Overcoming Burnout and Thriving at Work-Life Control with Brave Boundaries

Welcome everyone to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. And for those of you that were frustrated, I took a bit of a hiatus. I don't know if I ran out of what to say or I had to take a step back and figure out what I can bring you that would be most helpful. But as we emerge from what we've been through the last couple years and we are better at self-reflecting and we are looking for the helpers, I'm bringing you The Helpers. And I'm bringing you one of my favorite guests back again, Dr. Sasha Shillcutt, because she and I just keep having richer and richer and richer conversations. And she just came out with the most fabulous new book called Brave Boundaries. A little bit about Sasha in case you haven't tuned into her other appearances on my podcast: she has this fabulous pedigree. She's a tenured professor, she's a gender equity researcher, award-winning physician She's a professional coach. She's a speaker. She's entrepreneur, mother of four, fabulous wife, incredible supporter, sponsor, mentor of all of us women. And it looks like she really has it all and does it all. But she will tell you personally, that's not the case. She has to decide what she chooses to have in order to have what she desires. And she's created a life. She's designed a life that works for her. So first of all, welcome Sasha. I'm so glad to have you.

Thank you, Sy. Oh my goodness, you just pour into my soul with all of your words, as I know you do for thousands of people all over the world, and I'm honored to be here today.

You are fantastic. Now, the people that know me know that very rarely do I say that there, there is a cure or a single area of focus. I often worry about people who have a hammer and see the whole world as a nail. But I'm telling you what, boundaries are the hammer and everything's a nail. Like, boundaries to me— if you are burned out, check your boundaries. If you are mad and resentful, check your boundaries. If you are tired, check your boundaries. And boundaries are the one thing, especially we as women, we're never taught. And in fact, society really doesn't want us to discover boundaries because the whole world will shut down. But with that intro, You just released the book Brave Boundaries. It took me about 2 nights to read it, and I wrote— as much as I focus on boundaries, I wrote so much in this book. And I'll stop talking because that's my excitement. But tell us, like, as a gender equity researcher, as a physician entrepreneur, like, what— how'd you pick boundaries for your next great book?

Well, it's pretty simple. You know, I came through burnout in 2013. I thought I had all the answers, and then what I realized was when the pandemic hit is I was burned out again. So I'm like, okay, wait a minute. Now I have all the things I didn't have in 2013. I have this amazing community of people. I have amazing work. I have knowledge I didn't have then. I have freedom I didn't have then. I'm an entrepreneur. Why am I back in the same place? This is embarrassing. And I carried a lot of shame. And I finally got the courage to go to therapy. And I showed up looking like Britney Spears with like the sunglasses and the scarf, 'cause I didn't want anyone to know who I was or to see me going into therapy, right? And she said, you know, I said, I have all these good things and I'm burned out again. And she said, well, that's because you don't have boundaries. And I was like, boundaries? Aren't those for people like going through toxic relationships or something? And she's like—

Codependency treatment.

Yeah. And she's like, no, you, you have taken the good in your life and it seeped out because— and it has actually overgrown and become something really negative and toxic because you lack boundaries. And it was so eye-opening for me because I realized this is going to be a cycle of burnout for me if I do not learn how to set boundaries. Boundaries don't just keep bad out, they keep the good in, and they keep us from over-functioning on good things, whether that's your kids, whether that's your career, whether that's exercise, whether that's— your family, food, whatever it is, boundaries are the key. And I thought to myself, I have never learned this in all of my years of leadership classes, courses, education. How have I never learned about boundaries? And so that is why I decided to write this book, especially as women, because the world runs on women with no boundaries. And it's time that we stop overfunctioning, and it's time that we get our health back and realize that this is going to be a dynamic process for the rest of our lives. We're going have to do these boundary checks as you described.

