Data we HAD to share - Our Leadership Development Learning Series and Process

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reality Based Leadership podcast. I've got Alex Dorr here. He's our VP of Evolution at Reality Based Leadership. And hopefully, you know, by now I'm Cy Wakeman. And we're so glad to have you as a listener to this podcast. We think we have a really timely and relevant topic today. So first of all, good to see you, Alex.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited for this one and to see where it goes.

Absolutely, absolutely. And again, make sure if you find value in these podcasts, it's a great thing to share with your team and with your colleagues or with your, you know, SHRM groups or other places, your leadership groups that you are hanging out in. It's just a really nice way to get some additional sustainability to your work as a reality-based leader. So make sure that you're following us on social media and that you're And we're always up for a good rating as well. That always helps. So appreciate it. Today's topic is really ROI on the investment in learning. And so many of you right now are going through proposing to your leadership teams what you would like to either have for your teams, your direct reports, you and your colleagues, what you're asking for as far as investment in your work. And you're also, you know, maybe an HR or learning and development professional that is bringing forward some of your needs assessment and your recommended solutions. And the one thing that a lot of people hear and at times get frustrated by is like, well, what's the ROI? And some of us move right into learned helplessness. So like, well, what's the ROI of your mother? And I understand. that there's some qualitative things that we just know make a difference and are good. But I also don't want you to shy away from true ROI because we can measure, you know, training. We measure in 4 spaces. You know, we evaluate at levels 1, 2, 3, and 4. And 1 is, did you enjoy the class? And 2, did you use it? And 3, you know, is it making a difference? And 4 is, did it change the business? Did it have impact on things we care about? And so Alex and I were talking about how we might help at this time of year. And we have some amazing data from some partnerships we've done that we wanna talk about that maybe you can either start to collect the same things or present from your vendors. We're always glad to offer our data and help you make the case for training. But we thought it would be an interesting take. So I don't know what you have to add to that, Alex, before we get into kind of some exciting— Numbers about that.

Yeah, I just— you nailed it right there. Is, uh, the question just gets brought up so much, and one of the things I often ask— it's a, it's a funny question that gets brought up— is like, well, how are you currently measuring, you know, other training services? And like, oh, I guess we, you know, sometimes aren't measuring it. But then a lot of times us at RVL, we get asked like, how would we measure the impact of this? So I'm excited to share, um, some of this program, and, and you'll go into it, Sai, but it's really Part of this learning development series, leadership development series, but we also bring in a part for the individual contributor to bring the language and the tools together. And we've been doing this process, I think now for 3 or 4 years in this intentional way. And this group was really collecting some data. So it's really fun to see some of the top things that most people say we're trying to impact. This is what we measured. And then you really, you know, have seen the needle move on it. So I'll just add that, but looking forward to talking about it a bit.

