S2E20: Michael Bungay Stanier: Author of The Coaching Habit & Founder/CEO of Box of Crayons

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. As promised in season 2, I told you I would bring those teachers that I've learned the most from. And before I even met my guest, Michael Bungay Stanier, who's founder and CEO of a company called The Box of Crayons. Before I even met him, I had loved his book and passed it out many, many times. And that book, you probably know if you're a client of mine, 'cause I've given it to you, is The Coaching Habit. So Michael, welcome to the podcast.

No problem. I'm really happy to be here. I do remember, I mean, I remember us meeting and going, oh, you're Cy, and oh, you're Michael, and us kind of connecting like that. So it's nice to be on the podcast. So thanks for having me.

Absolutely. Isn't it funny? It's like you— so many people connect with our work, and I connect with other people's work before I connect with them. And when you meet them, it's just— it's hard to be not— it's hard not to be a little starstruck. But because I'm such a geek on people who come up with great models that just bring wisdom to the workplace, so it's always fun to meet the actual person behind it. Michael, besides all the fun we had when we met, you strike me as a pretty fun guy, and you have a pretty fun name for your company. There's got to be a story behind Box of Crayons.

There is, there is, because Box of Crayons is a name that tends to stand out a little bit, and we get comments about it all the time, really nice comments. And when I started Box of Crayons, as it would become, 16, 17 years ago now, I was like, okay, this is exciting times. I'm starting my own company. I want to have an awesome name. And then you try and brainstorm names. And of course, it's really hard because all the good names are taken. But I was like, okay, what am I going to do? And I was thinking about who I wanted to be in the world and how I wanted to show up. And I come up with these names and I'd send them out to my kind of brain trust list to go, what do you think? And inevitably, I get these comments back going, that is a terrible name. I mean, at one stage, I wanted to call myself, um, oh, what was it? It was Espresso Because for me, espresso is like cool and chic and la bella vita and sort of zipping around the Colosseum in a little scooter. So I was like, oh, this is, this is the name. I can do all sorts of cool things with espresso. And I got the feedback. So espresso is expensive, pretentious, bitter, doesn't last very long, stains your teeth. And I'm like, ah, that's, that's not the brand experience that I'm going for. But then I was sitting on a train going out somewhere, and I remember the moment really clearly. I was like, who do I really love to serve? And at the time when I was doing a lot of coaching, partly it was people who were looking for ways of amplifying the fun in their life. And as soon as I had that insight, honestly, so Box of Crayons just popped into my head, and I knew right away. I was like, that is a great name. And it turns out that it was available, and I could buy the URL for it. So Box of Crayons it became. And of course, what's great about it is it doesn't really stand for anything specific. But when you ask people, what— why did you call your company Box of Crayons? And I go, well, what do you think of when you say Box of Crayons? And they're like, well, fun, creativity, diversity, potential, playfulness. I'm like, exactly, all of that. And then we get to still focus on what we actually do, which is about practical coaching skills for busy leaders and managers.

I love it for so many reasons, and one of them is it's just a name that's big enough to hold all the work you will do, right, in your lifetime. Most of us, you know, name our business blah blah consulting, and then we don't consult anymore, we just train. And so I, I love it. You can tell I gave up really early when I named my company because I called it Cy Wakeman Inc. And I remember seeing the lawyer's office, they're like, what do you want to name it? I'm like, I don't care.

Well, you know, my, my full name is Michael Bungay Stanier. When I got married, I took my wife's name. I was just plain Michael Stanier, then became Bungay Stanier. And while I love having done that, it has proven to be a tough name for people to get their heads around. So, for a number of reasons. One is my final 2 initials now are BS, which is not that great. And I once got a letter addressed to Professor Banging Spaniel, which I'm like, okay, if that's the way my name is pronounced, you know, you want an ego-free podcast, that's an ego-free moment where you're like, Okay, maybe I won't call my company Michael Bungay Stanier because it's just— nobody will remember that.

I love it. I love it. Well, let's get into the big bodies of work you, you have done and do. You know, coaching— the last podcast I recorded, I don't know if it will come out before or after this, I was talking to people about the difference between coaching and mentoring. And while mentoring includes some coaching,

like

Coaching for me tends to be me as a coach helping you with the goal you have in mind to get to the place you want to go and help you either gain some new skills or find a different approach or question your own willingness. But doing this with questioning, not telling, where mentoring is helping you become the person you really want to be. But I'm interested to hear kind of what's your take on mentoring, coaching, how do they connect?

