Mindfulness Belongs in the Workplace

Hello listeners, welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. As you know, I love to bring you just great resources to continue in this conversation we're having about intentionality and making things conscious and visible and living life beyond ego and kind of in a state of higher consciousness. And that's why I'm so excited about today's guest. Eric Colesapple is an expert on mindfulness, but mindfulness that doesn't exclude Profit, business, and practices. So many times when we talk about mindfulness, we get into a mindset of duality that it's something that you're either working or meditating, or mindfulness is mutually exclusive of some of the results we have at work. But listeners, I know that you are aware that we talk about drama, and that's anything that takes away from well-being or results at work. And the way to have wellbeing and results at work is definitely through mindfulness. So Eric, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Sy. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here today.

You are so welcome. I became aware of you— this is the first time we're meeting, but I became aware of you because I was so excited about the book you're bringing out on March 7th. You're launching it now, but it ships March 7th, which is such an exciting time in any of our lives when we give birth to a But you want to start by telling listeners about yourself and about the book, and then we'll get into the topic of mindfulness.

Yeah, I would just say, you know, I came out with an MBA in my 20s and was immediately successful in real estate, was a CEO. You know, I had all the outward pictures of success, but the inward side was a mess. I was stressed, I was overweight, I drank too much, I hadn't worked out in years, and I just had an epiphany moment that said, You got to make some changes or you're not going to be here very long. You know, it doesn't matter how much money you got.

That is a story I think so many of us can relate to. I think, you know, we buy into if we can achieve, we'll avoid feeling any of that depression or internal wrestling that, that is ours to have.

Society or culture has kind of got us in that, you know, that we We do all the right things and someday we get to, you know, have this magic happiness. And I just found firsthand that that's not how it works. You know, happiness is an inside job. Success is an inside job. So I made some changes and went back and got a doctorate. Thought I'd, you know, teaching at university would give me the purpose. And I loved studying that. I found my wife and I found yoga. I had become disconnected from my body. And I'm an athlete and I got reconnected and that just made just a world of difference to me. And then, then my brother introduced me to meditation. He was a poet and my dad was a football coach and they didn't get along. And I watched, I watched my brother change and come back to the family and accept my dad. And my whole family got, you know, it just came back together. And he said, you want to try it? And I said, yeah, I'll try that. You kidding me? I just watched a miracle. You know, I watched one person change and it changed the whole world. And so I tried that. And for years I was a closet meditator. You know, I just did it myself and didn't tell anybody or anything. And but, but then gradually, you know, at work, I became someone more that people could talk to and not just about what we were doing that day, but about their personal life and what they were going through. And one at a time, people would ask me things. What, how do you How'd you change? What are you doing? This is different. You're different. So we brought it into work one at a time with a seed group, and it just spread like wildfire. The company, the management team changed the vision statement of our LC Real Estate Group to mindfully creating community. Everybody's on nonprofit boards and serving the community and doing more business than ever. Plus, they're leaving early and going and coaching their kids' teams and taking care of their family first. help each other out, and it's just been a great ride. So I'm here to share that message that it is, you know, mindfulness is focus, and there's nothing in focus that is contrary to business.

Many times I think meditation is seen as a technique to reduce stress, to achieve more. And in my meditation practice, it was a way for me to move through the world differently and was not a technique to reduce stress and achieve more. And so I think when people are presented with the option of something like meditation, which is just one of, of, of, you know, mindful living— I work with a lot of physicians and it's like, don't tell me to meditate, you know, that's not going to change my job responsibilities. And which is all meeting the ego, right? The ego is saying, get out of here. But helping people understand this isn't another thing for you to master, this is a practice is set in mystery and 2+ 2 doesn't equal 4. You're gonna work less and achieve more and see your family more because you'll be moving through the world more skillfully. Not that you'll have mastered the world. So what an exciting message to have. Do you find that people think— well, we have all kinds of misconceptions, I'm sure, but whenever I started to first bring mindfulness or Things like meditation or things like questioning your thinking or Byron Katie's work, or a lot of people saw it as mutually exclusive. I love Katie. Oh, Katie saved many of my lives. I haven't figured out what my true life is yet, but she has saved me many times. She has kept me from harming myself and others so many times. And I mean that not that I was attempted murderer, but in my Thinking I can get so violent and believing my own thoughts about others. I love the technique you used, attraction, not promotion. You're like, people notice it different. Your brother used it on you, performed a miracle, and then— or was part of a miracle— and then said, do you want what I have? But do you find that people think that work and mindfulness go hand in hand, or do many still see it as mutually exclusive?

