Legacy driven or Outcome driven leadership with Mike Lee

Hey, welcome everyone to the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. For many of you, you've loved the No Ego Podcast, you love the Carvery, and Alex Dorr and I, the VP of People Evolution at Reality-Based Leadership, have joined forces and we're just bringing you all the power we got under one umbrella. It's called the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast. So before I even get started with this episode that you're gonna love, make sure you're also subscribing to this podcast, you're sharing with your teams, and And of course, we'd always love one of those ratings full of a bunch of stars that keep moving us up that algorithm that no one can figure out. But back to what you're here for. Welcome to the podcast. Most of the episodes, Alex and I have been talking about deeper practice of reality-based leadership and giving you all some tools and helping you know what it is and what it isn't and how the ego can morph it and weaponize it and All the, all the ways our work gets used, sometimes for evil, not good. But we're out there having conversation, helping straighten it out. Then every once in a while, not super often, we bring on a guest. And so today's one of those days. And the guests we bring on are people that are really aligned with our philosophy, and we have a lot of common ground. And so Mike Lee, our guest today, was on— we were on a podcast together and met and had a conversation, and we were just— having a blast riffing off one another and, and the innovation. So I'm thrilled to have Alex here. I'm thrilled to have Mike here. I'll get them introduced in just a minute. But Mike Lee, a lot of people introduce themselves as a speaker, and he is, and an author, and he is. Brand new book out called New Rules of the Future of Leadership. He's all of those things, but those are just ways he gets his message out. What I love most about Mike is, like the many people that I have high regard for, is he's an evidence-based practice person. He knows a lot about neuroscience, a lot about what will work. He challenges conventional wisdom, and he talks a lot about peak performance. And he got this experience in the trenches, spent decades with pro teams and pro players. He has Stephen Curry on his website saying that their time together was really amazing. So he's got this great background, and we're bringing you today some conversation around peak performance and how to be in the moment and use the power of the presence to really have impact in challenging circumstances. So, Mike, welcome on.

Thanks so much for having me. It's good to see both of you. I'm excited to dive in today.

That's perfect. Perfect. And good to have you, Alex. Life good on your end?

Good to be back. I just keep thinking about that testimonial you just said. There's every once in a while as a speaker, you know, consultant, there's Some testimonies you just love to have, and that one's a nice one to have in there.

It's a

beautiful part of basketball.

Maybe that's a great place to start, Mike. Like, how the heck? You were like the way I remember the story, like a college student in your apartment, like deciding you're going to create this awesome business with NBA teams. So, like, how did this even happen?

You had a good memory. So, it all started from one summer basketball camp that I decided to run with a buddy of mine. We were I think it was after my sophomore year in college and we just wanted to provide an opportunity for the kids in the hometown that we both grew up in. And, for context, the town that I grew up in is in the middle of absolutely nowhere. And, what I mean by that is that back then, the roads are different now, we got more 4-lane highways, but you had to drive 3 to 3.5 hours to get to either Minneapolis or Milwaukee. So, When I say in the middle of nowhere, I mean the middle of nowhere. And, the kids had to travel a lot to get quality basketball instruction. So, we wanted to bring something to our hometown. And, that went from one summer basketball camp where we had 100 kids show up the first year to a full-fledged business where we had a training facility in Milwaukee, worked with several NBA players, and ran events all across the world.

Amazing. As a sophomore in college, I love, I love these stories. And what I love most about it is so many people are like, I want to find my purpose, or how do I plan for a business? Like, how do I get in the hustle? And it's so counterintuitive when I'm like, take what you love, find what the world needs, do that, and I guarantee you, you'll find rewards in that, that, um, that combo. But it's not about building a business. It's, it's meeting A need from the heart and being present for the moment right now, and and things will work out. The universe will will evolve you, and you can then help impact other people. So that's a very cool story. So in that process, you really got involved in thinking about peak performance, and and and what I love is when I've read some of your writing about. the disruption or the distraction that even a crowd can be in, you know, the most important moments of a game. And in the most important moments of business, we help people like not get into distraction. I know, Alex, you played college ball and you played in some big moments. I think that's where I'd like to start. Like in the times of uncertainty, like what are some of the core lessons, how to help people stay in the moment, focused, kind of drowning out the noise and just staying focused on what we've all agreed to do as a team. Do you have some wisdom on that? Alex, I'll let you jump in on that. I played 6th grade basketball in 1982, so I'm out on this conversation. I didn't have a crowd to drown out.

