S2E14: Steve Glaveski, Founder & CEO of Collective Campus, Author, Podcast Host

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. As promised, I am bringing you people that I meet that have had a great influence on me, people I meet around the world. Some I've known for a short time, some for Some I've never met, and this guest is one of those I've never met, but I feel like we know each other well because we connect online, and I've been a guest on his podcast. I am bringing to you Steve Glavesky, and I'm bringing you him now at this moment because we both are so excited that he's launching a brand new book about moving from an employee to entrepreneur. And we're going to have a lot to talk about because both he and I have done that. But most importantly, he is the CEO and co-founder of Collective Campus and operates on the other side of the world for a big share of his career in Australia, Singapore, and that whole Asia-Pacific world over there. So welcome, Steve.

Thank you for having me, Sai. It's an absolute pleasure.

I'm excited. You and I have a lot of common beliefs. I think we figured out as we Connected online. And I'm so excited to talk to you about this incredible journey that many fantasize about. Some jump into and don't do so well. And some of us survive the school of hard knocks and succeed as moving from employment to entrepreneurship. But I'm hoping this interview will really help some folks avoid maybe what you and I found out the hard way. So, let's jump into where this all started, which you had a wonderful, successful career in the corporate world. I did too. Most people thought I was crazy when I left that comfortable position. But what was— where were you in the corporate world and what was that like for you before you decided to jump out?

Sure, sure. So, I mean, growing up, I was always really creative. I mean, I spent many years in my teens playing in a glam rock band size. So, Yes, that meant zebra print pants and makeup and all sorts of fun stuff. So those photos, well, you can find one of those photos online, but I'm not going to point you in the right direction.

Dang it, because we would definitely go do that to you.

But, you know, as is the reality of life, I mean, over time, I transitioned from playing in a glam rock band to going to university. The hair got shorter and shorter, and I found myself In firms such as Ernst& Young, KPMG, and one of Australia's largest investment banks, which was Macquarie Bank. And, you know, for a good first few years there, the learning curve was relatively steep. It was enjoyable. I was in my 20s at the time, so I quite enjoyed the work hard, play hard lifestyle. But ultimately what I did find after a while was that I just started to feel like I was playing a role. So, which was very much Quite different, diametrically opposed to the creativity of my younger years. And while I had, as you would've enjoyed in the corporate world, Sai, the 6-figure salary, the business class flights around the world, the corporate junkets, all of society's supposed trappings of success, deep down inside, I was feeling unfulfilled. I would get to the end of my day and wonder, what the hell did I actually achieve today? And I was, as I like to say, feeling miserably comfortable. And from there, I started asking questions about where to from here because I can't keep doing this day after day after day. It's like Steve Jobs used to say, if I wake up more than 3 days in a row, look in the mirror and say, I don't want to do what I'm doing today, I need to reflect on that and make some changes. And in my case, it was very much about identifying opportunities that I firsthand, that I experienced firsthand in the corporate world, which was a lot of vacant office space. So like every man, woman, and their dog, I decided I'd set up An Airbnb for office space. And this was about 7 years ago. But rather than just quit my job and go hell-bent for leather, it was a case of, okay, well, let's see if I can just test this idea. And I did so with a prototype I developed using an Airbnb script, a freelancer I found on Upwork.com. And with little more than $2,000, I managed to build this prototype that did everything you needed to do, like the basics. You could list space, you could book space, you could search, all that sort of jazz. And then I figured, well, I've got this prototype, I need to get into the hands of some people. And what I did was, as you do if you're an entrepreneur, you try and be proactive. I Googled how to write a press release. And so I gave it a crack and sent out about 100 email addresses to journalists whose email addresses I found on their Twitter profiles. And of those 100, I mean, how many do you think actually got back to me, Sai?

I'm going to venture zero.

Plus one. So plus one. One got back to me, but it just happened to be one of the biggest newspapers in Australia with a circulation of— yeah, with a circulation of almost half a million people. So that article dropped a few weeks after they interviewed me, and my manager at the time saw the article, said, hey, what's this all about? You are going to leave us? And I said, no, no, no. a banker till I die, as you do. And then within about 3 months of that article dropping, some early-stage investors got in touch with me. They liked what I was doing. They liked what I was about. And they invested in the business. And it was enough for me to basically leave the corporate world and spend a couple of years exploring this thing they call entrepreneurship. And, you know, 7 years later, and I haven't looked back.

I love it. I love it. Now, are you still running that company?

