S2E12: Sue-Ellen Watts, Founder, HR Consultant, Writer

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome listeners to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. It is season 2 where I am riffing a bit myself on what it's like to lead in an evolved workplace and I'm also bringing you some of my most spiritual leaders that have helped me in my lifetime. But today I am bringing you an evolved leader herself. Now, I've been interviewing a lot of people that are working in large corporations as a CHRO or a senior leader. And today I want to shake it up a bit. And you guys are going to love my guest. I'm going to shake it up because I'm bringing you Sue Ellen Watts. I call her Sel. And she's from Australia. So you're just going to love the accent anyway. You have to listen twice to— So I first hear the accent and then hear the amazing wise things she has to say. But Sal works with entrepreneurs. She's here in New York and is starting a consulting firm on, um, the stateside, although she's got tons of years of experience in Australia. And she's helping entrepreneurs and founders reconnect with their purpose in their own businesses, but to use the lessons she's learned as an entrepreneur to lead your businesses in a more modern way. So she's My, one of my favorite consultants, because she too, like me, likes to throw away traditional leadership philosophy because it doesn't work. And she practices a modern philosophy. And with that very long introduction, welcome, Sal.

Thank you, Sai. That was a great introduction.

You can use that on your—

I'm going to write it out and I'm going to put that on my website. That was great.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, it's so fun. We're connecting in New York, which is the fact that we got both of us in one room at the same time is pretty Awesome. Yes.

Well, we've had some good calls between Australia and the US.

We have. It's been wonderful. We've taught— you've taught me a lot. And, uh, so I am so excited. First, let our listeners in on some of your incredible history. You're a founder, an entrepreneur, a consultant, a go-getter. Like, if you guys think I have energy, Sal runs circles around me.

I'm not sure about that. Maybe we're just like— we're in this on the same level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, so I started my first business 11 years ago in Australia called What's Next. And the purpose of that was basically to help small to medium enterprise be great workplaces, create great workplaces. Because I was a big believer that if someone goes to work and the workplace is great, then when they leave, they're more likely to do good things in the world. Yeah. So they're more likely to get involved in the community and have good relationships and be happy. And if they work for a not so good workplace, the opposite happens. They go home, they snap at their partner, they don't go out and be fit, all of those things.

I love that. So it's like a key amplifier of if we can have a great place for you to work, then we can amplify the great things you could do in the world. I love that perspective. Yeah.

And then there's the ripple effect. So it's like, well, the more workplaces that we can, we can get into and help, um, and, and especially in small business where Someone who, I believe, someone who chooses to work in a small business, you know, they're taking big risks. It's hard, you know, that you feel every single bump as the employee. You're very involved. And I think it's a different, a completely different journey to working in a big corporate. So—

Totally. And entrepreneurs take big risks except with their talent, which is so— we'll get to this, but it's so interesting to me. They risk their entire lives for their idea, their business, their passion. But when it comes to even just coaching somebody and taking a risk, That if they can't answer that call to greatness, they might transition out of the organization. That risk seems too big for most entrepreneurs to make. It's funny how risk-averse they are when it comes to really insisting on greatness from their people.

Well, yes, they do that for themselves, and that was absolutely my journey. I would just let everyone get away with anything because I wanted them to be happy. I wanted them to like me. I wanted them to like my workplace. And, you know, if they left, it was like, well, what did I do wrong? And what— What didn't you like? It's personal. It was personal. And, and I really, when I look back over the journey of building out a team, and mind you, I didn't, I didn't sign up for being a great manager and leader. I wanted to build a business. Yeah. And I didn't think about, well, now people are going to be looking at me and expecting me to lead them and have the answers and, and make the right choices and all of those things, which, you know, we're human and we don't. And as entrepreneurs, we're just working it out as we go along.

Absolutely. I started a business, I went out on my own so I wouldn't have to manage people. Like literally, I was a leader for a long time and I'm like, I'm gonna start my own business. But the problem is, is if you have success, you're back into leadership and management. You can't escape it.

Yeah, and I found that, and I think when it was really small, we sort of used to make decisions together around the table and there wasn't that— I didn't have to keep people accountable. I didn't have to manage what they're doing. But then when it starts getting bigger and you know, not every single person in your team is going to be an A-player. And, you know, so suddenly, suddenly I'm spending more time having to be a manager, which I don't feel is my, my area of strength. And, uh, yeah, so, so then I could see my behaviors around what I would do to keep everyone happy, which was the worst thing. Not good for the business, but absolutely not good for them. Yeah. It actually stunted their growth. Um, so anyway, I, so now, and what actually occurred over the time of building out that, consulting firm was that in the end, most of our services and products were developed because I implemented them for me. Because I was like, you know, these job description things don't work, or performance reviews don't work this way, or my organizational structure is, is not right, so it's impacting me. So I would then spend time fixing my business and go, this is amazing, and then I'd sell it.