Just, just jumping in, I think it's, it's fun because, uh, I don't get to talk in a lot of these venues. There'll be athletes that come up at sessions and they're like, oh, so much of this I wish I had, you know, back in those days, even if it was high school. But That distraction piece is so fun. And, I'd love to hear, Mike, your perspective. But, as we look at drama in the workplace, when I first started out, when I first heard this from Si, it was when I was an athlete and I thought, man, that ditching the drama message, it was so correlated to as you remove the drama, you're back in the zone. And, that was the easiest way I could look at it. And, all the stuff we're doing is just trying to clear all that inertia to just do what's right in front of you and do it simply and cleanly and without hesitation. And I think we— I still see some of that in the work that I do with leaders and whatever our mission or our practices at work each day. I just— that, that's such the ditching the drama. It's like removing what's not needed to just do what's needed. And so, um, that's the connection I see, but I'd love to see some ways that you've brought that into what you've experienced.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways we could answer this. I think at a very high level, I think just incredibly deep levels of preparation allow you to be in the moment. So, you're operating from an embodied state versus one where you're in your analytical mind. I think that applies to all arenas of life. But, another thing that I know is in alignment with your work, and I think we probably have some different terminology around it, but You know, our stress or our challenges, whatever it might be, aren't really about what is actually happening in the moment. The challenge is that we have psychological resistance to what is happening in the moment.

Oh, that's right. I'm going to stop just a second because I love your language. The challenge is not

the

moment. I love your language. I just have to stop you for one second to interrupt you. So keep that thought. I want the listeners to hear your language. What's happening in the moment is not our challenge. It's our psychological resistance to what's happening in the moment. Not even our story added, but most of the time our story is, this is sick and wrong. And it's like resistance. If we can't meet the world as it is and as it comes, and we keep wishing the world were different, 'cause at work, that's what everybody's walking around doing, going, this should be led different. This should be handled different. So anyway, sorry to interrupt. That was so good.

No problem. Yeah, I think that's a— because when we can accept what is and be objective about it, that it allows everything else to flow, right? And, I think one of the biggest challenges we have is this resistance to change. You alluded to it, right? Yeah. The problem with that is that change is literally in the definition of life. And so, If we're going to resist something that is going to be constant in our life, we're always going to be blocking ourselves from our most authentic self coming through. And so, I think that's a key thing. It's like when you use a sports analogy, right? If I have a bad call, if the ref makes a bad call, if I miss a shot, if I make a mistake, in the moment, I'm psychologically resisting what has happened in the past. It's pulling me out of the present moment, which is the only place that I can take action to create the future, to run the next play, to be fully present in the next meeting, to be strategic on whatever initiative we're working on, or be creative in that process. Right? If we're in psychological resistance to what is, we're never going to be able to be in that present moment.

What a great way to say it. I talk a lot about the unpreferred reality. The minute you just neutralize it by calling it not my favorite or unpreferred, so many of us spend so much energy arguing with it or wishing, you know, that it won't happen again, the future is different. And if you can come to that space between what just happened and what's next, it is in that present moment that we have the ability to connect something unpreferred with something different. Like, that really is the space that we're present. The one thing you said about somatically embodying so that it becomes muscle memory, you know, that's why you shoot 7,000 free throws so that when you're at the line in the big moment, it is just one more, you know, free throw. We are challenged with leaders practicing reality-based leadership because they want to go to class, they want to read about it, they want to listen to our podcast, they want to study it. They don't do the free throws, free throws. And that's our tools, like practicing them in the mess imperfectly every day so that they become muscle memory and getting people out of learning. And that's why in development we talk about only 10% of your development is classroom, like 20% feedback, and 70% is experience over and over and over. And so I just wanted to really tag on that message that embodying this and having— committing it to muscle memory is, is so important. And we've gotten so intellectual in developing leaders. It's so mind, and we aren't doing enough practice and enough, enough of that. So Alex is constantly preaching the tools like go do the free throws, stop thinking about doing the free throws.

