S2E28: Guest Lauren Zajac, Workhuman, on Work-Life Balance

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman.

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Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. I have a special treat for you today. It's International Women's Day, the day I'm recording this podcast. You'll hear it about a week after, but I happen to be able to make a surprise visit to WorkHuman. Used to be GlobalForce, but they just keep getting better and better. And I have pulled Lauren Zajac in. She is Chief Legal Officer, and we are talking about being female in the Welcome.

Thank you, Sai. Thanks. Great to be here.

And I love it because I'm just only assuming, to get to Chief Legal Officer, you might have had to break through a few glass ceilings.

Just a few.

Just a few. So I'm anxious to hear some of your best tips for women in the workplace and what your take on all of that is. I want to start out— we had started a conversation about work-life balance, and I know that you've got some of that figured out. So

I don't know that I have it figured out, but, but certainly I certainly have been talking to a lot of my colleagues and especially younger women coming up in corporate America about how I do it, right? I have 3 children. They are coming up on their teenage years. I have an almost 14-year-old and twin 11-year-old girls.

Dang.

And this job is definitely more than full-time. So, how to balance that is something I think about all the time.

All the time. And not only is it a full-time job, but it's international. I mean, you—

Oh, yeah. Back and forth between here and Dublin and London for sure. And the travel makes it even more difficult. I don't— I certainly don't have advice. figured out. But I think one of the things that has sort of come to sit with me where I am now is that certainly you can't be your best in either of those worlds, right? As a mom, as a daughter, as a part of a family, or in a corporate job, you can't be your best in any of those things unless you are trying to be present in each of those. And I think that's the biggest balance. One of the things that I've started to do probably in the last 5 or 6 years is to start my day every day with Meditation. And whether it's 2 minutes, whether it's 10 minutes, whatever I can get in, it helps center me because I think one of the things that I always felt like, especially when my kids were younger, I was thinking about where they needed to be. I was thinking about, you know, who has this school event and what teacher I need to speak to and wasn't present in my job. And then when I was home, was thinking about, right? So I wasn't being my best self in any of those places. And I think it's really a good practice. Meditation is one of those ways that you can sort of center and practice being in the moment. So that as each of the moments of your day progresses, you're more present.

Well, I think that for me, it's such an important concept because one, meditation helps you unhook from your ego. So it gets you away from your stories about how you're failing everyone. But the presence piece is so important because when you are with your kids or family and you're thinking about what needs to be done at work, you're failing and you feel like you're failing. And when you're at work worried about your kids, you feel like you're failing. And so I I love the trick that you're promoting here. It's not really a trick, but a technique to say wholeheartedness is really the antidote to a lot of this, that be present with who you are, be fully successful in the segment you're in, and then be able to move from segment to segment freely. But it's that whole point that when I'm here, I'm going to be great. And I don't have to be everything to everybody, but I want to be great to the one in front of me, the work at hand.

It's interesting that you say that I don't have to be everything to everybody. I think the other piece, and certainly not talking about my age, but I think at this point, after being in corporate America for over 20 years, one of the things that I have done at the same time as sort of this practice of being present in each moment is to let myself off the hook a little.

Totally.

I think, as, yeah, self-compassion for everyone, but especially as women and women who have multiple roles, we are often driving our own selves to be everything to everyone and perfect at all the points. Yeah. And I think, you know, through experience, I've been able to get to a place to let some of that go.

Absolutely. And to be vulnerable and not emotional, like to find other women who just say, you know what, we don't have to be all things to all people. I remember in my 30s, when my kids were little, laying in bed, and the feeling I went to bed with every night for a while was knowing that most of the people in my life were like chronically disappointed in me. Like, like I chronically I disappointed people on a daily basis of things I couldn't get to. And I really let time decide what went undone instead of me really putting in some boundaries and saying less yes often, but also just letting people know, like, here's what I can do and here's what I'm not willing to or can't do. And, and that it can, it can be my standard, that it doesn't have to be like my kids are, you know, perfectly dressed with perfectly packed bags.

Absolutely.

And their sandwiches cut in little,

you

know, shapes. But it took a while to get vulnerable with other women. Because I think when we first came together as working moms, we all kind of lie about this facade, like we all have it together. And I remember the first mom, like I walked in on in the bathroom, and she's like, tears in her eyes. And I just thought, oh my gosh, I was comparing my insides to other people's outsides. And everybody looked like they had their ducks in a row.

Right, of course.

And so I love that, be present. You know, and just be— have realistic standards. It's not even about lowering your standards. It's about being realistic with your standards.

Being realistic and sort of letting go of the facade that you can do everything and be everything to everyone. But I think your point is important. I mean, the other thing I talk about a lot here, especially with all of the folks that are involved with our women's network, is about sort of, to your point, supporting other women. Right, letting people— letting down that facade so that people can see, especially as in my role, right, I've got a lot of visibility. And folks are constantly— women are constantly saying to me, well, it looks like you have everything together, right? You have 3 kids, and you have this great job. And, you know, then I say, okay, let me just tell you what— how my day started and the whirlwind and the hecticness and that we barely made the bus and all of these. And it just— you can see other women sort of sigh and say, oh, well, that makes me feel so much better that— Absolutely. What I'm seeing, that this— what seems like a perfect facade, it's the same all across the board. And I think the more we tell those stories, and the more we share, and to your point, be vulnerable with other women, it just— we all have to be there for one another.

We really do. And the thing about it is, is like, when we don't share, we end up with drama or emotionality, which then we have shame and embarrassment about, because we don't share for so long, and then we break. And when we break, those are the times it can hurt kind of our credibility or reputation at work. And it should hurt because it says you can't care for yourself and you aren't you aren't discerning and setting good boundaries. Like, I don't want anyone to, you know, be harmed by the fact that one day they just lose it, but I want them to be accountable to the fact that there were some things that they weren't doing along the way that led to that.

Mm-hmm. Agreed.

And keep things conversational. You know, I talk to people about work-life balance is not like a math formula that you can figure out, and it's not even trying in a day to manage tasks. It's not external, and the comparison isn't external. It's really about managing your own energy. Like, work-life balance is a verb. And it's just like if you're working on your balance in yoga, you have to make all these minor adjustments all the time throughout your body to stay afloat. And it's not intellectual as much as it's whole body. It's like your signs that you're out of balance come from your feeling like you're tipping. Like, and so if you can figure out that, that balance is a verb, it's an active thing we need to do on a daily basis. And that involves a lot of self-reflection.

Well, yeah. And that's where I think that's where the meditation and the camp comes in. I think that the more that you are able to tap into and listen to the guidance that your feelings give you, the better you can manage that throughout a day, throughout the course of whatever you're trying to put on your plate.

Absolutely. So when you're working with women that are coming in newer to the workforce and, and they're asking for coaching and mentoring, and again, it's International Women's Day, like, what are some of your, like, best advice in addition to meditate, be present? What do you have for them? Career success. What have you learned in your career?

I think the one thing, you know, I came into what was a very male-dominated kind of role more than 20 years ago. And not only did I sort of struggle with, do I have a place here? But I struggled with how to find my right voice. Right. I think a lot, especially early on when, you know, '90s and 2000s, early 2000s, women were coming in and sort of thinking they had to be aggressive and assertive. And like the men. And I certainly did that, right? I fell into that trap. Absolutely. Especially as a lawyer, right? You want to be the bulldog that they bring in. And then that—

I was even advised, like, don't bring your purse to a meeting and take up a chair with it. Like, because men don't carry purses. Yeah, it's like, how can we be more male-like, which isn't contributing to the entire solution?

It's not. So I think, you know, I struggled with that. And I think sort of where that has evolved for me is to Be who my authentic self is, right? Figure out a way to own my own voice and figure out how that fits into the mix. And so, I guess the advice I give to women coming in is just to be confident enough, be okay with who you are, and figure out where that fits in the mix. Don't try to put on some kind of persona that you think is going to make you successful, because that's not going to hold you together. It's not going to stand the test of time.

And you're always going to feel like a fraud, right? Even if you get recognition,

right,

you're going to feel like you didn't deserve it because it wasn't who you really Back

to that shame and that

whole—

yeah, absolutely.

It's one thing to have some healthy guilt when we reflect and go, oh gosh, I could have done that differently. But that whole shame piece is, is crazy. You know, we see that in HR when we interview people. We see a bit of a gender divide here where when I'm interviewing somebody who is male, they look at the next level job and they're just like pretty naturally confident that they can do it. And when I interview somebody who's female, they're like, they're willing to try really hard. And it's just, it's really funny because I'm like, you know, somebody who's male may have done something similar once, they're like, oh yeah, I've experienced— and somebody who's female did something exactly like it for 2 years, they're like, well, I'm just getting fluent now. And so I think some of the things we try and do as women is help other people feel okay with us. And I've just tried to give up responsibility for how other people feel and just, like, show up. Because I grew up with a lot of messages that it's like, you know, don't brag, or don't, you know, you need to kind of dumb it down. You don't want other people to think you're not likable. And did you grow up with those?

Like in the '80s? Yeah, there's all these— I was always too outspoken, too loud, too assertive, too— right? That's not ladylike. That's the message I got all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So my family even went so far sometimes to say, like, you're not gonna be able to get a husband. Oh, yeah, I heard that. Yeah. My dad— when my husband went to ask my dad for permission to marry me, which kind of ticked me off as a female, I'm like, I'm not property. But he did it out of honor to my dad. My dad's comment was, well, if you think you can handle her— like, I'll never forget that. I'm like, Dad, like, I'm 48 years old. Like, what do you mean? It's like, this is crazy. So What are some ways that, given the environment wasn't just handed to you on a silver platter, and I know finding your voice was part of that, are there some other ways that you were able to either not take in what might have been some aggressions or to not be bothered by or to invite more collaboration or move beyond? Like, do you have some techniques for how you kind of made your way, especially in this legal world?

Yeah, I think One of the things I did was certainly just an extension of that self-reflection, right? I did a lot of sort of self-coaching, right? I didn't— I had— I was lucky enough to have a very strong female mentor early in my career, but then she retired. So, I was sort of at this loss of, well, who do I go and talk to? So, I did find some great other male and female folks that I could bounce ideas off of. But a lot of it was just kind of coming home at the end of the day and really taking an action to not take in those things that I knew were false, right? Certainly have healthy guilt, certainly reflect on what I could have done better. But literally stand in the mirror and say, like, I still have a place here. I'm still okay. I still belong where I'm at.

And that part's not mine.

And that part's not mine. And I think just continually over the years repeating those things, I mean, I still do it today, right? You have a— you get some feedback that, you know, isn't exactly about you or not entirely true. You've got to take ownership of that and say, I'm going to continually set my boundaries, I'm going to protect myself, listen to my internal gut and reject what isn't mine. And just by, you know, constant practice of that, I think that's, that's helped me kind of stay the course and not take on what isn't mine.

I love that. And I think for all of us, you know, setting boundaries, we can kind of go from silence to violence, like from, you know, conversation to confrontation. And it just doesn't have to be that way. There's these just great micro boundaries you can set with whether it's your facial expression or just redirecting energy in a meeting to say, you know what, here's what I would like to discuss next. And to find a way to do that with, um, with just a lot of, of love. Because I think too many times, um, people work to set boundaries, you know, harshly out of their own frustration.

Absolutely. And,

and that's where meditation, other things come in. If I can move from a neutral place that this isn't about you, it's not about me, it just is, and where do we want to go differently? Early on in my life, I, um, had a mentor tell me something so valuable, and I want to share it about setting boundaries. I was setting a lot of boundaries for other people. I'm like, I need you not to say that, or you not— or I need you to advocate, or I need you to change the way you do this. And she's like, you know what, not your business to set boundaries for other people. Set boundaries for yourself and how you're gonna take action. And it made so much sense because it was like, you know what, if we're gonna move in this direction, then I'm gonna you know, excuse myself and go work on, you know, another project that, you know, I, I think I can find success in. And that was so important to me because I used to want to set boundaries to control my external reality. I set boundaries for what everybody else needed to do to make me feel okay.

Mm-hmm.

And I just started setting my own boundaries, and those natural consequences then really better shaped behavior than me telling people what I needed or wanted from them. It was just more about, um, here's where I'm gonna spend my time and energy on, here's what I'm gonna be present for. Here's what I'm going to be quiet for or not for. And it just changed everything.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. I mean, it's certainly one of the things I talk to my kids about all the time, especially in this world with, right, social media. Everyone has phones, really to kind of check in with their internal compass, right? And it goes right along with setting your own boundaries. If you are looking for external things to help you along your path, external conditions, you can't control those things. The only thing that you can control is how you react to something. And how you sort of protect yourself and that compass. So I think that that's the goal, right? Because then no matter what happens, you can sail through it, make a different decision, as you said, to work on a different project, or figure out your way through some sort of difficult situation, but still have that internal, like, this is how I— this is the path I follow.

