S2E27: Joni Wheeler, CEO of CoreLink, on Succeeding In Spite of Circumstances

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of No Ego Podcast. You guys know I love bringing you stories of succeeding in spite of the facts, especially when they're extraordinary stories. And so today I've asked Joni Wheeler, who is CEO of CoreLink, to come on, talk to us about about an incredible story of how you maintain engagement and even recruit to and foster accountability in an organization that's basically dismantling itself. Welcome, Joni.

Thank you, Cy. Thank you.

I just loved this story when I first heard it, and so I just wanted to bring it to my listeners. So I'm going to turn it over to you. You've got to tell this amazing kind of experiment you've been part of.

Okay, uh, will do. So CoreLink is a small company. It's a joint venture between 2 Blue Cross Blue Shield organizations, and it's located in Fargo, North Dakota. Also have an office in Omaha, and it's been running about 10 years, and it's been running real well. And then about 2 years ago, we got notification that our owners were gonna take a different path. And so as a result of that, that CoreLink would be closing over the next couple of years.

So they really gave kind of 2 years' notice to say, We're breaking up, we're divesting of this. But you still had to provide services. It wasn't like, so you can take 2 years to shut down. It was like, run hard and close.

Right, right. So we're, we're actually still running hard. We— they still process on our system, and we've got 2 more years. So it'll be a total of about 4 years from the notification. And so we've had to, to figure out how do we retain people and still run you know, that business for our companies as they start to transition to their new platforms. And how do we, not just how do we retain people, but how do we motivate them to want to continue to come in here every day?

And haven't you even hired people to a company that's closing? That blows my mind.

We have, we have.

I love it.

We have. So in Fargo, we have quite a reputation of a company that people want to be a part of, even though it is closing. And we let everybody know, in interviews that we are closing just in case this isn't a journey they want to partake in. And we've only had a few people in the dozens of interviews we've had say, you know what, maybe that's not for me. Most of them say, if I can be part of a great culture for however long that is, I want to be a part of that.

That's so true. And I just want to highlight that I love that statement because I tell people that the real shortage out there is great places for high accountables to work, no matter how long. And so many people believe that they have to create this, this, um, you know, business case to try and beg people to work for them. And I'm like, you can build a place that's very attractive to folks that they're even willing to join knowing that the future isn't all that bright. Um, so what are some of the— tips and techniques? How have you done this?

Right, it's a great question. Sometimes I ask myself, how are we still doing this? Um, yeah, because we're coming up on 2 years since that notice. And, um, when we first got the notice, um, you know, we knew that we were going to be letting people go over the next couple of years. And so even our— wanted to be very special and, and make sure that people felt continue to feel valued, to feel that they were part of this special culture. And so the way that we've done what you would normally call a layoff, we call a launch. And we want to not just launch them out of CoreLink, we want to launch them into their next great thing, and we want to work with them through that journey. So we actually give them— we give them 6 months notice, and then we have the typical kind of severance package and all those types of things once that 6 months is up. But we also continue to invest in them and their journey from a development standpoint. We help them. Many folks have worked at this company or were one of the blues that joined in this venture for over 30 years. And so they've never known any other job. And so we help them with resume writing. We help them with how to interview, how to ask questions so that You know that this, this future position is right for you as much as the company, that you're right for them. So we really put our arms around each and every employee, and we're joining them right from where they are today and walking with them. And it has garnered people turning down jobs to stay here because they feel so supported and so valued and so invested in.

Well, and I think that's such a strong message because we all assume that there's nothing we can do when that company's future is unknown to like retain people. And there's a ton of things you can do, which is create a relationship where people feel loved and supported that they want to stay to the last minute. Um, and, and I love it. It's a belief that the world's abundant. And I think for every company, even that hopefully isn't closing in the near future, what if we made an emotional contract with the employee that we will invest Yeah. And while you're here, we want you to give us great stuff. That's the shared accountability. And when it's not time for you to be here, for whatever reason, you want to pursue something else, um, you can no longer find joy in this work, that we will support that transition fully. And, um, I just think that's such a great shared accountability. You can't be here and take advantage of us, you know, and collect severance and go, but you can be here and step up and we will do our part to shepherd you into the next place. And it really is a mature, open dialogue that you're having with people. It's, it's bigger than transparency because a lot of transparency is telling, you know, the inner secrets, but it's maturity in that we, we are going to have good dialogue and move through this together.