So you got me thinking of, because I played 2 years overseas, and that there's a message in there that it's experience I'll never forget. I had an older mentor that had been playing pro for like 10 years, my roommate over there. And as he watched me play, redheaded kid from England, just super smart, very quiet. He watched like my first 2 practices and I had like all these moves and I was overthinking it and trying all these things, making these like— and he came over and he just called timeout and he's like, I'm gonna— I want you to cancel all the moves that you like know right now. I want you to get an A move, a B move, and a C move. Meaning all of your stuff you're doing, you're gonna have a go-to, like an A. That's the first thing you do whenever you catch the ball, you just shoot it like that. And then your B is if you go to shoot that and there happens to be a body in front of you, you go to your B move. And then if they happen to know and catch you there, then you go to your last, your last counter. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I've practiced like 25 years of my life and I've never been taught like you can just have 3 moves you go to every single time, no matter what, and they get 99% of it done and get you a wide open shot. And I think about our tools that same way as I've been with you a long time, Sai. You're like, don't get fancy and clever, just learn the S-Bar. Just edit your story and just take next right action. And it's like, no, it's got to be more than that, Cy. Leadership's got to be more than that. And it was just like Dan, my roommate, who's like, A, B, C, you'll never need a D move. It's like, it's the funniest thing, but I've seen that lesson come out from you, from really good leaders. They have it so simple. It's almost boring how they lead, but they're not boring themselves. But I think about that often. And I bet, you know, Mike, being around a lot of professionals, they go back to the fundamentals. I know Kobe Bryant was back by the basket just shooting baskets even though he's the best player in the world and you've been around that. So, that's just something interesting I was thinking about as you said that.

I have so many things that I want to say about that. One of our core philosophies from our basketball company was be great at simple things. And, talks about exactly what you're talking about, Alex. We used to say, You want to have a go-to move, a counter move, and a counter to the counter. And, that's it. Just get great at simple things. And, this might be the worst thing that I could say when I have a new book coming out, but I look at my book and it's like these are very simple things. But, the question is, are you actually doing them? Are you actually great at them? Are you practicing them every single day? That's a good point. And, the truth is that The fundamentals will take you a long, long way. And then once you have a solid base in the fundamentals, that's what actually gives you the ability to improvise, right? That's what gives you the ability to innovate, right? So like, if you— an example would be if I don't have self-awareness as a leader, it's going to be really difficult to even implement a lot of the things that you guys teach, right? Because I don't have the awareness, the self-awareness, the relationship awareness, which doesn't allow me to have situational awareness. And now I can't implement any of the strategies that are in this 300-page book that I just read because I don't have awareness. The second thing I would say is one thing that we use in the basketball world, and then I definitely have brought it into the business space because I think there's a lot of crossover is mental rehearsal, right? I think we— you talked about 10% is the learning, 20% is feedback, and 70% is actual practice, right? Well, the challenge with that is like, how often can I put myself into that 70% in a controlled environment, right? Yeah. And so, one way that we can speed up our skill development, our learning development is to practice mental rehearsal. And, the research shows that the areas of our brain that get activated, there's a big overlap in the areas of our brain that get activated when we are visualizing something, when we get into a deep state, when we can vividly visualize an experience. Versus actually physically being there and practicing it. And so, I'll share a quick story with you. There's a kid that I used to work with that played at the University of Wisconsin. His name is Bronson Caning. He played in a couple Final Fours with Wisconsin. He was a pretty iconic college basketball player. He's not playing anymore, actually speaking on mental health and trauma and Going down a different route, which I'm super proud of him for the journey that he's on. But when he was playing, he texted me one day. I think he was a junior, senior. He was a senior in college, and he texted me one day and he said, "Can we chat?" And I was like, "Well, I wonder what this is about." Like I don't think anybody likes to hear those three words when when you get a text from somebody because normally it's about something not good that's going on. And so we get on the phone and he said, "I'm really nervous about our." Upcoming game that we have against Indiana, and I asked him why. Like what? What's what's the big deal with Indiana? He said, "Well, I've never played there or never played well there my entire life, and we've never won against Indiana ever in my career." And this is the last time that last time that I'm going to play there. So I'm really in my head about this upcoming game. And he was he was a super super super open-minded kid, and I asked him about how he felt about trying a visualization exercise before. they played the game 7 days from then. And, he agreed to do it. And, for the next 7 days, he sat for 10 minutes in the morning and just visualized himself at Assembly Hall, which is where they were going to play against Indiana. And, I just had him visualize the smell of the popcorn, the smell of the gym, the colors in the arena, what the student section would be doing. Right. And then, had him visualize himself making the plays that he wanted to make out on the court. And, in the first 90 seconds of the game, he hit a 3 from the corner, came off a ball screen, hit a 3, and then hit another 3 from the wing. And, I think Wisconsin went up 13 to 0 and Indiana called a timeout. And, he went on to— he went 5 for 5 from the 3-point line. I don't know how many points that he had, but He played his best game that he ever played against Indiana. And so, I share that because it's a tangible demonstration of the power of mental rehearsal. And, I think bringing it to the workspace, it's like if I have to go into a tough meeting, I can visualize myself in that meeting demonstrating the skills that I want to show up with, the characteristics. that I want to show up with. Maybe I want to show up in that meeting with more empathy and compassion and understanding. I can embody that from a visual standpoint and then I can bring it into that meeting 10 minutes later. And, I think it can go a long, long way.