I just— so many, I, I, I think so many, it's oil and water. You know, the mindfulness community, not everyone, but many say money's dirty, you know. And I say, well, we live in a capitalist system, so you're telling us if we go to work like we're supposed to that we're dirty?

Yeah, or that we can reject or hate part of reality instead of loving, loving what is.

And then on the, the business side, they say, oh, that's woo-woo. You know, you're holding hands, that's too soft and too time-consuming. You know, I got to get after it here. And I say, you got it wrong.

Yeah, I gotta hustle. And hustle is, is not what produces.

Woo-woo is the state of the world— distracted, divided, gridlocked. That's woo-woo to me. Mindfulness is focus, and, and even better, it's focus with happiness, you know. And I can be happy now, not wait till I've got what everybody tells me I should have. I can have that gratitude and I can have that peace of mind now. And that, you know, when you talked about it, that spaciousness that, you know, thoughts are where stress and anxiety reside. And if I can get in that spaciousness, then I have a chance for real joy and more success.

Many of us believe that happiness is something we need to defer until we have enough or we have some time or we get retired. And it really can be ours right now in this moment, in this reality. And helping people experience that is, I just, I think, part of leadership. So very, very true. What have you found for some of the techniques? I know that you're talking about mindfulness at work in your book, and it's called Profit with Presence. For those of you that wanna go out and preorder, what are some of your best invitations, I would say, 'cause I know you don't preach and I know you don't try and insert people's reality, but what are the invitations you make in this book, given what you've discovered, that you can have it now and that life can be effortless? It doesn't have to be so hard. You can move beyond all that.

You know, if you don't wanna meditate, don't. If you don't wanna do yoga, don't. But find something. I mean, we're so divorced from nature and so divorced from our bodies to find something which we can be present. I find in a busy professional world, meditation is the most portable, most direct. But a mindful walk. I mean, the first thing I start anybody on is gratitude. And it's just so we— it's an instant mindset shift. And maybe that'll give you access to a little more space. You just start looking for things to be grateful for. And those that are willing to try meditation, I say 2 minutes.

2 minutes.

10 minutes, 15 minutes, you know, you get into that crazy place and you just go, I can't meditate. It's too busy up there. I can't, you know, I don't have the time to do that. And so, but if you start with 2 minutes, things calm down. After a month, you want to do more. And then when you do more, you have more time because you're more focused and you want to do more. So I say start small. Start with the little things, you know. Start with service if you can, and keep it private for a while. You know, you don't have to run in and jump to the mountains and say, "Hey, I'm meditating," because you know, the world is still mostly skeptical until you have a practice that's solid, that you aren't going to get knocked off your game when somebody you know gives you the hairy eyeball. Keep it to yourself, and then the best share is when somebody says, "Sai, well, you're different." How come that didn't bother you? How come that person insulted you and you didn't flip them off? You know, I would have told them to go to hell. Why didn't you? You know, they ask you a question like that and then you get a chance to say, hey, try this.

Yeah, I love that. To walk the walk. And if people want to know how after they've noticed, it's nice when people are asking those questions.

Yeah, you might have a chance someday. And I encourage people to share. But not until you've achieved some stability in your practice. Because first, it diverts us from achieving more stability in our practice, because as soon as so many people, when they start meditating, say, gosh, could you get my wife to do this? Could my boss do this? You know, but we— I say the only one that needs to meditate is you. You know, it's like my brother, he changed the world for him through himself, you know. So do that, and then maybe something else will open up. Maybe it won't, but maybe it will.

What's the harm? I was a beneficiary of early on in my life being introduced to meditation. I would agree, our whole company, we, our particular flavor that we first encountered was transcendental, but our whole company was trained and it was volunteer only. You could come if you wanted to try it. Nobody monitored it. I've been meditating for years and people want to know more. And it did just change our reactivity, our Um, but when people would say, you know, I really want my spouse to do this, or our teacher would say, if that is a craving, um, my solution is for you to meditate more until that craving has been relieved from you. And it's like, because our ego is so sophisticated, right? We get close to something and then instantly it's like, oh, somebody else needs this more. Or—

Yeah, it's a trap.