Absolutely, Cy. And I want to touch on the accountability piece for a minute. When we first started talking about this journey, we said this isn't going to be easy. We've built this family. We support our customers. It's not going to be an easy journey to move away from CoreLink, and we want you each to make that choice. If you do make the choice to stay, though, then we're going to ask you to lead from where you are. We're going to ask you to step up and be accountable and rise above and deliver, continue to deliver to our customers. And let's leave a legacy where our customers leave feeling like, wow, I'm going to search for that experience for the rest of my journey as I, as I move and work with other vendors and other professional services groups.

I love it. So it's less about like, what do I get out of this? And more about what can I be part of? Um, which is so powerful. I was consulting with a company and, um, they were required under the WARN Act to give notice. And they basically, they gave notice and I was part of the team that basically at the end of the day, like needed to shut the lights out. And then I fired them and then they discontinued my contract. Like we had to kind of pass the pen back and forth between the last 2 of us. And some people came to me in their low self and they were really feeling victimized. And I'm like, you know what? This is really an opportunity. And I'm not just saying that for you to be positive, but how cool would it be to go into a job interview? And when they ask if you've ever been through adversity and how'd you do, you said, you know what? shut a company down and fired myself. And I did it with full energy to the very last minute. And I really created amazing things, even in those circumstances. That's why you want me on this team. Um, you know, or even a client story to tell that if, you know, as a client of, you know, my next company, here's my level of commitment to you is that we stayed to the end, making sure even the last day of client experience was profound. And if I can do that there, you definitely should buy Absolutely.

That, that's such a great statement. And that's exactly what we try to do here. Each individual has something to offer for as long as they are here. And we had a strong culture prior to this. And I think what we said is our culture and how we show up and how we behave is still what it was before. And everybody has a choice to make. And, but as long as you show up and you're willing to learn, you're welcome here. We treat each other with dignity and respect. We give, we rise above and we give everything, our absolute best to our customer and to each other and to our community. And that doesn't change. And we still, you know, manage performance as we did before. So, you know, to your earlier comment, we don't give a free pass for folks.

And I love that because you could sympathize and play into the victim thing where we're going to lower performance standards because after all, you know, you're losing your job and you don't. And I think that For people that can borrow the lesson in their organizations today from what you're going through is, you know, why do we give people bonus points for circumstances when their real satisfaction comes from being called to greatness regardless of their circumstances so that people can prove to themselves what they're truly capable of? This to me proves— it's another data point for me that engagement is a choice, that it's not our environment or external realities that determine your engagement. It's us. It's not whether I have Coke and Pepsi in the break room and I can create this, you know, perfect environment for you that you just come and with very little effort, you know, engagement just rolls out of your body. It really is— what you guys have done is really highlighted that engagement is a choice. This is, you know, a set of circumstances and you still need to come every day and choose to plug and play and engage and be in joy. Otherwise, we'll exit you. Earlier than you might've imagined, because one thing I know, if you've got this difficult work to do, you have to become even less tolerant of people that are bringing drama to the table.

Absolutely. I could not agree more. And we don't use the launch either as an excuse to, hey, you now get this 6 months. If you aren't performing, we will just really kind of manage you out and, and, um, and, and put you on that performance plan and, and help you find something that's a better fit for you. And those in the launch, it's really about those roles that we just don't need as we go through this journey and have less and less of the new types of business to put on the system. And folks have responded so well, Sai. It continues to amaze me every day. And they continue to be innovative and think about differently on how to solve problems and really how to make sure our customers are having the absolute best experience possible. And when you're closing, it's really easy to say, poor me, poor us, you know, what about us, why should we support the customer? But that— there's none of that here. And, and I'm just so proud to be a part of it.