What a cool technique.

Yeah.

And, I want to point out to people the difference between visualization because there's so much research about injured athletes who didn't lose any conditioning Because they were doing visualization actually increases like their blood pressure. Like it's as if you know they've worked out, but a lot of us confuse ruminating thinking, anxiety, worry, imagining the worst or dreading or with with visualization. And it's not just positive thinking. Is really what post-traumatic growth is about is imagining multiple possible possibilities that are positive. Imagining yourself. actively involved in showing up in ways that you can have positive impact. And you'll feel the difference because if you're ruminating, you'll start to get irritable and angry, and the ego is very alive, and you're worrying, and it's, it's a stressor. If you're positive visualizing, it's your— it's not energy depleting, it's energy building, and it's a different type of energy. It's an imaginative energy. And I think that's so important because we aren't hopefully put every minute of every day in some of those situations so that you can do that, that mental rehearsing. That's a very cool suggestion.

You know, Sy, a thought I had as that was going on is the book I'm writing focusing on our tools. And I've just been fascinated by these are visual tools we use to change the energy if it's focused on why we can't, why we shouldn't have to. We've gotten back to saying leaders, like, if you don't want to get eaten alive, you got to come into your meetings or your one-on-one with an agenda. So, it's kind of writing what we're going to talk about, you know, setting the stage for the meeting, a plan, and that's part of the agenda, a tool, and then it ends with who doing what by when. And so, it's— I've seen this visualization piece. Maybe it takes a little bit also visualizing what that might look like. Yeah. And if you're aware, like you're rolling out a change, there's going to be some fear, maybe some uncertainty, maybe some clarity needed or resistance because, as you already mentioned, Mike, Most change comes with part of your group in resistance. So knowing that human behavior, that human condition, one of our tools that we would teach is like a negative brainstorming tool to absorb that feedback, but still manage the energy into how we could. I think adding that visualization—

Sure.

Rehearsing your kind of start of the change announcement, rehearsing and noticing like where someone, or not that you want to judge, but who might jump in with that typical resistance devil's advocate. And just lovingly being able in your mind to see how you might move that into a tool to keep the meeting on track. I think bringing that in with the tools we talk about in Reality-Based Leadership could be like a win-win combo there to make sure you're prepped, not scared in case it goes into uncharted territory, but you've seen how this might go in your mind and just, it's that preparation. So I wanted to add that because I've been thinking a lot about who doing what by when, coming with a plan and having a tool ready in case your visualization goes differently than you thought.

And, the tools are available.

That's such an important point because I think lots of times when we talk about visualization, it's only visualizing the positive outcomes. But, there's a lot of power in being able to visualize all possible scenarios and then how do I respond when X happens, right? Because then you are getting mental rehearsal in the adversity, not just in some fantasy about how this is going to play out because the truth is it's probably not going to play out without any adversity, right? And so, being able to manage or to visualize the potential roadblocks, barriers, challenges, and then how do I respond to those, it can be a super powerful add-on to that.

It is powerful. And, in medicine, we do that a lot. We visualize if this happens, how do we respond if this— that's part of the the training we go through before we have to— hopefully we don't have to use some of those skills. I think it's super important too that our tools are almost a visualization and how we could as a team as well. I love that concept. And I also want to revisit getting back to not being fancy and clever and being simplistic. There's no room for the ego in the simplistic. The ego loves to overcomplicate, and the ego loves fancy and clever, and the ego loves to have a list of excuses about why we probably couldn't And whether it's, you know, sticking with your basics and that muscle memory or that visualization, it transcends ego and just really says, you know, if I'm visualizing the impact I could have, I'm no longer visualizing, which is really worrying, about how other people are going to, you know, victimize me and be the villain. I am visualizing— it brings the focus back on me and what I can do, how I can help in this moment, rather than, you know, like, I've never won at Indiana and, you know, the refs are all always like the easy focus with worry and dread and ego is to focus on all the ways that you're gonna be the victim and you'll probably be villainized, rather than focus on the ways how I can co-create something different. I think it's so important in the world right now that we get out of this polarized, you know, the dice is already rolled, the outcome's already determined. It's not. It's like we can really change the game on Friday, and it's about how we show up.

Yeah, no question about like talking about simple things. It's like we're either focusing on problems or solutions. It's like, right, it's like there are no neutral thoughts, there are no, no neutral actions, right? Something's either moving us towards something or keeping us stuck in the past. And it's like, it's simple, but like, are we actually doing it? And I ask myself this, right? These are all things that I'm practicing.

