Creating Structure to Give Freedom to Employees

Welcome, listeners, to another episode of the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. I'm excited to be back on split screen with Alex Dorr, the VP of People Evolution at Reality-Based Leadership. And this is the platform that we come together to spin off a bit on topics we've heard over the last couple of weeks, both online and as we're out keynoting throughout the nation, and I guess for me, the world at times. So Alex, welcome to another episode. Thank you. How you doing?

I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited about this one. We had a really good run on LinkedIn. We put a little clip of the last episode, which was on disruption-proofing your business with business readiness or change readiness. And there's just a whole run of comments on SaaSy's LinkedIn of people adding to the conversation and building on it or just saying what resonated with them. And so I think getting that conversation, that loop going is making these really fun. So I think we have another good topic to do that. And so we appreciate that. So I just wanted to throw that out there. It's got me fired up for this one.

Nice. And it's exactly the point. We're hoping to come together and this isn't a replacement of training. You know, some of our podcasts in the past, we gave you lots of exact content. This is more about getting discussions going. So those of you that are out there, you've been trained, you've been to a keynote, you're practicing the philosophy of reality-based leadership. This is just helping touch on different components that we want conversation on. So make sure, comment, yay, ask us questions for future podcasts, subscribe, and definitely share this as a way for you to start conversations in your workplaces with your colleagues, with your teams. And I agree, today's topic I'm pretty excited about. And I want to touch on how structure. And in Reality-Based Leadership philosophy, the language we use is really non-negotiables and no third options, and how putting structure in place actually unleashes things like innovation and creativity. And when I talk to leaders and I talk to them about, you've got to be really clear on boundaries and non-negotiables and You know, managing that energy away from, you know, your personal preference to business potential and really asking others to take responsibility for their own buy-in. I can see the fear where they're like, well, if I foster accountability, I'll kill engagement. If I set up non-negotiables, I'll kill innovation. And that polarized thinking is the thinking of the ego. And in fact, So much of our work is counterintuitive. Structure operates in much more counterintuitive ways that once you understand kind of a bit of the research behind it, the way the mind works, the way the world works, I think by the end of today, if I've done my job, if Alex has done his job, we've convinced you a bit more about the value of adding structure and that that actually will fuel Innovation, because it creates some psychological safety, creates consistency, settles the mind.

And freedom, actually.

Yeah, settles the mind and helps people understand that we have a method to our madness, that we have some things that are open for your expertise and input and some things that aren't. Not because I'm a control freak, but because there's this thing called reality and it's not You're not the victim of reality, but my job as a leader is helping sit beside you and understand reality so that you can move through the world more skillfully. And so, I love Alex came up with this topic. I love the topic.

Yeah. I don't remember where I saw, but I was reading or listening and it was this balance of structure and play. And you set it up so perfectly. But the study that came up and we were trying to find it before this, but it's like a landscaping study. And what they set up was, It was the same kids going to 2 different playgrounds with a caregiver. And the first playground didn't have a fence around some of the grass and the equipment. And, you know, I got 3 little kids right now, and Sai, you've been around plenty of little kids. You think if you got no fence there, these kids are just going to run off. You're never going to see them. They're going to go all over the town. And what they found was a little bit weird. Those kids just huddled around the caregiver. They could have went anywhere in the town, but they just huddled around the caregiver. So then they took the same kids to a different playground, you know, similar equipment in the study, I think, and they had the fence around it. And what they saw is they thought that'd be a limitation, but the kids immediately started to venture out and explore all the grass. And they were in the corners and grabbing all the flowers and up on the equipment. And it was this idea that once the boundary was set, then the kids felt safer to explore all of their resources and options and tools and everything. In that space. And that got me thinking, to bring this back to Cy, on how much we do with Reality-Based Leadership on having, you know, 7 to 10 non-negotiables. We often say you don't need 100 of them, but leaders have their, their non-negotiables. And then from there, once everybody knows those, then we can explore and fully utilize the resources we have and make sure we're not, you know, asking for more resources before we've even tried to use all the resources we have. And I feel like that balance is really important. And another thing that was from a different conversation that got me inspired was this idea of structure and play. It was in parenting. It was something like, you know, if you're in your kitchen cooking and you hear a couple of your little kids like playing in this other room, like free and talking to themselves and making things up, and they've got enough discipline and structure in the house to then have that just full-on freedom. Yeah. in there, um, to do what they want and explore your, your house. But what happens sometimes is, as a parent, if you get too many structures like rules and they get in trouble for everything, well, then they're just rigid and, you know, scared. But if you have too much play—

And they argue over the rules and they argue over who's fair and what was fair, and they come to you to be the judge and jury of the rules rather than working out their improv or their relationship.