You know, maybe it's like the Janis Joplin song, like, freedom's, you know, what you have when you have nothing left to lose. Like, the ultimate job experience is like, might as well stay here and innovate and do amazing things, because you kind of took all the table. You know, one of the biggest excuses people use for not going all in is this fear of being thrown out. And you guys kind of took that, took that away. To me, it's like this extreme example of shared accountability that even while you're in this launch period for 6 months, we're going to work with you and just make sure that you transition well. Um, even there is shared accountability. If you are not, um, You know, stepping into that sweet spot where the organization gives you amazing resources, but only to the high accountables, then you don't get access to those resources and will performance manage you out even when you're on launch.

That's right.

And, and I just hope more companies can start to think about, um, that sweet spot where great organizations meet high accountables. What gets to be the crazy spot is where great organizations try to buy the love of people regardless of their accountability level. And that's where we just kind of start dumbing down, and our results show it, because we're taking over responsibility for low-accountables' job experience. And we're really out there preaching shared accountability, and that if you're not loving your job, look first to your part in that, and then— Look to the organization, but so many people look to the organization first. I mean, I'm just starting to imagine some of the people who ask me, how do I deal with this employee? And I just try and imagine that employee in this situation, um, just would really flame out. You need people who are ready for what's next, even when that readiness is this year, I'm going to learn how to dismantle a company and convert these services back to internal systems or to other vendors.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's really been incredible. And I think it started with leaders. So the shared accountability we do preach, as you— we each own our own career. And it has to start with us as leaders, knowing that nobody here has ever closed down a company, including myself. How do we help the organization lead through it? And it can't be one leader. It has to be each and every one of us. Delivering the same message, being in unison, being aligned, and how do we help ourselves and each other as leaders walk through this? And then together, how do we help the organization? So that's been quite a journey for me as well in just, you know, how do I kind of lead from the front and build these leaders to where we're all walking an entire organization through this and helping you know, deliver messages and helping folks, uh, you know, off to their next thing. And while they're here, perform at their best and, and help them, you know, decide what's next for them while they're still delivering on commitments to our current customers. It's, it's just been phenomenal.

It's really, I love it. It's mind-blowing because it, it just is this unique situation that supports so much of what, you know, I'm out there preaching and teaching. And, you know, as a leader, as the leaders go, so do the employees go. Like, we really teach people how to view situations. And, you know, when you have extraordinary times like this, it's times to be careful and intentional because an error on a leader's part in these times could really add in just some horrid drama that would really screw this up. And a lot of times when I am first working with leaders, I say, you know what, you lose the right to your personal opinion. You have to walk carefully, be intentional, be aligned. You can't be in a meeting and agree to something and then walk out of the meeting and throw somebody under the bus or say, well, I didn't necessarily support it. Like, your leaders just have to be locked, like, hip, you know, at the hip, because you guys can't afford to have disparate messages out there because it's such careful, intentional times. Mm-hmm. And your extraordinary circumstances brought that. But I'm hoping that all leaders really look at how they're walking through the world and, and that they're using like empathy rather than sympathy. Sympathy is, you poor thing, I feel sorry for you. I agree with you. We're all victims. But empathy, yep, that's our reality. But great leaders separate out reality from suffering. So my reality is we're closing, but that doesn't mean we have to suffer. Suffering is not mandatory. It's optional. And you guys are just really proving that you can separate out reality from suffering. And you guys are joyfully moving through, you know, everyone losing their jobs, which doesn't seem— you know, it just doesn't make that much rational sense. But I love what you've been able to create. What advice would you give to leaders? Like, if you had to say— so I really want this to be like a Harvard Business Case Review, because I want it to be like the lessons I learned maintaining engaged, you know, employees while closing down a company? Like, do you have any takeaways?