So I'm gonna add one other definition into the, into the mix, which I'll do in just a second. So, for me, mentoring tends to be somebody who is guiding you based on their own experience. So, you know, as you know, mentor comes from The Odyssey. Mentor was the character in The Odyssey who Odysseus said, can you look after my son while I head off around the Mediterranean? And so, when you're a mentor, you've typically walked the path in some way. You've got scars, you've got stories, you've got insights, and you use those as the basis of your guidance. To your point, I think great mentors are often great coaches if you articulate coaching as a way of helping people figure out their own stuff, and often doing that by asking questions. It's not the only tool that you should have as a coach, but it's certainly one of the most powerful ones. And then for us, and this is our focus, particularly at Box of Crayons, is we are not so much about bringing new coaches into the world, but we want more managers and leaders who can be more coach-like. And what we— how we define being more coach-like is a behavior. And it's simply this: can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving just a little bit more slowly?

Oh, I love that.

Exactly.

You gotta repeat that. You get— that's, that's pure gold. We could end the podcast here, but we won't.

I'll drop the mic and stroll off. Yeah.

Say that again because it's sitting— it's just sitting long enough. I love it. Go ahead.

So can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because it turns out— Wow. And this is why this is a perfect conversation for a podcast about no ego, is that most of us are advice-giving maniacs. We love to give advice. Somebody starts talking, and within about 10 seconds, we've got the answer. Like, it's a complex human problem. They're telling us stuff we know nothing about. But after 10 seconds, you're like, oh, I think I, I think I've got something to tell you right now. We've been wired, we've been trained, we've been patterned all our lives to be rewarded and encouraged to have the answer. And of course, there's a place when having the answer is exactly the right thing to be doing. It's ridiculous to think that, as a leader, all you could do is ask questions and do nothing else. But—

Exactly. If someone says, where's the fire extinguisher? Tell them.

Yeah, you don't want to say, how are you feeling about the smoke in the air? You're like, you want to tell them where the fire extinguisher is. So for us, it's just that shift of behavior to say, curiosity is a really powerful leadership trait. And we're not nearly as good at being curious as we might think. And can you just see if you can hold on to the curiosity a little bit longer? And of course, questions are the magic ingredient to drive curiosity. So that's what we think about is— But so many leaders and managers don't want to be coaches. They're like, I just want to do a good job. I want to lead my team. I want to make a difference. I have people who are engaged, who find meaning in the work that they do. I want to go home, and I want to see my kids, and my spouse, and my cat, or Netflix, or whatever. I want to have a life. They don't want to be a coach. They just want to do their job better. And that's why, for us, coaching is an essential, if not the essential, leadership behavior. Stay curious a little bit longer. Rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly.

I love it. And that plays so well into— What we found in our research on accountability, we asked accountable people like how they got that way. And they said that the people in their lives that were their development partners, their leaders, their managers, whatever, actually were— they gave pretty short feedback but gave assignments for self-reflection that were profound. And so they would say, you know, they taught us feedback short, self-reflection long. Mm-hmm. And, you know, even though you're not only asking questions, but just the ability to sit with one while they're curious about themselves, right, and hold space for that self-reflection is such a wonderful thing. And a lot of people panic and go, I don't know how to coach. And coaching is a lot of do less of this rather than do more of that. It's like, it's, it's just like sit and hold space. I had a Reader's Digest article or a little thing I cut out and I had in my journal for a long time. And it was just a, you know, Reader's Digest used to be just this silly little time-wasting magazine. But there was a little boy that on his way home from school would stop by his neighbor's house and his mom would look out and see him sit on the front step with his neighbor. And she just would wonder about that. And these visits got longer and longer and she knew that The neighbor had just lost his wife. And she asked the little boy, she said, you know, what is it you're doing over there for so long with Mr. Johnson? And the little boy said, oh, I just sit and help him cry. And I just, you know, that holding space for another to, you know, feel what they're gonna feel, make sense of what they're gonna make sense of, and encourage them to hold that curiosity longer as well. I think it's just fantastic.

Well, let me give you a tool and the people listening a tool that might be helpful for that, because Because you're right, one of the things that happens when you start talking about coaching or being more coach-like is a lot of people freak out a bit because they're like, I don't know, I'm not— I haven't done the training and I'm not a— I'm not really a people person. So I don't know if I can do that. But in terms of feedback short, self-reflection long, in the Coaching Habit book, the final question, the learning question, is there deliberately, and it is designed to provoke reflection. And it's a question so simple, you can ask it at the end of Pretty much any conversation. You know, we could ask it at the end of this podcast, in fact. And the question is this: what was most useful or most valuable here for you? So it's very simple. It's not loaded. It's not meant to kind of create some profound moment, but it is an ongoing commitment to learning and self-reflection. And when you ask that question at the end of a one-to-one, at the end of an email, at the end of a team meeting, a couple of things happen. The first is that person has a moment of self-reflection. And of course, that's where the learning happens. It doesn't happen beforehand. It doesn't happen when you tell them stuff. It doesn't happen when they do stuff. It happens when they have a moment to self-reflect. The second benefit is you get feedback about what happened that went well. So when you ask them, hey, what was most useful and most valuable for you? And they go, it was this. You go, huh, noted. I'll do more of that next time. And then the third thing—

It becomes that iterative approach.