And then the other part of the— it was the joke— is like, too much play is like you go to a restaurant, and we're not judging, but like you You're like, oh, we let our kids kind of, you know, we were in Montessori for a while, we let them do whatever they want at the restaurant. And there's, you know, the people there that are not the parents are like kind of getting through it, but they're getting really mad at your kids. You're already frustrated 'cause they're all over the place running around. It's like too much play, absolute chaos. And a lot of organizations I see as we bring up something like non-negotiables and having some structure, they're like, but what about all the creativity and the free thinking and the open ideas? And it's like, that actually leads to a lot of anxiety and chaos if we don't have some set non-negotiables to then innovate in. So those are some of the things I was bouncing around as I brought this up and wanted to just see where that takes you, Cy.

Well, and I think that whenever we introduce a concept that we're asking you as a leader to bring in and, and consider it as multiple things can be true, notice when you jump into ego because you're like, well, then that will kill creativity. Anytime you're into the extreme, instead of saying like, what would be an eloquent eloquent way to utilize this information, to, to find the and, and to find the benefit in what's being said. And I want to go back to the fence study. I found when you shared it with me from a landscaping idea, and I think that if you're a leader, you need to be not just reading leadership books, you need to be reading poetry, and you need to be involved in life because there's multiple points of validation and many things to borrow from nature, you know. Many of the mathematicians and quantum physicists that I follow borrow from the shape of nature and how nature shows up in a shell rather than studying the backgrounds only of physics. It's like I want you out there looking at that. And the key thing that I think is going to apply to what we're going to talk about here, which is how structure can actually fuel innovation and diffuse trauma, Is that the fence mattered. So in this study, no fence, that was too big a world. So people hung tight and wanted to be micromanaged. They didn't feel safe. They wanted to be right by the caregiver. They wanted to be protective. A chain-link fence that had some transparency that you could see the world beyond, nothing was hidden from you, really was the ideal because it really showed a boundary, but the kids felt really comfortable to do independent play. They knew their boundaries and within those boundaries they were able to do some pretty cool things at recess. A high fence that no one could see over, that blocked the view, that was really repressive, stunted play. The fences weren't the same result. It had to be a chain-link fence or a natural fence that people had visibility to. And I think it's an important message as you're thinking about how do I foster innovation and creativity with my teams? You need to have some structure, and we're going to talk non-negotiables. But some of the structure is: I insist that we use good mental processes consistently, time and time again, to clear up our thinking, find our point of impact. And once you are in that structure, innovate. Yeah, make it happen. And I think too often we're giving like less structure. So I'm really experimenting at this time in my life with my own creativity, and I I know it's there. I'm really creative. Creative in things I make or in writing. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to take an art class online. So I started this about 6 months ago and I took this art class and I signed up for painting and I got my little paint books. I got all my paints. And, and the first 2 classes were profoundly disappointing. I spent 2 hours with someone talking to me about proportion and that your eyes are actually halfway down your face and sketching. out like basic face shapes and what part of your body is like a triangle and what part of like the horizon is actually farther up than you think it is. And it was all this like stuff I personally never wanted to learn. I want to be creative. And I was so frustrated that I'm not a detailed person that I'm sitting through another class where this guy is drawing like inane details.

Like deer.