Yeah. You know, so I, the one thing that, that the biggest thing I'm going to take away from this is that what we are doing in a closing company is absolutely what should be done in growing companies or current companies, companies that, that don't have, you know, a closing statement in front of them. It's, it's as a leader, Yeah. You know, owning your own behaviors first and modeling what we need to see in our employees, modeling that accountability, modeling the empathy versus sympathy. And then with our employees, it's investing in them. And it's not all investing dollars and necessarily hardcore training, but it's time, investing time connecting with them, building relationships with them, and walking with them through the journey that they're going through. just the most profound thing. And, and I, I think I did that okay in previous companies, but I've really, I'm gonna raise the bar on myself much higher having gone through this experience and, and walking with these amazing leaders and these amazing employees. And I just couldn't be more proud. But I would say if we were doing this in all the other companies out there, imagine what employee engagement, employee experience would look like.

I love it. I love it because it really is, um, what you're talking about. The, the leaders have gotten very disciplined and intentional, which is what we talk a lot about. And they've really called people up to greatness and said, stop blaming your circumstances. Your circumstances aren't the reasons you can't succeed. There are reality in which we must succeed. And I absolutely think you're right. There's so many lessons to take away from closing a company, um, that we could use to really, um, be thriving. And of course I love the story because it aligns with so much of what we teach in reality-based leadership. And, and, you know, what you're creating in your role also as, you know, head of HR in Blue Cross Blue Shield Nebraska. It's like, I love that you're taking these lessons forward. And so I'm gonna do my darndest to help get this published for folks because I just think it's such a unique story of what you learned in the closing company and, and what you've learned for For yourself. So you've got maybe another 2 years of work to do. What, what size of company is it? How many employees are there currently? As you've— I know you've launched quite a few,

right? So we were about 300. We're probably about 220 right now. Um, and this week I'm out here and we're having what we call launch discussions. So we tell people 6 months in advance of when they're in the next launch. Our next launch is October. And, and these are harder and harder because we know that the launch Yeah. The challenges will get bigger and bigger. But I'll tell you, the spirit here in these employees, it just, it invigorates me and it keeps me very, very humble because they're amazing and they're going through this every single day. Like, to your point earlier, I do also have a role at Blue Cross Nebraska. So I won't be launched per se out into the community at the end of this next 2 years. And these folks are— their courage and their triumph is just— it's inspiring. So we will, you know, over the next 2 years, move through the launches and go down to just really where it's me and someone else turning off the lights and doing what you did, sitting across the table and signing the final forms.

Jenny, this is incredible. And I love even how you reframed the, you know, and use the word launch. It isn't flowery. It isn't like we're going to pretend this isn't happening. It's like, now your next work ahead of you is, is X. And I knew when I first met you and I started to hear you talk that I just loved your leadership philosophy. And then when I heard this story that you literally are going to be, you know, one of the last 2 left standing, fire yourself, and that you yourself are being launched, um, is important. So here's what I would tell people out there. I think some of the most highly attractive talent happens to work at CoreLink and Fargo. Like, people, when it's time— don't be stealing from Joni early— but when it's time, if you want to find a group of high-accountable, high-spirited, engaged-by-choice people, there's, there's a pocket of them in Fargo. Joni, you're proof that it's possible. Your people are proof that you can operate through any circumstance in high self, and growth from it and benefit from it. It's not about what's happening to you. It is about how you develop in that moment of crisis. And those are some of the funnest stories to tell you. I tell— when I meet folks from that experience where, you know, we kind of pulled off the impossible, those are some of my proudest moments of how I acted with integrity to my own belief. And when you're in these careful, intentional times and you're acting with integrity, it just really changes you kind of on a cellular level. You're a better

I could not agree more. That is so well put.

It's like, you— yeah, you know what you're made of. You know what you're made of. Well, Joni, I promised you I would only take a few minutes of your time. I know you carved away from really important launch work a few minutes of your time, but I definitely want to bring to my No Ego listeners a success story of succeeding in spite of the facts. And, uh, we will, um, we will be waiting to hear even more great lessons from this experience. Thank you so much for being on.

Thank you, Cy. It's been a pleasure and a privilege. Thank you.

Awesome. Appreciate it. This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman.