Loud drama or silent drama at work? Here's the difference.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Reality-Based Leadership Podcast with me, Cy Wakeman, and Alex Dorr, our VP of People Evolution at Reality-Based Leadership. And because this is a new podcast, you've loved No Ego, you've loved The Carvery, you've loved all of our past podcasts, we need you to go back out and rate this one and, um, you know, share it and love it up so that we can continue to bring you great, great new episodes. And so we're glad that you're here. This is our new joint venture to move away from just the no ego topic and really talk about how we apply Reality-Based Leadership in our work. Alex and I are out every single day preaching and teaching and, and helping people get on board with Reality-Based Leadership. So hey, Al, how are you?

Good to be back. Life's good this way. And love doing this where we just bring a topic and, and see where it goes.

We've had some fun topics lately. The topic I want to talk about today, it's a note I took a while back. And I used to hear it, and you're hearing it a lot. But, you know, we are drama researchers. We talk about drama in the workplace. And I'm always thrown off a little bit with those times that people— and it's happened to you recently a lot— where people are like, well, you know, actually, we don't have a lot of drama. And you're like, oh my gosh, is this like a zen workplace? Like, have we found the, you know, the laboratory for reality-based leadership?

I'm often like, what was I up here talking for? We should have gave you the mic because I don't know how to figure this out. Yeah.

Exactly. Teach us. So that's the topic I thought we'd throw out for today is like, at times when we talk about drama and there are people who are telling us they don't have that much drama in their workplace, or at least that's their perception. Like, do you think that's really true that there are drama-free workplaces out That'd be so awesome.

Yeah, yeah. I, I brought that up because sometimes in our short keynotes, we just hit on some of the what I would call loud drama. And that's like the ego, the venting. Um, some, some of you like the BMW driving, bitchy moaning, whining. And in some, you know, certain types of positions or certain, um, levels of leadership are like, we don't have as much of that, or they've done a good job of Being more problem-solving focused. And, and I call that the loud drama that people— it gets people laughing. It's kind of obvious. Then I bring in this idea, you might be missing some of the silent drama. And without going too much into that detail, some of those areas are like lack of alignment to where the organization's trying to go as far as strategies, processes, new goals, restructuring, where you don't really bring up a big tussle in the meeting, but it's this subtle resistance along the way. And then I often hear that silent drama is like a resistance to change where implementing new technology, new processes, and we don't fully lean in or fully get in there to risk mitigate and bring all of our expertise into it. And so you just kind of stay back, play it safe, or it's like, I'm a top performer, I don't really need to do it. And I see that's actually what is the source of drama that we didn't get to talk about in the keynote, but that they're missing, as that might be what actually is hindering some of the group. So I don't know if that's ever been your thought when that happens, Cy, or what you tend to notice when someone does that.

Well, first of all, I love the language that you're putting around this because I think automatically we think about drama, you know, just like when we think about extrovert versus introverted, like we don't necessarily have anything more than the soundbite. And we study drama, and drama is energy that is taken away from the workplace that could be useful. It's anything that goes away from wellbeing and results. And I do think that when we start to talk about drama and waste, people automatically go to kind of the people that are loudly complaining or venting or—

The water cooler.

Yeah, are taking kind of, heck no, we won't go. And we really invite people to look at the waste in their organization, like, What is zapping your energy? What is hurting your creativity? What is— and, and I have had it where people are— most of the time when it happens, quite honestly, is I'm selling in drama-free workplaces, and the HR people are like, well, we don't really have a lot of drama. Everybody just kind of does their work and, and works together. And I want that to be the case. I want these Zen-filled workplaces. But when I ask them, so then you're getting the results you want? They're like, well, no, actually we're not remaining competitive in the real world. I'm like, so your engagement's really high? And they're like, well, no, actually, you know, buy-in's a little low. People kind of sit back. You know, when we measure their accountability, commitment's low, resiliency is high. And I'm like, wait a minute. A lot of the drama profile isn't just mad people talking angrily about hating their bosses. And so I love that you talk about loud and soft drama because drama can be very subtle. And sometimes it's identified in some of the research in gender differences, where some people— and again, gender is such a fluid concept right now, but just the way we identified in some of the research, you know, a lot of people, whether it's gender or introverted, extroverted, their drama can be invisible to you. It may be, instead of complaining about you, I just write you off. Mm-hmm. And I don't include you. It can be more microaggressions that you don't see outwardly, but somebody on your team feels, you know, definitely around the table. And this happens a lot with people that are more into engineers and scientists. Like, they're like, I'm just gonna do my work and not worry about anybody else, at the very time we need them to play well with other people and be inclusive and inviting. And a lot of that drama is kind of the quiet drama. So I do see—