And he's even talking about you know, how you lay the paper out and the type of paper. And I'm just like, someone shoot me. And so I asked the question, I said, maybe I signed up for the wrong class. Like, I really want to learn painting. And he said, if you go through the first 6 classes, you will find that you will be a really creative, innovative painter. He's like, first we need to build the container, the vessel, So that you then within that vessel can really do some creative things. But all art has some pretty profound structure when you really interview the artist and their process. When you, you interview people who are really into the creative endeavors, they have a process of how they disconnect from the world and how they tune in. And, and that was just another way of saying that For all of us who are leading, we need non-negotiables. So what are non-negotiables? Non-negotiables are those things that by definition just are not negotiable in the business. Safety standards or an automated system being our point of truth, compliance, you know, the ways we do things to prevent infection or evidence-based or even documentation. The non-negotiables that leaders need to set don't need to be 100. It's not a dictatorship, like you said, Alex. But each leader does need to think through what are the business-mandated non-negotiables, what are the community hygiene non-negotiables, like how do we keep our community clean. Those non-negotiables are so important because they build the structure by which we can all commit to and say, given those non-negotiables, I'll sign up for those. And My gift is to adhere to those non-negotiables so that we may be free, so that we may be skillful and innovative together. They're kind of ground rules for a meeting. And non-negotiables, when they're broken or when they're violated, we need to act clearly and swiftly without apology. We can have compassion for the person. But not negotiate the standard. That's the call to greatness. So we can validate that that maybe was a challenge for someone, or that their intent in trying to break the non-negotiable was, you know, understandable. And that we need them to find their way to be able to consistently comply with the non-negotiable. That's their buy-in. That's the symbolism of their— Buy-in, which is a verb that is saying, I come and will join the community, and I'll make the first move by giving my part before I'm asking for, you know, some additional things. And so we often talk about if you're over-managing, it's because your non-negotiables aren't clear. And you've got to set up the non-negotiables without apology, and you have to not enable people when they break the non-negotiables. And you have to, in a non-punitive way, reinforce the non-negotiables. And doing that will build the playgrounds for your people. They'll have a transparent place. I'm not saying you can't challenge a non-negotiable, but the challenge of a non-negotiable is not by lack of compliance. That's not how we single-handedly challenge non-negotiables. We look together at, has the world changed and should our non-negotiable change? Or how can we protect what we were trying to protect with the non-negotiable differently? And what's the risk in that? I think non-negotiables are super, super important.

Yeah, I just, I didn't want to stop. There was so much good there. First thing I want to go back to actually with the art example, you got me inspired just thinking of my first life, which was so much, you know, professional basketball. And I found this structure and play. It reminded me of like when I go and play a pickup game, with like those that aren't basketball players. Like, you know,

dangerous.

Yeah, you bring in like a few wrestlers. And so they're just trying to get a workout. But like, there's some non-negotiables in basketball. This is my one sports example. Like when you shoot, you don't go underneath people's feet because it's an automatic ankle roll. And I tell you what, when I talked to my, you know, friends that played a lot of basketball, they're like, all of my injuries come from just messing around At a park with people that aren't basketball players because the structure— or it's not even that fun, actually. Like, there are certain times, you know, when this happens, it's like a no-brainer to cut that way and you get a basket. And you make that face and the person's like looking at you like, why are you looking at me like that? And there's no dance. The structure ain't there enough. So then the play can't happen and it's just not even fun. And I find that that's what resonated when you brought up that art example. And, and so that was, that was kind of, kind of interesting. And then with the non-negotiables, so much you said there about, you know, the thing that came to mind was like, when those happen, we say a lot, hold the standard, don't lower the standard, up the support. And that's what I've heard you say there.

Yeah, I love that. Let's mark that. When people are asking you to lower the standard, do not, and instead up the support, the learning, The training, the skills, you know,

that piece. And, and, and the example that I often bring up in sessions that they use as well sometimes is we're not reps for them, but like we'll see something like Salesforce getting rolled out, non-negotiable. We want everybody on that point of truth. It's really going to be huge potential for the business. We'll have tracking and analytics and everyone can follow up if you're on vacation. We'll have, you know, you know, visibility of what's going on. And, you know, someone will raise their hand and be like, well, I'm top salesperson and I get you want us to be like using this thing. But, you know, we're kind of special over here. Do I need to follow this process and use this system? And that is bumping up against a non-negotiable. And, you know, at times there's leaders that say, you know what, Alex? Yep, you are top salesperson. We don't need you necessarily, you know, in there. And that lowers the standard. Others see that and they're like, well, do we need to follow it? And then it's a hot mess because we have this big investment that could be huge potential, and we got pockets using the process and pockets not. And so then we often joke, you bring in a whole continuous improvement or process improvement team to look at what's going on, and we don't have good data, or there's a black hole of data in the, you know, West Coast territory. And so it really is this like individual frustration, team frustration, and then it hurts the organization. If a non-negotiable isn't held, and with a bunch of love. So I don't know what that gets you thinking, Sy, but I know that was what caught my mind as you were going through that.