And part of the cycle that I'm hoping people get more comfortable with is you will mess this up daily. The cycle— what, you know, too often we think, oh, if we, if we do it perfectly, we won't have the downs, we'll never fall off, we'll never lose the mantra, we'll never fall off. And I'm working right now with a lot of people I coach to get them more accepting of the messiness. Like, you will go back in and date, you know, someone that had a few red flags and learned the lesson, and then you mine that for growth. But it's not in the— the success is not in the living a perfect life and executing this perfectly. The success is riding that cycle and mining it for your learning. And that's the accountability cycle. So in the new book, you talk about some new rules. I know you generalize a lot of great learning from areas like sports performance and neuroscience. You kind of bring a lot of that together. But when you talk a little bit about what's in the book, and I love that you said, you know, promoting a book and it's not all new revolutionary. People need multiple points of truth before they do settle into the fact it is that simple. Like, you can't lead somebody where you go. And I love it. I love when they hear— that's why I bring guests on. Don't just take my word for it. You know, Mike has been out there and other people have been out there. But what are some of the favorite things you do point out in the book to get people excited about, um, getting this book ordered? Because it's amazing.

Yeah. I think one thing to point out is the principles, for the most part, they've been around. I've used them in my own life businesses for a while. And the reason I called it New Rules is because in the past, I think they were nice-to-haves.

Oh, gotcha.

But in today's world, I think they will be the new rules, right? Especially with a focus on some of the younger generations, right? And so, that leads me to the first First pillar in the book is about being purpose-driven, right? And I think we live in a world where the barrier to entrepreneurship has never been lower, right? So you have to give somebody a compelling reason why they should come work for you, right? It's not that difficult to go out and, you know, especially if you're a kid right out of college, you don't have any overhead, you don't have a family, right? It's not that hard to figure out how I can have complete freedom and figure out how to monetize a YouTube channel or build an affiliate Amazon store or whatever it is and make the same amount of money that I would at an entry-level position. Right.

It's a great point. And engagement. Yeah. You have to give people something compelling.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's an advantage, right? That, that's We can't create that on our own. And I think inherently we want to contribute to something bigger than ourselves with a community that's, that's doing that.

Which I think is important because I think a lot of people in retention and recruitment think their competition is what other companies are offering. And so it gets kind of groupthink, like, well, we give health insurance, they give health insurance. That's not our competition. Our competition And I've never thought about it this way, is that the the barriers to entrepreneurship are low. There's a lot of people adopting a minimalist lifestyle. There's a lot of people really looking at quality of life rather than achievement and title, and you know, they're willing to trade a lot less. The currency of title and achievement and some of that stuff is is really deflated for a lot of folks, and so. I love the first pillar, that that's not what you're competing with. You've got to, you've got to put something out there bigger. I too, I like the take on new rules because before they were nice to have, like self-reflection and evolving yourself. That was like, oh, if you got a leader who did that, you're like, that was the leader in my career. That was spectacular. And now a leader can't lead anyone where they haven't been themselves. If I'm not a self-reflector, I can't expect you to be comfortable with self-reflecting on your part in, you know, maybe our current lack of results. If I don't have self-compassion, I can never show up compassionately for you. If I haven't tended to my own intimacy and balance, work-life balance, then I can't co-create something with you that will be the same. And I think a lot of leaders do this skimming thing where we learn it and then we try and apply it to the people we lead. And we don't have that license anymore. Leading is more about, um, let me show up in the world in an evolved, centered way, working on myself. And only can I make the invitation, would you join me? I can't mandate it. I can't, you know, demand it. I can't, um, I can't expect you to be farther on the path than I am. And I think that's a big change, um, that was nice to have before, that's like core requirements. And there's a whole bunch of new competencies, core requirements, the ability to hold the center while people go through kind of their processing, the ability to, you know, make invitation rather than mandate. You know, the power of a leader isn't what you tell people, it's what you get them thinking about. Like the ability to foster good mental processes. There's so many new competencies that are more mandatory today, I think. I love the premise of it.

I love all those. I love everything that you just brought up. I think like, you know, the shift, one of the shifts that's happening is like, no, and I shouldn't say that it's happening. Like it's been like this forever, but it's just people don't want to be motivated. They want to be inspired. Right. And it's like, you just brought up like inviting people instead of enforcing mandates. It's, and, but we, again, we can't do that unless we are living that ourselves, right? And, I think, I don't know if we want to go there or not, but in A Course in Miracles, he talks about to teach is to demonstrate, right?

Yes.

And, we have to, if there's a disconnect between what we say and our actions, that is the number one way from my experience coaching, And, the work that I'm doing now is to create a disconnect between you and the people that you lead. And, that goes back to the self-awareness piece. We have to be aware of the behaviors, the energy, the skills, the characteristics that we are actually demonstrating because whatever we model, we are going to get from our people.

Absolutely. And, too many people take that, the ego takes it down to this thing like, I should be willing to make coffee, you know, as much as I expect others to make coffee. I'm like, no, like, what? No, that's a horrible use of a senior vice president's time. It's not about that type of demonstration. It's a demonstration. Can you self-reflect and make an amend? You're not gonna— we can't wait until leaders completely evolve and come back perfect godlike human beings, and then they have the right to make the invitation. It's in the mess. It is, I'm making the invitation. I have these areas that I don't feel very competent in. I need help. I need the team thinking clearly about this. I have some methods. But really being able to also, you're not going to show up perfectly, but show up with awareness. And a new skill set, I think, for leaders is the ability to make amends. And a lot of leaders don't have that ability. Like, you know, I overstepped yesterday, or I wasn't fully curious about what you've been bringing to me over the last few years, and I want to apologize. I want to get more curious. How can I make this up to you? How can we move forward together differently? I think the more we evolve ourselves and the more we can report out to others what we're working on ourselves, where we know our blind spots are, The more vulnerable we can be, the more authentic, the better this is going to be. Just, I heard a leader the other day tell their team in healthcare, I'm scared. I'm scared about what is showing up at our doorsteps because I, I don't know how we're going to move through this. And it changed the entire energy of the team because the team was like, leader, what are you going to do? Like, leader, we need more staff. And the leader's like, I don't know where to get staff. I'm scared. And can you join me? And people don't have to overwork or be unsafe, but like, can we start from a vulnerable position? I'm scared too. I love our community and we don't have what we need to serve them. And some people will be harmed. And that sucks when you go to college to help people, you know, get better. And that took everyone from complaining to ideating, just the, the admission of I'm scared. It was amazing.

Yeah, I love what you're talking about because I think the truth is, is that, is that people want to be empowered, right? And by being vulnerable and asking for help, we actually give the— give people the permission to like step into a new role, to take more ownership in what, what they're doing. And probably, you know, I think a huge piece of leading, especially in today's world, like there's so much There's so much information, there's so much data, there's so much going on. Like, it's insane to think that we have all the answers. And I think being vulnerable about that allows people to, to take more ownership in their work. And that in turn improves motivation. It improves their engagement and retention levels, right? Because they actually inherently want that.

Yeah. And the key here is, because when we studied resiliency, it wasn't the most persevering or the one with most grit. And that's a big part of resiliency work, right? I don't want to discount the great work that's been done on that. But we found it was the people that were willing to crowdsource, to ask for help early and often. And I think resiliency is important about asking for help, saying, I don't know the answer. But as a leader, we have to keep the optimism and we have to keep hope alive. And that's where I like to follow with, but I am confident that as a collective, we are genius. I am confident that this group can figure it out or we can make progress. And so I think as leaders, part of being accountable is to say, I'm scared, or, you know, I'm going through some depression, or I'm going through some anxiety, or that really, you know, for some reason that triggered me, even as a leader who's human, that broke my heart. And I'm a little shaky right now. And then being able to say, but I really believe in us, and I believe in the genius of, of the collective and normalizing our humanness without using as an excuse. And so I think accountability, a new form of accountability, is accountability to my own self-care, my own authenticity, and my own integrity. And that accountability is to say, this isn't my best mental health day right now, and I'll take accountability for that by making the proper space for myself and by asking for help. And our vulnerability is really closely tied to our personal accountability because being accountable is showing all of me and being able to take the steps necessary to get my needs met, set boundaries. You know, so I think all this stuff going on in mental health today is a new form of accountability because a lot of people have outsourced their happiness. And they aren't accountable to their own mental health and their own progress towards staying healthy, getting the right sleep, getting the right help, you know, talking about it, asking for help. So to me, it's a big piece of personal accountability I think we're now just getting into. It isn't just whose butt's on the line and did you deliver results for the company. It's did you take care of yourself and did you help take care of others? And were you a healthy partner or were you someone they would collude with and vent with? Like an accountable person. knows what to do when a friend comes in in need. And, you know, they don't enable. They say, I can hold space for you. I'll support you. I'll be here.