And as those organizations—

People say—

Like enterprise-wide thinking and partnerships and sharing knowledge, but they've taken that stance of, I'll just do my work and kind of lock in. And that's where it's kind of, you're not aligned with your organization strategies, right?

Exactly. And that's what I love about you, what, how you referred to our sources of drama. There is the ego drama, which can be pretty aggressive or, you know, Easy to spot. But there's the accountability drama where people are, you know, they love to identify the problem but not be part of solving the problem or moving it forward. Or like you said, alignment, or like lack of buy-in, um, or lack of inclusivity. And so I think drama in the workplace, if you want to get to the quick definition, it's the obvious. But I think we really need to get to a lot of that covert behavior that harms well-being or results. I mean, that's the bottom line.

Yeah, yeah. I— and there's another part I want to add that I, I, as I was going through some of that breakdown or just reflecting after the session, that it might actually be the case though, like teams operating on all cylinders, as they say, clarity is there, we're in the zone, like those beautiful moments we all have from time to time when it just feels like everything's in place and we're We're going in the right direction. And, uh, but I often bring up the next step is sometimes when it doesn't feel like there's a lot of drama, there's another layer that could be you're, you're, you're not challenging your team enough. Yeah. And, um, and, and, and that's the last thing to think about is maybe everyone like, it's pretty good around here and we don't really ask the hard questions or, you know, push a little bit further on, on that conversation or have that healthy tension. that leads to innovative ideas. And so there's a part in there where I've added, if that is the case, you might be where our goals are set too low, and we were not really, you know, stretching our team as much as we could. So I don't know if that fits in there as well. But that's the next thing I often go to is, is can we take it to the next level? Is our team just kind of going through the motions?

Yeah, I like exploring all aspects of this, because what we ask people to do is look at drama and look at the amount of drama on their teams and the amount of emotional waste that individuals and teams are bringing to the table. And we have all kinds of reactions. We have, oh, we don't have much drama. I'm like, that would be awesome. Are you sure? And that's why I would ask them to look at some of the silent drama. We also have folks that are like, no, I'm really sure. Like, we get our work done and we get along and we, you know, things are going pretty well and we are 2% more than we were last year and we're making progress. And then a question that I have, not that I don't want to believe somebody has this Zen operation, is are people then appropriately challenged? Because a baby that isn't appropriately challenged will have failure to thrive. We all need some stress in our lives. I remember after my divorce, I was thinking, I'm pretty enlightened. Like, I'm living on my own. I don't have a lot of story. I don't have a lot of stress. Like, I'm pretty enlightened. And then I started dating and I'm like, oh my God, I am not enlightened. I have tons of story and I have tons of baggage.

Insert new variable. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think we have to be kind of careful that we don't get in our comfort zone and that we stay aligned with reality. And that if your team doesn't have a lot of drama, are you keeping them appropriately challenged? Because it's not— I don't think our goal in reality-based leadership is a no-drama team. I don't. I think our goal is that as we find ourselves in drama, we identify it, clear up our thinking, find our part in it, and restore ourselves to right relationship.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know, when I was taught meditation, it's not that you're never gonna lose the mantra, and the power is not in being able to meditate for 30 minutes with never losing the mantra. The power is, is recognizing, we alluded to the mantra, and compassionate returning to the center. Yes. And that's a lot like reality-based leadership. We're not here to have completely drama-free workplaces. We're here to understand the role that drama plays and how, when we are stressed, it's time to question our thinking and to move forward remembering our goal, which is how we can, and loving people up and calling people up. It's not to never get in drama. And so I think it's important for us to have some challenging times and to have some— to drive some conflict and to drive some diversity in opinion.