No, no, not at all. So that company I ran for about 2 years. And as is the case with most entrepreneurs' first endeavors, maybe not all, but most, it was what I would call a learning experience. You could call it a failure if you like. The supply side was so easy to build, right? Like the thing about a lot of entrepreneurs that I speak to today who are building marketplaces, I mean, I always say, hey, if you're going to build a marketplace, That's two-sided. It's going to be 10 times harder than a single-sided marketplace. So with Hotdesk, I had no issues getting up to about 12,000 listings on the platform across Asia Pacific, but demand just did not align with that. And since then, there's been a lot of companies that have come and gone that have tried to crack this code and have failed even with 10 times, if not 20 times more funding than I had. But the biggest learning that I got during those 2 years wasn't just all of the entrepreneurial stuff I was able to geek out on, all the methods and tools and techniques, but it was more so that I needed to have purpose at the core of what I did. Because entrepreneurship's hard. If you want to play the long game, you really need to believe in what you're doing in order to get up every morning and give it all you've got. And at the end of the day, I didn't really want to be what you might call a glorified real estate agent. And so I wasn't willing to give it all it really would've taken to make it a success.

I think that is an important kind of first thing to pull out, Stephen, that a lot of people fantasize about leaving their corporate job for the wrong reasons. Um, an easier life or to be, you know, to make more money. Or I hear people say, oh, you know, I wouldn't— I'd be my own boss. And I'm like, oh my goodness, no. As an entrepreneur, I traded one boss for you know, 250 bosses.

Yeah.

Um, but, you know, I think that people don't necessarily understand that, um, you really are going to be living full-time with what you choose. And so you've really got to find something that is your passion and is sellable in the marketplace, because I also meet people who have this awesome passion, but I'm like, you know what, that just is not, um, potentially something that you're going to get a business plan written around. And so, so you, you talk about trigger moments, but your— was your Trigger moment was I accidentally was playing around or intentionally playing around with a side hustle that struck it big, or was your trigger moment really that you just started to really notice, as Steve Jobs says, this is pretty empty?

Yeah. I can actually vividly recall the moment when I started my gig at this large investment bank back in 2012. And the day I walked in there, because I'd come out of the management consulting world with Ernst& Young and KPMG, where the culture was a little bit more— well, the floor plan was a little bit more open plan, it was a little bit more human. And then I got into this banking environment where it just felt like something out of George Orwell's 1984. It was just rows and rows and rows of desks, 1 meter by half a meter or something to that effect. And to me, it just felt really inhuman. And when I looked around at the people that I was working with, it seemed as if everybody was just driven by extrinsic incentives. So money, nothing else. And it was all about doing as little work as possible, taking as little ownership as possible, sitting in as many meetings as possible to get through the day and just clock on, clock off and live for the weekend. And those kinds of values just don't really align with what I'm about. Like I'm wanting to actually achieve something and create some value for the world and get up in the morning with a spring in my step that's derived from something other than just the pay packet at the end of the day. So I guess in order to get to that learning though, you needed to go on the journey. And that's not to say that there were no learnings from my time in the corporate world. There were plenty that are transferable, particularly now as I do a lot of, a lot of my clients are big corporates. And because I have spent time in that world, I know how to speak their language. I know what their incentives are, their KPIs and everything else. So I can basically sell to them much better than someone who perhaps has never spent some time in that world. But at the end of the day, like, if you don't align in terms of your values and the values of the organization, the people you're working with, and it's the same with a relationship, it's the same with your team, things are going to be very, very difficult. And it's kind of like playing a game of tug of war if those values aren't aligned.

I think that's so true. And, you know, my experience in healthcare systems and having to, you know, do budgeting and, you know, that is transferable to my business. But I also just know the power of that alignment that so many folks either feel trapped, they're unwilling, they think they can't, but it's just like avoiding this. But it's like I always tell people, leave in peace or stay in joy, but the worst place to be is to stay in hate.

Yeah.

And stay in regret. And so if you're going to go, it's like figure out that going. And I remember for me, My trigger point was I'd finally made it to the senior leadership team. And I looked around the table and nobody really had any tan. They all wore kind of the same suit. And I just kind of realized that what I thought was there, that what it was going to be like was just so different. And for me, I had the opportunity as a new mom to say, you know what? I think I'll just kind of go down to part-time and be home with my kids. But, I do remember my trigger moment. So, fast forward. So, I bet it was a whirlwind the first couple of years with a great idea that had some money backing and you saw that kind of thing unwind. What was next for you? What did you settle in from now that you're an entrepreneur? How'd you move on and pivot to something more aligned with your passion?