And that's why I think we're kindred spirits, because a lot of people love my stuff because it's research-based or evidence-based, but yours is evidence-based, and I call it like tribal learning. You are out there in this lab called called your business, figuring out what really works for entrepreneurs and founders. And then when you perfect it through your own company, you've beta tested it, and then you go out and sell it. Most of your products, as you said, or services or advice or consulting is stuff that actually works because you've worked it rather than theory out there. Yeah. And so much of the old leadership stuff is theory because a lot of the HR people practicing the old leadership that they hear at a conference and they're like, oh, that sounds good, Yeah, I mean,

I'm a big believer in the missing link for a lot of HR professionals is that they've never had to eat their own sandwich, if you like. Yeah. And so they, when they hire and fire people, they're doing it for someone else. They're not actually sitting at night thinking, I have to fire that person tomorrow who I'm really good friends with, who I sit next to every day, and who now it's going to impact my workload. They're advising and helping someone else to do it. And I think it's, it's a whole different experience when you've actually been in that person's shoes as opposed to, well, in theory, this is how we hire or this is how we fire or performance manage. And I think there is a massive gap there. And when we hear this saying of, you know, why don't I have a seat at the table, which I just can't stand that, that saying.

That in itself is so old. It's like, there is no table, you guys. Everybody wants to sit at the table. I'm like, Okay, there's no table. We're doing, you know, no huddle offense for an American football analogy. There's no table, there's no huddle. Go add value, report back.

Go add value. It's like if you're adding value, you don't need to worry about any table or any, or any seats.

And people say, I want to be valued. And my response to them is, if you want to be valued, add value. I have people, maybe I don't have a seat at the table, but they conference call me in because they know in this situation I'll Add value, you know, and you and I want to get into some of your best advice. But I an insight I had in talking to you is that so many people who listen to this that are currently maybe working for you know a corporation, but they have their side hustle or you know in the gig economy, and the fantasy a lot of times is I want to go into business for myself so I don't have to deal with any of this. It's like so many founders and entrepreneurs I talked to did their deal because they had a passionate idea, but it was an escape route. They're like, "I want to escape." Whatever this is, I call it the drama, the emotional waste, but there's no escape from it. One, most of it's your own mental game. And so you bring it with you, whatever gig you're doing, you bring your own stuff, but there's no escape. You will always be given by the universe the very next thing you need to evolve you. And if you've ignored a lesson for the last 10 years, I don't care if you're in business for yourself, that lesson will land in your lap. For me, over 20 years of being in business, I get that lessons just keep coming around until I learn them and learn boundaries and, and some of those places.

Yeah, it keeps hitting you on the head, smacking on the head harder and harder and harder until you say, oh, actually, I think I'm meant to learn something here and perhaps change my behaviors. Change my behavior.

Oprah says it starts with a whisper. For me, it always took like a 2x4 where the universe is like, you will learn that this time or we'll just keep coming back around. What What do you think are some of the key lessons that are the key value pieces that you bring to entrepreneurs that—

Yeah.

That you've learned yourself? Like, what are some of those?

Well, I think that because the clients that I work with are entrepreneurs and founders, and that is me, I connect. So I know exactly what they're going through because I've been through all the same things. And just because I have a people consulting firm doesn't mean that I have got all my people things right. I have made every single mistake that my clients have made, probably 10 times worse.

Which I love, 'cause you're vulnerable. I say that all the time from the stage. You guys, I write books on this, but I screw it up, but only daily. Like, we still have the human condition. We can't escape the human condition. But the deal is not that we don't know it, it's that it's progress, not perfection. Like, we're always working to progress this thing.

Yeah, and I think that we are, we're on the court, we're playing the game, and we're, you know, we're getting knocked all of the time. And that's how we become, I think, good advisors to others. And especially if you're committed to personal development and really looking at, why was I so bad today? Like, why was my team so disengaged when I gave that talk? Or why is everyone really unhappy at the moment? You know, what am I doing? Yeah. And because that's the reality, that's business. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, it will be ups and downs and You'll get it right some days and get it so wrong the next day. So I think that has been— is probably one of the things where if I was talking about competitors, my competitors haven't actually put their house on the line, you know, every day.

They've read about HR philosophy and they seek to take it to the workplace. What you and I are taking is you can use HR philosophy and all the traditional approaches until reality hits.

Would you know that one of the best assets is I dropped out of university 3 times and never finished any qualifications. I love that. And I actually think that was, you know, one of the many gifts because ultimately everything I've learned has just become from doing and observing and watching and feeling the pain. And then some things going, you know, I say to my clients, I think HR is the most overworked department. You know, there's so many forms, so many processes, we have to be so careful, we can't say this. It's like, you know, actually it's very simple. And if we just keep it simple, we don't worry about all the processes so much and we focus on having a conversation and saying sorry and realizing that people aren't coming to work to ruin your day and it's, you know, really quite basic.

Yeah. If you address the drama, then a lot of— if you get beyond ego, you won't really need it. I love HR. I don't want this, you know, people to think we're anti-HR, but to me there's a big split in HR. There's HR who are seeking kind of modern, evolved workplaces, and there's other HR. And I think HR has become the biggest workaround and enabler. So if there's something that people aren't doing to move beyond ego and ditch the drama, then it becomes an HR process. Yes. It's like, I didn't have a conversation with you for a year, so HR says we have to. So here's a form for performance management. For the leaders who are doing what they need to do, the performance management is inconvenient because it's It's simply a recap of all the discussions we've already had. And so it's interesting, I think, when we think about HR as the big workaround. If we had a computer system with that many workarounds, we would be up in arms. But right now we have a leadership system with so many workarounds, we need a whole department to work around what we didn't figure out or how to enable folks. Yeah. Yeah. You said that when you look at your own business, What I love about hearing you do that, and I've learned some from you, is you don't take it personal. And I think a lot of founders, when I give them any type of, you know, hey, let's look at this experience and, you know, I'm not going to sympathize with you, but I'm going to empathize with you and call you to greatness. A lot of times they have this shame or they take it personal. How'd you move beyond, like, things being personal?

Oh, I mean, I used to take things so personally, particularly staff feedback around whatever was happening in the business. Because I was mentioning before, I really looked at my business like it was my baby, and there's nothing more—

So many people do, and that justifies this weird behavior. They're like, well, Sai, this is my baby. And I'm like, well, I wouldn't even raise my children like that because they're running your life.

Exactly. And that's exactly how it was. And I would refer to it as my baby, and I'd refer it Well, I have 3 boys, and I would refer to it like it's twins. So there's the boys, but then there's these twins that's like, you know, even more— we need to give more attention to it. And, and so it was, you know, just controlling my life. And, you know, if someone, if someone criticizes one of your children, you take it personally. So I'm having staff, you know, not happy with things and ultimately making that really personal. And when I remember one day so clearly, I was sort of sitting at home looking out of a my home office, and I just saw— for some reason focused on my car that was parked outside the window. And I thought, you know what, this business is a vehicle. It's, it's taking me to where I want to go and, and showing me experiences. It is not my baby. Babies control when you sleep, when you eat, whether you can go out. That— this is where I've got it all wrong. And I was like, right, I'm never calling any of my businesses a baby again. I love that. They are not a baby. I'm in control. I drive the business.

It's a vehicle.

And it's a vehicle. And

a vehicle takes me where I want to go. A baby can be like draining you. So I mean, for me, I want my business to fund my retirement and to leave a legacy and to change the workplace. And babies aren't going to do that.

And also that then there's that you can continue the analogy of like, you know what, come and get in my vehicle, come along with the ride for me. But at any point, I'm more than happy to pull over and for you to get out. Absolutely.

There's a lot of exit ramps.

You know, yeah, there's no problem in doing that. But I just had this, um, and I understand why I had that mentality because I did build it from zero and nurtured it and, you know, all of those things. So I understand the analogy of calling it your baby, but it was probably the, the, it was probably the one mental, um, aspect I had around my business that held it back.

That's huge. Baby to vehicle. Yeah. And then instead of what do I have to give up to serve this baby, it's like, what can I— how can I drive so that this gets us to where we want to go?

And at one point when the business went through a really rocky time, and it was ultimately at the end of the day it was all people-related, I spent a lot of time looking at, okay, so the vehicle has been in an accident and there's parts of the vehicle that won't be replaced, and then there's other parts that, you know, can— you know, we can take it to the shop, we can get them fixed, and, you know, I'm not going to get as far on my trip this time as I planned. It's going to take a lot longer than I planned. I may have to go in a different direction. But ultimately, you know, I've been in a bingle. Maybe it wasn't all my fault, but I probably— if I, if I'd been more aware, I could have stopped it. I really looked at— used the whole vehicle when things went bad. And, and that took— not only did it not make it personal, but it also helped me not blame myself for everything.

That's the hard part, the entrepreneur's shame. You know, I like to give my listeners assignments, and you just Triggered one for me. A good assignment is for those of you that are founders, entrepreneurs out there, even just doing some side hustles, listen to the language you use to describe your business. Yes. And see, you know, like, Sal, you described yours as a baby, and I've described things as like my legacy. And because your description can tell you like your relationship, and see if that metaphor is a healthy one. Yes. And then see if there's some ways you can get mentally flexible And change your metaphor. So one of the assignments from this podcast for self-reflection, which gets us beyond ego, is listen to how you talk about the language you use to describe your business, and if there's a healthier metaphor, work to pick that up.