Oh my gosh. And what I love is that in this book especially, you have taken the shame out of not having boundaries. There have been so many times in my life— I actually went through codependency treatment in my 20s. I learned boundaries and then fell in love and let them go. And then, you know, family relationships— I have relearned boundaries so many times. And that's why I found your book so refreshing, because it gave me permission to learn boundaries Revisit again without shame, and I love that you say in the book boundaries will determine whether something in your life is a blessing or a curse. Our kids are a blessing, but without boundaries they become a burden. And and I used to say I want to unburden myself. I want to get rid of what zaps me as if it was external. And now I realize that that's too that's building cement walls. Like I want a lot in my life. I just have to teach them. how to use me. I love that when you went to therapy, your therapist didn't enable you. It would have been easy to say, you're an anesthesiologist during COVID at one of the top research or academic medical centers in the, you know, the world. Of course you're burnt out. It's your environment. It's COVID. But he or she didn't. They said, this is about your skill set.

It is. And it, and, you know, it made me realize that The more successful you become in life, in whatever area you're doing, whether that's business or your family or your relationship, the more boundaries you are going to have to set for yourself. Because our biggest strength, our biggest success, our biggest love, our biggest whatever we're drawn to can become so dangerously toxic to us if we don't set boundaries around it. And that blew my mind. Like, I was just— I'm such a binary thinker. Like, I'm such a scientist, and I think black Black, white, good, bad, right? And to think that like my kids could become bad or being— or my ego in fixing everybody and helping everybody. I mean, here I had this group of, you know, thousands of women that I was trying to help. And I just felt like so like needed and I felt like I was doing such good work and it became so out of control and burning me out so bad. And that's where I learned from you. I've learned so much on my ego from you. It was feeding my ego and this good thing. I just couldn't conceptualize how this good thing that I was helping people had become so dangerously toxic to my personal mental health. And I couldn't separate the fact that, like, it wasn't the people that are bad, it wasn't the group that are bad, right? It wasn't even the needs, it was me not setting boundaries around my time and energy and what I could and couldn't do, and just embracing this superwoman feeling, like, or this martyr, right, that we often find ourselves embracing. And so, Boundaries are something that I'm going to have to do the rest of my life. I'm going to have to adjust them as my life is dynamic and changing every year, as the people in it, as my job changes. So now I see, like, when I'm upset, when I'm angry, when I'm frustrated, when I'm tired, I'm like, okay, what's going on here? I guarantee you your pain point is lacking a boundary or not communicating a boundary, having a boundary in your head. But never sharing it with anyone and expecting people to read your mind. You know, it's just so eye-opening once you understand how integral boundaries are for everyday mental health.

Absolutely. You know, I, I talk about sit with your anger till it tells you its name. And the more I sit with my anger, it only has one of two names, boundaries or grief.

Hmm.

I either need to Set a boundary, communicate it, not just have the world read my mind, be adults about it, ask for what I need, and then quite honestly believe the answer that comes my way. The people meant for me will say, "Thank you for sharing that." I may not agree with it, but I care about you and I'm glad to participate with you. And the ones who are boundary busters fall away. And so my anger is either I haven't set a boundary or I fear. The answer, and I don't want to grieve, which I absolutely— I love your take on it. So many times we think if our life's out of control, we're the problem. We are the self-help project. We need to either be chronically disappointed in the human race, or we need to figure out better time management, and we need to figure out like what's wrong with us that we can't do it. It's not the mess. Lives are always gonna be messy. And it's not that you just have to be a better person, you're not, you know, measuring up to us. It's really that you have to evolve so you have skills so you can move through the messy world more skillfully. And I love that you say, you know, the more you have to give, the more in danger you are of overgiving and not setting boundaries. How can us successful, brilliant women— you're, you know, a genius physician entrepreneur. I consider myself pretty smart. Like, why do we still feel so bad about just saying not just a limit but a desire or a preference or like sometimes a hard stop? Like, even though I know it intellectually, like, it feels like the whole world's against me on this when I'm just asking for something basic. What is going on?

You know, it's, it's a great question because when I first talk about boundaries in my classes with women, everybody just goes like— I can see their face on Zoom. They're like, no. Um,

yeah, they're like, I will be alone, unworthy, and I will be unpopular. Everyone will hate me.

Yeah, every— you know, I won't be liked. Like, how— it's always the question, like, how do I set a boundary and still have everyone like me?

Yes.

You know, um, because we just— we desire that, that people pleasing, that like we don't wanna upset anyone, right? We don't wanna add drama. We think that setting a boundary is gonna distance us from someone. It's gonna hurt a relationship. It does all of the opposite things. Boundaries are kind. You know, Brené says clear is kind. Boundaries are so transparent. They say, this is what I have to give you. I cannot give this. This is where I draw this line. This is what time I have to give you. This is what energy I have to give you. This is who I am. They are so transparent and they are They're beautiful because they are kind. What you have to do is you have to find that 20 seconds of brave, I call it, to set the boundary. Because that feeling in your heart that is racing, that you're like, I don't wanna have this conversation, I don't wanna say no, I don't know how to say no, I'm gonna upset this person, that is just a narrative that you have told yourself. Because society is so anti-boundaries, right? Like, hello, the cell phone, 24/7, like, we can find us anywhere, find our phone. Like, it's— I mean, could you get more anti-boundary than the iPhone, right? Like, it's just crazy. Technology has made us so that we are so accessible. And what we have to do is we have to find that 20 seconds of brave and push through the narrative that our psych is telling us, like, oh my gosh, this is bad because I'm getting tachycardic and I'm getting hives and I'm getting nervous. And we have to set the boundary. That's the story.

What's our story? We have to edit our story.

And we set the boundary. And you know what? People do 3 things. They either get it right away and they're like, oh yeah, no problem. And they're on to the next thing 20 seconds later. They don't even— they're not even thinking about you in 20 seconds. Right? Most people just—

Yeah, you're pretty replaceable.

Yes. They're like, oh, you can't? Okay, catch you next time. And you're like, oh, that wasn't hard. Or they're confused, and they're confused because maybe they don't understand your boundary and you just need to explain it a little bit, right?

Or you've led them to believe that you are the person who will help them night and day. You even said that to them, you just didn't mean it.

Yes, exactly.

So they're confused.

They're confused because they're like—

This is not the person.

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And the best thing to do is just say, you know what, I am trying to be healthier this year, or this month, or today. I am really trying to be healthy. And one of these things that is helpful for me is setting boundaries and being transparent. So I am unable to do X. And then the third group are the backlash people, right? The busters, the boundary busters that— and most of them, honestly, it comes from a place of jealousy. And it's not because they're jealous of you. It's because they're jealous of your boundary because they've never contemplated setting it, setting one themselves. I guarantee that the people that are angry at your boundary have no boundaries in that area themselves. And so they're so like, wait a minute, why do you get to set that boundary? And some of them will come around and they're going to be like, you know, I saw that you don't answer email on vacation, so I'm not going to answer email either on vacation, but some of them are never going to get it.

Yeah.

And that's okay. You just have to keep going and keep marching and just find that 20 seconds of brave.

And it's so counterintuitive because it actually, in cleaning up your life, gets you what you want, which is to be loved mostly by yourself and to stop self-abandoning. And, and there are people when you do set a boundary, their current Ease in life was based on the foundation of you doing free work or you doing more than your fair share or you over-contributing. And for some of us, you're younger than I am, but growing up, I'm 57, and growing up it was drilled into us, if you want equity at work, you can't show that you have a family. You can't show like, you can't show that you're frazzled. You can't show that, um, you have anything that would interfere with saying yes at work. And I'll never forget the day where my boss said to me, Sai, you show up and you seem discombobulated when you finally get to work. And I had 2 kids in 18 months, and we wore satin shirts under our suits to work. So if a child even touched you, you had the spot on your shirt. So I would like run around in my bra, put my shirt on at the last minute, race out. And he was giving me so much feedback about that. And I finally looked at him, I go, Tell me what your last hour was like. And he had someone preparing breakfast, someone brought him the paper, someone tied his tie, somebody kept the kids quiet while he read, somebody— and I remember in my 30s, it just dawned on me and I was like, don't ever give me feedback because what I had done was very different in the last hour. But here's the lesson I want to tell, not that he was a bad guy. One, I bought into a story that wasn't true and I never questioned it. So question it. 2, I went around a lot in life going, why does he expect this of me? Instead of saying, why do I strive to marry up to his expectations? Why are they doing this to me? Instead of, why do I stay for this? Why? I had to totally change the question to even get me in the neighborhood of setting a boundary because I was so externally focused about how they should be. Mm-hmm. And instead of how they were, which is reality, and what limiting belief I had and what I had control over, which is steps you talk about. But a lot of this comes down to worthiness.

Mm-hmm. Yes, worthiness. And we know that's one of the myths that I talk about in the book, is you have to ask yourself why you don't think you're worthy of the boundary. So this is a really easy example, but it's actually a very common one. I coach mostly women physicians who are, you know, breadwinners. They're paying the bills, they're putting kids through school. And a very common boundary that they don't have is domestic work. And they do all the domestic work and they do all the cleaning. And when I, I, when we identify, when we break down the work and we break down what's stressing them out, Mm-hmm. and they bring this up, I say, well, let's hire a house cleaner. Let's hire somebody to come in and do the laundry. Let's hire this. And it's not that they don't have the funds to do this, it's that they are too afraid to have the conversation with their partner, and they're too afraid to change and set a boundary around domestic work. And it's not about money. It's not like, you know, you think. It's about the actual question of why they think they're not worthy of that boundary. And saying, I'm not going to do X amount of work at night when I get home in the house. I'm going to hire someone to come during the day and do this for me, or whatever. They don't feel worthy of that because they are comparing themselves to a maternal figure that was not a surgeon or an anesthesia or fill in the blank, or that did these things, or their partner or their mother-in-law or somebody has put that in their narrative that they think they have to compete with that and they do not feel worthy of That's literally hiring someone to do laundry. And this is the kind of stuff that you have to get deep into to ask yourself, why do I not feel worthy to set a boundary? Why do I not believe I have permission to do that? Why do I think I won't be loved if I hire a housekeeper? I mean, these are the questions that get deep, right? And they sound embarrassing when we read about it, but it's like my story in the book of me skiing and telling everybody when I got to the top of the mountain, I wasn't going down the top. The mountain. And I was so afraid to tell my little 8 and 12-year-old boys, like, I'm not going to ski this mountain because I didn't want to ruin their vacation because of this crazy narrative that I had in my mind. And this is the kind of things that we have to ask ourselves permission, like, to, to really go deep here is why do I not feel worthy of that?

It's so important because the other thing we do is we survey other people who don't feel worthy and they're like, what do you think? Do I, you know, have a housekeeper? And they go, well, I don't have a housekeeper. And then, and then we outsource the decision to somebody who's not inconvenienced by it. You know, if you are partnered, you outsource it to a partner. You're like, honey, what do you think about us getting a housekeeper? And since they do zero housework, they're like, well, I'm not really— I don't think it's worth the money. And it's like, well, of course you don't, but I do. Like, just have a housekeeper show up and Yeah, it's just— it's such— the book is enlightening, and it's not just about the book Brave Boundaries, but about your process through it. So let's talk about— you have so much fantastic insight into boundaries. So we weren't taught boundaries. We have been taught and pressured by society not to have them, so that we do all this free work as women, that we don't say no. Like, the first couple of times I learned to say no, I The shock on other people's faces, they're like, what? Come again? I quit saying no to people. I found a healthier way. I go, you know, I'm gonna pass on that because they have no retort. If I say no, they're like, why not? And let me fix that for you. And here's how you can— I go, you know what? I'm just gonna pass on that. They're like, pass? I don't have a comeback for, I'm gonna pass on that.

I love that.

I'm just gonna pass, and I give no reason because it means I might go next time, I might not, you know, I'm gonna pass. But it's like there's so much pressure not to have boundaries, and a lot of women would set boundaries, but we haven't taken the time to ourselves to get clear about how we even feel or what we want. We have all these limited beliefs, we set them and feel like we can't enforce them, so we're already exhausted. Like, why do we set a boundary? We know we're gonna let that kid come in our bed, or, you know, why am I fighting this? And we go through life just exhausted, but you really help clear that up. So let's say I come to you as just this exhausted person and you say boundaries is your issue, and I start to cry because I'm like, I can't even find time for a shower, and now you want me to like stand up to all the people who are the scariest people in my life in time I don't have, with clarity I don't have, and you want me to be strong when I'm so tired and weak? Like How do we even start? Because you have master classes on this, you have incredible classes. So where do you start with us women who come to you and we want to quit being doctors and we want to never write another book and we're never going on social media again and we're getting a divorce and we're moving, you know, to a deserted island? Yeah, where do you start with that?

I love it. Okay, so the first thing I have people do is what they look at me like I'm crazy is you got to have 30 minutes To yourself every day. And it's the biggest boundary I set. I do this for myself every morning. And you know what? I've been doing this for years and I wake up and I don't want to do it. Every day when I wake up, my brain goes into work mode, task mode. I start running the list. I got to do this. I got to do this. I got to do this. And I have to tell myself, no, Sasha, you have a boundary. And your boundary is you don't get on your phone first thing in the morning. You go make the coffee, you pour the water, and you go on a walk. You do this every morning. Remember, Sasha? And I go, oh yeah, I got to do this because

Our ego does not want us to do this. Our ego doesn't want us to do this because the minute you take 30 minutes, the ego and the external validation loses control and you connect with source and you know your truth. And you know that if I abandon that today, it will be a choice. And so that's why every day my ego tries to say, just for today, can we not check in? Because I really want to like drink wine tonight and I want to like ignore my feelings and I want to do bad things and skip my workout. And if you start with clarity, I won't be able to play. I will just be something you notice and I won't be in control.

Yes. Oh my gosh, so good what you just said. Can we just like make that like on a board that we read on our mirror every morning? Because it's so true. That is— rewind and listen to what she just said again, because it is the truth. And if you start out your day—

Message from the ego in the morning is we are too busy, you better get going, don't check in with yourself, because if you check in, I will die. Yes. Like, the ego won't live if you check in.

Yes. And so I do this in the morning. I have everyone do this in the morning. And it is amazing what this does, because all of a sudden you go from your— you are out of control, you have so many things, you can't wait to just come home and drink wine, you're never gonna— it's gonna be a horrible day, you're gonna lose control, to, oh, okay, I'm feeling a little anxious about this. What does that mean? And what is that gonna look like today? And oh, I need to say no to this thing I said yes to on Thursday. I actually need to give myself and empower myself permission to say no No, I'm not going to show up to that. Or, you know what, I know this email's coming, and the minute it hits my inbox, I'm going to reply with a no thank you because I'm just going to move it off the list. This is what happens in those morning times. You become so aware of your own pulse and where you are in your own wellness that things become clear, and you become so empowered with this time. It's the biggest thing you can do to give yourself the biggest boundary. And then What happens is when you gain strength, when you gain clarity, you gain strength, and you have to have strength to set boundaries. Most of us think setting the boundary is gonna be so exhausting and hard that I'm gonna rather just suffer with all this extra work and drama, that it, it's just better to live in this, in this horrible muckety muck than it is to find 20 seconds of brave and the strength to set the boundary. It is a lie. Your brain is telling you a lie. And once you set the boundary, you go, that was not as near as bad as I thought it was gonna be. I feel so empowered. And you are teaching other people that you are a woman who sets boundaries. You are a woman who says no when you need to. You are a woman who says I'll pass when you don't have the energy or time. You are a woman who does not work for free. These are the things that become so empowering that the next morning, The strength moves to a different part of your life, right? Like—

It does. It just grows. Yes. It's like snowball effect. It's like paying down your debt using Dave Ramsey's snowball effect.

It is. It is. And so I tell women all the time, first of all, anyone can set a boundary. You don't have to be Cy Wakeman or Sasha Shillcutt to set a boundary. You don't have to be an extrovert. You don't have to have great skills at negotiation. You don't have to be this, you know, super strong, outgoing personality. Anybody can set a boundary, and you can do it today in little areas where you're working and little pain points. And it's so empowering and it becomes like, okay, this is a boundary issue. This is a boundary issue. Oh, that person's really triggering me because I haven't actually been an adult and expressed my boundary to them. So how would they know? Right?

And when we do set boundaries from not a place of clarity, it usually is as a victim. You have pushed me too far, or I can't take it, or I'm losing my mind. And the reality is, is when you're setting a boundary, finally you're actually regaining your mind. And so if you can start with clarity, it's a whole different way to set a boundary because it's usually so simple. Like, I don't want to. Like, I just put an end to— and I— people come to me, the more successful you get, people have all these partnership ideas. They all sound like amazing, and they would help people and we would make money and the world needs it. And And when I got clear on my morning walks and asked myself, what do I want? I want more play, less work, more nature, less corporate boardroom, more staying home, less travel. And so when I came back and I said, you know, I need to let you know today I'm not gonna go further with this idea, and people are like, why? I was able quietly to say, you know, I just don't want to. There's not one part of me That wants to— and to set a boundary based on what I want, based on what I can't fit into my schedule, which is a victim, or what I can't take on, or what my staff won't let me. I started setting boundaries based on I don't want to, I don't like it. Like, I went back to being like 4 years old, like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Why? I don't want to. It was like so refreshing.

And you know what, people that need to be in your life are still in your life. And like, the world brings you the people that are supposed to be there. Like, we have this whole false belief that if we set boundaries, we— people won't like us, we're going to lose friends, no one's going to ask us to do anything ever again, no one's going to want us to collaborate, no one's going to see us right. But look at what has happened since you've done that.

Yeah. And, and you make room in your life for people who will support your boundaries, who it's not a big deal because they have boundaries too. You inspire each other. So I love that, 30 minutes to get clear. And part of that clarity when you're looking at a pain point in your life is what I teach people: what do I know for sure? And you're like, what do I know to be true? What I love about your boundary process that you give people is it doesn't start with just being brave. It starts with getting clear. Mm-hmm. And getting focused and really getting yourself back into your own embodied living your own life, and then setting a boundary from the inside, from your soul, not from your intellect, or not from, you know, trying to manipulate the world. So as you're getting clear, you recommend us asking ourselves, like, what do I know to be true? Tell us how to, to use that first step.

You know, this is really good because it takes out the emotion or the reactivity of the boundary, like you just talked about. Like, if you're angry and setting a boundary, it's because you've let it go too far or you haven't been transparent. And so what do I know to be true instantly takes out all of the blame and the shame and the negative, like, emotions attached to this that It's just a boundary. Like, that's all I know to be true is that this person is calling me at night to ask me a question about work when I'm not getting paid to work, period. Like, it doesn't mean that they're— that's it. Like, don't— it just takes out—

They're not trying to take advantage of me, and it's not about them not caring, and it's about— it's not about nobody in the world values me. It's just not about any of that. It's about you got a text And they ask you a question and you need to think of whether or not you're going to even answer it.

Yes. Yes. And, and, you know, and then you start going, okay, why is this person doing this? Well, actually, last week they did it and it didn't make me angry because I was watching Netflix. But tonight they're doing it and it's making me angry because I'm at my daughter's dance recital. How would they know that? And that's on me because I need to set a boundary. So it brings out truth and clarity without the drama or blame or shame.

I love that because we often say, like, knowing that they've ruined my whole night, it's like, no, I've let them ruin my night. I allowed this to be a derailer.

Yes. So then you just, you know, then the next thing is, okay, what is the boundary I need to set? I just need to set a boundary with myself. That when I'm not at work, I'm not gonna respond to work emails or texts. That's a boundary that I have to set with me, Sasha, and express it to the people that I work with. This is not like neuro— neurological surgery. This is like setting a simple boundary, right? So I'm just going to set— text back, hey, when I'm at work, I'll answer you, or gotcha, or just respond the next day at work. Just respond when you're at work, right? And then express this. And it's so, you know, then the next question is, who do I need to set the boundary with? And then commit to doing it because it's already taking up brain space and emotion if you're thinking about it and you're frustrated about it. You know, I have this all the time with people when they go on vacation and they say, well, you'd be really proud of me. I didn't answer email on vacation, but I read it. And I'm like, really? How did that make you feel? Well, it angered me. I'm like, then why did you read it? Like, get it off your phone, delete the Outlook, right? Like, it's still taking up brain space. So this is why it's good to ask us these questions about ourselves, these questions about, okay, what do I know to be true? I know that when I read emails on vacation, it takes over my mind and my thoughts, and then I'm not focusing on whatever it is I'm supposed to be doing on vacation to replenish my soul. So I better remove the Outlook app on my phone. So that I don't do this.

Yeah, like, what can I control? I cannot have that come in.

Yes, and it's just simple, and it takes out the drama, it takes out the shame, it takes out the blame, it takes out a false narrative about the other person or whoever is, you know, crossing your boundaries, and it just makes it about a simple boundary that you need to communicate to that person.

That's what I loved about this quick model that you have in the book. I mean, you talk about You take the shame away from us, like why we feel pressure, and that we're not flawed people, and that most of us are in this situation, and that all successful women have some pain point where they need to set boundaries. It's not about whether, you know, you're an adult or not. It's like, and if you do well in one area of your life, probably you'll have something come up that challenges you next. So first you take the shame out of it, and then you start to tell us about how to set boundaries, but you don't go for the behavior change, which is kind of CBT. I like CBT, but you go for deep reflection to go inside. And what's my story around this? What are my limiting beliefs? What's my view of my own worthiness? Let me get clear around this, that by the time it gets to saying the boundary, you really do need 20 seconds of brave or 20 minutes of brave to just say Um, I have something to say. And then once you do it the first time, you can get it routine. Like, I just have these routine things that, um, I'm now able to just tell people. But I think what people most don't think about is how you can just not read the text. I had to set boundaries with so many of my well-meaning friends who wanted to talk to me about, um, people in past relationships, what they're doing today. And I'm just like, you know, that's just completely not helpful for my mental health right now. right now. I have grieved those losses and I'm moving on joyfully. Please don't do that. Or when my New York Times— my book got reviewed in the New York Times, and New York Times are always, this is great, but it's not. Every New York Times review, unless I suppose, you know, it's Glennon Doyle's book, which is amazing, like everyone has things they liked and things they didn't like. That's the point of it. And I've never read it. I know that reading it— I— my agent called me, he said, you're in the New York Times, your books got reviewed. Um, and, um, I just said, and? And he goes, there were some things that were positive and some things that, you know, the reviewer didn't love. I'm like, thank you. And he's like, do you want me to send it to you? I'm like, no, it's been 6 months. I haven't read that review. I have no need to read that review. It has nothing to do with what I will write next. It has nothing to do with how good that book was for me to bring to the world. And what the universe does with that book is, is their business. Like, so it's just a lot of people don't realize how much we have control over that. We can truly just not be part of it. Do you want to hear what happened in the meeting? Actually, I don't. I want to hear if we're moving forward that project or not.

Yes. And you know, it's so interesting because when you realize that You can't— there's so much you can control, but you cannot control other people. And this is what boundaries also taught me, is that I would get angry if someone were even to ask me to do something when I was totally overwhelmed and over-functioning. This is key. Or I would get angry that somebody asked me to work for free, or I would, you know, how dare they? Or I would get angry and I would try to control them. Like, I wanted them not to ask. I wanted them not to even push the envelope. I wanted them not to engage with me. Somehow thinking that they could read my mind and know how busy I am or that I don't do this work for free. Instead of seeing it that when someone asks you to do something, that means you're a woman who shows up. You're a woman who gets it done.

I love this.

Right? So it's an actual—

It's a compliment.

The ask is a compliment.

Of course they come to you.

Yes. It doesn't mean you have to say yes. If you are angry at the ask, that means because you are operating that the expectation is yes and you're going to say yes. That is not operating from a place of power. That is operating from a place of—

Yeah, because you're mad that they asked because you don't know how to say no. So you're mad that you're outsourcing your life. You're like, dang it, they asked, now I have to say yes.

Yes, yes, totally. So once you realize, like, an ask is just an ask, I can't control what other people do. I just have to— I have to live and walk in my clarity and my power. And set the boundary. And the hardest truth for me with all of this was realizing that I was gonna, number one, have to set boundaries eternally for the rest of my life. And number two, that the most difficult boundaries to set are with the people I love the most. That is a powerful truth that once you learn it, you actually see that the more you fear to set a boundary with someone, the more you probably love them, and the more important it is to set the boundary. And be transparent in the boundary, you know, and just say—

That's such wisdom.

I'm sorry, I love you, but I don't want to go to this football game weekend vacation with you because I don't enjoy that. I don't want to do it. I'm not going to be— I'm not going to enjoy myself. Doesn't mean that I don't love you, but I am not going to go to that. Or, you know what, family, we're not coming for Thanksgiving this year. We're having a hard, stressful month, and it's best that we stay home and hunker down by ourselves. Like, these are the conversations that we really have to have. But we fear. And it's actually love when we express it to the person because you are being transparent, you're being vulnerable, you're being honest, you're sharing your own needs. And the people that love you and totally have your back and the people that are rooting for you and cheering for you from the sidelines are going to love you more for that.

Yeah. And if they can't love you in the moment, that if it's your marriage or whatever, that's the time to get some therapeutic help. Because many of us, the reason we fear setting boundaries so much is we came out of family of origins that setting boundaries meant alienation and abandonment. But we're not kids anymore, we're adults. So not going home for Thanksgiving may have our family up in arms, but it— we're adults now. We are in charge of our family, and it really is the process of maturing and And, and growing up and saying yes to things that are a full body yes, that, um, you know, it's just so important as people come in and ask. And what I had to do is separate out some categories. I thought if I loved you, I said yes. And if I didn't love you, it's more okay to say no. And I had a teacher lunch and she's like, you have a lot more options. Whether or not you love somebody and whether or not you're saying yes or no, separate those out. First, get clear about do you love them or not. And if you love them, get clear that you can say yes or no. And if you don't love them, get clear that you can say yes or no. I don't love you at all. In fact, I don't even like you, and I will take this on because I believe it's good for the legacy of this department. Like I just determined if, you know, either way, like, I— somebody else had made my choices for me. And once you start exercising agency or choice, when you find yourself in the unpreferred reality and you want a different future, that space between the unpreferred reality and a different future is your space to evolve and to be the bridge builder. Through your choice, through the boundary you set, you can connect a currently unpreferred reality with a different future. It's the only course correction you can really have that you have agency over, which is why I absolutely love the book. And in the book and in all of your work, you talk about family boundaries, professional boundaries, personal boundaries, electronic, emotional, email boundaries, like space boundaries. Um, your stories are phenomenal, whether they're with your dog or with your kids skiing. So listeners, if you like the way I write, because I don't tell you how to live, I tell you how I have lived, both well and not so well. Sasha's writing is exactly like that. We are unfortunately running out of time, but the book is Brave Boundaries. I end with self-reflection, which is all about take 30 minutes for yourself, your assignment, which I always end with an assignment for self-reflection. 30 minutes for yourself before the ego plans your day. But before we end, I also— Sasha, You know, you have such great pedigree from academics and medicine. I want to talk about Become Brave Enough and the organization that you lead. And it started to be a place for women physicians to find collegiality support, but it's so much bigger than that now. Speak a little bit towards how people can find you and the work you do as far as women So

you can find me at becomebraveenough.com. I have a Friday newsletter, super simple sign up. I don't spam you. You get 30 seconds of brave every Friday from me. And you can come to events, retreats. Be sure to follow me on social media, all of those things I typically post. And thank you so much for having me on. I love talking to you. I get so much energy from Cy. Cy is such a pure, She is pure light. So if you ever are in the area and she is speaking, get there. I'm telling you, she's even better in person than she is on this podcast.

Oh, Sasha, you're very, very sweet. We are mutual fans of one another. And what I'm doing in this podcast is bringing to all of you people that help me on the daily, my resources and the things they bring us to help through the helpers. So Folks, definitely connect in. I will tell you, this is not the first time you're gonna hear about boundaries, or from Sasha and I. Boundaries really are hot. And I had one of my, my son's fiancées show up the other day in a t-shirt that said boundaries are hot. And I'm like, she's in her 20s, and I'm like, dang, just think about how cool that is. Boundaries are hot. And that's what I truly Believe. So that's our next focus. We, you know, over COVID, a lot of us learned to bake bread. I'm hoping your next big thing is you learn to set boundaries, hold boundaries, and tell us your success stories. What are you taking away from this podcast? What things did you do that were awesome and hard? Tell us in the notes and interact with us on social media. Spread the word, share the podcast, give us great ratings. We'll be back. You'll get more. Thanks, everybody, for listening.