Sai, I wanted to jump in with all of this. I just think it's beautiful. The mantra we've been sitting with, you and I, the last couple of years is that loving people up and calling people up to greatness. And as you, Mike, you said, like, these are the new rules. They used to be nice-to-haves. It had me thinking. I've been sitting with this, like, if those are now like the— they're the new rules because They used to be nice to haves. I wonder if what's flipped now. So if these are the new rules, what are the new nice to haves? Because it's kind of a joke, but I saw so many people were focused on like loving people up, or they're like doing you know over rotated on empathy, but it's actually sympathy, and they're listening their teams a lot and allowing venting, and it's a lot of that. They're forgetting like the call to greatness, where it's like yes, we're gonna build our culture, and we're gonna be close with people. We're gonna connect and be human. And bring our whole self. But then I always say, are we still trying to get business results? They're like, oh yeah, if we have time for that, we might still get results for the organization that pays us a paycheck. So I'm always a little worried. And Cy and I try and operate in this sweet spot that's like, love people up, build those relationships. But we got to remember, like, we're in here for the potential of the organization. And I find like we've had a few funny moments, Cy and I, the last few years where like, Cy, in one call there was like a lot of talk about loving people up and it was needed. And then I like asked in this session I was listening, she's like, so what happens when someone brings up a business idea? Oh, well, how can you focus on business when there's all these things going on in the world? So I think there's a certain group as well that like the love and the humanness, they also want to get back to like getting some cool stuff done in the world. So I think all this can help us. But then a little bit of a leader is like, let's get back in and let's work on something together within this organization, trying to produce something in the world that like really makes a difference for a bunch of others. I'm not saying it's not happening, but I found that that sweet spot to sit in is always some tension you're playing with. So I don't know if that changes anything we're talking about, but I wanted to add that counterargument there that you can bring that in a little bit. This love people up, call them up. I've just been sitting with that.

I think empathy is— I maybe shouldn't say this, but I'm gonna say it anyways. I think empathy is so overrated. Which— To me, it's about compassion. I mean, it's like there's empathy, like feeling what somebody feels, but then when I bring compassion in it, it's I feel what you feel and I'm going to hold space for you and I'm going to allow you the process of this, whatever it is. But then, I'm also going to— with compassion, now I'm challenging you to get to that next level, right? And I think empathy has its place, but compassion's where it's at. Compassion is, all right, I feel what you feel, but are we going to sit here and be in this space forever? No, it's like, I feel what you feel, but let's get to the next place. Let's get to the next level. We can't just sit in this place of empathy forever, right? And so, I think that's like, that's, that was one, one big thing that I got from a lot of the basketball coaches I was around is like, they didn't really have empathy, but they had, they had compassion and that compassion allowed you to actually challenge people more and hold them to higher standards and hold them to higher levels of accountability.

Yeah. And the compassion, you know, when I study in some of, whether it's Course in Miracles and Buddhism and stuff, compassion Really, it's our 2 concepts together. It's empathy. I see you're struggling. And then it is, um, so given that you're a human struggling and your way to date hasn't worked, what would you like to do differently? And how can you make that happen? And the compassion is that balance between loving people up and calling people up. And I, I love what you're saying. It's like, um, a lot of people are focused on empathy. Mm-hmm. But I would tell you, the beautiful things in my life have came from people who gave me a moment's empathy and then said, let's look at your part in this, and let's look at how you can move through the world more skillfully. And what is it that you want? And I'm like, well, I want a really healthy relationship. Okay, well, let's look at your part, and then let's look at your choices and where you need to grow next and how you need to evolve and how you need to work on yourself. And then potentially something else will come into your life. And I'm like, Thank you. Compassion is healing because it's somebody else's belief in that you could do better because you already are better. It's like you have forgotten who you are and you can do better. And I think that's the most compassionate is to say, I see greatness in you and I'm about to call you up to that. And those have been the people in my life. You know, I didn't go to therapy for empathy. I should go back. I really did. I just picked really good therapists, so I hardly ever got any. They were just like, oh, girlfriend, you, you've been, you know, you know your part in this. And if you want something different, then do something different. I'm like, dang it.

Yeah, that's, that's, uh, I feel like a common thread with some of the challenges that I hear about therapy, but, uh, that's a whole nother conversation.

It's a whole nother conversation. We're starting to wrap up. What else do you want? I mean, there's We've talked about awesome core concepts. What else? I know that you're out there speaking. You've got this book that just came out. We'll put a link in the show notes to New Rules for the Future of Leadership. I love that. But if you had like some parting kind of like, hey leaders, here's a couple of things that would be really helpful for you, what would they be?