Yeah.

And, and— but to be able to do that in a way that keeps human dignity intact and, and those things. I know on our team, it's not that we don't have drama, but where we don't see a lot of team drama is that each of us is pretty good about working our own program. So before I bring the trauma to you and say, Alex, I made up a story about you that you're trying to like, you know, do X, Y, and Z, I've done my own worksheets and my own tools and edited my own story. So when I come, I can say, you know, something's not quite right with us. And part of it is the stories I make up. And I'm wondering if part of it is a way we can improve our communication. And that's adulting. So adulting isn't lack of drama, 'cause that could be spiritual bypassing, toxic positivity.

Uh, disassociation. Yeah.

Disassociation, it's the ability to not personalize the drama and not grow the drama, but quickly diffuse the drama and get back in right relationship with people.

Well, and I found recently one of the tools I love, and if you talk to me for more than 20 minutes, I'm going to bring up some sort of thinking inside the box breakthrough. So I'm kind of a nerd like that. But I found as I've done that tool, and we can link that in an example in the podcast, it's like What you do is you put the goal up there or what you're trying to achieve. And then I sometimes say, if I'm close to the group, what are your excuses why we're not moving in that direction? And it's just a given that's our goal. And given these constraints or true challenges, this unpreferred reality, what's the next step we could take? And that's kind of that next right action, that accountability for what is the reality and next right action you just mentioned. And what I found is when you take that step forward and you get new information, The, the box tool metaphorically moves up a bit. So you like level up like a video game. I know it sounds weird. And then the next challenge comes. But there's new challenges. And it's like what you learned is you could break through even in that challenge. That gets you like thinking, huh, this is an interesting experiment here. And then when your team goes up to the next level, you realize that's the healthy drama, is the challenge comes, you're not shocked and upset by the unpreferred reality. You go, oh, it's just another thinking inside the box, or it's Just another RBL tool for us to come together, frame it up, see it as it is, clean up our thinking, find our part in it, and then take next right action. And so that's where that— it's just as you keep going with your career or your team, if you're doing it well, it should just constantly get a little bit challenging, one step higher. And if you can pass that, that situation, that unpreferred reality with a good tool, and then step forward, you're, you're just moving on up, and then you just enjoy the ride. So that's how I've seen it as I've been with you a decade. And as You've really taught me these tools, and then I've gotten to use them myself and then practice with other teams. I see them keep leveling up, and then it becomes almost like a game where you look forward to what's the next challenge. It's not, oh, I hope there's no more challenge or a new reality that's, you know, unexpected. You, when it comes, you're like, aha, I've been here before. What's our way to come together? So that's how I've been seeing it out there, and it's, it makes it kind of fun, even though—

I love it. And challenge and drama aren't the same. Like, once we can just get it depersonalized and Know that these are just math problems for us to solve using algebraic equations. Drama is more about trying to solve a problem toggled down. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean we won't have conflicts. Conflict's just energy. It means we know how to manage the energy. It doesn't mean that we won't have disagreement. It means that we have disagreement plus choice in the end to align around something we weren't 100% on and to mitigate the risk of. It's a way of engaging where we have transcended ego and the victim mindset Because you know it is. I get a little suspicious though when people aren't open about the drama they get into because we always have ego and we have human condition and we have our lives are moving you know quickly and you know some people are just like oh I love everybody and I just have no drama. You know I had early in my career people would be like yeah I don't judge. I wish all those people who did judge. would stop it. And then like, so you're judging the next— the thing about drama is the ego is so sophisticated that if you're not constantly working a problem, it will just morph you into a place of judgment and righteousness and separation. Because the ego needs separation and to stay mildly disgruntled to stay alive. And I don't think any of us are to that, you know, Buddha sitting under a tree enlightenment.

Yeah.