Yeah, it's really exciting. And we find that a lot, that if people are asking for a change, which feels a bit threatening perhaps to the ego or the status quo or the power structure, people double down on like, what's the ROI and how can you make this a safe move? And when we ask that question, like, how are you measuring your current training, the safe stuff, stuff that you've told us isn't working or people aren't using? And the answer is like, well, we don't really measure that. And so, whenever you see a double standard coming in on any of your work leaders, question the double standard. So, a lot of people are like, how can you guarantee me that this will give us an ROI of 50%? It's like, well, what's your current investment portfolio? Do you really expect an ROI over 6%? They're like, well, no. Do you ask your sales groups when they You know, put forward a business plan to have that hefty of an ROI, you know. And so one of the things is to avoid some of the emotional blackmail. However, I do believe in measuring the effects of training. And a lot of times people ask us for our new metrics, and what we ask them is, what are you already measuring and concerned about? You know, whether it's retention or regrettable turnover or number of people looking for a different job or people reporting reporting that they feel burnt out, or people not feeling confident that they can do their jobs, or even that their jobs are doable. And so that's the metrics we like to pull out, is what have you been measuring, and what have you been measuring for quite a bit of time, and what can you use as self-reports, just like you do in engagement surveys, and then what can you use for like business numbers? Because a lot of people can get the same numbers, one with joy, one with misery. And so we measure just the numbers. aren't measuring the impact to somebody's well-being or the fact that you used up a really valuable resource of a leader or a colleague in, you know, 1 year or less. Like, there's a lot of intangible costs that, that we need to get at that I think is, is so important. And before we get into this, I think another comment is so much of what we're trying to do for people is buffer them from reality. When they come to us, they're like, can you change reality? Can you slow things down? Can you staff things up? Can you fund things differently? Can you, you know, somehow figure out where we don't have to deal with this regulation? And leaders again default into, let me go fix your reality. And there's some research that kind of guesstimates like how content people are, and only 10% has to do with their reality. 40% has to do with how they move through their reality with accountability. And so when people come to me and they're like, can you fix this reality? If I can, I do. But most of the time I say, no, I'd rather grow you so that you can walk skillfully through any reality. And so we really believe that what we're talking about today and some of these amazing growth numbers, they almost seem too good to be true. Some of these amazing growth numbers are because we skilled up the people so that they can walk through their current reality more skillfully. And we know other people in the organization are working on Improving the reality, whether it's staffing or whether it's technology or breakthroughs. So I think that's an important piece when you think about measuring, is measure people's contentment and ability and feeling as though it's even doable to move through their reality now. Because keeping everything dependent on reality makes sure that you're just never going to get there.

So I like what you said there. I didn't realize I was saying that in some of my sessions. If it feels like we're over-focusing on productivity, you're getting, you know, better results for the business. And yes, that's, that's one of the— what we're working on. But I sometimes play a different angle, especially if I'm doing more like the employee level for some reason, just to, you know, ease in there a bit with our content is, you know, let's say you just take business results out of the way for a second. Not that we're doing that. If you just want to do this more effortlessly, like just more happiness, same results, but more effortlessly, this is what this is about. And what I find is as things get more effortless, then you see at the end of that process, you got better business results. So it is that getting more skillful going through the same day. You said joy or misery, your choice. And what you mean, what you mean by that is your skillset or approach and even your, um, you know, just thinking around it. And you might end up at the end, wow, we actually got better results. And that wasn't as hard as I remember. So, so I love that you brought that up as a, um, a shift.

Well, and I think just to ground people in what we study, which is drama, and drama is, you know, emotional waste. And we pay a lot of attention to energy and drama is any energy That goes away from results and wellbeing. And we've always said that it's a double win when you use good mental processes. So if drama's emotional waste, and how do we address waste? We know that process improvement is a really great methodology to address waste. And if something's emotional waste, then using a good mental process will help address that. And what we're trying to do is conserve the pipeline that turns talent, you know, into business results. And any energy that, that falls out of that pipeline, any leak in there is, is drama. And but the leak isn't just about turning talent to productivity. It is about anything that goes away from results and/or well-being. And a lot of people are just talking about well-being now and burnout and those types of things, but We've always seen that as energy that isn't attributed to both. And we know that good mental processes that we preach increase wellbeing and they increase productivity. It's like, it's a double win. So, so some of the exciting results, unless you had something to add, Alex, I don't wanna cut you off. I feel like—

No, I think we, we don't have to hold any longer. I'm just excited. We'll, we'll go through each of these that you, that stand out to you, but Go ahead. And then we'll talk a little bit about the structure of this, which is so cool that helps with immersion and practice and why we're excited about it.

The leaders that are involved in their association, and they're placed throughout the United States in big healthcare systems and actually throughout the world, they're really interested in how can we help with the issues you're facing. And so some of the things that they started to see come up before we even partnered that were important to organizations is organizations were saying, you know, like, how can we help one with people's overall career satisfaction? And also, how can we develop our leaders? And I loved the constructs that Sonova put together to both help with and then measure, because the cool thing about healthcare is we like to be pretty evidence-based, is they really said, you know, as far as leadership competencies, what people are telling us they feel underskilled in is coaching and fostering accountability and leading during times of change and disruption and really getting their teams to deliver results. And And so as they talked about, from a leadership competency, where do you feel under or not yet competent in? And it definitely was coaching, accountability, results, and leading people through change. And for those of you that are raving fans, you know, wildly enough, that that's 4 of our 5 competencies that we've researched and said those are the Holy Grail. Being low in those increases drama and decreases your emotional value. And then when we said, well, how are you measuring? You know, what are you concerned about career satisfaction? Like, what are you measuring? And they said, we measure a lot of career satisfaction because we are so focused on retention and these jobs are really hard. We measure retention, obviously job satisfaction, like, you know, Are you more satisfied in your current position? They also measure engagement, engagement, like how bought in you are. But a new one that hit the scene recently, of course, was burnout, especially in healthcare. So they were really keen to say, what can we help with? And it's job satisfaction. Are you engaged? Are you planning to stay? And burnout. And that really was the, um, most concerning issues. So given that request for help, we really took what we know to be best practice and how to deliver these leadership development experiences, and we put them into place. And so we did a pre-test and a post-test in each of those 8 areas, and we've done that now through a series of cohorts, and it's just been Kind of mind-blowing what the results have been.

Yeah, I love it. I love it, Sai, just how this starts to connect together with, you know, the competencies that we're trying to gain fluency in with the groups we work with, and then setting up this, this, this, this work and this research. And just even on the website that we can share just some of the testimonials, not just in the data, of how people just really had evolved, and they were really to go back at the Same job they were limping through, basically, you know, you know, swimming through mud. It felt like they could walk through air, although the same challenges were there. So

I don't know if you want to pick out a couple of those distance to cover, but one feels like they're slogging through mud. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So and and what's important about the program and and to know the setup is that the program was where. organizations would sponsor some of their key people, people they had an eye towards wanting to retain through this experience. And so it went along with our philosophy of work with the willing and the eager. We— this program wasn't to fix the folks that were running, you know, the farthest away from us or in the biggest victim mindset. It was to take good people and help restore their ability to feel as though they could make a difference and have impact. And, um, and so what the program was about, which is really our best practice, it was 5 sessions, and each session is a deep dive. We happen to do this program completely virtually because our participants are from all over, many different medical systems, and we would take maybe 2 to 3 or 5 to 6 from a medical system, put them in with other people across the cohort, and we would do 5 learning sessions. So virtual deep dive into how do you build business readiness, how do you foster accountability, and, and all of those things. And then the 3-hour virtual session would be followed the very next week with a group coaching session. So here's the content. And that was a very interactive session, lots of breakouts. Our whole model is let's interrupt your thinking, present what we believe is, is a truth or a way, and then tell some stories. Have you tried on for size? And then settle your minds that this is easy and doable and kind of bypass that ego of why we can't to how we could. And so then the assignments were go out this week and pick, you know, one area that you can use this, because what we learn and we don't use, right, leads to righteousness. We know better and we can tell other people how to do better, but we've skipped the step of actually walking through the world differently. And as people came back to the group coaching, it was really phenomenal. They would give examples of how they used the information, what they tried, how it went. We could coach on How to process improve it, you know, how to take what happens and continue to make it better. We can problem solve with them. We can overcome some of their fears. Some people are like, I didn't use it at all. I chickened out. Whatever people present with, it's a really great way to guide their application. And then the cohort they built is a cohort that lives on because we really want to connect people to each other. So they have all these RBL partners in their organization, but throughout their profession and can really get that ongoing support in moving forward. So that's the intervention. So we did a pretest, the intervention, and then a posttest, and then we'll check back again longer term with these folks. But if there's any healthcare leaders out there, and it's not just nursing, we've had imaging, we've had finance. We've had lots of folks out there, but operations support. Just know that we offer public sessions, but Sonova too offers this healthcare-specific session. They have another cohort starting at the beginning of the year. But, and Alex, I think you've been really using the same best practice format to a lot of success.

Well, yeah, that's, I'm glad you brought that up, is this model we saw, you know, that data coming through and we'd been We've been testing it with some other groups before. And then, as we went into this, this is how we're going to nail it. And so, being able to do that, sometimes we do it as a 5-part series with those learning sessions or depending on timing, a 7-part series. But, I love the group coaching aspect where I think Sai and I can both come clean and say we deliver that learning session, we're like, now you got it, and we want to run on to the next. You know, deeper dive. And sometimes we're guilty of not holding space, sitting with it, letting that immersion happen, and that, um, you know, trying it on for size, coming back, discussing with your cohort, and then getting a little bit of extra, you know, oh, you know, this— because people aren't cement. You try a technique that works 80% of the time, timing was off, um, you know, maybe your tone was off, or maybe it was someone that wasn't as willing as you thought, or You got into some good territory of reflection, but you needed your exit line. And so as you try this, you can be like, oh, it didn't work. But you come back and you have colleagues sharing and your cohort that said that happened to me before. The person just needs some more time. Or you can add in all of that extra nuance in the group coaching and continue to get your confidence up. And I know one time you called it you intellectualize the content where you're in the training, you're like, that was good. And you think you got it. And then you're like, I don't need to apply it. And you just try and get the next you know, um, fun piece of content to— and, and I think that's what it ensures that you don't do, is just move on to the next thing, think you get it but not try it, apply it personally or with someone that's willing and, you know, in need of some coaching. And so I love the, the format there, and I've seen that in my sessions as well, that group coaching.

I think a lot of people need to understand the tools aren't a magic bullet. If you do this or say this, then you can like somehow control the minds of others. The tools give you an invitation that gets people participating in dialogue in a healthy way. And that may not solve the problem in 50 minutes or less, but it certainly starts to get people more healthily engaged in co-creating a solution. And so our tools aren't just a, do this and then this will be the outcome. They don't predetermine the outcome. What they assure is that you're engaging in healthy ways. and you're, you know, able to move through conversations differently. So yeah, super important. So some of the things that we looked at— well, another thing that coaching does is it brings up real ways that the content makes business results come to fruition. So a lot of times people are looking for level 4, they give the training, and then they have to go out and searching the business to try and figure out how is this delivered ROI. And we get to hear it every coaching session where we're like, note to self, this altered the trajectory of something stalled for 2 years and now we've made progress. And so you start to see those success stories. But what that does to everybody else on the group coaching call, it shows you it's possible. And that's a key way to make behavior change, is to help people understand the multiple positive possibilities that are out there. And group coaching is a way to do that. So career satisfaction was really important important to me, especially coming off of COVID and with a lot of our healthcare leaders reporting record amounts of burnout, dissatisfaction, reporting these jobs are no longer even doable. And so a lot of people are doing great work on restructuring work and, um, but really felt like we're hopeless. And I refuse to believe that because I know when I've led in healthcare using the principles and not using the principles, Same day, different results. So the first thing that we measured was job satisfaction. So we did a pretest and a posttest on job satisfaction. And what blew me away is over 50% of the respondents— this was a 3-month course— over 50% of the respondents said that they're more satisfied with their current position having completed the course. And again, I would not say this is a silver bullet training course, having engaged in the experience. These people were bought in, they were willing, they're They were willing to get in the mess. They were vulnerable. You know, they were working the program. But that was just astounding to me, 50% difference in job satisfaction.

It's just wild. I see that again, and I can't— just some of these, you know, starting with that number is, is because we just hear it so much, the satisfaction is lower than ever. And when I saw that, I'm like, you know, this is onto something. And any other side, then I got a story to tell. I want to get to this data up, but I want to say—