Right, exactly. So there's that kind of kaizen, constant improvement based on that shared explicit feedback and reflection. And the third kind of cunning piece around this is the way the question is phrased is not, was this useful, but what was most useful or most valuable? And by asking it that way, you're saying to them, hey, every conversation with me is both useful and valuable. Why don't you tell me what was most valuable? most useful in all of this. So at the end of a year when you're doing your performance management review and in the form it says, was your boss a useful, valuable boss? They're like, I don't know, every single conversation I have with this person seems to be amazing. There's always something I take away from it. So it helps reinforce the value and the quality of the relationship you have with that person.

Absolutely love that. And that it sets that intention out there, um, as well, you know, to, to manifest that. It's really priming the pump in positive psychology. You know, I think there's one other thing that happens for me when I do a good job and use your questions, is it shows me where my ego is. Because I think I have just had this profound impact on— you know, I'm thinking they would say, oh my gosh, well, when we talked about this and how you did that. And a lot of times what people walk away with wasn't like what I thought was my most brilliant moment. Right. And what that tells me reminds me is it's never about me. It's not my process. Like, we can be talking about ducks and how the care and feeding of ducks, and, and they can walk away with saying, you know, the most helpful thing about this whole process is I got to, you know, see a sunset out your office window. Right. And it just reminds me that I'm not in charge of this. There's always this third entity happening in a coaching session. If I do my best And have good motive, and the person does their best. There's some third entity where when the student's ready, the teacher appears, and the teacher isn't always me.

I love that. And the thing to add to that, if I may say, is that sometimes when you have conversations with people, you know, this is the dark side of your ego, and you think to yourself, ah, well, that was useless. I didn't, I didn't help at all. I didn't add anything of any value. I wasn't— I mean, I wasted their time, I wasted my time. But you ask that question, what was most useful or most valuable? You might be really surprised about the impact you have had in the conversations that you're having.

That's amazing. And we all need that feedback. So it really, you know, keeps both of us curious. So for people listening to the podcast, we— first of all, they just need to go read the book. I've got the title right. I remember it as The Coaching Habit.

Is that true? The Coaching Habit: Say Less, Ask More, and Change the Way You Lead Forever.

Awesome. And we always associate this work with you because it's just so brilliant. You know, some of us write these books that they just have staying power, and people come up to me all the time and talk to me about Rally-Based Leadership, this book I wrote in 2009, right? And it just, it continues to find new audiences. It's just kind of a classic. And so, and what I love about your book, it's just a super easy read. You can implement it that You know, 5 minutes later, and you will screw it up, but only daily, and that's okay. It's like, it's the book that expects you just to do progress, not perfection. Like,

yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've, I'm sure you've had that conversation before on this podcast about how perfection is a highly overrated everything. Absolutely. And that it's these kind of daily practices that build a habit, and a habit builds that and embeds that behavior that allows you to excel as a leader. So, you're exactly right. And a big part of, I love it. This conversation in the book as well is to say, look, this stuff is simpler. It's simple. It's not easy necessarily, because you're trying to put aside an old way of behaving and enact a new way of behaving, which is always a bit of a challenge. But in terms of being more coach-like, honestly, stay curious a little bit longer. Here are 7 good questions. See if you can ask them a bit more regularly. That's what we're saying.

I love it. You want to give us the questions to get people's Curiosity up?

Sure. So we've talked about one, which is the learning question. I'll pair that with the first question, because we call this in combination, we call them the bookends. So one of our fundamental beliefs, Sai, is that if you can't coach in 10 minutes or less, you don't have time for coaching. Because coaching in organizations and in general just shows up with a whole lot of baggage for people. You know, sometimes people go, oh, you know, I'm Some people are traumatized by coaching. You know, they've had a life coach that's kind of hugged them too much and lit too much incense near them, or they've had a sports coach that shouted at them and made them do push-ups in the mud, or they've been coached out of their last role. So, you know, they've been fired. So that hasn't been good. But if they haven't got that baggage, they tend to have the baggage of thinking coaching is one of those conversations that just takes too much time. And for coaching to really thrive in an organization, you have to remove the barrier of It's just too time-consuming, and I don't have time because I'm already plenty busy enough. So if you buy into the idea of— or it sounds interesting that the idea of, can you coach in 10 minutes or less? It means that you have to start fast and finish strong. I like that. Now, you finish strong by asking the learning question, which is, what was most useful or most valuable here for you? But the kickstart question is a great way to start almost any conversation. And the kickstart question is, what's on your mind? And here's why that works so well. What's on your mind? It says to that other person, hey, you get to pick what this is about. You get to shape this conversation. I'm giving you control of this conversation. It's a very no-ego move. But it also—