So it's not about I have no drama. It's about, can I be compassionate with myself for having an ego? that serves me and doesn't serve me? And can I be aware and self-reflective and know what to do with my drama so that it doesn't interfere in big ways with us? And when it does interfere, can I acknowledge my drama in my restitution, my amends with you? Love that. So that we can diffuse the power of drama and know that it's just part of the human condition.

That is so powerful. It, it got me thinking, it's a slight tangent, but as I'm working on my book, it's almost as if, To make it easy for training, it's almost like we'd play whack-a-mole on the sources of drama. It's like, it's ego, smack it with this. And it's what I hear you saying is it's, it's more of like this, this flow where it might be multiple reflections through that particular challenge. And then we step forward, get new information, and then there's a new challenge, maybe a little bit tougher ahead. And that it's more of a process and experience to enjoy with a little bit of tension, not— The whole goal is to never have drama. That's where it just is. Is it comes out in our language like that? Maybe for like a quick keynote, because it's like we're the no drama people. But for us, it's it's a much different process that I think we're talking around here.

Well, and I think the ego likes to have that because then you can achieve it and be superior and make it done. Yes, and it's done, and it's checklisty, and it's off. You know, it's just like. You know, when I first started yoga, my goal was like to do a handstand, and my teachers were like, we'll teach you to do a handstand, but that's not really the goal of like yoga. But in order to learn a sun salute, you have to learn a pose. And I think we in a lot of our training teach you a pose, but then putting it all together in a sun salute where you really can get into the flow of that is really the living with it. So we divide it out and simplify it for it to be a model to introduce it, to interrupt your thinking. Have you tried on for size? Show you a way forward. But when you really start practicing this, you're just gonna get skilled up in a certain area. It will open up the next level of you, as you said, then get skilled up in that area. Different parts of your life, whether you're living with four kids at home or living with no kids at home, you know, like like I know in my lifetime right now, there's so. Fewer, many fewer things that I get triggered by because I've had 58 years on the planet and I'm like, oh, I've done that rodeo before. I know how that, that ends. So I just think it's a daily practice with a lot of self-compassion, compassion for others, an invitation for all of us to just clear up our thinking and find our place of impact and, and participate in Moving things forward creatively.

Yeah, I love it. I, um, it reminds me, you and I both love Byron Katie's work, and at the end of her worksheet, there's a statement. When you're really in ego, you have to say, I look forward to the horrible thing that just happened. And most people, when they hear that, when I heard it first, I'm like, what? I just like worked through that in my mind. You want me to out loud say I look forward to it happening again? And I remember—

I'm willing to. I'm willing to.

I'm willing to. That was it. I'm willing for, you know, the person to hate my guts again, you know, or whatever you're thinking. And it reminds me of once I finally realized what was the power of that, that openness to there might be a little bit more drama ahead. And then you're just like, oh, figured that was coming. It's just another, um, like you said, math equation with these tools to find some clarity through. And then it's, it's less scary. And it is, um, you can take on that loud or silent drama because you have this, this framework to return to. So, uh, I don't know if that resonates for anybody. I love that part.

I love it. One of the things I'm working on is just greeting life as it is, because I think we can— our ego can get us into, I want to create a perfect life in which there is no drama, and it's like, or challenge. It's like, why don't I just meet life as it comes and use my tools to move through it skillfully and quit worrying about whether there's drama or not drama or unpreferred reality or preferred reality? Like, My opinion doesn't count that much any longer if I want to be peaceful and happy and help people.

I love it. I love it. Well, that's what we have for you for this one. I think we'll keep these shorter and just be mindful that loud drama, silent drama. And if you run into that case, it's like, this doesn't really resonate. We don't have any drama. You might tap into this podcast for some, some things that might be going on. So any other final thoughts? I'm glad we—

No, just invite everybody to self-reflect and I think it's a good practice to just identify what type of drama was in your life today and what part you played in that rather than if you have any drama. I think we changed the question. Where and how did I get into drama and assume it? Um, so that you can really start to play with the subtle energies that it is.

I love it. Love it.