Yeah. And, I guess it comes back to you know, serendipity and just going on the journey and the path presenting itself as you go on that journey, which is something that a lot of people thinking about making the leap need to appreciate. You probably won't have the best idea in the world from day one. You probably won't be able to execute it, execute on it all that well from day one. But by going on that journey, the answers, the learnings do present themselves and the opportunities do. So a couple of years into Hotdesk, as I was thinking about winding it down, as I came to the realization that I just don't really believe in this. I've got no passion for it. It doesn't really align with my purpose. I was working out of a coworking space in Melbourne, and that's where I met my current co-founder at Collective Campus. He was running that space. And for those of you listening who know General Assembly, they're a big training provider. They run bootcamps on marketing and all sorts of stuff. They basically occupied a couple of classrooms at his space, and they told him that they were leaving. So suddenly his biggest tenant was gone. He was going to struggle to pay the rent. And I basically approached him and said, hey, What I'm thinking of doing is similar to them, but I want to apply it into the corporate world because for many years I was this frustrated entrepreneur. I wanted to challenge the status quo, but I was only incentivized to do what's in my core position description. And there was no support for anything outside of that. But now that organizations are seeing that disruption is happening, technology is quickly displacing entrenched incumbent business models. what I want to do is start teaching corporates some of these things that I've picked up over the last couple of years in the startup world, such as experimentation and human-centered design and Lean Startup and things to that effect. And he said, sure, let's give it a go. And as I advocate these days, it was more of a matter of just running a few experiments. And so, the first experiment, I remember it vividly. It was basically just an event on Eventbrite that was called Lean Startup for Large Organizations. And we threw about $100 of ads on it. We got about 50 RSVPs. It was a free 1-hour session. So that night, 6:00 PM on a Wednesday, we set up the room theater style, 50 chairs perfectly aligned. We had the plastic cups, the drinks, the food, the music. Of course, being from Australia, we probably had AC/DC on, just not too loud. And as I like to say, entrepreneurship is very much about resilience. And that night, even though we had 50 RSVPs, we had about 3 people. Wow. turn up. And we just needed to reflect on that and say, well, what could we have done better? And perhaps sending out a reminder email before the event, perhaps changing the ad copy so it appeals to large corporates a little bit more, such as experimentation for large organizations rather than Lean Startup. And we just kept running a few tweaks. We gave ourselves a few weeks and, you know, 3 turned into 5, turned into 7, turned into 9. And then eventually, We managed to hook our first reasonably big client and we haven't looked back since.

I love it. I love it. And one of the lessons I wanna pull out of there is that a lot of people wanna sit and think about the idea and perfect the idea before they ever take action. And I meet a lot of entrepreneurs who like the ideation phase and, you know, to research and think and research and think. And it's much more iterative than that, I have found. It's like lead with something, And debrief on it, learn from it, evolve it, lead with it, evolve it. If it becomes clear to kill it, kill it. It's not personal, but it's just really do something, make a move, and really just see what data you can collect in the moving rather than the kind of extreme ideation. And so, I like the lesson that you're calling is really just experimentation.

Definitely. And I mean, one of my favorite novels of all time is Paulo Coelho's The Alchemist.

I love that book.

It's fantastic and it's such a quick read too. I'm currently reading Atlas Shrugged from Ayn Rand and that is like 1,200 pages. So that's actually—

I've started that book 100 times because I want to be the girl who read that book because it's just so cool to have been one who read that book, but I haven't made it through yet. So

look, it is definitely worth it even though it's taken me about 1 month to get through it. And the worst thing about it is I can't read anything else during that month. So I'm almost there. But with Paulo Coelho's The Alchemist, so it tells the story of a young shepherd who who goes on this massive journey in search of treasure through the desert, past the pyramids in Egypt, and he ultimately finds that the treasure was at his feet the whole time. But in order to realize that, he needed to go on the journey. And entrepreneurship is very much like that. The answers might be around you in some way, shape, or form, but in order to uncover them, you really need to go on that journey. And so one thing that a lot of corporates making the move into entrepreneurship struggle from is paralysis analysis, because that's effectively what they've been taught in the corporate world unintentionally. It is do your research, make sure it's perfect before you get out of the building. We've got a big brand to protect. We've got a reputation. We're already making a hell of a lot of money. So it's okay if you take your time, you're going to get paid anyway. But entrepreneurship isn't like that. You haven't got a brand. You're not making any money when you start out. You haven't got the liberty of taking months and months to get out the door and, you know, just digest and devour all of these market research reports from Gartner and IBISWorld and stuff like that. You just need to get moving. And by moving, you're going to learn what you need to learn. And, you know, Jeff Bezos is a massive proponent of that over at Amazon when he talks about type 1 irreversible decisions and type 2 reversible decisions. And if it's a reversible decision that you can make A mistake on, but you can quickly reverse that decision.