I think one thing that I talk about in the book is shifting from outcome-driven leadership to legacy-driven leadership. And what I mean by that is I think the old paradigm where there's a sole focus on KPIs and shareholder profits is dead, right? The younger— what's that?

I said, we hope so.

Well, I think that the organizations that don't evolve to this, to this belief, or they're going to die because the younger generations are going to come in and they're, they're, they want something different. It's a completely different expectation of the places that they work, the companies. It's, and it's not just about the, it's just not about the work culture and what people get to do for a living. It's also people are making buying decisions based on these things. Right, based on whether or not this is a purpose-driven company or not. Like, if I can go into the store and I got product X over here and they have no purpose behind the organization and I have this other company or this other product over here, right, that's a purpose-driven organization that costs more money, by the way, I'm going to buy the one that has a social cause, right? Yeah. This is not just about the work. It's about— I think it's a complete mindset shift that starts at the top with leaders, right? And it reflects on not only the organization, but the products they develop and the services they provide. So, going back to what I was talking about from outcome-driven to legacy-driven leadership is I think lots of times we get to the end of our lives or our careers and that's when people start to think about legacy. But, the truth is that legacy actually creates intention and purpose in each moment. My legacy is determined by what I do in the present moment. It's about how I'm showing up in the present moment, not about what I get 10, 20, 30 years from now.

Yeah, it's not makeup work you can do on your deathbed. It's not— you can't like go back and go, now I shall leave a legacy. Nope.

Yeah, exactly. It's, it's being created right now. And so I think that that's a huge shift that, um, that leaders can make. And I have some exercises in the book that, uh, can help people, uh, on that process.

And what I love about the book is you do have exercises, you have application. But what I most love about the book is I talk to so many HR leaders and leaders, and a lot of things is written about what this generation needs or what this generation values or what, you know, how they're different. And it's always like us against them. Very few talk about how the organization needs to evolve and how leaders need to evolve to deliver on that equation. It's not a, you know, oh, you're 28. Let me check my list. I should give you, you know, more time to go whitewater rafting. Like, that, that is such an ego. Like, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And there's so much victim stuff that comes out with KPIs because it's like, you know, I wanted to treat my people well and build something cool, but we had to make our goals. It's like, that's victim stuff. If you're a true leader, you— making the goals is a measurement of how aligned you were and how great everybody felt about, you know, the, the whole concept involved. And, and, and so what I love about what you bring up the book is you really are saying, let's just not talk about how people are different. Let's not talk about how we're going to disappoint one another by generation. Let's talk about how we need to become something different together to be able to foster the next generation of us, not of, you know, Gen Z or Gen Next or How are we going to foster the next generation of us that's more sustainable and that really meets the evolution taking place in people, that it can still be satisfying and attractive and, you know, bring people in for a bigger cause? How can we form that? And I think those are the conversations we need to be having. We're having too much about what generations like, and I'm like, end that conversation. Let's have another one about how do we co-create a workplace that really nurtures us, nourishes us, and Brings out the best in us so that we can impact some of the world challenges that we're faced right now.

Yeah, I think one hard truth that a lot of leaders probably don't want to hear is that you're the one who has to change.

Yes.

Not the people that you're leading.

Every question I get, they go, Sy, what do you do with an employee that does this? They're like, well, what are you doing with yourself? Like,

You have to, you have to meet people at the level that they're at, right? If you want to elevate your influence and impact, like you have to meet them where they're at.

And that takes a bigger skillset than a lot of leaders think, to meet people where they are and to be able to intentionally invite them and bring them along to a new place. Like we want people to adjust to us. That's been the privilege of leadership, right? Is people have to adjust to us. The biggest problem with leaders is they want people to adjust to them. And it takes a skill set to help people come their way if they're representing the way, you know, in reality that we need to go. But, uh, yeah, it's a real call-up for leaders. So, well, as we wrap up, how people— how can people find out more about you?

Best place to connect is on LinkedIn at Who Is Mike Lee, Instagram's at Who Is Mike Lee, or mindshiftlabs.com.

Perfect, perfect. And folks, hopefully we've given you a lot of action items. Um, check out the book, it really is a good one. You, you all know I don't recommend crappy books. I recommend very few, and I was glad to be, um, someone who endorses Mike's book. And Alex, do you have anything to end with?

No, I just, I love these conversations, and, um, I just think this balance of loving people up, calling people up— and, uh, Mike, we appreciate your time, and, um, Always here for you and keep doing good work out in the world.

Awesome. Thank you, Mike.

Thanks, guys. Appreciate you having me on.