Let me put the satisfaction together just to let people understand, because so job satisfaction went up by 50%, engagement went up by 80%. And if you know my philosophy, engagement's a choice. It's like you— buy-in is a verb, and it does not— those are not separate. If 80% of people are saying that they were as engaged or more engaged with their current position after completing the course And then reported job satisfaction. I would tell you that if we can help them understand how to manage their own engagement, the job satisfaction isn't just what we did for them. It is a byproduct of people re-remembering that there's a space between the unpreferred reality and a different future. And if they walk into that space and find their place of impact and engage, toggle up and step forward, that their job satisfaction will go up. So the course helped them do that, the experience, but These are related. So a lot of you think that job satisfaction is separate from engagement and that engagement is driven by the organization creating easy realities. And that's— there's so many flaws in that language. Also said 94% of respondents, 94%, reported that they are not actively looking for a position after completing The experience and that they felt less burned, they felt like the jobs were more doable. 50% reported lower rates of burnout. This is because that burnout is partially systemic, right? How it's set up and staffing and job duties and burdens of medical records and things like that. But a lot of burnout Is whether I'm toggled down, seeing myself as a victim, or I'm toggled up, looking for my point of impact. And so when we got that overall career satisfaction back, like, I literally am like, I know we're good. That sounds too good to be true. I fell into what some of you guys fall into. But I tell you what, we're looking for, you know, the, the magic pill and a lot of what we already have would work if we worked it, you know. But you gotta— instead of looking for the bright shiny new, you've got to dig into, um, the good kind of old-fashioned things we know about human behavior and, and those types of things. So Alex, you actually had a chance to deliver some of the— or see some of these results first delivered, um, at Sanova at one of their conferences.

Yeah, I want to tell that story, but I was going back on the website where we have some of this data, and I think you grabbed the, uh, The retention piece was, is a recent study I think that kicked off some of this is that I think they surveyed managers, directors, executives from 47 different states working. This was in acute care, but over 50% of respondents said they intend to leave their current position within the next, you know, 5 years. And so it was a little bit of seeing that data. You're like, you know, it's really impressive. But yeah, we, we were so excited about this. And we put it up to the group that had, you know, a couple of groups had come through the cohort. So I thought this is gonna be a slam dunk because at the conference to kind of share this, I was going to do a follow-up. And so I'd been there a few years before and I was just gonna go a little bit deeper in the content and then we would plug this program and the data came up there and all of the themes of the conference were on how to, how do we figure this out? Like, how do we work on all these things? And I was waiting for that like big moment where the sea parts and everybody like is like, That's pretty impressive. And it went up there and people looked at it and kind of turned their head. Even me, I was like looking around and be like, you know, and then it was like, next slide. And it wasn't— they didn't say that, but it was like, oh, you know, that's like too good to be true. And we had just talked about how all these things we're trying to figure out throughout the, you know, 2 or 3 day conference. And I— that sat with me for a long time because, um, you know, I don't know, like, I know this was a willing group. This was a group that really You know, put in the time. And I'm like, I thought that was just going to be a slam dunk. And, and I kind of asked people at lunch after, like, is that program at all interesting to you? And it was just a very strange experience. And it reminds me of— and so you say this happens to you all the time where people are like, that's amazing. And you got training and sounds good. What else do you got?

Yeah.

Or what else do you got? It's like, not that that looks like it's got some good, interesting data to it. What else do you got? Or is there something more easier? Is there another silver bullet? So that was my really strange experience when you see like, this is all the things you're working on as a leader, and there might be a program that can help with some of those things. And it was like, what else you got? So I don't know what your response is to that, but it was interesting.

It is. And as you know, someone with a background in mental health, that's a classic symptom of learned helplessness and dissociation. So there's like, here's something that would really help. And learned helplessness is when I've come to believe that I cannot have impact over the situation, that I am the victim, somebody else is the villain, and, you know, the outcome is predetermined. And when we go, actually it's not, and there are some things you could do, that identity of I am a victim and my work is hard and it's unfigureoutable and that's undoable, which is all work of the ego, is being toggled down, believing your own thinking, not questioning that, that becomes an identity because You know, let's say I went and worked in healthcare and I came home and people are like, how was your day? And I'm like, gosh, you know, I saw some things that we could make a difference and I helped lead and innovate and intervene on those and we made a bit of progress. And I, you know, I guess, you know, we'll begin there tomorrow. How was your day? There's no cheap bonding, as Brené Brown would say. There's no like, like, oh my God, you poor thing. Like, I don't get externally validated for being a skilled, competent leader who delivered great patient care. And a lot of us have gotten into not taking care of ourselves and not bonding on, on great results. We have trauma bonded on how bad we're doing, and that's become almost an identity. So when you put some of this stuff up, a lot of people, you know, are like, um, you know, Do you have a program for this? I'm like, well, I just kind of shared with you that we have a program that really impacts that. And it's it's a behavior called skimming too. You know, when I worked with people that were involved in some addictive behaviors, and they're like, I just feel so tired in the morning. I have horrible night sweats, and I don't sleep well. And I'm like, well, alcohol affects sleep. And and and they're like, you know, I think I'm going to get that aura ring. And I'm like, that will be a great first step because it will show you how alcohol affects your sleep. And you know, it's like everything. But that. And so if we're not careful in leadership, we can get into, um, yeah, I know all of that, but everything but that. Like, how do you improve people's mental health? And I'm like, good sleep, sunshine in the morning, good mental processes, plenty of water, movement, lots of water, eating nutritious food. Like, there's a lot of science around this. And people are like, yeah, but have you heard about that cream that everybody— I'm like, It might not work if you're not drinking water, getting your sleep. So it's a human tendency. And I think those of us in positions to choose training have to really self-examine whether we are in this tendency to collude with and stay the victims and make everything hard. Because there are plenty of great solutions out there, but it involves people working the solution imperfectly.

Yeah, yeah. I wrote down here as you were talking about this prior, I wrote down the word confidence. Like, as you give these tools linking it to engagement and satisfaction, you're not going into these situations where you're basically kind of naked without an approach to help someone who's venting or help someone who's getting negative or facilitate that huddle or that meeting that's focused solely on why we can't, although our job's to figure out how we could, you know, given some of the circumstances. And I saw on the back, um, or this is in the leadership competencies, that 55% Felt more confidence in their knowledge of and ability to, as a team leader, to coach their team. So, that confidence comes from having a couple of tools. When you get kind of blindsided or when an unpreferred reality comes out of nowhere, you have a pattern recognition system to say that unpreferred reality can go through this coaching model, or I have these exit lines, or I can hold space in this way. 70% felt more confident to coach towards accountability. And in our research, your level of accountability, as you already mentioned, is most correlated to your happiness. So 70% of this group felt more able to invite people to mental processes or tools of thinking that lead to action and accountability, 60% more confident to lead during change. I mean, I don't think there's a call I have, and so I think you'd probably agree that they're like, we're going— the word is transformation. Yeah. Every group I've worked with the last 17 are like, we're in Transformation. And I know it's a way to say change so people don't get triggered. And then 80% felt more confident to lead to results. So I just think that, that skill set and that engagement piece, I'm willing to engage in a lot of situations I might back down from or collude with because I have some new tools to stay in there. And I think that's half of it right now, staying in there with a loving heart, holding the space, and then just pointing to a different direction that's more towards how we could.

And so many things are focused on questions that kind of be, how do we please the people? Or how do I make my people happy? And I'm like, I will skill you up on how to lead. And then you've got systems where people own their own happiness. You've got systems that help measure engagement. So if there's an issue that's really a barrier, you're going to see that come up. But people that are not willing to engage in that same way, Our processes won't make everybody happy, but they really will help you understand, make the invitation, call people to greatness, and love people up. And then people have good information to make better decisions. And so this isn't all about like you're gonna make everybody happy or retain all your people. We've really gotten off track there. It's like you're gonna be a skilled leader that can make the invitation for people to join you on doing great work and feel really honored and respected and loved up to do that. And there will be some people who opt out of that, and that's part of reality-based leadership too, is that's okay. So it's exciting to me that these results— we've got them, I think, maybe on our website, it's definitely on Sonova website. And again, these were pre- and post-test self-reports Reported, right? And that organizations themselves are already measuring retention and burnout and some of those things. But I remind you that self-reported improvement is probably the least— or the most cynical improvement. Like, people don't want to let go of their stories. You're like, do you feel confident? It's like, well, kind— these were like, yes.

Depends who I'm talking to and if I have to leave that person yet.

And so even though they're self-reported, I you know, we're excited by them. It's not the end-all, but what we just wanted to put out there and remind you is that the future is not hopeless. Like, we are struggling with some things that we're measuring, but there are interventions that with good partnership can make a difference. And I think a lot of us also have gotten into learned helplessness, like, oh, we've spent money on training for 25 years and nothing has changed.

Hmm.

One, I would question that. What would it have been like without your training? Like, You know, but secondly, has it been the type of training that can make a difference? And there's tons of good training out there. I'm not shooting anybody down, but too many systems I talk with do the same thing over and over again and expect different results because people feel comfortable with the vendor or feel comfortable that they're not instigating change or they don't have to take a risk. The companies we work with have Raving advocates that say, I have seen this make a difference and I want to bring this into our organization and I'm willing to put my name on it. I am so confident that it will work. And so as you're looking at how to move forward with learning and development, I just encourage you to not shy away from ROI. It's all measurable. And to hold all your vendors up to ROI, even the ones you're comfortable with. And at the same time that we've got some exciting results that we think some of our interventions can help with.

Yeah. And I wanted to say as well, and it was a little bit of just the run you had. This was a few years back. So I think it was on the back of No Ego, but it was just, I think it was like you were going keynote, keynote, keynote, just No Ego was taking off. And, and I remember people would hear like your 1-hour talk and they were like, yeah, you know, later on they'd be like, I heard Cy Wakeman, or we'd hear them down the road. They're like, I, you know, we've had Cy Wakeman. in our organization. And it was like, oh, I'm like, how many sessions did you do? Or what was that experience like? They're like, oh, she did a 45-minute keynote to kick off our annual event. And it used to just eat me up because I'm like, we have like 32 hours of just really good deep dives into accountability and business readiness to modernize your change approach. And that's really— we had done some of these, but not as consistent, as tested, these 5-part series, adding in the group coaching, adding in our toolkit sessions. Which is where it's a little bit different than group coaching. Sometimes we throw those on there at the end to just come together for an hour, focus on one tool. We do some pre-work and people really get to take a picture of what we work on, take it right back to their teams and say, now I want your input inside the box on how we could innovate given our circumstances. So taking it all the way from like concept to talking about it, to taking the tools all the way back to your next meeting. We just love that reciprocal cycle that I think we're just on a run of getting the message out there. And then now we're loving these deeper dives where we get to really get immersed in the groups that want to take RVL to the next level. So I just wanted to say that I had in my notes here that we're just really proud of this, this new model.

Absolutely. And readiness is like that. Like people would be like, Cy, you're preaching the truth. It all resonates totally. And we're going to continue doing all the things that you tell us won't work in our next 3 years. I think there's readiness where as we're starting to go out and talk about, we've talked about modules. Modernizing your leadership philosophy for a long time. You know, people have to do some research work. They have to try what they've been trying a little bit more. And, but there are great programs out there. I have lots of colleagues in this business that are doing amazing evidence-based work. And we have multiple points of validation. So when I hear Brené Brown or Adam Grant or some of these others, like what they're teaching and training, I'm like, yes, yes, and yes. So it's not, it's not advocating for our program is advocating for you to measure the programs you have and not shy away from ROI. We've— it's been fun for us to see some of those results. So I'm sure that we will link these results and also how to connect with Sanova if you happen to be in healthcare and you want to participate. And what a lot of people have done is send one or two from their organization to experience the program and then said, whoa, We wanna roll this out farther either by sending, you know, 10 of our people through each cohort. That's pretty budget friendly. Or by bringing this back into our organization. So yeah, definitely check it out. So good topic today, Alex.

Love it. Love it.

We always kind of try and end with assignment. I don't know that we always do. But your assignment is look at your programs and what you're already measuring and see if you can find a direct link to what you're concerned about, like burnout. And a before and after with your programs. And I think it's a different type of training evaluation to talk about career satisfaction and talk about not just competencies. Competencies are important, but how did this change the life of your people? Do their jobs feel doable again? Because that's where we really need to focus if we're going to capture hearts and minds of, of the people in our organizations. So be well.

Take care.