Reverse. Yeah, go for it. He's like, you know, if it's reversible, move quickly and you need less data, like just to, you know, manage the risk of it while you go, you know? So that's kind of one thing that is very different when you go from employee to entrepreneur. And I think people really think if they're a skilled employee that fantasizes about being out on their own, Perhaps they underestimate what competencies or skill sets you need to be an entrepreneur because I found, and I think you found, that what made me great in the corporate world sometimes really hindered me in this new frontier of entrepreneurialism.

Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, if you look at some of the behaviors or attributes that underpin someone in the corporate world, we tend to Outsource accountability or always look for consensus. And so you'll have these things called steering committee meetings where you might have 5, 10, 15 people around the table trying to get consensus. And oftentimes I just look at those things and I feel like they're just a disguise for people refusing to take ownership and wanting to avoid blame. So we're always looking for consensus. And the thing is, when you have 15 people perhaps having to agree on a decision, Things move very, very slowly. So that's one thing that really doesn't translate in the startup world or in the entrepreneurial world. And there's also a tendency to get things perfect before showing it to a customer. We're always thinking about compliance. And now that we work with a lot of large organizations, they love things like non-disclosure agreements and they always ask questions about intellectual property. But One thing that trumps a patent is speed. Speed over your competitor, speed of learning, that trumps any patent. I mean, if you're wasting your— spending your time and money on patents and trademarks and all that sort of stuff when you haven't even got a product worth selling, you're just wasting your time and money.

People really overestimate the risk of that. Like, I have to protect what I have. I'm like, look, we live in an online world. I'm worried less about That, you know, for me, I think what I deliver adds a lot of value, that the value is in me being there quickly in an incredibly easy way, bringing the stuff out rather than, I guess, just playing defense rather than playing offense and, you know, moving beyond that legalistic to let's just find what works. Let's deliver it. Let's worry about some of that later.

Yeah, definitely. And I love what you said there. It's very much about playing defense in the corporate world. And it makes sense too, because if you're in the corporate

world— They have whole brands at stake.

Exactly.

You have like your last 30 days on the couch in your office at stake.

Exactly right. And you know, you're a listed company, you've got shareholders, you're already making money, you've got this repeatable, scalable business model. Why would you risk that by playing offense? Let's just keep this ship afloat. But you haven't got that liberty in the entrepreneurial world. And going back to Atlas Shrugged, I'm not sure how far you got into that book, Sai, but there is a section in that book where this train tunnel called the Taggart Tunnel apparently was this just masterpiece of human ingenuity. But it's not supposed to accept— well, coal-powered trains aren't supposed to go through the tunnel because it can't deal with with the smoke and everything else. And there was this part in the book where one of the engineers basically said, well, we've been told that we need to put this train through the tunnel. And they weren't able to take ownership and say, no, we can't do this. I'm going to defer this to the next person. And the next person deferred it to the next person and they kept deferring it. Nobody wanted to say, do it, because this directive came from up top. Now, even though everybody down the chain knew that this was the wrong thing to do, they pushed forward anyways because they didn't want to take the blame for not doing it because the directive came from up top. Long story short, train went through the tunnel, it got halfway through, all the passengers suffocated, and the tunnel actually collapsed as well because people weren't willing to take ownership. They were looking to play defense. They're looking to just protect their own skin rather than push back. And as an entrepreneur, you're going to have to push back so, so much on a lot of things that you can't just sit there defensively and try and avoid blame at all costs.

I think that's so important because a lot of times, the people who are venting and angry about their current position want to leave and start their own. And what they don't realize is that lack of accountability will really do them in when it comes to the entrepreneurial world. And I often tell people, until you can leave your current position in peace where you're not blaming them or thinking that your lack of success or unhappiness was something about them, don't— you're not ready yet. Because they're really, at the end of the day— bad saying, but the buck stops there. I remember when I told one of my leaders that I had made the decision to leave and I was going to do some of my own consulting. And this is the same lawyer who eventually hired me back as a consultant. He really valued my work and he was being a bit paternalistic. He's like, Sy, have you really thought this through? Leaving, you've vested, you've got a good paycheck. If you just hang out, you're going to be CEO someday. He said, you really want to do this? I said, I do. I'm really called to do this. He said, well, my biggest concern is, um, Sy, you're gonna make exactly what you're worth. Like, I mean, there's no one padding your paychecks. Like, if you deliver it, you will get paid for it. But if you don't deliver, you won't get paid. And

I

remember when he said that, it was like a test of if I was gonna do it in my own mind, because he said, you know, Sy, you're gonna end up getting paid exactly what you're worth. And I looked him right in the eye. I go, I'm counting on that.

That's awesome.