It's wonderful. It also takes away this responsibility, like, I have to observe you, I need to know, I need to find something to coach on, like, it's performance management. And it's just like, where's your stressed today? Where are you believing your own thinking? Where are you feeling underskilled in the world? Like, what's on your mind? I love that.

And, and what's nice, and, and you've said it beautifully, Sy, is that it's not saying to them, so tell me everything or tell me anything. It's saying to them, so let's talk about something important. You know, what are you worried about? What are you anxious about? What are you excited about? What are you overwhelmed about? Let's go there, cuz that's how I can help you best. So those are 2 of the 7 questions. Then I want to give you one other combination of questions. It's called the focus question and the best coaching question in the world. So the focus question comes from a belief that in most of our organizations, we are working way too hard coming up with brilliant ideas, putting complicated action plans into place to solve the wrong problem. Because we get seduced into thinking that the first challenge that shows up in a conversation Is the real challenge, and honestly, it almost never is. And that's why we come back to that coaching definition or that be more coach-like definition of curious a little bit longer, rush to action and advice just a little bit more slowly. And the focus question is this: What's the real challenge here for you? So I'll say it again. What's the real challenge here for you? And the way that's said. actually matters. It's a deliberately phrased question because you could ask somebody, hey, what's the challenge here? And honestly, that's it. That's an okay question. But if you've asked somebody what's on their mind and then you go, so what's the challenge here? You're actually going to get almost a repeat of what they've already said. Now, the question—

And it's intellectual and it's about circumstances. I think that would lead people away from accountability.

Nice.

So what's the challenge here? It's like, suck it up, buttercup. And, you know, instead of what—

It's like I'm testing to see whether you can give me almost an executive summary of what's going on.

Exactly. But this really personalizes it. It's like, where in this is your next opportunity? Like, where does this connect with you? Because a lot of times, it's not just this situation, but some of the things that— where's the challenge for you? They are really— they've seen this before. They're starting to see some repeats in their lives.

Well, that's what you pointed to brilliantly, which is that those 2 words on the end of the question, for you, is what allows the spotlight to swing from the challenge to the person dealing with the challenge. And now it becomes much more powerful. And if you add that other word, what's the real challenge, it becomes more powerful still. So what's the challenge here? Okay-ish.

I get it. What's the real challenge here for you? Yeah,

what's the real challenge here says to them, hey, there's more than one thing going on. What do you think the real challenge is? So now they're working. And then you go, what's the real challenge here for you? And now it's about them, not about the challenge. And when it's about them, they get to grow, they get to learn. And also the challenge gets dealt with as well. So what's

the real challenge here for you? It bypasses the ego, like, it gives permission To say, I get that this is challenging. Tell me more about what's real for you. And what is this for you? It just— it's a nice transition into some really beautiful self-reflection.

Right. Now, here's how I would combine it. What's the real challenge here for you? Already a great question. You're already going to get introspection. You're going to get a degree of vulnerability, potentially. It's going to be personal. It's going to matter. And you don't necessarily want to be seduced into thinking that the first challenge is actually the real challenge. So then we introduce the best coaching question in the world, which is simply, and what else? Because the first answer is never their only answer.

That's great. And it's rarely their best answer. Yeah, we learn that as therapists because, um, what you present, um, is the most politically appropriate or the most simplistic kind of view or the most what you think is obvious. But we've all had those moments where we walk away so surprised about what we actually needed to work on.

Right. Exactly. So almost never the, you know, therapy speak, the presenting issue is almost never the real issue. Exactly. It's like there's always something else going on. So if you go, what's the real challenge here for you? And what else is a challenge? And what else is a challenge? And then you just repeat the focus questions. So what's the real challenge here for you? You can see how clean and quick and crisp that is as a little script. But what's amazing is almost always the conversation shifts. The focus becomes more personal. The nexus of the problem becomes slightly different, slightly more important. And you've just got a little bit closer to spending time and effort trying to solve the real thing rather than the first thing.

