I wrote my book, Life's Messy, Live Happy, It was easier to write my other books, to report the research. And, but I had to take a look at events in my life that I thought would be useful to others because they're pretty common events, but I had to process them down to like, what's the invitation? And it can't just be telling the story, or it can't just be saying, if you face this, do this. But even my book publisher was like, well, what's the 3 things they need to do? Like, we're so Stuck in this format. It's a broken learning and development. People are like, people don't use training. It's not working. And we need to double down on making sure they have 3 things they're going to say differently. I'm like, that's so transactional. And we need to get into evolution where it's more transformational. It's like, how will you be evolved by what you just learned today? And Alex, that's what you do such a good job of is like, I'm not going to— we're 2 years into this program. I'm not going to script you. This isn't a training program.

And yours was coaching. This was like toolkit. So let's get you the answer. That's what I was thinking.

Yeah. And all good coaching comes from good questions. Like, don't take my word for it. Like, what, what would you say?

It's funny, last week I didn't even realize this happened, but a guy after individual contributor session, we're just getting the message out there for about a 90-minute session. And one of the first questions was like, so I liked a lot of this, but like, how do I get started? And I was about to shoot out, like, I think I had said like 14 ideas throughout the 90 minutes. That's what I was there for. And I actually, I was trying to read the guy and I turned to a flip chart and I drew a box. And some of you know our Thinking Inside the Box tool, but I said, so your goal is to try out the philosophy. And I was watching to see if he didn't want to be kind of in front of everybody, but he was kind of game. And I said, so what are some of your, like, why you can't even try a single thing I said today? Like in the next, you know, week or so. And he goes, well, what if it doesn't go well? And what if, you know, and he gave like 4 or 5 things. And I saw kind of the organizers being like, because we— I was— I could have given him 14 answers. And it would have been kind of the, what else do you got? What else do you got? Tried that before in 1998, didn't work. And then eventually, it was so funny, we had it there in the constraints or his why we can'ts. And the goal was to try something from RBL. And he was looking at it. And he goes, I guess I could put one of your stickers on the back of my computer. And sure enough, HR comes in and says, no stickers on the computer. We can't start that. So I said, we got to add that as a constraint because you can't have stickers, company policy or something. And so everybody was cracking up, but it's like, and he finally got a couple of ideas. And sure enough, in the silence, his colleague was next to him. She goes, and she gave ideas. So he was reflecting and it was so juicy. And he was about to come up with something. He was almost going to say it. The lady next to him was so uncomfortable with the silence and letting him, you know, kind of think about it a bit. She jumped in and said, "You could do this, this, and this." And I talked to her about it after. I'm like, "Is that the rescue? The great rescue?" So anyway, I don't. This is so random, but it just happened last week where it was like I wanted to tell him, and I caught myself. I said one thing. I go, "Let me let me try this a different way," and he got it. It was really cool.

So that is so cool. Well, and Peter Block, random connection, but wrote Flawless Consulting, and a lot of us want us to be the experts and tell people, and that's one of three concerns. Consulting roles. And if you're the expert, the problem is then everybody's always dependent on you.

Well, it's kind of hands-on.

You're the expert and, um, they're dependent on you. They're not really bought in and they don't really share the results. It's like, you told me to say this and it didn't work. The second, you know, role of that is an extra pair of hands where you come in and, you know, HR gets in that a lot where it's like, um, I'll come in and help you You know, do your performance reviews. I'm not only coming as the expert, but I'm an extra pair of hands. Like, it's kind of an expensive way to get work done. And, you know, you're always kind of in that reactive state. And then there's the value-add, which is where we collaborate and I feed you and you grow, and then you're, you know, self-functioning and capable of that going forward. And I think a lot of people want us to be the experts. And instead, I want us to be, yes, we'll be the experts for a little bit, but we've got to leave people off. And now that you've heard this, how will you marry up to this and how will you incorporate it? And our business readiness pyramid, if you read the book, Bold, No Ego, has every stage is leaders offer something and then they make a call to greatness where people meet them with shared accountability, offer shared accountability. And when we do that to leaders in our sessions, they become very uncomfortable. They're almost mad at us. They're like, well, we paid you the big bucks. to come here. And I'm like, I have answers. I just think it would be better if you tried this on for size and you had answers. So

yeah. Yeah. Well, I know we've covered a lot. Is there any others that— I think I'm trying to see if I have any others. We've said kind of the slogans. Any others that you see out there that might be ways it gets used a bit for when you're excited about it for evil, or it might trip people up? You've covered a lot of ground.

Concrete examples. I just know for those of you using reality-based leadership, if you find yourself emotive, like, I'm gonna use a slogan to, you know, build an army and show that I am right and I have experts behind— like, if that's your motive, stop. And do yourself a favor and get fluent in our stuff first so that when you lead with it, you're not telling, you're actually utilizing the strategies that we offer.

Yeah, I— oh, you got me thinking. Another time I once heard, it was like we had gone through a long day and someone's like, it just seems like if we just used RBL, we'd have none of these problems. And it's a little bit what you said, is you're trying to say it's the only way. And I felt the audience kind of like, you know, shiver a bit. This was a, a, you know, pretty high-up leader that said that. And I think our ideas can get the conversation started. It's one way. But I love how you've said in this conversation, all ways are great. What we often say is if you're using a tool, make it visual so the ego's not verbal dialogue and there's no— there's all ambiguity. But if there's other visual tools that help get people looking at the same problem clearly, so we have all great minds focused on what's reality, use them. Yeah. And if one of our tools sounds like one that's working for you, you know, keep that. And that's what I often say is like, these are just some ideas that we've seen are best, but as long as they're visual, they end with who doing what by when. And we get the ego, you know, we get out in front of the ego so we can reflect on it together. We can thought partner, use them all. And I love that you're reminding us of that, is that there's not one way to do this. We need all these great philosophies to come together because that situational piece is important.

Absolutely. We're not here to say it's the way. That's dogma. We're here to interrupt thinking for you to better understand Anyway, that would move the needle away from why we can't to how we could, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and that's really the key. And, um, would invite you to use many different philosophies, but before you do that, any philosophy that comes your way, if you're using it from a motive position, you're using it to impact others rather than to first evolve yourself so that you can move through and make better invitations. So are you inviting or changing behavior? And, you know, I love poetry. David Whyte talks about, pay attention when you're in a meeting, what type of invitation does your presence make? Is your invitation like, shut up and listen up? Or is your invitation like, let's toggle up and think in better ways about the topic at hand? And I just, you know, am such a big fan of his work.

I feel like that, if— Cy, I like that invitation there. I know you sometimes end with a An assignment or an invitation. I loved what you just said there about just next meeting, just notice, are you toggled up? What's the energy like? Are you curious or are you working to be right? I just think that's a, that's an interesting one unless you got another assignment to send them.

No, that's perfect, Alex. I love that you pulled that out. So with that, that's your assignment as well as subscribe and share. So many people are like, after the training, how do we keep the momentum going? And we'll give them a list of pass on the podcast, sign up for the newsletter, connect with Alex and I on LinkedIn, follow us on social. Like, and a lot of people are like, besides that, I'm like, we can't give away more nourishment to sustain your learning. So there's so many resources out there and you're like, how do I tell my team this? Well, you don't even have to. Just invite them to the podcast or invite them to, you know, join us on LinkedIn or sign up for the newsletter. Just go to realitybasedleadership.com. Sign up and, um, you know, help is available to you. So I would just encourage you to do that. And everyone be well until next time.

Take care.