Keeping the humanness at work when using Reality-Based Leadership

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. I'm Sy Wakeman. Hopefully you're here because you know at least my name, and I'm hoping you know Alex Dorr, our Vice President of People Evolution. He is here today, and hopefully on every episode going forward with me. We're gonna co-host these things. So hey Alex, how's life in your world?

Life's good this way, and I'm excited for this topic we got today. So I hope everybody's well.

Yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a good one. The topic Alex and I wanted to bring up today is, um, if you practice reality-based leadership and if you really were to take the drama out of your workplace, a big fear is if we take the drama out, do we take the humanness out? Like, That's really the work of the ego, right? Like, people will say, well, gosh, if I diminish drama, then my people just need to show up as robots. And that's ego thinking because it's very polarized. It's very like, gosh, if I do the hard things you're telling me, which the ego doesn't want to have happen, then, you know, we'll just have a robotic workplace where nobody can have feelings or get their needs met, or there can be like no humanness at work. And It's absolutely not the case, but it certainly is a fear. I think you hear it too, Alex. When we talk about ditching the drama, people are like, so we're just going to all, you know, be neutral and never have any emotion and just, you know, be basically robots.

Yeah, it's like say yes to whatever we're asked, not really have feelings. If a strategy shifts out of nowhere, we can't really like feel that, oh, I was— I worked on that project for 8 months. I shouldn't feel that now we're going this way. And, uh, and yeah, and one thing I said recently when I heard this is someone's like, I'm a little nervous to take the humanness out. And I said it, I don't totally agree with it, but I'm like, we're not taking the humanness out. We're trying to take a little bit of that human condition out. Now you can't really take the human—

That's so perfect.

You can't take the human condition out. It's gonna come up. And that's where we sometimes get into patterns that we all have that default to drama. But we're, it's more about raising the awareness of the human condition so we can gently move beyond it. It's not like taking it out, 'cause you can't really do that. But I thought that was the play on words. I was trying to, to just interrupt their thinking a bit to say, we, we can, we can keep the humanness and bring in a couple of RBL tools or ways to think through a challenge differently. So that's kind of how I've seen it come up is, uh, play on those words with people.

I love it. I love it. And I think it's really key because, you know, for some people that get deep into my work, I'm really into internal family, um, systems as far as a therapy concept. And that's where like our, all parts are welcome. Even your ego is not to be rejected or tried to— like, if you're toggled down, that's not the time to be like, oh, I gotta stop thinking that. It's a time to welcome and say, let me listen into what I'm thinking and work to get into inquiry so that we can resolve, dissolve things so that we can resolve things. And I think a way I shock people too is people will say, you know, well, You know, in the, in, in my interpretation of, you know, DEI work, like, I'm gonna bring my whole self to work. And I often respond in a way that's disarming. I'm like, please do not do that. And the reason it's disarming is most people who know me know I work pretty hard at my own biases and trying to be inclusive and leverage people's differences and like, all are welcome here, right? Yeah. But when they say, I wanna bring my whole self to work, and for me, I'm like, don't do that. Please do not do that. Bring your most evolved self to work. And that's the recognition that we all— this human condition, we will come in toggled down at times. And we've got tools so that you can toggle up and make sure that you're bringing your most intelligent self. Like when you're toggled down in ego, you're working with your most primitive brain. And when you're toggled up and you're in brain coherence, you really are using like all of your intelligence, whether it's emotional intelligence or expansive thinking or innovation, you know, because our natural state really is accountability, innovation, and all of that when, when we're toggled up and when the drama's gone. So we're just asking people to not bring in drama. And drama can look like feelings. It's mostly behavior, by the way. It's not really feelings. But drama is usually, if you have feelings, feelings based on story or things that never happened. So once you clean up the story, you clean up a ton of the feelings that come with the story.

Yeah. And I, I, and I've thought about that often, is the feeling as you clean up the story loses a bit of the charge. You still might be— because some people are like, oh, so I use these tools and I edit my story, get to the facts, and I'm like either a robot Or I just go sit in a forest somewhere and drool and like don't take action, you know? Yeah. So it's like you're, you're taking out all the humanness or the— you get into inaction. And what often happens, I find, with like an edit your story tool where you take the big story that's causing the big feelings, get down to the facts, you might be left with still being frustrated, or that is a need in the world. And it gets you so clear that you have to take action and kind of be a better human, or it brings your, your softest part out so you, you can't even help yourself to go help. Like, you have to do it. And so, the humanness actually, I find, comes out in its best way after you ditch the drama. So, it's counterintuitive to those that initially hear our stuff. They're like, I feel like we're starting to take some of the human out of human resources, or we're taking the human out of the workplace. And I find people tap into a whole different part of their humanness when the drama's gone that they didn't even know they had, or it's a bigger heart, or it's bigger impact they have from that. Yeah.

Because when we're into emotions that come out of like drama and story, we're not being helpful. We're judging, or we want to get even, or we want to isolate and, you know, kick people out of our lives. Like, we really only have some primitive options like fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And once you really get in there and you edit your story, like, what do I know for sure? Your natural helping inclination, it naturally leads you to the next question. How can I help? And that's why in my TEDx talk, and if you all haven't seen that, go out to YouTube and check it out. In my TEDx talk, I talked about the three questions that will naturally move you very humanly through a place that you can really make a difference in people's lives. That it's not about burning yourself out and churn, and who's to blame, and feeling victimized, and feeling like you need to play defense and come up with the big strategy. It's really like. What do I know for sure? What could I do next that would help? And then if we were great, like, what would, what would great look like? And that goes with our philosophy of venting. Like, I want people to share their feelings, and a lot of us need to grieve a true loss. And there's a lot of feelings to be had in the world, but most of the time we start to feel a feeling and we intellectualize it into a grievance. Like, I wake up anxious and I'm like, why am I anxious? Well, if I really Really looked at why I'm anxious because we're in a world that has some unsettling things going on, and I care a lot. And so, if I'm being responsible to my feelings, I am saying, given that I'm anxious, how should I move through the world today? Like use my feelings as information. I'm anxious. I'm gonna move through the day more carefully. I'm not gonna expect people to read my minds. I'm going to really make sure that I'm not using alcohol or something else to medicate. I'm gonna today is an anxious day. I'm going to, you know, make sure I do my meditation and then move softly through the world. So instead, what most people do is they go, I feel anxious. And then they go, I wonder why. Oh my gosh, my boss never communicates anything to me, or my organization hasn't kept me psychologically safe. And what that's doing is it's intellectualizing your feelings into a grievance. Mm-hmm. And so with the drama inventing, it's like, I want you to share your feelings and some context around that. But the minute you go into story and justification and speculation and conspiracy theory about like who's trying to do what to whom, that's where you've, you've left it. So what I like to invite leaders to do is validate people's experience. This is hard. This is unexpected. I, I'm uncomfortable. I see that. But don't validate the sense they're making of their experience, because a big part of accountability is helping do sense-making mentoring. And if you don't validate the sense people are making their experience and you invite them in to question their thinking and our tools and curiosity and compassion, you can get them back in a position where they actually could connect this unpreferred reality to a different future. It's our way of getting people back in play. And so you might say, like, I'm really frustrated. I go, I see that. But when you go on to say, and you know, this person's trying to do this on purpose and they're trying to make me look bad and, you know, they don't care about the customer I'm like, timeout.

It's all an elaborate scheme to get someone else a position, you know.

Yeah. Timeout as a leader. I need to invite you to question that. So you see people and you love them up. You see their humanness, but then you call them up to go beyond their human condition. And what you're gonna get down to is who they authentically are, which are good people who are naturally accountable, who care a lot about having impact in the world. And that's the humanness we're trying to uncover that the ego is hiding from us. So you've got to, like, do a lot of revealing there.

It's so well said. And I don't know if for those watching on the video, I'm a little bit of a nerd to the point where like visual tools, which by the way, the ego loves, you know, verbal dialogue, ambiguity, which is why, as I mentioned, it loves venting. And so she kind of talked about, if you can see this, there's one line that's like sharing the feeling. But then the story on this other side, we call this, this means that, or it's a way to see what's happening there. Then the story gets really long with all those judgments, assignments, and motive. And sometimes just seeing this, feelings are great. It's, that's the part we can acknowledge and validate the feeling that you're frustrated. But that other story there is what to investigate. And then from the feeling that's left over, like I said earlier, and what you might still be frustrated. And then the next step, and I think it's the most human thing you can do, is I'm here with you while you're struggling. I see why you're frustrated. And then 2 options: let's impact it or radically accept and let this one go, kind of grace and tolerance. But a lot of times we think we're being the human supporter by letting someone stay in what we call the 3rd option, which is kind of stay and complain about it, stay and hear you vent about it. And it takes some discernment, but I think what people eventually see in a lot of our tools that support someone struggling is that you You're doing the most human thing if you stay in there and hold the center with someone as they go through that process and eventually through one of our tools. And I want to bring up another one. So I'm kind of having a nerdy moment is when someone's like, how do we keep the humanness in the workplace while trying RBL? I one time in a session just was about to answer it because we've already gone through like 3 of our answers we would say. And you might say, well, those sound kind of good. But I eventually—

You know what I would say? People are like, how do we, how do we not take the humanness out of it? I'm like, You just don't. Like,

I remember you said that as a response. I was sitting in that session. I almost died laughing because you're like, why don't we just keep— you keep being a human and then add a tool in there? But one time I brought up our thinking inside the box. I'm like, I could answer this for you, but let's just think through this differently. So I kind of did like a reversal tool within the tool where I'm not going to answer this for them. And the person smiled at me and it was like, well, on one side, let's keep the RBL tools. Let's try those out. And they want to do either or. Can I use RBL or can I keep the humanness? And it's an either or. It's the sucker's choice. So I just said our goal is to have better wellbeing and a beautiful workplace. That's kind of the overall goal. These aren't mutually exclusive. And then cross out the or for and. So it's like, given our goal is a great workplace where we get good results, given RBL seems like you're interested in the option on one side, but you're worried about the humanness, how can we think inside the box? And the person next to the— in the session kind of dropped the mic. It was a colleague, just like dropped the mic because then the person that I did that to, they smiled and kind of the audience smiled because this is their answer. It's the leadership magic is where you work each day to stay human, ask about people's kids, connect with them, build those relationships, and then feel those moments where it's validate your experience and let's get you beyond this barrier. And so the thinking inside the box is my favorite tool to do that. But I almost called them up with that tool within that question there. And so it was like the ego was running from that call to greatness too. And they smiled and kind of thanked me at the end for staying in there. So instead of just answering it like a lot of us leaders do, I was letting them kind of process that and find the sweet spot where the humanness stays and we try a tool. And that's where they, if they're operating in there, they're in the right direction. This is what I was getting at.

And that softly dissolves things. So leaders can engage the ego. I'm going to tell you it's possible. Our tools Just help us clarify reality up in front of you and then let you look at that. You're like, well, wait a minute, now that you've got it out there on paper, that makes no sense. Like, there's got a way— got to be a way that we can, can do both of those. And I think what we need to remember in our workplaces, and the reason that they're challenging, especially right now, is is that most of us are not showing up who we authentically are as humans. Because I think authentically, we as humans are compassionate and kind and curious, and that we want to find win-win solutions, and we want inclusive work environments. No one is really thrilled when there's conflict, and yet we create so much conflict because of our own thinking in our world. That's right. A lot of people are feeling lonely, but what they don't understand is their own judgment is the first thing that separated them out from, from the group. And now they're out there alone. They feel under-supported. And, you know, I believe our natural state is full of emotion, and that emotion can be like gratitude and appreciation and connection and joy and, you know, You know, victory. And, and sometimes I tell the story when people are concerned about this, because I get if you take what we're asking, take the drama out, it feels at times like we're just taking the human out. Just come to work, you know, agree with what we say. Don't, you know, people really, you'll see the ego take our philosophy to extremes. And one time I was at a workshop where I was just really doing some deep work on editing my story and questioning my thinking. And it had been a long day and we were asked to go to dinner together, and we were asked— and our assignment was to just really hold each other accountable to just speaking the truth. No assignment of motive, no assumptions, no judgments. And, you know, I'm like, I'm not a very judgmental person, how hard can that be? So we go to dinner, and the first thing that started to happen was our unconscious selves, our ego coming out, where we're like, oh my gosh, did you hear about Brenda and her husband and they're divorcing? And What is she thinking? And then we all were like, well, I bet she's thinking this, and I know her. And, and so we were way into judgment and story, and we caught ourselves. We're like, guys, we need to center

up.

Yeah, well, and at least like, let's not start out negative. It's so easy to, you know, talk negatively about someone. So then we intentionally tried to be positive. And so somebody says, oh my gosh, like this chicken Is really delicious, and then we started having fun. We're like, actually, it's just chicken. You can't really judge it to be delicious. That's the story. We start laughing, and then somebody's like, "Do we even know it's chicken for sure?" Like, what do we know for sure? And Jeff has said, yeah, the chef has stated that it's chicken, but we don't even know. And it was like, the stars are beautiful. And we're like, well, actually, if we're stating facts, there's. 1.2 trillion stars in our galaxy or whatever. People knew the facts. And what happened was we got super quiet because everything you would bring up to talk about, all that cheap bonding that Brené Brown talks about, everything we bring up to talk about was like, gosh, can't really say that, can't really say that. And for a while there wasn't a lot to talk about. And then What we all started doing naturally is we started talking about our hopes and dreams and what people wanted in the future. Like it was really the topic that was eligible for dinner that night. And the cool thing started happening is when somebody would bring up a topic, they're like, so like let's talk about like what are you guys all dreaming and scheming about? Like what would be an awesome thing that you would like to have happen in your life? And somebody said, you know, gosh, I really do a lot with this charity for water, and I really wanna get more involved when I retire in clean water. And you know what the rest of the table did? They jumped in. How can I help? Somebody's like, I know a person in the Gates Foundation that works on that. I'll introduce you. Everybody started offering up ways to help people's dreams. Dreams. And how we could, and the entire energy shifted. Emotion. Got high again, but it was excitement. It was thinking of possibilities. It was joyful. It was big energy around what if we could?

Well, sounds like action too. Like email. Here's an email. You got it down ready to send when you get back. You know?

Yeah. And and so it really took us from this passive kind of complaining, judging. Emotion, but emotion of, you know, we were even saying things like, well, it just pisses me off when Brenda does X and she should recognize like Steve's a good guy. Like we around the table, it wasn't even our life. We were mad about the choices this, you know, friend who needed our support was making. Ugly side of the human condition. Yeah. But what I loved about that evolution is, is the evolution that has happened on our work team and every team I've worked with to implement RBL. The emotion doesn't leave. The humanness doesn't leave. We just get down to the most beautiful humanness, which is a judgment, but the, the humanness that's helpful. And it's a reset for our teams where you might think you're dealing in feelings and emotion, but what you're probably dealing in is those emotions generated from story. And once you get rid of the story, you get rid of a lot of the emotions. There's not a lot to be angry about in the world. But there's a lot I can get excited about and then step into my point of impact and really make a difference. And that's really the call we're making with reality-based leadership, is let's get this back, transcending our human condition, so that in our humanness we can really plug and play in co-creative ways that really makes this world place and workplace Well, and

the last thing I wanted to connect to something you said earlier is, you know, the first version of the group kind of judging and stuff. There's a lot of conversation. It looks lively, although it's kind of negative. So you feel like in some ways, that's my whole self. Like we're really connecting, getting into like sharing our feelings about that. And you're learning about me because that frustrates me. So you feel like that's the humans coming together. Like if you're looking at that table, like that's a lot of good humanness going on there. Really connecting. But when you look at the difference in the second phase, that's what we're talking about, is like that evolved humanness that many of us think we have but haven't—

Intimate is better intimacy. It was fulfilling. Yeah.

So, um, I feel like that's kind of that lesson there that I haven't heard it from that story said like that, but that's really what we're, we're hoping to point to that's out there. And don't take our word for it, um, check it out for yourself. But a lot of What we've seen at the end of the practice of these tools and some of these philosophies is that beautiful, although it's a judgment, that other way forward.

It really is. And leaders, if you're listening to us, you can't take teams where you have not gone. So get in touch with your own feelings. Grieve what you need to. Feelings, feel your feelings. I have a whole chapter in Life's Messy, Live Happy about feel your feelings. They're good information. But don't trust your feelings. Question your stories. And so leaders, if you aren't able to feel your feelings and resist the urge to intellectualize those into grievances, you can't help your people do that. So use this on yourself first and, and then move forward. We hope you're loving this new, more casual, just Alex and I getting together, talking about things that we talk about when we're together. At the kitchen table. And if you are, we would love for you to rate this podcast, share it, share it with your teams, talk it up out there. We went from No Ego to Reality-Based Leadership, and that switch— we want to make sure we don't lose people along the way. So if you are subscribed to No Ego or Alex's Carvery, those are great. Subscribe now to Reality-Based Leadership. It's gonna be our format that we spend the next couple years in playing. with what works best for all of you. And as always, we'd love your feedback. So, Alex, keep on being human. Just, just don't punish other people with it.

I'm going to chew on this one some more, but this was, this was fun to get into. So I can't wait to hear the feedback.

Awesome.