Love it. Which is so valuable. I mean, when we get to the last question, what was the value? I mean, that becomes valuable because even in that moment, helping me ask myself, you know, what's kind of the core issue, it brings some relief. Because once we can identify— we know from problem-solving, you know, strategies— once we can kind of identify the root cause, we just have a better shot at fixing the right thing.

Yeah. And what's delightful— and this is for everybody listening and going, hey, I don't have time for this coaching malarkey— if you just have that discipline to try and dig down onto what the real challenge here for you might be, there's this amazing moment that when somebody gets that insight as to, oh my goodness, that's the thing, this is the real challenge, lots of time, that's all the support they need from you. Because once they see what the real challenge is, they actually know what to do. They know the next steps, they know how to act, they know the solution. They're, like, desperate for you to stop talking to them so they can leave and get on with solving this problem. So true. So, it's part of the efficiency of this process, which is, can you put your ego aside so that you don't need to be the person providing the solution, but can you be fierce enough to hold the space to get clear on what the real challenge is so that solution will appear for the person that you're working with?

Good stuff. So there's a couple more questions in there if I remember right, and a lot of times it does end right there because the other thing about coaching is a belief in the innate potential of people, that they don't need us as much as they think that they do, that they come a pretty full package. They come pretty dang talented.

Right, exactly. And of course, I mean, just to say it again, because we've said it before, but it's worth repeating, there are times when they need the answer from you. You know, sometimes they don't know what they don't know. Sometimes it's a brand new experience. Sometimes they just need help. And just being a bit more coach-like so you can have these conversations You can take them as far as their knowledge will allow. And then as the leader, you get to decide, what's the most useful thing for me to do here? Is it to have them figure it out themselves? Is it for me to now support them and give them an insight? Is it— what's the next step here? But

which is wonderful. We call that balancing frustration with self-reflection, right? Because the bottom line message is, I care about you, and this isn't a game, or this isn't meant to We don't want to frustrate you, but there's sometimes you'll be in a bit of tension, but we want you to know you're loved and supported. And a lot of times people just don't know the science of something or don't know, they just haven't had the information or the training they need. And you could build a quick skill or you could role-play for them or go with them, or there's 100 things you could do. But I think what I'm getting from you is just push that frontier just a little longer each time.

Exactly. Just resist. I mean, we— when we work with people in organizations, we introduce this whole idea of an advice monster. So, as soon as that other person starts talking, your advice monster comes up out of the dark and goes, oh, here I am. I'm about to add some value to this conversation right away. And what you're trying to do is just tame your advice monsters. Just slow it down. It's always going to be there. It never goes away entirely. But if you can slow that down, And actually, that's a nice introduction for— let me make this the final question I share. It's called the lazy question. And when I share it, Sai, it's going to sound counterintuitive, because it's not going to sound like a lazy question. But what I notice, and I'm sure you have as well, that with most of the leaders and managers with whom we work, they're all busy. They've all got too much on their plate. They're all in a state of some degree of anxiety, either high anxiety, or just maybe a low rumbling of anxiety about just how much they're trying to do. And part of the challenge is the busyness of our corporate lives. I mean, that's just true. But part of the challenge is self-inflicted because of our desire to jump in, fix things, solve things, be the solution for people, to rescue people. And part of what the lazy question is about is to slow down that rush to try and rescue people. So the lazy question is, How can I help? Or a little more bluntly, what do you want from me? How can I help? Or what do you want from me? And of course, it sounds the opposite of lazy because it sounds like you're actually asking for work to be given to you. But in fact, what you're doing is you're trying to interrupt the pattern of behavior that many of us have, which is you just jump in uninvited and start fixing it and solving it for that other person. And by slowing that down and going, okay, hey, say a lot going on here. I hear it. I hear it coming. I can see that you're stressed about it. But before I jump in, how can I help? Or before I jump in, what do you want from me exactly? What you're doing there is you're making that other person make a direct, clear request for the help that they're actually looking for. And of course, You're an adult, so you get to make a choice as to whether you want to say yes or no or maybe in terms of a response to that request.

Which is wonderful because it's like, you know, if they say, well, you could do my job for me, I tell my people, because that's a big question we teach as well, you'd say, well, you know, I'm not sure that would be the most helpful or that I'm wanting to do that. But what I think people need to, as they experiment with this, what they might find, what I have found Is a lot of times what people need me to do is really basic, and in fact, I don't want to get into gender stereotypes. But as a marriage counselor, in the typical, if there was a relationship where a typical female was with kind of a typical male, the most surprising thing when a male would ask a female, "What what do you want from me right now?" It was I just. I just want to know that you heard me. Like, they don't need to fix it. There's just like nothing they need to do. And in fact, it's relieving because I want to tell you this and then not have to defend off all of your suggestions that aren't mine now.