And, um, but I think people, you know, are frustrated in their current salary and want to be making more, but not really looking at the value they're adding. And that math doesn't work anymore in your favor when you start your own, um, business. What else? Are there some other big things that don't translate? Um, kind of what got you here won't get you there, so to speak.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the big things is also within the corporate world, you're basically thriving or operating under conditions of certainty for most of it in the sense that you know who your customers are, what the business model is, what you're selling, how much you're selling it for, what the marketing plan is, and you're basically just executing on that and you know what the next, say, 6 to 12 months are going to look like. Whereas As an entrepreneur, you basically need to learn to thrive on uncertainty, on ambiguity, on not having all of the answers before you. And because you don't have all of the answers before you, ultimately you need to get better at rapid experimentation in order to learn those answers fast and to learn those answers before you run out of money, which comes back to a lot of the stuff we've been talking about, about not having the liberty of time and just having to move really fast and not having the liberty of deliberating on what the idea is and everything else, because chances are the idea isn't very good. And I often hear entrepreneurs say, oh, I don't want to share my idea with anyone because they might steal it. And look, if they're passionate enough about your idea to steal it and run with it and try and push that big boulder uphill for the next 3 years to make your idea a success, good luck to them. The reality is by sharing your idea, not only with other people, but sharing it online, sharing it with your market, you're going to get the feedback you need to evolve that idea to something worth anything. And that comes back to experimentation, which is the only way to circumvent paralysis analysis and our fear of ambiguity, which is neurological. I mean, we evolved from running around the African savanna naked, hitting each other on the head with clubs and Our brains evolved from our amygdala and the reptilian part of our brain, which is all about fight or flight. And if we're operating in an environment whereby there's a lot of uncertainty, any move could be the wrong one, it makes sense that we're going to feel paralyzed. But you can just get out of that by not taking a huge bet and not taking out a $50,000 loan like a lot of entrepreneurs do, but just run a small experiment. And the more small experiments you run, The more likely you are to figure out what's actually worth spending your time on.

I think that's just so important. A lot of people want to keep their ideas to themselves. They think it's the idea that will somehow win the lottery or meeting the one person or having the one big breakthrough. And so, they cycle through people very quickly looking for the one. And just for people thinking about it out there, if you're going to make the move, if your idea is so dependent upon somebody, the wrong person not finding out or the one person and you finding it's so high risk, it's so improbable. You know, buy a lottery ticket. But instead, do what Steve is saying. Take something and crowdsource it and freely share it and move out of scarcity into a mindset of abundance. Mm-hmm. Get the feedback that you need. Have the soul-crushing news that you and 20 other people are working on the same idea, that you're not that special, but find out what could make it work. And it gets you out of that fear and that ego about my idea. is special, or I'm the one, or I'm smarter than other people, or, you know, I somehow— that's all ego stuff. Beyond ego is, you know, hey, I'm confident that I have some value to add to the world, and I'm sure if I partner with enough cool people, then, well, I'll be able to get to do that. And, um, I think working on your ego is so important as an entrepreneur. Oh yeah. Um, because everything you're mentioning to me, whether it's fear-based or, you know, I'm not going to share, all that scarcity stuff is really if you're operating out of ego rather than beyond ego. So what were some of the common other pitfalls or lessons of transition as people made the transition? Because I would love for all my listeners who have this fantasy in their head about being an entrepreneur— and by the way, I would love for you to do that because everybody needs to bring their passion to the world— but I don't want you to bring it because you're venting or because if you're leaving as a form of a vent, you know, I'm venting out loud. That's not the reason to do it. But I just want you to make an informed decision. And that's why I wanted to bring Steve's book to everybody's attention. But what are other common either pitfalls or lessons of the decision?

Definitely. And just real quick on alternatives to entrepreneurship. I mean, if somebody wants to vent, there are Easier ways to do so. I mean, you could just go and work for another organization, you know, make a lateral move internally. Maybe you just need to take up a hobby on the side. Maybe you're just feeling a bit unfulfilled because you haven't got some creative outlet. You know, I started drawing recently.

Figure out what the lesson is because your circumstances aren't, you know, always about your happiness. But yeah, I love that, Steve. There are easier ways than mortgaging your home too.