Yeah, it will help anybody, but when we need it to help others, it's a way to avoid ourselves. When I first started to learn a new technique, a meditation technique, a little bit longer, different sitting practice, my teacher noticed my face when I would lose track of the mantra, and my face was almost violent. I'd be like, dang it. And I would like begin again. And he invited me to live, use my meditation and my first response as some knowledge about myself. And he's like, you'll notice how violent you are with yourself, how little self-compassion you have when you're inviting yourself to return to the mantra. And he's like, what if you lived life more about favor the mantra, come back towards it, Rather than criticizing yourself towards it. And that's when I really started, for me, any of my mindful practices, to learn that how I am on the mat has so much to show me about how I am when I'm moving through the world less consciously. There is just so many things. And so for me, a lot of the times it's not that I hit the mark or succeed in business, it's that as I lose my way, I favor the mantra. And, and it's that compassionate returning that has really accumulated for me.

It's like training a puppy.

Yeah, it is training a puppy. I love that.

Get the mind back on the newspaper. Get the mind— just let it go. Don't beat the mind. Don't beat the puppy. Just grab it, put it back on the newspaper. Grab it, put it back on the newspaper. Grab it, put it— come back and back and back.

Bring it back. And before we leave meditation, because that's kind of the One of the main ones people think of for mindfulness is there's so many things out there. I love your 2 minutes. Um, I have— when people have asked, Sam Harris's Waking Up app is fantastic. There's all kinds of new devices out there that have, you know, tonal vibrations that are like 3 minutes long. Just, uh, making a practice to invite yourself to stillness for any amount of time. Certainly just opens up a repertoire you didn't maybe have before. So what are some— I love gratitude, so I love that you brought that up. What, what type of, uh, um, ways have you learned, or, or do you invite people to try to enhance their gratitude practices?

Usually just a journal. Sometimes it's a recording, sometimes it— but a journal, 3 things a day and why. That you're grateful for. There's just an afterimage with it that you just start noticing. You start looking for that. Sometimes I encourage people to try— it doesn't work for everybody— ask it a question like, you know, am I happy? You know, am I satisfied? Rather than I am. So, you know, try it in a question. Maybe that works better for some. Some people recording, you know, they listen to it on the way to work or something, can be helpful. But to do it, to have a practice where where you're changing your mindset and loading yourself for the day to look for things to be grateful for. And a lot of times, people say you can't, don't repeat them. I'm not a fan. I repeat mine. I mean, my kids, my wife and kids are in it every day. You know, it helps me when they come. And that's my biggest, is usually my biggest satisfaction and my biggest stress points. So, it just helps me. And I've even included their spouses. You know, to say, you know, I'm grateful for them. So when those things come up, I immediately— my mind, you know, shifts in another gear.

If we think about what our goals are that are most important to us, I mean, happiness and contentment are a goal for a lot of people. And when I think about the deliberate effort or the daily disciplines that we have supporting happiness, we're a little light on it. There was a I forget which golfer, but he was acknowledged for making this really great shot. And they said, that's just amazing. And his response to the camera was like, this ain't no hobby. Like, I do everything every day to golf shots like this. And I started out life as a counselor, and a lot of people almost treated their marriages or their relationships or their happiness. as a hobby, like, I hope it all works out, when I think the quality of your life has a lot to do with these daily discipline choices you make for 5 or 10 minutes.

Well, it becomes a place, it becomes a destination versus a way of being, right? I mean, we're doing an 8-week corporate mindfulness program right now with 30 or so folks and reading Shawn Archer's Happiness Advantage. And it's just a brilliant, simple book about how happiness comes first.

Yeah, there's science behind so much of it.

And it makes you more successful. If you can bring happiness, like for golf, you bring that up for me, a transformation with me was, I used to be, my worth would be how I did that day. And if I did bad, I'd come home and kick the dog. And if I did great, I was wonderful. And transformed for me as I started bringing happiness to the course. You know, what if I brought it, you know, and then think every little errant drive was like life or death because it is a hobby for me. It's not, you know, it's not my job.

Well, I think if you play golf long enough, you're, you're gonna see that just like emotions, golf is a lot like the weather. There are one shot's beautiful and meets your approval and the next shot does not meet our approval. But, uh, There's practice in playing from where you lie.