Right, exactly. So ironically, we have that gender role reversed a little bit in my family with my wife. So she is the great solution seeker. So I'll say to her, hey, this thing's happening at work. And she's like, oh, well, you could do this. And you could do that, and you could do the other. And I'm like, it's not that those are bad ideas. It's just that I didn't— I don't need them, or I don't even really want them. I'm just trying to have a sense of empathy and a shared experience. I want you to know what I'm up against. I don't want you to actually solve this for me. So I totally get that.

So in our work, we look at drama as emotional waste in the workplace. And the way you get rid of waste in the workplace places with it through— with a good process or an improved process. And the way you get rid of emotional waste is with a good mental process. Mm-hmm. And what I love about what you're putting out there from some of these questions that lead to self-reflection— it's kind of the ultimate drama or ego bypass— is that these questions eventually begin to live within the person who has experienced you in a conversational way with just some consistent routine self-reflection, they're like, you know, gosh, I'm feeling frustrated right now and I'm not with my leader,

right?

But I can just ask myself, like, what's the real challenge in this for me? Exactly. And what I love about what we're teaching people is we're really skilling them up to use these mental processes on a regular basis, which elevates their consciousness. So anytime you get out of the story and into reflection, you've, you've elevated your consciousness. So just by doing that, you will see the world from a different viewpoint, and you'll have many more options and places to have impact. And so just even doing this with people, it doesn't really matter what the local immediate outcome was. Hopefully people found a place to move forward with some challenges, but over time it really changes the person themselves and the elevation at which they view the world. I love that. And that, I think, is the ultimate power.

And by— I love the language you're using around changing the elevation and at the level they see the world. Because for me, that ties into how do you help people become strategic, strategic in their own lives, but also in their organizational role as well. And for me, strategy is a visual art. It's about how well do you see the goal, and how well do you see the landscape in front of you, and how well can you plot potential paths through that landscape to get to where you want to go to. And to carry on your metaphor, as you elevate, the better view you get of the landscape. So you're not just encouraging self-reliance and self-sufficiency here, but you're encouraging that kind of critical perspective that allows people to be smarter and more strategic about the choices they make.

I love that view on strategy because people ask me all the time, how do you help people develop the competency of, you know, strategic thinking. And, and I haven't heard anyone put it like you just put it, that such a visual— it's, it's a visual skill set competency. One time when I was leading a lot of hikes, I was pretty scared. I was inexperienced at, you know, before GPS, I was inexperienced at, you know, kind of figuring out where we were. And somebody said to me, you know what, don't worry, if you ever get lost just seek a higher elevation. Climb a tree, climb a rock, climb a mountain. Look at the view from there, commit that view to memory, and then go back down and lead your people forward. And that's kind of, to me, what a good coaching conversation does, is it just elevates me so then when I go back to my daily work, I can lead people forward differently.

You know, the insight I got around strategy being a visual art actually came from an article I was reading that talked about how a disproportionate number of senior leaders in organizations organizations are dyslexic. And because dyslexia, rather than framing it as a disability, is often these days framed as a different type of intelligence, a more visual intelligence. And there are a number of leaders who are like, I can't actually write down my strategy because I don't have that ability to control words like others do, but I can draw it for you. And the fact that these people tend to thrive when they get to that strategic role is really part of what made me

That's so interesting, visual. And for me, at times, even though I'm a writer— and I'm about to— we're gonna take some extra time on this podcast to talk about the pain of writing. But for me as a writer too, it's difficult because sometimes I feel it like at a cellular level. Or what my husband will notice about me is that I can't tell him what I want to do next, but I will manifest it, connect to it in the oddest ways, and just bring it out. it home. Like, we have looked for a long time about— for a wonderful dream property for ourselves in Mexico, and he has looked logically, and he's even drawn quadrants and looked at every house inside the quadrant. And he could tell you exactly from a strategy point what every box needs to be checked. And I don't know how I do it, but a girlfriend and I were driving to lunch, and I just sensed I should take a different way, and I drove right to a house that I put a bid on before we got to lunch.

That's amazing.

And, and it's not any superpower. I'm not psychic. I'm not— it's just I love that we're seeing things like dyslexia as just a visual form of intelligence, because I think that we aren't giving enough credit to all the ways of knowing. And as we're getting better and Including that diversity, and people are being more brave to speak up that I maybe can't, you know, wordsmith that beautifully, but I just have a compelling intuition about where we need to focus. Um, I just think we'll be better, um, not only at work, but, but at home. And, and that's the thing I love too, when you even just get okay at some of this coaching, um, What I hear a lot from people is once you get good at coaching at home— or I mean, once you get good at coaching at work, even just a little bit better at coaching, it allows you a way to open up space at home that you, you didn't know. People write me all the time like, Cy, this stuff helped me so much at home. It's good at work, but it helped me at home. Because there are these portals, um, you know, Marianne Williamson calls, of course, in, in, in her book Return to Love. A miracle is any shift in perception that allows an opening. And I think we walk through life at home where there's so many openings to take relationships to the next level, but we don't have the curiosity or we don't create the space to do that. And so I love when people take this stuff home with them.