I think it's so important as women, because on the macro, there are some things that we need to knit together our intelligence and make suggestions for how systems can be more inclusive. And, and so on the macro, we have some things to change. But if on the micro, personally, I'm always looking at my external circumstances and wishing for them to be different, my better path on the micro is for me to become more skillful and able then to move more skillfully through any world, which gives me a lot of freedom, right? You know, as I worked with people back when I was a counselor, I worked with some folks that were beyond an abusive relationship. So in an abusive relationship, you kind of lose your whole center, your brain chemistry changes. I mean, it's really hard to make great decisions, you get into a dynamic. But I'm talking about way beyond, when they really want to build the next chapter in their life. And they would come to me and they would say, you know what, Sani, I just don't think I can trust— in this case, there were women who partnered with men— I just don't think I can trust men ever again. And they like wrote off like this half of the human race. And it was men were this way. And I said, you know what? I said, then you really are gonna have a dismal future both at work and at home. Like, if what you value is a relationship with men and you can't trust men, I said, what if you reframed that and came to realize that said it might be that you can't trust yourself around men. And that is, that's a place you can have impact. Like you could grow your skill set to be more assertive, or when you're out on a date with somebody and they scream at the food server to not take a second date from them. Like what if you could grow your skill set? That way you can trust a lot more people if you trust yourself around them, and you can wander more freely in the world. And I see us as we talk about gender and women's issues, and I know expert, I see a lot of times people get confused when I'm coaching them about what needs to change in the macro and what impact they can have on the micro. Otherwise, if we're only looking at the macro to change, we, we really continue our dependence on a lot of things. And so coaching women for me is always, on the one hand, to say yes, in the long term we need to influence that.

Sure.

But in the short term, you need to quit personalizing, or you need to, you know, have better self-talk, or you need to, you know, be able to say, I That's not where I'm going to focus. Yeah.

Yeah. It's— well, I mean, it's— everyone makes this analogy, but it's like the putting the mask, the air mask on your child before you— right, you can't— or yourself before your child. You can't— I don't think personally, and look, I'm no expert either, but you can't change the macro unless you've got control of your own. Yeah. And I think the more that we work as women to sort of be self-reflective and allow us to have sort of a baseline to move through this world. If we, if we don't sort of get that context right, and then be able to help on the micro, all of the other women that we come into contact with, then I think the macro is going to have— it's going to take a longer time to change. I think you have to address it that way. Certainly not saying that macro things don't have to change. But if we don't have that level set, and if we don't own our own voices and help those around us and support women around us, then the macro change isn't going to really make any difference.

Especially that self-care piece, because then we don't show up as credible witnesses. Well,

that's, that's

the other thing, you know, it's like, you know, as a lawyer, you've seen those cases where it's like the person who has great information shows up and isn't credible, because it just doesn't look like they've done their own evolution, their own work. And, and I just really believe we talk a lot on this podcast about evolving and human evolution. And if we want to evolve together, we have to evolve individually. And so I just call women up. And I love what you said about, you know, women supporting women, but calling yourselves up first to greatness and really figuring out what that's like for you. And then remembering that every one of us that is in a position today, I believe, got here because we were brilliant and privileged in some way.

Mm-hmm.

Somebody helped us up, somebody. And so if you're already in a position, I want you as an assignment— I always give assignments— I want you to think about, yes, you worked hard and you were brilliant, but there were some things some people did for you. And really identify what those are, what led to your privilege, and then go create a privilege for another, like pay that privilege forward and, and, and go deep on this because, you know, I grew up with a story of I was the first college graduate and I was this, and I really thought I created my way until I met how many people didn't have even the same privilege I had of having, you know, food on the table and parents and a guidance counselor who helped me get to college. And so I just want to leave folks with that. Women, reach out and support women and really do that well. And then if you have dropped out of a conversation with men in your life about these topics, be careful of your own ego and righteousness and judgment and really step out of that judgment and get more skillful to reunite those conversations. And let's figure out how we can, you know, really move forward in evolved ways. So I'm so excited to be here today doing this podcast on site from Work Human in Boston. If you haven't heard the news, Global Force changed their name to Work Human. And if you haven't heard about some of the amazing work they're doing, their International Women's Network, Um, they're just a force to be reckoned with and enjoyed. So thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

And is there, um, any, um, place that if they wanted more information that they can go? Um, is it, is it to the public eye? Is there an International Women's Network?

So on our, our workhuman.com website, we, we have a blog and a section for our Women's Network. And certainly we have lots of great things happening. So there are videos and there are resources there. I, and I would encourage everyone to

I love it. And I know a lot of you out there involved in leadership and HR, and you're wondering what are some of the progressive, cool things you can do to build communities around women in your workplace. And GlobalForce might be a great best-case practice. They just do so many things well when it comes to making work human. So thank you.

Thanks again.

This is the No Ego Podcast. Welcome to the podcast where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.