There's so many alternatives and I go through them in the book. But in terms of some of the common pitfalls, aside from the ones we've discussed, A lot of entrepreneurs, and this perhaps comes from the corporate world, they tend to conflate movement with productivity and effectiveness and just doing stuff. But as an entrepreneur, productivity is very much about what you don't do. So, not spending your day checking email, trying to get to inbox zero, which just means you're really good at responding to other people's demands on your time, not over-investing in rudimentary things like, let's get million business cards done. Let's make sure our flyers are all good and our little notepads and our website. Like, yeah, all that stuff may serve a purpose to some degree, but really you need to be focusing in on the value proposition when you start of your business. I often see entrepreneurs make the mistake of thinking that it's all about raising funding when they start out. So they just go on this warpath trying to raise funding from anybody who will give them some money. And sometimes they're successful in doing that. But what happens when you raise funding very, very, very early on is chances are you're going to raise it from people who are unsophisticated. Investors won't really be able to help you. Haven't got the networks to bring. Two, you're going to raise at a very low valuation because you're not—you haven't got a business yet. Haven't really got a value proposition, which means you're going to give away a big chunk of your business for a small amount of money. What you should focus on is really finding that value proposition that's going to start generating revenue. Then a year or two down the track, if you really need that funding to help you scale, then you'll be in a much better position because. You've got a business that's making money, better investors will want to talk to you. You can raise at a higher valuation and give away less of your business. So definitely the funding thing. And the third thing I see quite often is particularly for online businesses, entrepreneurs that are building some form of software platform, rather than just test appetite for that platform with something as simple as some ads and a landing page, what they do is they'll go and engage a software development agency And they'll pay them between $50,000 and $100,000 to build out this whiz-bang product with all the bells and whistles. And then they take it to market and it just completely tanks. And that is the definition of a bad failure because at that point, they've probably run out of financial, emotional, mental sort of

fortitude.

Interesting. And they just go back to the corporate world because it was such a big failure. So rather than build something based on what you think, Build something based on what you learned from your initial experiments, to tie it into what we were talking about earlier.

I love it. Iterative, experimental, be very focused on not what you know, but I call it the beginner's mind, getting into, I don't know. You touched on something that I learned. I'm so grateful I learned it and survived the lesson because some don't. And I continue. It's not just when I started out, I continue 20 years later to have use it. And that is this ability to curate, be a good curator of your time, your focus, and eye towards value. Um, and don't lie to yourself about the value because not everything is intangible benefits. Um, and in my business in training and speaking, when people are first starting out, they want the business, so they'll speak on anything. They, they're like, sure, I can do a talk on communication or And, um, that willingness to be everything to everybody ensures that you're just never going to, um, gain traction. You might have some inexpensive work for a while, but you really have to kind of form your own niche. And so I had to curate very quickly and we still, um, you know, at least once a year, um, but hopefully more often than that, get together and curate. Mm-hmm. and not just plan for what we could do next, but really curate what we're doing. And I have my team go through and it's like, let's look at all of our data points, including financial, about what's working, what's not working. Let's slice this stuff. Let's look at this product that we don't— fall in love with your own product. Like, just look at it. And did it do what we thought it would do? Is it performing? And, you know, and we just had that this morning where we went through all kinds of things and everybody is such a high accountable in my group. They were putting parts of their own job up and saying, this really is not worthy work anymore. This product, we need to just really cut it out and only implement it internal to companies. We need to change our whole pricing model. We're not selling deep enough. It was just this self-reflection and curating. And I find for myself that there's so many cool things we could do, not just startup, but now that I'm a founder and we're successful, Mm-hmm. there's

so many things

we could do. And if I don't curate, we will squander our resources very quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's part of the discipline you need as an entrepreneur is there are potentially lots of cool things and opportunities that present themselves, particularly as you get, you know, as you establish yourself and become more well-known, the opportunities will come to you, but you need to be really diligent about which opportunities you pursue and which ones you say, No to, and arguably you'd be saying no to 95% of them, if not more than that. Otherwise, you'll find yourself burnt out and not really operating at a high level across any of the things you're working on. But I love what you said there. And I think something we discussed, Sai, when you were on my show was around something our team does, which is every 3 months we get together and draw up a quadrant. And within each corner of that quadrant, we say start, stop, do more. do less. And then we just take stock of our products, our features, our marketing channels, our sales channels, our common tasks, and just determine what's not working, what's working, what should we just get rid of, what should we perhaps start exploring that we haven't explored. And by doing that, it just helps the team get into this mindset of constant adaptation and never just becoming stale and stagnant and focusing on the way we've always done things, because then we just become like the corporates that we're advising to move away from that. And even on a personal level, looking at your tasks. So in my case, I use Asana. So I've got a backlog of all the tasks I've done for the last 4 years if I want to go through it, which I don't really want to because that sounds like it's not much fun. But I will go through the last, say, few weeks. So what are the common tasks? Okay, of these, which of them are actually adding value? Which aren't? So performing those 80/20 assessments, focusing on the tasks that really create value, and then asking questions like, of these tasks, Which of them could I delegate or outsource to, say, a virtual assistant offshore? Which of these tasks could I automate? Because as an entrepreneur, you need to focus on your strengths and where you can create the most value.