Yeah, I love it too, you know. And what's been gratifying about the book— I mean, I wrote that book going, I'm really writing this for the busy leader and the busy manager, the person who wants to show up, wants to do a good job, just feels like they got a bit stuck in terms of how to elevate to the next level of leadership. And we get, not every day but regularly enough, people going, I did this with my teenager and it actually worked. Hey, I did that with my spouse and it actually worked. And those are pretty gratifying emails to get.

It's amazing. And the concept is really simple. When you tell somebody, you engage their ego. When you ask somebody, you bypass their ego. Because what you're saying when you engage somebody is, we've got to figure out who's smarter and who knows best and, and who's right. When you ask somebody, you're just saying, I'm willing to be present while you discover. And I think that's the ultimate gift we can give people, because it says to them, I really think you're brilliant and you know best, and, and tap into your own stuff. And what I have found when I'm doing coaching well as a leader I do feel a bit lazy as a leader because my job is just to sit and love people and ask good questions. And it's easy, it's effortless. And I tell people, when you're at a higher level of consciousness as a leader, your job will become effortless. And when you're at least just a little skilled in coaching, that you, you will find that it's effortless.

We have 3 principles when we teach coaching, and the 3 principles are be lazy, Be curious. Be often. Be lazy. Just stop trying to jump in and fix and solve everybody's life for them. Let them solve their own lives. Be curious. We've talked about tame your advice monster. And be often is to recognize that every interaction can be a bit more coach-like. You know, one of the things that we, I guess, battle against a bit is that perception that coaching is the occasional formal sit-down. Okay, Sai, it's our coaching session. Let's have that coaching session now. As opposed to saying, look, if, if being more coach-like is saying, can you be curious just a little bit longer? Well, then every interaction in person, on the phone, on text, on Slack, can all be a bit more curious because you just ask a question or two.

It really is. And when you do that, you can be conversational so that you really don't ever have to become confrontational. There's just nothing that sits long enough that you have to confront with if you're curious and, and conversational. And, you know, it's just about Just in that process, you know, as we— so thank you for all this great coaching stuff. I'm gonna leave a few things unanswered because I really want people to go out and discover you. Look up Box of Crayons, look up Michael Bungay Sr., look up and buy The Coaching Habit. I'm excited because I heard winds that you're writing a new book. What's the new book on?

I think— I don't know if you ever read or know of the book Eat, Pray, Love, but I remember Liz, Liz Gilbert.

Gilbert, right? Yep.

After the amazing success of that book, saying, I'm now writing, working on the disappointing sequel to Eat, Pray, Love. And, you know, The Coaching Habit had an amazing success. It sold north of half a million copies now. And I feel like I'm working on the disappointing sequel to The Coaching Habit. But yeah, you know, it's, it's trying to take the practicality of being more coach-like down to the next level. In The Coaching Habit, we talk about these 7 questions and how building a habit is essential to that. And people are still going, this is great. And I just want a bit more practical, tactical stuff to help me make coaching feel like an everyday, normal, unweird way of showing up. So, you know, it's early days, I've just kind of been on a bit of a writing retreat where I have just spent days trying to write out structure because I lead with structure when I'm writing. I try not to get too much writing done before I know the shapes that I'm trying to fill. So how many chapters? How many— what's the— is there a parallel construction in the chapters so there's a rhythm to it? How many words am I trying to write? I always have the philosophy of what's the shortest book I could write that's going to be the most useful? So how do I keep this book to 20,000 words or less, which sounds a lot, but actually it's not that much? You know, how much can I leave out of this book because my personal gripe with business books in particular is they tend to be overstuffed. It's like training programs as well. It's just, we keep trying to cram content in as if that's the useful thing. Whereas I'm like, what's the least content I could teach that would be the most useful so that when people read this book, it feels like the perfect dose of knowledge and encouragement rather than a sense of overwhelm that sometimes comes with books? Yeah.

I think that's so wonderful too. We work hard in our organizations. The hardest work ever is to boil something down to its essence and then really leave that for reflection of other people. Right. I'm so excited that you're doing this because people do, I think, at times want a little bit more detail, like some— a little bit of scripting, and like, what, what's it look like? What's it sound like? How can you make it come alive to me? So I go, oh, aha, I already knew what it was. I just needed to see that. You know, it's funny you brought up Elizabeth Gilbert because I'm not sure if you are aware that she actually wrote this incredible book called Big Magic.

Oh yeah, I love that book. And she had a great podcast associated with it of the same name.

Awesome. I need to look at the podcast. But she taught me as a writer that you get your butt in the chair and you be open to the muse that Right. And that muse is out there finding somebody, and just you have to figure out whether you're going to be a good partner for, for this work. So your structure is really creating this great place for the muse to know where to land. It's like you're painting the landing.

Exactly. In fact, she has a great TED Talk around that, and I think she says something very similar. She says, like, you know,

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I love that whole reminder of the disappointing sequel because when I wrote my first book and, you know, people really enjoyed it, and then I wrote my second book, and it's actually the book that became a New York bestseller that most people don't even know about, which is so confusing to me because it's the book that sold the most, but it's never the book that somebody cites. Right. And I'm like, what? That says this is the book that really like helped me, and I did that book for the publisher, not necessarily from my heart. Although it's a great book, people you know love that it's written for the employee. So when I wrote No Ego, that came out in 2017 or 18, I can't remember over a year ago. It was it was so it was 2017. It was so interesting because. I wanted to go to bed the day that book was published. I'm like, I am— it felt so vulnerable to put it out there because reality-based leadership had been in me for so long that the writing was just spilling my guts out. Right. The no ego forced me to say, what do I really believe? And if I have to get more exact, what would exact be? And I can't just say this is what's wrong. I have to say, like, how would you fix it? I had to really self-reflect and it gets so, so much more exact. But just like that last such set, that question in a coaching session where you say, you know, what part of this is helpful for you and your most valuable— Yeah. I was floored because people would come up to me and they're like, No Ego changed my life. And I'm like, well, I think it should be my first book. I think it's actually like— and what I learned from that that is writing the book is my business, to be— as have integrity to what I believe and to bring my little tiny part of the message to the world. But when that book goes out, it's none of my business, right? That book will find who it needs to find and help who it needs to help. And that's kind of that point in coaching where you resist the advice-giving. You just stay curious a little longer. It's like, I created this and I'm gonna put it out in the world and And it will help some and it won't help some. And the right people will find it.

Some people will love it. Some people will think it's the worst book ever written. And so it is.

And on a, on a big scale, it's kind of like that leap of faith you have to take in coaching with just one single person to just stay curious. Putting a book out there is a leap you have to take, um, that same type of leap, but in a, in a bigger sphere. So, yeah.

And like, like with coaching and like with everything, cuz you know, you get to control the process, you don't get to control the outcome. So you write the book and you go, it's the book I could have written at the time. I gave it all I had. It'll either take off or it won't take off. It'll either sell a lot or sell a little. I've done the best I can. We'll see how it goes. That's part of what's so delightful for me about The Coaching Habit is, I mean, I spent 3 years pitching that and getting turned down by publishers until I finally went, I can't take it anymore. I'm just gonna self-publish this and get it out into the world. And of course, it's been a big hit.

It's been fantastic. And that's why we don't know what we need, what we truly need. Like, you may have thought you had to have a publisher to have a successful book. How would we know?

Exactly.

How would we know? Well, I, I love it. The act of writing is very, um, painful because you kind of go to the, the depths of your own soul in, in some regards. But I can't wait for, um, your next, um, contribution.

Someone said that writing You just stare at a blank sheet of paper till drops of blood appear on your forehead. And I feel like I'm waiting for the drops of blood to appear on my forehead. Anytime now would be great.

Ew, I love it. That's probably the most accurate thing I've ever heard because when I wanted to be a writer, I didn't even want to be a writer, I wanted to write a book. It seemed like kind of a romantic thing, going on writing retreats and write. And then I realized how I'm just filling the pages. not in control of that. But Michael, what a pleasure to connect with you, and it's made me realize we don't connect often enough because you just have some wonderful insight to give the world. And I really appreciate you coming on. Unfortunately, we are out of time. I always give people an assignment for self-reflection at the end of my sessions. I kind of feel sometimes that coaching without us not agreeing on some sort of assignment didn't really happen. But my assignment for folks today is, in every interaction you can muster up the courage, just stay curious 1 minute longer. Beautiful. And, and then tell us— we would love to hear about, in that space you created, what miracles happened, what shifts in perception happened, as Marianne Williamson would say. So, Michael, thank you. Let's not make it this long before we connect again, but thanks for being in my life.

Cy, it's a pleasure, and right back at you.

Awesome. Thank you. This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.