And bringing happiness to it lets you let go of that last shot and be there for the next one. Not like every, you know, you're gonna— and in life, if you're waiting for your experiences to give your happiness, well, experiences are, are just naturally good and bad. There's a lot of bad ones, and your emotions and your state of being are going to be with that. So I encourage people to come from a bigger perspective, from consciousness, from presence. You know, I notice life's ups and downs, but I don't have to go up and down with every change in the stock price. I don't have to have a, you know, a big violent mood swing. That's what my dad was like. You know, you go in the house, if the stock market was up, it was going to be a good night. If it was down, oh gosh, look out. You know, that's just not a way to live.

Right. We really outsource our happiness oftentimes to external happenings. And, you know, that's one thing for me that, uh, I, I don't want to outsource. And I talk to my listeners too, it's not— we're not asking for toxic positivity to pressure you to feel better about things than you, than you do. It's more about having some spaciousness around what's happening to feel all of your feels, not just, you know, the, the, the doomsday version. I love gratitude practice, and I have found that my ego has kind of morphed at times my work. I had a great practice and I would count my blessings, and I found out how much judgment I had in a day. Like, if I wanted more of that, it would go on my gratitude list. It was almost me trying to make a deal with the universe. And then I was able to morph into a place where instead of trying to count my blessings, I worked— it's not even work— I paid attention to What would happen if I counted everything that happened to my day as a blessing? You know, there's the old farmer's tale about, you know, a farmer who's in his field and the neighbors are watching. And as he has a horse that pulled his plow but got injured, the neighbors comment, that's horrible. His son takes over the job, the neighbors comment, that's amazing. His son gets injured, the neighbors comment, that's horrible. And how often the neighbors are narrating. This is awesome. This is not awesome. And the story goes on and on about the son's injury keeps him out of a war. Oh, afterwards, that was great. And I just, for myself, just try and skip the roller coaster of having to name something too soon. So my listeners are familiar, we talk about resisting the urge to name things externally and instead just trying to see them from a first-generation Um, viewpoint. It just kind of is what it is. It's a nice walking meditation practice to look at the tree and not say, oh, that tree is in bloom, therefore beautiful, but just there's a thing in front of me that I call a tree. Byron Katie's meditation walk is a beautiful one.

Yeah, and we do that with people, right? We do that. We label Democrat, Republican, socialist, you know, communist. Whatever it is, we label people to reduce them. Like, we know everything under the label, and then we don't have to actually experience the person because we already know everything about them.

Keeps us from being vulnerable, but it also strips us of the joy. I think when we are naming or labeling or judging is a way for us to resolve cognitive dissonance, like where multiple things can be true. It's like a shortcut in the moment. But at the same time, when I'm doing that, life gets pretty boring. I'm not living in 3 dimensions. I'm living kind in, in one dimension. And so if you can just hold mystery, hold wonder, hold awe for one minute longer, stay curious.

You know, I do breath meditation is what, uh, we, we, we practice. And, uh, it's interesting, in that practice we label thoughts to eliminate them.

So tell us more about that.

Well, if you're thinking, you come— one practice is, you know, if you're meditating, you're following your breath, and a thought comes up, to label it thinking and return to your breath.

I love that.

Because it reduces it, you know, it eliminates it. Then you don't have to worry about it anymore. That's a reverse thing of it working in a positive, and it's very efficient. But sometimes labeling, as you're saying, with flowers or trees or people, it really reduces them to way less than what they are.

I think that's so true. We talk a lot about, um, stop judging, start helping is a big mantra that We try and help leaders with. So as a leader, I know you've talked about living an unintentional, without motive role model, but people can see you move through the world differently. You have some happiness practices, you're training people. What else can we leaders do to find the way to incorporate mindfulness and, and have all these benefits in our business from mindfulness? What are some other practices that you can share?

You know, especially for leaders to get in touch with and learn your blind spots. We all have some blind spots. Now, I've found that I usually need some outside help, a coach, a counselor, a workshop, or something because they are blind spots. And as a leader, I always found people weren't honest with me. They weren't saying, you know, Eric, you're an angry little guy. What's going on with you? No, they're saying you're great, you know, because you're the leader, you know. So 360-degree, you know, reviews or a workshop or some way to get some feedback on what some of your blind spots are. And I found what meditation really makes me open to searching for things like that. And then once I, you know, I had a blind spot around anger and it was I was at a workshop and somebody said, what are you so angry about? I'm not angry. Oh, there it is. And I started watching myself and I realized I was using anger at the office, at closings, for my kids, and I was using it to get my way. And when I started being aware of it, I said, that's disgusting and I don't want to work. I don't want to be that person. So, I started being aware of it and started noticing it and started noticing I wasn't even manufacturing anger to get my way. It would just come up. And it was just like, and then I said, okay, when you do it, go clean it up. And I didn't want to clean it up. You know, I didn't want to go apologize. So, you know, eventually, and I still have a tendency, but I don't have a blind spot around it anymore. You know, when I do it, I know I did it. And I, I don't want to be that way. So every— I think we all have different ones. And meditation makes me more open, but I also need some feedback to find that. That can be— and to be open to that and be confident enough to say, you know, we all have some stuff. I'm willing to look at it, not cover it up and, you know, hope nobody notices, because everybody else knows. You know, people around us, especially those closest to us, they know. They're like, boy, don't upset Eric.

So true. And as you can sit back and witness yourself— I'll speak for myself— you can just find out some worn-out ways of getting our needs met and, you know, some things we've carried with us. And, you know, the true freedom is on the other side of the realizing. So I just want to kind of anchor into what you said. Many people are surprised when, you know, they see people like you or I as maybe an expert in their life, and they're surprised that I have teachers, I have coaches, I have a therapist. I, you know, they're like, oh my gosh, are you okay? I'm like, the only reason I am pretty okay most days is because I have a coach. And I have a therapist that continues. The minute I learn a blind spot, I learn another one. But I think the key is that if you're able to observe and grow in awareness, you naturally tire of yourself over time. It's like a magic trick for me. Once I see the magic trick, I'm enamored by it. And once somebody shows me how it's done, it's hard to go back and resee. That as the illusion that it was. And I'm like, dang it, you know, why did I exaggerate that to like get people endeared to me? It's like, why did I do that?

Well, it worked for a while, right? It worked. We developed these habits that worked at a certain stage in our life, and the way we're such habitual creatures that we keep hanging on to it even when we don't need it anymore, even when it stops serving us.

Yeah, and that's part of that self-reflection we talk about. So much of the power of a leader for yourself and others is not what you tell people, it's what you can facilitate them reflecting on and fostering reflection for yourself and for others. I often say, I'll screw this up, but only daily. Thank God I know about how to do a good amend. You know, there's one thing noticing it, then you kind of get sick of yourself, and then you start to do new things. And inevitably we resort back, or I do. And then, you know, the power of going to clean that up, I think, is part of the process to get sick of yourself. Like, if I have to make another amend about this behavior, I'm getting more and more motivation to do it differently.

Once you become responsible for it, then you train yourself not to do it, you know, or notice it when it's coming. And then over time, say, gosh, I didn't do it that time. That was amazing. That was amazing. I want more of that.

You know, it's a fantastic topic to bring into this time right now as we really get the opportunity to recreate our workplaces and our world places to have less separation of our personal and our professional lives, but also to do it in a way that favors us humans and our human condition. So I think it's so timely that you're bringing this book to us. where you're saying, you know what, money's not dirty and profits don't exclude mindfulness. And we can be more socially responsible in the way that we earn money and we can create workplaces that just are really soothing, healthy places for people to work and humans to show up. And so it's a great topic.

It can work. And I think our literature, I hope that, I think it is a timely book because our literature Needs to reflect it. Needs to reflect that, you know, I started with Eastern literature and I loved it, but for years I was just stuck in, I got to renounce all my possessions? I don't know about that. I was just kind of stuck. And then I found some other work that was more New Age that I learned, you know, no, I don't. I can define that. And if I make the world a better place and I give and serve, I can make a bigger difference having some resources. You know, I couldn't have started a nonprofit or wrote a book Without some resources. And then to see how it works in action, you know, everybody that has money is not a jerk.

It's so true.

You can do good things with it.

I think, you know, you hit on a lot of people believe to be spiritual, we need to renounce all wealth and to, um, you know, live in a way that is intentional. We will never, you know, have anger or, you know, performance manage someone who might not be aligned with our company goals. And helping people just move into that, um, and, and that helps us create the environments that we want to create, I think is so important to get out of some of these home dualities. But I'm with you. I read a lot of Eastern literature and felt guilty over all my possessions. And then I found ways that I used possessions as diversions. And so the answer wasn't all or nothing. The answer was— Stay with this inquiry until you better understand whether it's creating or inhibiting, and then just make alterations as you go along. As you know more, you can do more. So,

absolutely.

Well, Eric, I'm so glad that I became aware of your work. I want more people out there that are role modeling how you can move through life peacefully and skillfully. And a lot of it has to do with getting fluent in the dedications, practices, habits, endeavors that can really help us be less reactive to the world and more intentional in the world.

And better at business all at the same time.

And better at business. I often get asked, like, what was my master plan? How'd I get so successful? And I have the temptation to do revisionist history. history to say, oh, I saw a gap and I zigged when they zagged, and I like, I just was smarter than everybody. But the only thing that really comes to me is like, but for the grace of God go I, my dad used to say. I'm like, um, I had beautiful people who tapped me on the shoulder and said, hey, it might not have to be this hard, try this. And, uh, it was a beautiful invitation. So I think if we mind our relationships, our intentionality, our happiness, Abundance is just ours in whatever form it comes. It's, it's, it's interesting. So thank you for joining me. What would you like to leave our listeners with? Do you have a go-to, like, recommendation? You've talked about some great things between gratitude and mindfulness, but are there other things out there?

Start small and be consistent, whether it's a mindful walk or, you know, have the intention, start journaling a little bit. You know, if meditation is really distasteful for you, try something else, you know. But find— try something that'll make you more present, more aware. And most people have an activity that they're mindful in. For me, it's snow skiing. For my wife, it's painting. For some people, it's, you know, knitting or, you know, fly fishing. What is that? And then start noticing how you feel when you do that, and then try to bring that into other things. And then just ask yourself, Gosh, what if I could have that feeling at work 8 or 10 hours a day, or half of it even? What if I could just get at that feeling and be in flow at work, you know, and love the people I work with like I love my family? Wouldn't that be amazing?

I love the advice, start small and do it consistently. Another story I was told is, you know, someone said, how do I get immersed in this? How do I get fully wet, almost like a baptism? And the response was, if you walk through mist often enough, your sleeve will become totally wet and saturated. And it's such a nice view of it. So my listeners, I usually give them an assignment, but you just did an assignment for self-reflection. Think of something that you already do that you're in the zone and find ways to replicate that in small efforts during the day and watch how that grows. So

I have several people in my program who've taken up music, didn't do it since high school. That was their thing, and then they went off into other things and they picked it back up again. So may not be something that you're doing right now too. Just think back to your childhood. What were those things?

Fantastic idea. A lot of people say, I don't know what my purpose is, or I don't know what I enjoy or what brings me joy. And that's such a great thing to do. Go back to when you're 6 years old. What was like your favorite thing in the world? And mine was hiking and getting back to that just really, you know, it was a quick way to recenter. Our body knows we spend a lot of time in our minds, but our body actually has most of the answers we seek. So I love when you talk about somatic practices of, you know, just reconnecting with our body. And there's so many teachers out there right now that are helping people move back into their body. We, we moved out for a while. That was kind of the vogue.

It's a refuge for the mind.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, well, I hope people, um, pre-order and enjoy Prophets with Presents, um, that they can have in their hands as early as March 7th. Eric, thank you for, um, I want to say the work you do in the world, but it sounds like, um, thank you for doing your work and therefore cleaning up kind of your doorstep of the world as we Talk about, and then sharing it with the rest of us. This doesn't have to be hard or big or total life transformation. It can be pauses and moving through the world a bit differently each day. So—

You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.

You bet. How can people find you if they want to know more about your story and about the work that you do or the workshops you bring into your companies or your not-for-profit?

livinginthegap.org is our website. All of our workshops are on there. We're We're currently in an 8-week corporate mindfulness program. There's a 21-day free 10-minute-to-your-mailbox mindfulness, how to get some mindful movement and start with 2 minutes of meditation, move up to 5. There's a list of books to get started with there. And our keynote is a 9-month mindful leadership program, which in my experience, it takes a little bit to really reshape your habits and change your vision and those kind of things. And anything you want to reach me or anybody on our team, that's on that livinginthegap.org. Awesome.

Thank you, livinginthegap.org. And I appreciate that because we can talk concepts all we want, um, but it's really nice when you have a place that people can go and figure out and select their own path and what seems attractive to them and where they want to begin or, or continue. So, okay, well, thank you, Eric. Be well and good luck in your work. We need, in my humble opinion, about, uh, 7, 8 million of us out there loving people up, calling people up. So it's good to be with you in the world.

Thanks for having me on.