And I love that model. It's like, what can I eliminate? What can I automate? What can I delegate? What should I be spending my time on? And what I've learned to add in working to design my life as a founder, because when you love— the problem with being working in your passion is that work and play are the same thing many times. And so it's easy to work full on all the time, full out, because it's so enjoyable. I'm in a company and doing work I love that I've also had to look at my time and say, you know, what do I value? Not just what's valuable in my company. What do I value? Whether it's health or family or just downtime. And now let's go back with Asana or my calendar or something and look at, you know, truthfully, if you value these things, where did you put priority and time focus and invest in them? And, um, and that's been eye-opening for me too, that self-reflection and willingness to be a little ruthless about it.

Yeah.

So important. That's all of our companies.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think Stephen Covey talks about that in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, about living a principle-centered life and not being too invested in any one aspect of your life. For example, you jump onto Instagram and you'll find heaps of people who are just way too invested in just the fitness aspect of their lives, but potentially ignore all the other aspects. So, you know, whether that's family, whether that's friendship group, community, health, fitness, your business, your finances. Adventure, exploration, you know, filling your creative desires, all that sort of stuff. And once you actually determine what you value, and then if you strive to live in accordance with those values, you tend to find yourself feeling a lot happier. It's where you have that incongruence that comes from not living in accordance with your values that you become anxious and miserable and oftentimes depressed. So, I think it's such a worthwhile task, not only to help you excel as an entrepreneur, but also just to excel as a human being, to really write down what do you really value and then work towards living in accordance with that.

I love it. I love it, Steve. What I want to stress about, Steve, because we focused on your book, which is published by Wiley, it's coming out globally January 9th. I think the Australians get a sneak preview in December. But we will all see it here, January 9th. And that book is called Employee to Entrepreneur: How to Earn Your Freedom and Do Work That Matters. And I just really encourage everybody who has this hankering for, um, or craving for entrepreneurism to look at it or to get the book and read it. You're gonna look at it, and some of you, the hankering can, as Steve talks about, be satisfied with alternatives that you don't have to take, put everything at risk if you're not ready or clear yet. But I also want to stress that, well, Steve, that's a topic you have, that this concept of entrepreneurship and startup mindsets, growth mindsets, you also— it's not just about helping startups, although you sound brilliant at that. It's bringing that startup mindset into Corporations. And I just want to highlight that part of your business as well, because I just think so many of my listeners too could really benefit from trying to respond to disruption with some new competencies around entrepreneurship. So, what types of things do you do on the day-to-day with organizations?

Sure, sure. Thanks for that question, Asaya. I think what we effectively do at Collective Campus, we work with organizations to unlock the latent potential of people to create impact and help them lead more fulfilling lives, more importantly, because as I said, I was a frustrated entrepreneur and I know what it's like to work for a big company, have the 6-figure salary, but be really unfulfilled. And if you look at large organizations, they command so much capital, so many human resources, yet the way they're built doesn't really bring the best out of people. And one of Past podcast guests are Scott Anthony from from the organization Inner Sight says that the most underutilized source of energy in the world isn't the sun, the wind, or the waves; it's our organizations and their people. So, and I totally wholeheartedly agree. And the kinds of stuff we do—I mean, we've worked with over fifty large brands globally. So big law firms, banks, insurance companies—you name it—we've worked with a hell of a lot of them: MetLife Insurance, BNP Paribas, National Australia Bank. And basically what we do with them is fourfold: we work on their culture by looking at the processes. Systems, values, and helping to redesign them to support entrepreneurial behaviors, to support experimentation. We look at capabilities. So, we teach them how to not only come up with ideas, but how to perform that disciplined execution that comes with testing their ideas. We look at their collaboration piece, which is really around how can large organizations better partner with startups. And in the past 4 years, we've incubated about 100 startups and helped them raise about $25 million. And half of those have come through our corporate accelerator programs. And finally, the creativity piece, which is running programs like hackathons and design sprints and things that will bring people together from different parts of the organization who perhaps normally don't work together to hash out new solutions to problems they might be experiencing. So, we work across those 4 areas with big brands as well as startups, both here in Australia and globally. I mean, we've done stuff in New York, Washington, London, Dubai, Hong Kong, Singapore, you name it. And As I say, I think when you have purpose at the core of what you do, it's just so rewarding. And I think a big reason why we've had the success that we've had doing this, just 2 weeks ago, we were actually recognized by the Australian Financial Review as one of Australia's fastest growing new companies. And I think the reason we are in that position is because there is that alignment of purpose, the alignment of values, which does mean that we've been able to get up and just keep grinding it out day after day after day. Because you're seeing not only the value being delivered, but because you really believe in what you're doing. Because the moment that belief starts wavering and results aren't there, you're just going to throw in the towel because there's no intrinsic nor extrinsic motivation to get you out of bed.

So, so true. It's counterintuitive, but people want to plan for growth. And it's like, you know, that growth will be the reward for you working in alignment with your purpose and the universe and, and all of those things. Steve, it's such a pleasure. I want people to remember your podcast, which is Future Squared, and I was able to be a guest on that. I think it'll be a great resource for them as well, in addition to your book. So how else might they find you? Is it— is the website Collective Campus, or

Yeah. So, I mean, they can just head over to steveglavesky.com. That's got links to all the stuff I'm working on, whether it's Collective Campus, LemonAid Stand, Future Squared podcast. And if they want to find out more about the book and download a free bonus bundle, which has all sorts of resources in there on productivity, sales, marketing, you name it, they can do so over at employee2entrepreneur.io.

Oh, that's awesome. So, they can get in there. And I love that you're offering some bonus stuff. I know that we have to close, but I forgot about LemonAid Stand. A lot of people don't know about Very Cool to Check Out, but that's really an entrepreneurship curriculum. I don't know what to call it, but for kids, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's a children's entrepreneurship program that we founded about 3 years ago. It's more or less a spinoff of Collective Campus, takes what we do here with startups and corporates, but applies it for 9 to 12-year-olds. So we update the language and the delivery, and we teach kids the value of concepts like experimentation, Like testing your ideas, because it's not necessarily about teaching kids how to be entrepreneurs as such, but what I really want them to take out of that is the underlying attributes of an entrepreneur. Because with the world changing so much and with people being expected to have between 10 and 15 jobs in their lifetime, kids really need to learn to become more adaptable. And if they are to survive and thrive in this 21st century, they need to be really working on that critical thinking, the problem solving, the collaborating with others. They're the skills that are going to set them apart from everyone else because what they're getting in most schools today hasn't really changed in the past 100 years. Like they're still learning your English, your maths, and all that stuff is very, very relevant and very, very valuable. But learning how to just execute on a set procedure won't be enough because as we've seen automation taking hold, executing on a set procedure is something that algorithms can do for us. It's going to be about what value can you actually create. And in order to create that value, you need to become resilient, as we've discussed, and really adaptable and adept at experimentation. And they're the kinds of things that we're teaching kids. We've taught over 1,000 kids across Australia and Singapore. And we've just turned that into an online platform, which we're trialing with a school here in Australia. And we'll be looking to take nationwide and perhaps overseas in 2019.

I would love that. I'm so glad. I was just going to ask you if it was online because my kids are— older and hopefully having an entrepreneur as a mom, we have properly prepared them. But I hear so many people wanting to prepare their kids for the future and they think about sports programs and all this other stuff. And I'm like, oh, we need to get these kids in learning the skill sets of entrepreneurship. And I love that you've got something that you're bringing online. So make sure and let us know that so I can let my listeners know when that's out of beta and online.

Will do.

As people are thinking about holidays, I, the gifts I like to give to the kids in my life are experiences and not, you know, material gifts. And so whether it's a season pass to the zoo or, you know, to pay for their gymnastics season or taekwondo or something, this would be an awesome, awesome thing to bring out to your, to our kids in the future. So Steve, thanks for everything you do. I hope to meet you someday.

Likewise. Funny you should say that. I was actually in Nebraska a few months ago, but I didn't realize you were in Omaha. I didn't realize you were in Omaha until 2 days ago. So that's all bad on me, on my part. So my apologies, but I'll definitely come around to Omaha, Nebraska next time I'm in town.

Wasn't meant to be, but we will connect. And maybe I have some other just amazing dear friends. I'm collecting quite a few cool people from Melbourne, so it must be a cool place. I've been to Sydney and Albury-Wodonga and a bunch of other places, but I haven't been to Melbourne yet.

You've been to Albury-Wodonga and not Melbourne?

Exactly. But I hope to come down and visit quite a few of you. So thank you for your time today. Um, I love to leave people with an assignment for self-reflection, and I would like for folks to reflect if you're hankering on those days when you're thinking, gosh dang, I'd love to be out on my own. If it's a reaction to a lesson you're resisting at work that you need to get skilled and grow beyond, or if it's really a calling that you've got a purpose to bring to the world. So next time you get that hankering, start to listen to it. Is it just venting in the form of wishing that you didn't have to deal with what is, or is it a true calling that you've got something you want to bring to the world? And if it's a true calling, Definitely look up Steve's book. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate your time.

Thank you so much, Sy. That was a pleasure.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman.