S2E1: Steve Pemberton, CHRO of Globoforce

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome, listeners. We are kicking off season 2 of the No Ego Podcast with a huge bang. I'm thrilled to have Steve Pemberton joining me. And You're gonna fall in love with him as much as I did the first time I met him. We actually connected through his role at Globalforce. He is currently the CHRO at Globalforce and is coming to Globalforce with great pedigree, Walgreens, Monster.com, lots of other great positions. But I love his mission at Globalforce, and it's all about inspiring HR leaders to embrace more humanity and foster a sense of purpose in the workplace. And so Steve, welcome Thanks

for having me, Sy. Good to be with you and your listeners.

Thank you. It's so exciting to have you on. I know we're going to get into some really fun topics. I love the mission about embracing more humanity at work. And I know Globalforce is this incredible product and service that so many people in HR are really not enjoying, but their minds are being blown because you're actually taking what seems like just keeping track of data and you're making it so much more human and connecting humans together for incredible work. So I'm going to jump right in. When you talk about embracing more humanity, what's that mean for you at GlobalForce? And what are some of your quick tips or techniques to do that?

Well, any conversations that are focused on humanity should be inclusive of just the broader context and culture in which that humanity is operating. And it's oftentimes a generational thing. Generations have been shaped by moments of peace and prosperity, but also they've been shaped by depression and war and global strife. And what we're experiencing now, it doesn't matter where you turn, from the place that we digest news to our politics to entertainment to even faith-based approaches, you know, there's this kind of common thread running through humanity that seems to be just incredible pessimism and cynicism, you know, independent of how well the stock market's doing and whether or not there's more IPOs being filed. Just, it's hard to find any place where there's a general sense of optimism regarding— regardless of whether you look at the generation that you're speaking to. And so I think that that's an issue, and it's a, it's a major one. The other is the increased isolation that we're experiencing as human beings. We, you know, there was a time when the world was segregated legally, and it just seems to me that we've replaced that with a degree of voluntary segregation aided and abetted by, you know, the use of social media to create echo chambers and disconnecting us when In fact, always the hope was that it would connect us, but what it's— it's not just disconnecting us, but actually dividing us, these kind of edited lives of social media sounding boards, but not really grappling with different kinds of views. So, you know, at Global Force, I think we had the wonderful privilege of simply changing culture, because I think that's what we're wrestling with, is just a need to recalibrate and reshift our humanity through our culture and specifically the ways in which we're looking at, you know, one another and less through the lens of these kind of demographic attributes, you know, where you live, who you vote for, what you look like, what gender you are, what race you are, and more of these common moments of recognition, the ability to see in one another some semblance, some chapters of our own story. Though I may not look like you and be be born in a different and raised in a different part of the world, I ought to be able to find some mutuality, you know, between us. And then to have that manifested in recognizing people for simply the good job that they do on any one specific task is always exciting because it's actionable, but it doesn't necessarily bring a lot of the negative weight that often comes with things like performance reviews, for example, or just You know, these kind of one-time bonus plans, and then there's nothing that we can manage beyond that. So that's been very, very exciting for me.

Wow. I love so much of what you said. And in our past conversations, the approach that you are taking and encouraging others to take that moves away from, you know, just focus on demographics, counting demographics. And I even talk about calling people to greatness. But when people use my work, I say, for evil rather than good, a lot of people I think people wanna call people to greatness and ignore this very real experience we're all having that at times isn't that fulfilling. And for me, the call to greatness comes right after the connection, not instead of the connection. And that's where I think people miss this opportunity where otherwise it's just telling people, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and, you know, sign on to our purpose and mission. But if somebody's not feeling like we've connected and— And so many people connect in negativity about what we all hate rather than connecting in what's our current experience and how can we collectively come together with shared accountability to make it better. And so there's just so much about what you said that's just absolutely fantastic.

Well, I'm always struck by this idea of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. There's a common refrain to that, which is, well, tell that to the person who has no boots.

I love that.

And then tell that, and then the person with no boots who would complain, well, tell that to the person with no feet. You know, so, you know, it's all relative, it seems to me. And there is at times this, you know, this unwillingness to recognize the head starts that we get, whether it's born into a wonderful family, attending a great school, or, you know, the benefit of a mentor. You know, I think we're using side the wrong word, though, actually. that ignites this kind of defensiveness, you know, because every time you— it's literally a phrase, right? Cloaked in privilege. And it kind of ignores the enormous, at times generational effort that went into creating those opportunities. So I don't begrudge anybody who has worked extremely hard to create opportunities for themselves, for their families. But there also has to be a recognition that there are others who are born into circumstances that they did not choose, that they did not ask for, and that that person making the judgment wouldn't trade places with them. And if you can recognize that and say, okay, well, maybe this individual is at a stage where my grandparents were as, let's say, immigrants to America, and trying, didn't speak the language, trying to find an opportunity. You know, those are the same kinds of archetypes that we have in society today. In fact, I think it's the wrong question, wrong generally to make the judgment. It's more, well, what can I do then to help give you an opportunity to participate in the American dream with the expectation that you're going to do something with your chance? So it's a duality of the chance, right? It's responsibility. I'm looking for a chance, but I also have to do something with it when it comes

I love that. And this podcast is all about no ego, and duality is really a favorite of the ego. It's like, well, I, you know, worked hard, so you should have to. And there's all this, this peace and incredible things that happen when we move beyond duality and we find that magic word of and, which is— I was You know, maybe benefit of a generation who was able to move themselves beyond. So my parents were high school graduates, and I was able to move beyond and seek out college and be helped in that way. And then how can we, you know, create the ands? There are many people that take the message that I give about accountability, and they get a little confused between accountability and access. Mm-hmm. And so I just love what you said about how can we provide the chance? What can I do individually and in all the groups I have influence in, make sure I'm providing the chance that would be access? And then how can I call out and foster accountability and responsibility in the other person so they use that chance well? And for me, I think at times we seek to look only towards accountability without first checking whether someone had access Because without access, it's hard to be accountable to something you never got a shot at. What are your thoughts on access and accountability? Do you want to elaborate more on that?

Sure. Well, one, I, you know, there's this wonderful historical example of the importance of access. And this actually happened before you and I were born, or we were younger ones depending wherever you were in 1957. But something really, really important happened in America. You woke up that Saturday morning and every newspaper in the country carried this story. It moved all other news to the bottom of the page, including Jimmy Hoffa being elected president of the Teamsters, which is a big deal. And, you know, union-driven America at the time. But this story drove it to the back pages. And What drove it to the back pages was the launch of Sputnik. So the Soviets had fired a satellite off into space. They were able to track it and could communicate with the satellite, and it ignited a great deal of concern here in America because of the dawn of the nuclear age. And so the Soviets beaten us to space and could send, you know, things off into space, communicate back with it. What could they send over here in the way of weaponry to destabilize America. So it ignites this major, major exploration and investigation. Going into it, Americans believed that the Russians were smarter than us, and they realized pretty quickly that it wasn't an intelligence issue. It wasn't that, you know, the Russians were smarter. It was that they were better at developing access so that they could create scientists and engineers faster than we were. And because they were, they were able to beat us to space. Now, fortunately, we recalibrated really, really quickly. The American school day was lengthened, the financial aid system was created, NASA was, was created. But that historical example gives you a really good example of this duality. of access and accountability because you had broad swaths of America who were being shut out of these opportunities to participate in STEM disciplines, and it was costing us. Now, we corrected by saying, okay, well, look, we have to be accountable, you know, to ourselves to create these pipelines and then have heightened degree of expectations. The other, you know, kind of important thing to consider here is The very person on the receiving end of access does not want a lowered bar. It's almost an offense and an insult to say, well, you know, we want to lower the bar for you because of whatever the consideration is. No, it's actually you want an opportunity to participate at the same levels as everybody else does. And I get it. It is very difficult to accept that there are people actively working to limit access, but that is a hard reality. They absolutely are. And so you have to fight against that. And at the same time, recognize that you have a unique opportunity to provide, you know, that degree of access, whether it is providing scholarships, for example, through our organizations to increase pipelines, which is what they did in the late '50s and '60s, as an example. You know, we can all lean in, you know, to this opportunity to create access. And then, Sai, there's another really important factor that's happening now and it's creating collisions, enormous collisions, and has everything to do with diversity. So as the country is rapidly diversifying, we're not seeing the same participation rates in higher education that drives access in particular. So for example, you, you have fewer African American men in medical school today than you did in the 1970s. And if you look at young girls abandoning STEM disciplines as early as the 6th and 7th grade because of the the messages they're getting about what's available to them. You can't reasonably expect to be globally relevant or competitive when you have a population that is rapidly increasing and diversifying and don't have access, whether you're talking about inferior schools, or just, you know, lack of outreach on the part of industries to help drive their pipelines, which is what we're seeing, not just in STEM, but we're also seeing it in the legal profession, and we're seeing it in the medical profession too.

One of the things I think people confuse is women's rights with access for women or minority rights with access for minorities, and as if having the right to actually creates the reality of. I do quite a bit of work in India, and you can point out some ways that perhaps there aren't equal rights for men and women in India, but the access is equalizing quicker than access in the United States where supposedly there's, you know, equal rights for all of us. But I love what you said. Let's— a couple of things that I'd love to comment on. What you said about not lowering the bar is so important because when I talk to people about having high standards, I'm like, keep your standards, don't lower the standard, up the support. Because a lot of times, you know, if there is access available, upping the support means making sure people are aware. And I know for myself, When somebody first talked to me about college, I knew what it cost and said I couldn't go. And somebody blew my mind. They're like, well, people will give you scholarships. I'm like, what? Who pays for your college? Like, how does that even work? You know? And so I remember that I probably always had access that I didn't know about. But what you and a couple other folks have really helped me to come to understand, especially in the last few years, is there are people actively working Against access or actively working to dismantle access in a very troubling way. And how can we— excuse me— how can we, you know, as individuals, just make sure that we're upping our support of others and we're really making sure that we don't watch access get dismantled, you know, while all of that is happening? So you speak from a lot of experience. I first just had so much respect for you as a professional, and I'd never heard your personal story until we were together at the last Work Human conference, which is the conference in my mind to get yourself to if you're in HR or in leadership. But you speak from experience because I think your story really helps me understand that just because I'm sitting across the table from an uber competent, confident, brilliant person, that I need to reach out to continue to understand the backstory Not only do I wanna connect with you knowing your backstory, but everyone's backstory I find makes me a better person because it just gives me perspective and compassion. People's backstories open up my heart and my mind. And so it's been what I've been doing the last couple years is like getting to know people's backstories so that I can understand my world better because my world tends to be really small. Do you wanna share a bit about your backstory so people know you speak not just from professional credibility, but from a bit of personal credibility?

Sure. Well, one, I, Just a quick point on that wonderful counsel you gave, don't lower the bar, up your support. You know, for your listeners, jot that one down because that is— that crystallizes exactly both the issue and the solution all in one short sentence. And what you're describing as backstory, I call the first picture. Oh,

I love that.

You know, the first picture is what you see when you see us. And there are things that you see when you see us. You see our gender, you see our race, you see how we're dressed. when we start talking if we have an accent. I am from Boston. I have been told repeatedly that I have an accent, though I don't hear it, and it's a Boston accent. So I'm always told, say, park the car in Harvard Yard, you know, just to get the full effect, right? So those are— that's a first picture. But the first picture is rarely the full picture. Your first picture are things that I can see, but they don't really say much more to me about your life experience. Where you were raised, how you were raised, what values you were raised with, what you do, what level you are in a company, where you worship, what your passions are. And so much of the disconnect in America today is this rallying to the first picture, which is being routinely exploited, by the way, particularly in the political world, by both sides. So I'm over 50 now, so I can say what I want to and let it land where it lands.

Good. That's why I have you on.

Both sides are guilty of exploiting the first picture, and they have a ready and willing participant in not all media, but too much of a significant part of the media that's not interested in the fuller picture. You know, for me, I learned this firsthand after I decided to write about my full picture. My first picture is Steve went to Boston College, been happily married to his wife Tanya for the last 21 years. They have 3 teenagers. He's a corporate executive, a philanthropist, serves on a number of boards, enjoys golf and reading whatever he can get his hands on. That's my first picture, by and large. I'm African American, I'm male, you hear me speak, I'm from Boston. The full picture is I grew up actually south of Boston in a community called New Bedford. And I grew up in the foster care system. I am the son of a mother who died of alcoholism when I was 8 and a father who was murdered when I was 5. But the truth of it is that they were both gone from my life long before then. I was taken away from my mother when I was 3. I never saw her again. And my father, though he passed away when I was 5, I have no memory of him. He never even told anybody about the presence of a child in his life. And then I got lost in the gaps of the foster care system, taken in by a number of families who took me in for money. And so every day of my childhood was just an enormous fight. And I don't know anything, even to this day, I don't have any memory of a day when it wasn't an enormous battle, whether it was to be safe, to eat, to learn, or then Another battle to get to college. And then after graduating college, a battle to try and find my origins and where I come from. And though that was, you know, that's my kind of backstory, the thing that I realized, Sai, that is so inspirational to me is the number of other stories that I hear from other people. So it's helped me realize that we don't have the same story. None of us do. But we do have mutual chapters. And the first picture never tells you what those mutual chapters are. So the conversation, just literally as an example, though, you and I spent some time together. As you were describing that experience of, of how am I going to get to college, that's exactly what I went through too. I went to live with a teacher for my last year of high school. I too sat down with him and said, I want to get to college. I don't know how to do that. He said, well, you're an outstanding student. You're going to get accepted anywhere you want to. I said, but I can't afford it. And he says, well, don't worry about that. I think that you're going to qualify for scholarships. And I literally, Sai, I asked him, what is a scholarship? He said, free money. Well, I know what that was, right? So I applied. In fact, one night he sends me on this little assignment. He says, you have to go— I want you to go to guidance counselor's office and get this big book on scholarships. And then you come through it because he wanted me to work at it. And so he said, go through the book and see which ones you should apply for. So I, I saw one, I circled it, and it was for left-handers. And he said— I said, I'm going to apply for this one. And he said, yeah, but you're not left-handed. I said, yeah, I know that, but I'm willing to be. So, so then he sees— he sees me doing this, and then he circles one and he slides that back across to me. And even when I look at the name of the scholarship, I knew I could not— there's no way I could win this. And the reason I couldn't win it was because it was called Daughters of the American Revolution. So I applied for Daughters of the American Revolution scholarship. And as he predicted, you know, they surely did reject me. But, you know, my broader point is you and I had that same kind of experience. Right. And if you and I voted differently, different genders, different races, and if that's all we talked about, I'd say, well, we'd find some similarities maybe, but we're more likely to get into a confrontation if that— if we were, you know, kind of engages on the first picture. But let you and I talk about how you're going to afford college. Well, we'd be there for a long time.

Absolutely. And one of the techniques that I talk to people about is if you find your mind closing on someone or some situation, it's hard to get past our biases and judgments, you know, immediately and open our mind back up, just like if it were a lever. That's a little hard. But a sneaky technique, a really effective one, is if you can't open your mind back up immediately, try and open your heart up because your heart and mind are connected. And so if I get into judgment and we talk a lot about stop judging, start helping, but if I get into judgment or I'm seeing how we're different or how you're a threat to me, if I can get to that story, And our common chapter in that story, that can open my heart up, which opens my mind up. And vice versa. If you've hurt me, you know, in our relationship, one of the things I can do to get beyond the heart hurt is open my mind up by trying to be flexible and understanding, is there more than the reason I'm believing that he might have done that? Could there be other plausible explanations? And this is just an exercise for people as they are starting to— You know, work beyond some of this divisiveness is every day get mentally flexible to open your mind up about people who've hurt you and get open-hearted and compassionate and find your common chapters for people that you're mentally judging. It's like open heart, open mind, open mind, open heart. And I just, I love that about what you're saying. And I'm excited to tell people that you won't brag about this, but I'll brag for you. So you had the bestselling memoir, A Chance in the World. That was recently. I saw the trailer made into a movie, a motion picture. Is it— is the movie out yet?

It will be out digitally in the fall.

I love it.

That was just an exciting process to go to. It's always a— it will still always— well, it's always going to be a weird thing to me, to be perfectly honest, you know, just because it wasn't anything that I was anticipating. And certainly in the way of response, you know, I It's exactly what we just talked about. The reason, uh, that it's found an audience, um, was because of this commonality, which I was not trying to do. I wasn't even aware that I was doing it. Uh, I remember the first, you know, message that I received right after the book was published. Uh, a man emailed me to say that he appreciated me talking about my journey because it helped him come to terms with his own journey, which had included a very turbulent childhood. But the last thing he said that I thought was so powerful to me was he said, I've carried this pain my whole life. And at 73 years old, I had just grown to accept the fact that I always would. But after reading your story and seeing how common our experiences were, It gave me a certain peace. Now, of course, you know, you got to pause when you read something like that.

Yeah.

But the truth of it is I did not sit down and try to do that. I wasn't trying to do that. I had no idea that I was writing a chapter of somebody else's life. And so that message, and then the many that I have received since then— I get messages every day. with that same kind of narrative. And it's in that same spirit. And so what that's done is it has opened my mind up to the reality that though my sufferings were great and considerable, it'd be, you know, it'd be wildly, I think, I guess wildly arrogant of me to think I'm the only one who's endured it. And I have learned that I have learned that just about every single day. And people, I'm just in awe of their heroism. I mean, they are truly extraordinary in many ways.

It's so true. And it really gives you perspective because one is claiming your own story. And, you know, the second is gaining that perspective that we have those common chapters that people have been through stuff. You know, for me, I loved the book, and I read it with 2 kind of minds. One, I read it to better understand what your daily fight was like. And 2, I read it as this cast of characters came together to— without their intentions, really, of touching you in ways that absolutely became life-changing. And so I've also read it from that perspective of how can I be like, you know, the teacher you had at the spelling bee, or how can I— How can I be like those folks? Just making sure that I, in really challenging times, troubling times, that instead of shutting down and withdrawing from the world and isolating, that I keep going out there and trying to connect with people. Because when I preach reality-based leadership, a lot of people are like, oh, it's tough love. And I really want to correct that. I'm like, no, reality's tough. Leadership is not. Love. And, and yeah, is it tough love that we don't want to enable people or we don't want to set up dysfunctional, you know, situations for them? But, you know, we can foster purpose at work. And you're the one who needs to step up and marry your purpose with ours. And, and I think what you did was without motive. You did what you needed to do to be authentic. And the cool part is you brought your piece to the world and then other people are able to connect with it. Yeah. But what I really got out of your book and other people's stories is that I have a story of what happened to me. Now, I can go back and add my own story on top of that about even when I'm victimized, I can take it to the next degree of victimhood. But what's most important is that access to me is handing somebody a new pen with fresh ink and saying, I get the story that has been written for you and you've written for yourself. What if you could write the next chapter and it doesn't have to be a continuation? What if this is like a choose-your-own-path book? And giving somebody fresh ink and saying, you know what, if you can work through and learn some better mental processes and learn how to, not only what a scholarship is, but how to do this and then step up to it, I can help you write a really different chapter. And I think that's Leadership at its finest is helping people write the next chapter rather than dwell on the last chapter. Well,

that's ultimately what you're measured by, what leaders are measured by. I've always thought that if you wanted to see how effective a leader really is, go see what happens when they're no longer there.

Yeah, I call that the shadow, the shadow of a leader. And if you have a long shadow, that means long after you're gone, People are still leveraging and benefiting from things that you taught them. Or, you know, for us, it's getting rid of drama through good mental processes. And so when I teach you, when you're in a situation and you're about to step down, to ask yourself, what would great look like? And then go be great. There's gonna become that moment where I'm not there, and you're gonna be like, I wish Sy were here, but then she would just tell me, go be great. So who needs Sy anymore? That lives in me. And that's what I'm hoping for, as all of our leadership legacies, that people have internalized their experience with us into a better way of thinking and a better way of dreaming.

Yeah. You know, that kind of recalibration of leadership is so— we're in such desperate need of it now. You know, I think we're in many ways You know, back to that earlier point, the, you know, what is the driving factor here? You know, a lot of times I would argue based on my— I did my undergraduate work in political science, my graduate work in sociology, and I often think that, you know, your politics is a reflection of your culture. You know, growing up in Massachusetts, the idea of service was all around me. It just filtered into everything that I that I encountered. The idea of a service-oriented society that has long been one of the probably understated elements of American culture is so far in the back room of discussion now, though we've benefited from it enormously. If you look at the suffragettes who marched for the right, the right for women to vote, or those who went off to fight Hitler, including my grandfather, or those who got on freedom buses. You know, 3 different generations by and large, and yet they had this common thread. If you asked them why you were doing that, so if you said to these women, you know, if you go marching in that suffragette parade, you know, you're going to get beat with the picket signs you're carrying and men are going to spit on you. And then if you tell the men going off to fight Hitler, you know, there's a really good chance you're not going to come back. Or the people who got on freedom buses and you told them, you know, you're going to be subjected to the worst kind of inhumanity in your protests of what is this inalienable right. They still would all have— they all had the same answer for you.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it for future generations. I'm doing it so My granddaughter will vote one day so that my grandson won't have to deal with fascism and for my son to enjoy equal rights. You know, there was this— you want to talk about no ego?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, you're just in awe of them and what they were willing to sacrifice, not for themselves because they didn't think it was going to happen in their lifetime. They were thinking about future generations.

Well, and I just was thinking the same thing. We really imagine Yeah. You touched on that thought, Steve, where that's the ultimate definition of no ego. That, you know, if for me to kind of, you know, open up and kind of bare my heart, I mean, that what you just described is what I would love to reinstill in the workplace and in the world is this place beyond ego where you move out of fearfulness and the whole ego and what's gonna happen to me. And you align yourself with this possibility, this connection to source, this, when you talk about a global force your mission, fostering a sense of purpose, that I can align with that to where I'm so committed that I'm willing to forego my own safety in those cases. And knowing that I contributed to a greater purpose, a greater outcome. And when we're in our lower self, when we get smaller in our minds, we really get into defense and protecting what's in it for me and short-term thinking. Rather than getting into this long-term piece. And I agree with you. I think a lot of people initially, their politics will match their culture, their upbringing. I think there comes a point where we all have to reflect and say, do my values, are they still the same? Or given my experiences and my worldview and my education, is it time for me to make sure that my politics align with who I am today rather than how I was brought up and what I want for the future.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, there's almost this— there has to be this element of self-preservation of society, of our society, in order to do that. I mean, the hard reality is that, you know, diversity, as an example, is not going away. You know, the people, whether We're talking about women who are fighting for just civility in the workplace vis-à-vis the MeToo movement, or, you know, African Americans who no longer want to have to sit down with their teenage sons and walk them through every detail of how to navigate a police stop, as I have to with my sons. Now, we want that world, right? You don't want to have to sit there and— I know my wife doesn't want to talk to my daughter as she gets older about what she's going to have to worry about and how to handle, you know, sexual assault in the workplace, right? But these are the conversations that are happening. And that changes character in a way. And so while you can— and you have to address those things because regrettably there are, you know, there are people whose bends are the other way, you know, but what if, particularly in our workplaces, I also think that we can address it by focusing on, trite though it may sound, the goodness, you know, the goodness in the land that is still around us, primarily local and in our workplaces. That's what I so much enjoy about Global Force is the very foundation of what we do is recognizing people for the goodness that they do. And that is so much more sustainable. than fear-based leadership, right, or ego-based leadership. You know, there's— yeah, at first glance it appears to be successful, but to your point around the shadow leader, you know, a lot of times it's like if it's a dark shadow, once that shadow's gone, you're like, well, gee, I'm just glad that, you know, they're not around anymore.

Yeah, the wicked witch is dead.

Exactly.

You know what I think is important about What you're saying right now that I want listeners to ponder is, so we've come out, for instance, with something like the MeToo movement or just recently the hashtag Living While Black, like I'm barbecuing in the park and somebody makes a phone call because they're scared. And I think if we— while we needed to stand up and say, timeout, this is wrong, what we have Yeah. In our current situations, we have some people hopefully feeling some guilt, and then we have too many people feeling shame. And the shame comes from people maybe just not knowing or being of another generation or having that— those unconscious biases. And I think while we want with our movements to really hold and foster accountability for people who have guilt, what we want to do is relieve people from shame. Because if you know better, you do better. And if we can celebrate the goodness in you and just ask you to behave accordingly. It's really a different call to greatness than the shame of you're part of a stereotype or a gender or that's responsible for this, because I think our discussions are really going covert when there's a lot of shame. But what I love about what I've witnessed you doing is just bringing it out, a shameless dialogue. You know, here's our state, here's what we— what we need to talk about. And we don't have all the answers. And we're going to wrestle with this. We're going to be in tension. We're going to be intentional. And I think that is so shame-relieving. And my worry is if we just leave it in all the movements we've created that call out what's wrong, we may not know how to move beyond it.

No, I agree. You know, it depends on what your starting point is. You know, if the only time that you're talking to women about gender in the workplace is in the context of sexual harassment, then boy, are you denying yourself just about every single important measure of performance, you know, innovation, counsel, you know, that can come from gender. You know, as I look down the runway of my life, I I unabashedly can tell you that I have been surrounded by an army of strong women, and I am purposeful about that too, by the way. I'm purposeful about that because for me, that was so helpful and so instructive and so important to me. Now, as a CHRO, you can best believe that I'm going to want that perspective around me. But I also know that if I am not creating as a leader the right environment for women to share their perspectives that can come from gender specifically, then as a driver of innovation, I'm going to completely miss out on opportunities, you know, from a marketplace standpoint. And I'm probably not getting her full, you know, support. And I think the same thing is true for race as well. The other thing about shame is that it almost puts all the scales of justice on one side. But just about everybody I know has had to be educated about something that they were unaware of, right? I mean, you know, so there's a difference between— and there's, you know, some folks who need to be shamed for their behaviors. But I think that does get confused with those who do not, to your point, who do not know better. And there's no malice, there's no bad intention. They simply weren't aware. I have had And many moments like that. In fact, probably about a year ago, I was giving a presentation and I was referring to and talking about so much negativity in the world. I used the word tribalism. And I had someone who was Native American who came to me and said, I know you didn't intend anything negative by that term, but it has a negative— the way— she didn't say the way I used it was negative, but she said to say it in that context—

Context. means tribalism's a negative, not a positive.

Exactly right. And you know what? She was exactly right. So now you can best believe I haven't used it since. But if I were to get defensive or feel shamed by it, I didn't know. And now I do. So I'll be better.

Yeah. And I think that's the key. I mean, if somebody has offended, let's hold them accountable. And that's appropriate guilt and appropriate consequence. But what I don't want to do is, as people, myself included, are waking up, I don't want what people wake up to is shame. Because, you know, I watch as my Midwesterner son boys and my 54-year-old husband who was raised in the Midwest as a white guy, I watch them eagerly waking up, myself too. I don't want to just put it on them, but I don't want what they wake up to is shame around what they didn't know. Now, responsibility, now that they know, accountability, absolutely. And I just worry that if we're wanting people to become more enlightened, we can't make their only prize this shame. And so that's, you know, what I think about a lot. And in fact, the people that need some waking up, it's okay for me to feel the shame of their discovery. Like when I've realized what I've done wrong, for me to feel that guilt. But I also think it has to do with accountability levels. Like when you were— when someone from a Native nation shared that with you, it's like you were accountable and self-reflective. You're like, yeah, gosh dang. If it were me, I'd be a bit embarrassed because I don't like when I don't know. My ego's like, oh, I want to know. to look better on stage. But I'm grateful because I'm accountable. And I was just talking to a colleague and he was talking about, you know, the whole hashtag Black Wall Living. And, you know, I said a lot of that has to do with accountability levels, because if somebody is high in accountability, if they feel fear or suffering or discomfort, they have a process of sorting. Accountability means you can sort. So I sort out Who's responsible in this? I'm uncomfortable. A high accountable goes, let's sort first with me. What's my bias? What's my discomfort? Is it real? Where do I need to grow? And then looks to the organization or the police or the community to do their part. If somebody is low in accountability, they go, I feel uncomfortable. The police should do something. And so for me, low in accountability is like low in self-reflection. And so I think our way out of a lot of this is fostering self-reflection. So I don't immediately see somebody moving into an apartment, feel uncomfortable and call, but I have this place of self-reflection where I go, wait a minute, what's my part in this? And what's my bias? And what's my racism? And what's my, you know, what can I do for this rather than just, you know, not even reflecting on that fear? And so I continue to think that— That we can move through this through human connection, self-reflection, fostering accountability, calling each other up to greatness. I just come back to that same prescription. We're getting close on time. I could talk to you for about 14 years, but both of you and I have probably some work to do. Concrete things where if you just had the stage and we've got about 12,000 listeners the stage to these listeners and you said, you know, here's a couple of things if I had my wish that you would do on a regular basis. Like, what advice do you have for them to be better people and better leaders?

One, start with what you do well. It's true as individuals. It's true as organizations. What is it that we do well? And there's something that you do well. And it doesn't matter what the area or the topic or the focus is. I find that that begets discretionary effort. It creates sustainable practices, it drives innovation, and it engages people as well. It doesn't mean declaring victories, just acknowledging things that we do well. The other is that as a leader, there's one question that I found, for me anyway, to be more effective than probably anything else that I've done in building great teams, and it's to always ask my team, what don't I know? Because that invites a whole series of discussions and dialogues. You know, to use your phrase, that's a no-ego question, right?

It is.

It is. What don't I know? And but I— because I realize that, you know, because of our careers or where we sit at the top of the org chart, you know, there's an inherent deference, natural deference to the person who is president or vice president or whatever it might be. But it doesn't mean that person's always right. But it's on that leader to create the environment where people can hold up the mirror. Because mirrors aren't simply to reflect what you see. In that sense, you know, it's how you build teams not necessarily to reflect you but to correct you when— and they have a lot of other value too, of course. But really strong teams hold up a sign and say, I think we're, you know, this is not the right way, or it's giving me pause. And you can go back through the process. So, I think you know, creating those kinds of discussion points. The other that often gets, gets missed is, which we've, we've touched around this during our discussion, but, you know, who can I touch and impact?

Yeah.

You know, the Greeks say that a society grows great when we plant trees in whose shade we know we will never sit. I've realized as I've— as I have ascended in terms of my own career, I actually feel a greater responsibility You know, to make sure that I am doing for others what was done for me. You know, life does move on despite our protests. Otherwise, we still may think that we're 23, 24, but we're not. We're, you know, well into our careers. But there are people who are that now, and we were once that too. And remember that those are the same kinds of questions that you had about careers and how do I get started and You know, those questions are still out there and we have an opportunity, you know, to ultimately answer those questions and be that guide. That's what you get measured more by ultimately, you know, as a leader.

Love it. Great, great advice. I love the new question to add to everybody's tool bag. You know, what don't I know gets you back to beginner's mind. And your assignments, I always give assignments to my listeners. Go out there and see, notice where access is being either actively or passively blocked and find out how you, through just simple human interaction, can help people shoot that gap and find their next place that they're trying to get into. So Steve, I can't thank you enough. I know it was just a wonderful professional favor you did by coming on my podcast. And people need to go out, read the book, watch the movie, A Chance in the World. How else can they get ahold of you? Or are you out there tweeting or doing great stuff?

Yeah, I'm on all the major social media platforms. So from Instagram and LinkedIn to Twitter and Facebook. And you can also reach out to me through directly through my site, stevepemberton.io. The book is called A Chance in the World. And the film adaptation of that That will be out, uh, in the fall.

Perfect. My privilege. Thank you. And I look forward to finding more ways that we've got some shared chapters. And I really appreciate it. I know our listeners do too. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Cy.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.