It's so true. We tend to, as leaders and wanting to get fancy and clever first, cater to diversity and cater to personal preferences. And when we do that in the absence of non-negotiables, we really underlead our team. And we, by definition, then have to overmanage our team because the focus is on Why do they get to do it, and what's fair? And and many times we aren't representing all of our portfolio. As a leader, I represent the business, and I represent the client or the patient, and I represent the team, and I represent the individual. And a lot of times we over rotate to the individual because we want them to be pleased, and we erode through lack of boundaries their trust of us. And it's it's a really So when somebody asks me for a last-minute day off and I've got like big staffing, well, I want to accommodate them. I have to think through a few gates. Patient care— what does this do for patient care? And I'm not talking about somebody who's violently ill. I'm talking about the last minute, they didn't use the process of PTO, they asked me they'd love to go to a family barbecue and they didn't think of it or whatever, and they come to me. I want to help them. First, I've gotta think about what would that do to patient care? Would my patients be safe? Do I have enough coverage? Then I need to think about it from an organizational standpoint. Does this set precedent? Does it, you know, put us in liability as far as how we handle our, um, you know, staffing requests? And then I've gotta think about the team. Does this put the team under undue duress? That's gate number 3. Mm-hmm. And then finally, if the answer is For all of those, okay, then I gladly would grant the time off. And I think it's so important because most leaders I'm working with right now are seeing themselves more as victims of the free-for-all. And I'm like, but you didn't set up anything other than a free-for-all. You know, we're in back-to-school times, and when I talk to teachers— and for some reason there's a lot of them on my feed right now— There is whole science called pedagogy. Pedagogy. There's whole science about classroom management and about, you know, there's a method to their madness and they come in with some real non-negotiables. And, you know, some parents think it's really rigid. You know, the teacher is starting her day with 25 first graders, but this is a convenient time for me to talk to the teacher. And the teacher's like, Look, I have 15 minutes to get everybody to get their backpacks up, to answer all the questions, to get these kids started for the day. This is the worst time ever. And the parent's preference is, but I don't want to handle this later. The teacher stinks. And it's like, we really see people who don't understand the science behind things catering to preferences that have a bigger risk or damage than they would ever calculate. The business bought a standardized process. And people want to get fancy and clever and make exceptions. The leaders are making exceptions, which is giving away the business case of putting together a standardized process. And it opts that person out of every system that could help them. I gave you a standardized process. We comply 100%, so we have good data on what to improve next. That's continuous improvement. That if I cater to you, I opt you out of standardization. We can't scale. You're not scalable and you're going to be soon replaceable by automation. I opt you out of continuous improvement. That's how we're going to do business. You keep fighting to be included in decisions and that's not where our power is. Our power is in continuous improvement. So I opt you out of 100 of the systems we put in place and then am, you know, feeling like you're the one not growing and developing. And you're the one replaceable. And I've got to look as a leader how I enable and value. You know, Danielle LaPorte talks a lot about boundaries, and I'm teaching leaders so much about boundaries. And what I'm finding is they don't understand boundaries. We should do a whole podcast on boundaries. Boundaries are not just non-negotiables, but that's an important— They also are limits, like We've talked about this and the decision's been made. We're moving on. Boundaries are not how I want to control you. They are the instruction manual on how you can be successful with us. And I think that, you know, is, is just an important piece. Danielle LaPorte has a fence example too that she uses. If you don't know Danielle's work, discover her. She's amazing. Somewhat about leadership, more about personal development. When I was constantly letting people too far into my life and trusting where trust wasn't due, and then feeling victimized by the fact that they took advantage, I picked up on some of her boundary work. And she said— I said, I don't want to live in a way that I have to keep everybody at arm's length. And her response was beautiful. She said, put a picket fence around your heart. And no one gets in that picket fence unless they are very clear about the rules and the expectations, and you feel that they could handle it. Once you let them in that fence, that's the boundary. Then they get to just be unconditionally loved. They get to have a lot of give and take. They get to, you know, they aren't boundary destroyers. They aren't boundary testers. They're boundary innocents. They still may hurt you. But they're really willing to turn towards you and work through it. And I think non-negotiables are the first step for leaders in setting boundaries. And if you aren't clear with your team about what the non-negotiables are, then you're not setting boundaries. And boundaries aren't my mandate for you. They're helping you get into the place where you and I can have a great relationship and do great work together. We're using hope as our strategy. We're just hoping that people Can do great work with us. And I think it's lazy leadership, actually.