Yes, definitely. That— because that was really a big change for me. And I, and I look back now and I see how the business and who I was as a leader really started to develop in the direction that I wanted I love that. And then opened up whole new things like coming now to launch in New York and do that, really live my dreams.

And we're gonna talk about your dreams in just a minute. And I talk about leaders, like a big role for us for others is neutralizing and normalizing and, and getting rid of the drama. So when people come to me and say, I got 3 projects dumped on me, I want leaders' first move to just translate into no drama. Oh, so you have 3 new projects. And so if people are listening to metaphors they use, my business is my baby. Yeah. It could just be my business, and then we could back away and it could be a business I am leading currently. Yes. And the more you can neutralize that, because your language tells you what story you're operating out of, and if you're in story, you're not operating authentically or evolved, and you're making decisions based on your filter and your story and your fears. not based on just what reality is.

Well, one of my favorite things, changes in language that I've made recently that I heard from a friend, was changing from I have to to I get to. So it was like, a great example is like, I have to go to the gym this morning, as opposed to I get to go to the gym this morning. It just changed. And so now every time there's anything that I'm, you know, find, you know, that's like a bit of a struggle, I don't really want to do, if I move that have to to get to, suddenly I see Um, that I have opportunities. You know, it's an opportunity for me to go and be able to go, say, for the— for the— to the gym, for example, be healthy, you know, get good energy, rather than this whole like, oh, I have to do it, I don't want to do it. The mindset change—

Yeah, it moves you from victim to accountable. And if that move gets hard, where you find it hard to move from I have to to I get to, you might be putting your energy in a place that's spirit-depleting rather than spirit-building. Because it's like, clean up the language. And if you find you get stuck on cleaning up the language, look at whether you're involved in things that are energy building or energy depleting. So in your work with founders, entrepreneurs, what has been some of your best advice when you have those moments where you feel like your head opens up and the universe like just dumps something in that brain of yours and out it comes? Like, what have been some of the things you've really considered your best of your best to give to entrepreneurs? Yeah. It's your time for advice giving. Yes. Coaching.

Yes, I think generally what people seem to find interesting is that I've had people say, how do you do what you want to do? Like, why is it okay? I don't do guilt. Like, I just don't.

You're a gutsy girl. You're like, I want this. Yeah. And I'm gonna enlist my family and my husband. We're gonna figure out how to make this happen. I love it.

Yeah, just like, I think that life is too long, life is too short, you know. I think too many people are not actually happy and they feel that it's you know, it's sort of too late to make a change. And I see that generally, but I see, um, entrepreneurs and founders who fall out of love with their business all the time, and it becomes, you know, a struggle and really hard. And I hate that thought, and I've had those moments, because we did it because we had our why and we're passionate and we wanted to be different and create something. And so when I see founders that are, you know, clearly disconnected and, and hating it, um, that I find that, you know, we need to, we need to work through that because my view is that entrepreneurs are the ones that change, really change the world. And so we want them to be, you know, inspired and doing what they're great at. So— Do you

have a trick for working through that? Like, how do you sort that out?

Oh, so, so for me, I think I've always— I'm very clear on what I want at different times. I'm very aware that what I want will change at different times depending on my age, what's going on in my life, what experiences I've had. But at any one time, I know exactly what I want. And I think people really struggle to, one, work out what they want, but also to then acknowledge that they can have what they want.

That's the scary proposition.

Yeah.

Somebody, you know, said we don't fear failure, we fear really being the great success we are. I think it was Marianne Williamson. I can't remember, but— Yes. It was amazing. Yeah. That I know for myself, I can take on any challenge. I can, if it's put in front of me, I feel like I can get anything done. It doesn't often dawn on me to ask myself, is it what I want to create? Yes. It's like more, I take my lead from the external world if I'm not careful and give to others rather than just saying, what am I here to create? So you spend some time getting clear. Oh, I'm always getting clear.

I think that's—

a lot of founders don't spend They're solving problems, they don't spend time to get clear.

Yeah. So, a lot of the work that I do with founders is around that vision, mission, values. And I'm not talking about fancy words on a wall. I'm talking about what is, what, you know, where do you really want to take something and what does it really mean? And who do you really want to be or the people that you work with? And it's so often they just don't really, haven't really thought about that. Because a lot of people get into business because they think, well, I won't have a boss to answer to, I'll make lots of money and I'll have all this flexibility. That's not at all reality. Like, that is— if that's— they're the 3 things you want, I would potentially—

Not go into business. Yeah, I went from one boss to— I have 200 bosses, clients. I went from a lot of flexibility where I could just say I'm not working Saturday to less flexibility because it needs to get done. Yeah, I, I remember thinking to myself I would have more freedom to be with my kids. I would have— and I can create that, but that's not your traditional No,

I mean, not if you really want to make something happen. I mean, it's an enormous amount of commitment, sacrifice, and risk. And I think that if you have an aversion to risk, I wouldn't be recommending people to go into business.

But a lot of people are willing to take risks with their ideas, as I said, but not with people. You know, when I left my job, I was gonna go into consulting, and I had announced that I was leaving. I had a boss, and he was a very traditional boss, and he was, I think, he told me he was pretty ticked I was leaving because he felt I added a lot of value. And part of the reason I was leaving at the time is it was some discrimination in the workplace where, you know, there were a lot of people that were male-gendered that, you know, were being hired at different salaries than I had been hired in at. The market had changed. And so I decided it wasn't hatred to my workplace. I believe you stay in joy and give it all or leave in peace. So when I got to the point where I thought, you know, this is just where I need to leave. Anyway, I told him I was leaving very professionally, burning no bridges. And he said to me, he said, Sai, he goes, this is a mistake. He said, you in consulting, you'll make exactly what you're worth. You will. Your worth will be measured every quarter by your income. And I remember thinking, that's what I'm counting on. Yeah. Is that I will, I will make what I'm worth. Yes. And when I look at that first year I replaced My income and more. For me, it wasn't about the money. It was about wanting to do some really incredible creative things. Yes. But it was just interesting when people leave. Do you have a trick, like, if there are founders out there that maybe have lost their joy? Do you have some, like, here's a few ideas on what to do?

Oh, look, I think the first thing is to go back to that right at the beginning when you're really naive and you have this this dream of what you want to create, to go back to, like, even to write down or describe the memory of what that— What that was.

Or go find the journal. Like, I was— a couple of times when I've been moving, I have found, like, these things I wrote at the time I was beginning, and they were so grounding.

Yeah, yeah. So I— and, uh, I think that, like, we just forget about— we forget about that because along the way it's just every day, the, you know, the grind. And if you're Growing or you know you you're perhaps not at the financials meeting the financial goals you want to. It's hard work, and I think that if if you've gone into it thinking that it's going to be easy, then you know there's a problem in itself. But reconnecting with you know as we all know reconnecting with the why of what what was this actually all about at the end of the day? You know why was I doing this? And and then the biggest thing that I want founders to do is then to go and sit down with their team and tell them the story.

That's huge.

Talk to them about it.

I'm so glad you recommended this. It's huge.

It's massive to, and to tell that story over and over and over again. Every time we have a new employee, I sit down and I go through from like my business journey really started, or why the business or why I am the way I am, started well before I started the businesses. Like right back when I was a kid and to be able to, Tell your staff the story as to, you know, why we do that thing or why you decided and your journey. That is critical for engagement.

I think it's important because you're getting vulnerable, gets them vulnerable. I worked with a fabulous consultant a couple years back, Sharon Carlton in Omaha, and she had me go back to when I started the business and I found some story there that was meaningful and but it wasn't quite because the business had changed a lot and I I couldn't find that connection totally there. And she took me back and just said, you know, write about what did you love to do as a child? What were you great at? And I started to remember these stories about how I went to the Iowa State Fair when I was 10 years old, and I got a purple ribbon because I gave a speech on how to build a terrarium. And I had this demonstration thing, like I was the master at this speech. I worked on this thing for a year. And when I started talking about that, I saw the themes for me. I'm a teacher. I'm a helper. I've always thought in kind of counterintuitive ways. And so I had to go back even further. Yes. But then I came and I started— I wrote it down and I handed it out. It was so vulnerable to me while my staff was like reading this. And it was kind of a time where we're starting our business because what happens is I knew the brands, but everybody we added, if my brand was bright blue, it got light blue and then pale like blue and then almost white, as many degrees away from me as, um, I was— my brand lost its color. But with those stories, long story short, with those stories, it really— I don't know, brought it to life for me. And my staff related to me in a whole different way. It made it real to them again.

Yeah, I think that is the—

That's a great technique.

Yeah, it is. I mean, find out what it is and then tell this and tell them over and over again, you know, because even every— so when now, when I, um, in Australia, when we're bringing on team members all the time, All of the, all of the staff will be invited to that onboarding introduction with that new person. So not everyone comes every time, but often people will come and just re-listen to it because I'll say, you know, it's not scripted, so I say different things. This

is so cool though. I love what you're saying. I want to pull this out for listeners. So onboarding, we usually lock our new employee in a room with HR, fire safety, and a video camera where they watch, or videotape where they watch like What you should be knowing about the company, and instead have that be a time for the entire company to come together and rehear the story again. I think that's incredible, especially for those of us in small business.

Oh, I mean, it's a must for small business. And then I will then say to a team member, have I missed something, or was there something? And they'll say, oh, when I— you told me the story, you told me about this thing that happened. Reminds you. And I'll be like, oh, I forgot to say that. And so then they'll tell. So then the team are adding to the story or, and contributing to that onboarding, which is just great for a new employee to go, wow, okay, I'm hearing the story from the founder, but I'm also hearing parts of the story that touched employees, other employees, as they, as they joined. Wow. So it's a, it's a non-negotiable. I have to do that with the, with the Australian team when anyone, when anyone starts, so that they understand that this business has a heartbeat. It came from something. It's not just a workplace that you come to every day and, you know, do some work. There's, there's a whole lot of stuff behind it.

It also helps me as the founder to tell it because it's not just, um, you know, I'm not just worried about the financials or what new client we're bringing on. It's like it grounds me in my, in my own story. Part of your story is, first of all, I want to give you a compliment because one of the things I wanted to bring you on the podcast because one of the things I think happens to those of us in business is that the energy is high when we are living on a learning curve. When we are like, if you're like, somebody once said to me, and I think it's a quote I want to attribute to the right person. So listeners, you can tell me who said it, but if you're not standing on the edge, right, you're taking up too much space. Meaning— Yeah. As a founder, we can really get complacent or lazy. And so we've got to keep reinventing ourselves and be high on the learning curve and taking risks. Because that's what keeps kind of the business alive. And I love that about you because I know at times I get complacent and I think, well, gosh, I think the next chapter for me is X. I'm like, oh, well, I'm pretty successful. And then I see you going, I'm moving from Australia to New York. I've always wanted to live here. I'm like, dang, Sal, that's, that's big stuff. So you're teaching me. So thank you. But I know a big part of your story and part of my next chapter is that you don't just consult with founders and entrepreneurs that are already established and in first world countries that have, you know, some resources. You have a whole part of your business where you give to businesses throughout the world that are starting with really nothing.

Yes.

I want you to talk about that because my first major, I was International Relations and Third World Economic Development. I was heading to go in the Peace Corps and do like microlending. Wow. That was my dream. Life changed and And so I think that's a next chapter for me, but I'd love for you to talk about the entrepreneurs you work with that are completely coming from a different place.

Yeah, so part of— so all— I mean, I have a couple of other businesses that we're not focusing on today, but all of them have been involved in how do we actually do business for good. And as a small business, it's really— I mean, we had, you know, you have limited funds and you have limited time, so what is a way that you can be making an impact when you've got limited resources. And so I connected with an incredible business called B1G1, which is buy one, give one, which is the view of like when something good happens in your business, then you do something for someone else in need and you can do that at very minimal cost. Now, when— and so we've done— so in Australia last year, we did nearly half a million days of clean water for communities in Malawi and all these things That's amazing. So if someone paid our invoice early, we would then buy some more days of water or give some more days of water. But in— when coming to New York, I spent a lot of time thinking like, you know, wow, I'm sort of 42 and I've got 3 kids and established businesses in Australia, but I've got this dream that I just need to be in New York. So I might just do that and not think too much about the logistics and just come here and, you know, make it happen. And I thought, but But ultimately, what has enabled me to live this great life is entrepreneurship. And I think, you know, I don't need entrepreneurship to survive, but in developing countries, particularly women, they do need to be entrepreneurial to provide for their families and their communities. Mm-hmm. They need to be able to learn how to make something so they can sell it or whatever it may be. And I thought, you know, I want my journey in, New York to be every time I have a success here that I then help a woman in a developing country to get a business off the ground, whether that be a microloan or a day's bookkeeping training or a day business training so that they can then start something. And, you know, ultimately they're starting something to survive. I'm starting— I'm doing business because I love it and I get to do amazing things. But if these women can start something because I'm succeeding or I'm doing things, then imagine what they will create for their families and communities. And I do that through B1G1, and it's as simple as, you know, if I get a quality lead, I can give a business day's business training, which costs very, very little, or I can, you know, do a complete microloan or a loan based on, you know, Maybe some other bigger wins that I'm having here.

I absolutely love this concept because, you know, thank goodness a lot of larger corporations, every size, are talking about conscious capitalism and how to be a good global citizen. And I think many of us look at those like those are big programs that, you know, we have to fund. A program of consciousness— so if we want to move through business consciously, I believe in abundance— a program of consciousness where we are very quick to help others and tithe in some regards. So take something great and share it. I think it's just, it's important for the work that helps others, but it's important for our psyche too. Mm-hmm. Because this going beyond ego, and a big part of going beyond ego is this constant state of gratitude. And not just gratitude like, oh, I'm so happy I had warm food. food today. But gratitude, which is so I will gift that to somebody else, I think it keeps things in perspective.

Oh, it does. It absolutely does. Because I really looked at this and went, you know, what I'm doing is amazing and great, but ultimately, like, it's, it's a privilege. It is. You know, it's a complete privilege. I'm not here just so that I can survive. You know, I can, I could get a job, all of those things. And I think, but also, I think we also need to look at what we can do, you know, in just our closest workspace.

Yeah, let's get into this.

But even, you know, it was interesting, it made me think about, we, at one point, we changed our payroll to going from fortnightly to monthly. And so we did a whole training course with our team on budgeting and personal finance. And there's actually quite a lot of young people in our team.

Yeah, it's the total empowerment.

Yeah.

And also— Help them lift everyone else.

Yeah, and they were like, I can't believe I'm coming to work and getting all this training on— basically, you know, it makes no difference to me if I don't— if they don't pay their electricity bill, you know. But we're saying, well, you know, we can help you have a better life or a better experience through life and train you and give that— give that support to you. So even doing little things in your own business, if you're not ready or can't do bigger things, or what you consider to be bigger things in You know, helping the world. It's just little things all the time.

It absolutely is. And I think, you know, we're going to talk a lot about evolution and helping people bring their most evolved self to work. And anytime you can give somebody a skill set that you, you know, have picked up or learned along the way, like financial acumen, or— I remember the day when we became completely debt-free and the freedom in that and the gratitude to the people in my life that helped me get there and showed me how. Yes. Is so important. And I think an important thing to manage our ego is we can't just always be writing our stories down and editing them. The ego will have you believing that you're the only one struggling today, that this is so hard, that you're the most amazing person, you know, and that, you know, we have to build up a brick wall so that you can feel good about smashing it down. And I think if you become a global citizen and you just realize that your plight in the world compared to everybody else's That perspective is an ultimate ego bypass for me. So when I think about the people we're supporting and what they can do with $5 that I just spend on a latte, it's like, it's such important stuff.

It is. It's so grounding and puts your, your daily struggles into perspective, which you end up having just a more enjoyable day.

Absolutely.

By not stressing about the fact that, you know, it's raining or, you know, whatever the the thing that's annoying you today. And so connecting to that, I think that also comes back to that when founders are struggling to be connected to their business and it's like, you know, you lose sight of the big picture.

When it comes down to getting another client and making money, nobody gets out of bed for more money. Money just, I think, measures kind of the alignment in your business. It measures some of your success. So many founders I talk to, myself included, those first kind of 3 or 4 years, It was just, you know, how do I, you know, stay in the game here with cash flow and things like that? That we get so accustomed to that behavior of, you know, let's look at do we have enough money instead of let's look at do we have enough energy and enough things going on for our soul. Am I getting fed enough out of this business? Not just do I get the dividend I need to pay my house payment.

Yes.

But am I getting fed out of this business. I think every year people have to go through like, am I gonna go another year in this business? And is it feeding me not just financially, but is it still, you know, feeding me mentally, intellectually, feeding soul-wise?

Yeah.

Which, if you have a job, you have to answer that too. Yeah.

And I look, I went through that in Australia when the business was getting up to 10 years, and I just felt that to do the things, to to do more with it, I didn't really want to do anymore. And I felt like I just couldn't give it what it needed because my interests were starting to be—

to go other places,

to be diverted. And that would actually happen because the business had given me so many opportunities to travel and meet people and go to conferences and listen to people that I started to see a much bigger world than I had. And then went, you know what, it's actually time for me to And so then I went into some tech businesses, which I'm completely out of my comfort zone. That's really interesting. And then, but ultimately I kept wanting to be here in New York. And so I just really listened to that and went, oh, but I had this business plan. And if I don't do that, then am I quitting? Am I giving up? Or am I saying that I've— All ego attachments.

All ego. Your ego's like, stay safe and And what would other people think? Yeah,

and it's like I said I'd do this and now I'm not, so what does that mean? And then one day I just realized it's like I've just changed my mind, you know, like I just want to do something different. Who cares? Like, just do it. And so then I just did it. I love it.

I love it. Incredible conversations. And again, I think that so many people, whether you're inside the business, the more that you can become entrepreneurial Yes. And a founder even in your own business department. There's so many lessons for people inside of a larger business, but also for people running their side hustles or fantasizing about—

Yeah.

Getting out of business. Last pieces of advice that you would give, some free consulting to those entrepreneurs out there?

So I think that probably the hardest thing that I learned with growing a business was that I didn't recognize that the great people that I had in my business were great today, but they weren't— didn't necessarily mean that they were going to be great for the business in 2 years' time, because the business grows and it needs different things. And I had an attachment to people, especially the ones that were with me at the beginning. And when the business started to outgrow them and we needed different skills, they could no longer deliver those. But I was like, but, you know, they've given me so much to get here, so I can't— you know, they can't move on. But ultimately, they were struggling The business wasn't getting what it needed, and so now I really look at bringing people on and say, "You're exactly what we need right now," and I can give you exactly what you need right now. But we're going to grow and change, and this might not be a forever relationship, and that's totally okay.

Absolutely.

So yeah, that that really I learned it the hard way.

Yeah.

And then I've I've felt much more relaxed about someone's journey within my business, which. Which has helped with taking the personal part of it.

Because it helps keep you flexible and nimble instead of, I don't want to take on more responsibility. As a business, promising, like, if you want a forever job, I don't think they exist, but you might want to look at somebody else to do them. It's so important, like, in our business, the way we've gotten around that is we, in our strategic plan, keep a small footprint. And what that means is that our core team stays small. And we do a lot of work with partners and vendors to bring us in what we need right now this year so that we can flex in and out through contracting. But I have another founder I advise, and he is just doing one year. You sign up to deliver this value. It's kind of like Shark Tank. It's like you pitch your idea, you deliver this value, and then we revisit every kind of year whether that's still something we need going forward. Yeah. And he pays a bit of a premium for that. Yeah. And we probably pay a premium for our vendors. But for us, as I've added staff, I've added their expectations that drag down our flexibility. And I think flexibility is like the superpower right now. Yeah. And so anything I bring on, if somebody's gonna pile their expectations or attach to me and my business, one of the best lessons I've learned as a founder is I'm not gonna take on your expectations. If, if this serves you, then be all in, fully accountable. None of this victim martyr stuff. I give you so much. Yep, we expect that. And then, you know, let's revisit from time to time. Is this still what you need and, and what I need? And so I think that's Small Footprint for us.

I like that.

We stumbled into it, but I think it was kind of— we learned on the road, we learned the way. But our staff, as we were doing strategic plan, they're like, yeah, we don't really want to grow Yeah. That doesn't mean that they don't say, Sy, we need some people to do some of this work because we're so small. Yeah. But staff right now, I'm like, should we grow our team? They all get really scared. They're like, no, our team is awesome. Let's keep a small footprint and let's just have people join us on the temporary. So

that's the beauty of being in business today. I think this is the best time to be in business because there's so much— there's so many different ways of doing things. And as you were talking about before, when you went back to what were the things that you loved doing when you were 7, I know that there were things that, like, so say we wanted to do something like this, you know, we couldn't. You couldn't even do it. You couldn't do it. And so now, and I look, I thought I was the lead of the drama play and I wanted to get stuff out there. And, and what, how do you do it? You get a— to try and get a job doing that was just impossible. Now we can do anything we want and it doesn't cost anything. It's just an incredible time to, to be in business. We're very lucky.

We're so lucky. I think I'm going to leave listeners with an insight I got from talking to you today, is I think all of us— all of this is about feel free to constantly recreate yourself given what brings you energy and how the world's exploding, and figure out, you know, manage your own energy and recreate yourself often. But make sure when you recreate yourself, you're recreating yourself based on intention, that you're being intentional and internal. A lot of us recreate ourselves on, oh, we could make a lot of money, or oh, there's a business opportunity there, but it doesn't call our passion. So I think the call to action here is, is founders, entrepreneurs, be part of writing the next chapter in your story often. Always be creating and recreating yourself, but make sure you do that from a place of intentionality, not a place of other people's expectations or loyalty where loyalty is not due to employees. Or— and, and to do that, you're gonna have to unplug and take some time and, and really figure out what brings you joy today, not what brought you joy in the past. But I find there's a red thread that goes through all of it. So people are gonna want to get in contact with you, and you do a ton of cool social media stuff. So fill people in on what they need to add to all of their Follows and playlists.

Yep. So on my personal Insta at Sel underscore Watts, and that's I'll

say that in American accent

too.

Sue underscore

Sel.

Sel, I'm sorry. Sel.

I need to spell that too because S E L S

E L. So underscore Watts underscore Watts W A T T S.

Yep. Sel Watts on Facebook. Sueellen Watts dot com for my website, and then the new business in New York, What's Next P X. is, is really targeted to founders, entrepreneurs, small to medium business owners that are fast growth and really wanting to smash it. So—

I love it.

Yes, thank you.

Very much. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. And I know that we will— there'll be more to come from Sella and I, so stay tuned.

Yeah, thank you, Sai.

You're welcome. This is the No Ego Podcast. Where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sai Wakeman.