Well, and I— it goes back to a concept we've introduced, I think, a couple times in the last few podcasts, but the gates I wrote down that how you went through, you know, patient or customer, org, team, individual. You said that as a leader, how I look at those gates. Funny enough, I see a lot as the individual contributor. I think from that lens as much as I can. That's actually a ticket to more happiness at work, in my humble opinion, is I'm not just trying to maximize my individual position, my hours, my time off, my Fridays without even thinking about my team and how that might affect, you know, my colleague who's got a parent who's fallen ill that might need Friday and Monday off. I just need to go to the barbecue, right? It's like I'll be thinking about my team and then I'm really thinking organizationally, like, what is this looking like and, and is this the best time? You know, we're If you're in accounting, we're like at deadlines on September 15th. Am I taking the day now or is it better to do this, you know, at a different time? And then, and then all the way up to the customer and patient. And I find, unless you disagree, this is actually like a connection to source. I mean, after customers, kind of like, you know, your why you're at that organization, above that is something spiritual. I'm like, you, if you flip that as an individual, you're going to have more energy, less burnout. You're connected to something bigger than you. And so I find like as an individual, that's kind of flipped right now. And as a leader, what you're doing is welcoming people back to that in their gates. You're kind of modeling that structure you go through. So that's what you had me thinking about. And then I just love your trying to get fancy and clever before we've even tried a best practice. You know, we often say don't optimize before you've standardized. Like, insert vanilla as long as it's not illegal, immoral, unethical. A good enough process or, you know, software decision, be a good data point to say we went all in. I was as, you know, all in as I could. Here's how we made it work in the short term. And here's how to do it better, faster, cheaper, safer if we want to play a little bit more. And so that structure, saying yes to it, being a good data point allows you to come back and say, here's how we could play and do bigger. And so I, I loved how you brought that up. And the free-for-all I just started here because it had me cracking up. It's like, The free-for-all seems like freedom and innovation, but it really—

It isn't. It is— the free-for-all is not innovation. It is people trying to get personal preference to trump potential. A free-for-all is not improv. Improv is so funny, but there's some rules for improv. If you take an improv class, there's a lot of rules and you practice a lot of exercises before somebody turns you loose. In improv, and I think that you know it's no coincidence that people have over the last three years really favored their own personal preference. And for some of it, I'm a fan. I curated a life I didn't need a vacation from, but I didn't curate that at the expense of others. But a lot of people have inserted their personal preference and basically said, "I want to be part of a gig community," but a gig economy, but have a community I can trust. And in, in, in America, at least, the depression levels have increased and the stress levels have increased, and parents are as stressed as they ever have been. And, um, and I'm not saying there isn't some tough things in the world, and we're working through some tough things. Like, there's, there's some stressors happening. At the same time, the varied time that people are opting out of community and kind of what's in it for me is the very time that we're spiking our own, you know, numbers, trends of disenfranchisement. And, you know, being a good member of the community and having that balance is important. And leaders, you know, a lot of people are like, how do we solve the nation's problems? I'm like, just work with the 12 people around you and insist that if you're going to work in the gig economy, work in the gig economy, but that's not in our community. And, Our team, and we can call on you as we need, but you don't get the same benefits. And I think psychological safety is not just buffering people from reality or giving them kind of the illusion that you can protect them or that you will never startle them or that the world will never disrupt them. Psychological safety is that I know how to work with you. There's some consistency and predictability, and that even when you're giving me some feedback, we have a context where you really care about me. And Lou Holtz— I hardly ever bring up sports analogies, but I still remember when I went to a keynote by Lou Holtz. I want to say, I might be wrong, 30 years ago. I've remembered this for 30 years. This is how impactful it was. Lou Holtz said, everyone you meet is trying to answer 3 questions about you. First question, do you care about me? And that's why I really preach love people up, see them, appreciate them, take an interest in who they are as a person, and validate some of their struggles. Like, this isn't easy when you're that age and, you know, balancing family or have somebody in your life that, you know, is ill. So the first thing is, do you care about me? And that is the important first question to answer. That's what people are looking about. Are you an asshole? Are you— do you care about anybody? Like, do you have feelings? Are you in touch with your own feelings? Or are you just, you know, benefiting yourself, like padding your own pocketbook? I mean, do you care about my development? Do you care about my success? Do you care about who I am? Question number 2 is, can I trust you? And trust— a lot of us think you can trust me if I never upset you, but trust is enhanced post-conflict if people can work through it. Trust is enhanced when you have a boundary I tested You don't back down and you still make room for me to come back into the fold. Trust is not about, are you permissive or do you never upset me? Trust is, can I trust your good feedback? Because I know that you also have some other types of feedback for me. And when you give me positive feedback, I can believe it because you give me Developmental feedback when I need it. And so trust is being willing to not enable and to really take on these things. And the last question is people ask of you, are you as committed to excellence as I am? And if you don't have non-negotiables, if you are allowing for people to resist standardization or insert their preference over the evidence-based practice that we have in place or the process, If you are allowing that, then people can't answer that with a resounding yes, that you're committed to excellence. And I actually had this case of being a new leader and being trained on how important infection control was in the health system and how important simple things were, like closed-toed shoes, like non-negotiable. You do not walk around our cardiac care unit with open-toed shoes. Mostly. I mean, you're going to get crap on your feet you don't want. I mean, you're going to spread crap. But most importantly, I'm trying to protect you from all the things that live on the hospital floor. It's just, it's not okay. And one day I was a noon leader and a gentleman with a white coat, obviously a physician, walks on the unit in sandals. And he was in a rush and he was just coming through. And I just did my job. To me, that was a clear violation. Clear non-negotiable. My job was to decrease infection on the unit and to really hold the bar. And I said, oh my gosh, timeout. Glad I caught you. Can I ask what you're coming in to do? Glad to help with that. Can't do it in open-toed shoes. And the person pulled rank on me. He's like, do you even know who I am? And as I read his jacket, I did, because his name was on the building. I'm like, wow. And I admire this guy and I'm like, oh my gosh. You're Dr. Such-and-such. I'm one of your new unit managers. I'm so honored to meet you. I love the work you've done with SSRI uptake in here. Like, I was like fangirling over this guy.

And I'm happy with your outcomes.

Yeah. And he basically said, but step aside. And I said, what do you mean? Like, you still can't— I can't come on the unit? And he's like, I just have a quick check to make on a patient. And I'm like, I just have to stop you right there. And he's like, what are you doing? And I said, I love your work and I'm so honored that I actually get to help you improve your outcomes by reminding you that you need closed-toed shoes on. And he was very dismissive. I was not personalizing it. I was just saying, you know what, where are the impasse? How do we solve for this? And I said, I think I have an idea. I can't let you on, but if you're in a hurry, And he was, he got paged and he came. It was non-emergent but urgent. Um, and I just went to one of my male nurses and I'm like, what size shoes do you wear? And he's like a 10. I'm like, they might be a little floppy, but I think Dr. Such-and-such. And I got him, you know, socks and shoes and he went on his way. And everybody was like, I can't believe you stood up to him. I said, I didn't stand up to him. I stood up for the patient. It's easier. I stood up for Us having really a great reputation on this unit for people getting better here, not sicker, and that was useful to them. They're like, "Oh, it wasn't a conflict." I said, "It wasn't personal. I just he was in a hurry. He had the right intent. He was trying to help a patient. I'm here to hold the center," and they were all waiting for him to like have me fired. Like they're like, "Dude, like it's been nice knowing you because he gets your leader. Your ass is like grass," and I'm like. Bottom line, if that's what I get fired for, I'm okay with it.

Great story to tell the next interview.

My next interview, why'd you get fired? I kindly asked a physician to operate within protocol. The opposite happened. The end of the story is he and I became very close because he would bring me issues knowing that he had experienced firsthand I didn't negotiate the important stuff. He had such confidence in me that I would take his concerns, and that I would immediately clean that up. And we had a very long career together, and we joked about that oftentimes where he said, I was just so taken aback, and I was under a bias that, you know, like, I can go in a room and germs don't jump on me, but anybody else can't go in that room. And that's leadership. It's not personal. We all get under the bias that I am special. I know what I'm doing. I won't have that big of impact. And as a leader, if you want to build trust, care about your people, give them various diverse feedback. You're perfect and you could stand some improvement. And uphold these non-negotiables. And soon you'll have kids playing independently on the playground, not coming to you as judge and jury. It's just, it's just a good reminder. So your assignment really is— Come up with your 10 non-negotiables, review them with your team. They can have part in making the non-negotiables, but be very clear that you will address them only always.

Love it. I had that starred to make sure you told that story because it's one we haven't heard in a while. Like, I would fail the audience if you didn't go into that one. So, yeah, that's— I got nothing else. That was great. And I hope you all run with this. And we can't wait to hear the feedback on

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