S2E32: Kate Northrup, Do Less to Have More

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. Listeners, as promised, I bring you people that help me evolve, who are writing great things, who are looking at life in an evolved way, in my humble opinion. And today I'm bringing you Kate Northrup. She has just just come out with a fantastic book you're all going to want. It's called Do Less, and it's a revolutionary approach to time and energy management for busy moms. But I tell you what, dads out there, you need to read this so that you can better support and understand this. Kate, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

Congratulations on another great book. I loved your last book, um, Money: A Love Story, I think it was.

Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was a long time ago.

It seems like it, right?

It came out 6 years ago.

But you've been a little busy. I saw one new daughter recently.

Yeah. Yep. She turns a year today.

Oh, give her a happy birthday hug.

I will.

And I know that I think you have another daughter as well.

I do. 3 and a half. Yeah. So a 3 and a half year old, a 1 year old.

Perfect. And just in the, in your spare time, although you talk about how to move with your own energy and make some things more effortless in your new book, Do Less. So I'm just trying to think where to get started. For me, I just want to tell you, I speed read the book in preparation for our work, but I loved the book because it wasn't about doing more or leaning in or, girl, you can have it all. It was just about, you guys, this is broken. We could do less and be more and have more. And I loved it.

I'm so glad. Well, thanks for reading it.

Yeah. So how do you describe this new birth of a book to the world? It just came out, right?

It just came out last week. And well, this book is really the antidote to the push harder, hustle more mentality that is plaguing our culture, especially in, um, leadership and entrepreneurship and corporate circles. This idea that if we want better results, we have to put in more hours. And the truth is the data actually doesn't prove that. The data shows that what we need to do if we want to improve our results is take more breaks, do fewer things, and, um, chill out actually. And then we'll get better results. So I learned that by accident because I, when I got pregnant with my first daughter, I was so tired that I could only work about half the amount of time I had worked prior. And then when we had her. She was, uh, pretty sick the first year, and I had postpartum anxiety and insomnia, and, uh, we only had about 10 hours of childcare a week. So it was a very difficult year. And as a result, my work hours, um, got cut again. And yet my husband and I didn't have, he didn't have paternity leave. I didn't have maternity leave. We run our own company and we needed to have the same results. And what was so amazing to me is that a year after her birth, we sat down and realized we had made the same amount of money that That year despite working less than half the amount of time. And so I thought, well, then what the heck was I doing all those other years if I could have made just as much money working half as much time? And so I basically went back to look at, well, where's the data that supports this? How can I codify what I experienced? How can I, um, practice this with other people? Is this something that was unusual to me, or is this something that other people could experience as well? And of course, you know, spoiler alert, everyone else can experience this as well. I'm not particularly special. But that's really where the book came from.

I love it. And that you discovered this accidentally, it's so counterintuitive. Um, I myself just this year by accident scheduled some incredible trips with my own kids and we're having the best year ever. And I'm working, um, far fewer hours and I've learned this lesson, but only about 28 times in my, um, career. But the science, whether it's David Rock or Scott Halford I had on the podcast, talks about only working your brain in these kind of 20-minute intervals. Mm-hmm. But universal principles of ancient times talk about this. I do Transcendental Meditation, and Maharishi Mahesh talks about how things become effortless and you actually put in so less of your will. And once you're kind of in the natural flow of things, things are gonna happen whether you're hustling and working hard or not. And that's so counterintuitive to our ego and this hustle and bustle of the world. It's just, I'm sorry that you learned it, um, from some tough times, but I love that, that you've learned it in such a way you can preach it to

the

rest of us.

Well, and that's what tough times are for.

They are. I just was reading, um, something, um, the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu did an interview and they just talked about one of the behaviors you can have to have more joy in your life is this ability to use this wider perspective on struggle and strife and how it really is necessary for these great, beautiful breakthroughs.

That's cool. I love that.

And I love that. And I have found each one of my kids brought me an incredible gift. Like,

yeah,

each one of them brought me this big thing to open. And sometimes they brought it as babies. I— to my first one was a little preemie guy and just a sick, sick man. And we had lots of midnight trips to the emergency rooms and I just, as I read your piece, I just remember the sleep deprivation, all the advice you take from others that doesn't necessarily work, but you doubt yourself. And I just love the gift she brought to you.

Yeah. Yeah. I, it is so true. I mean, gosh, you must've really experienced this with 8 children. I've only had 2. So, um, but they are so wildly different and I do believe our children are here to teach us, not the opposite. And, um, it's incredible how. They just, they change us and they shape us if, you know, if we're open. And I, I've learned a lot from Dr. Shefali Tsabari, who wrote the foreword to Do Less, um, the author of The Awakened Family and Conscious Parenting. Um, just really about how it's our job to lean back as parents and let our kids be who they are and not try to mold or shape or You know, fix them.

Yeah. And in a way, doesn't that then, um, get us to accept who we are?

Yeah, totally.

You know, if we're focused on accepting them. So, you know, a lot of my listeners, um, so there's many, many women in my, um, audience and, and some, you know, have made the choice to have kids and others, if it's not a kid, it's pets and family responsibilities and we're taking care of parents. And, um, and there's also many people in HR that are really needing to answer up to some of the things that aren't working in our current— in our current work life and life. So I would love to unpack this kind of set of lessons you learned and then went to the research for. But there's a big movement, if not going on, being called for from our world about, you know, a whole doula economy. So many people are so worried about being replaced by robots and everything else. I'm like, bring it on. Um, but you wanna speak a little bit towards some of the insight you gained into this philosophy after you made this kind of intuitive discovery?

Yeah. Well, what I found is, you know, when I did dive into the research, um, what I found is that, you know, and actually, of course, this is not surprising. The United States is not leading the charge when it comes to innovating the way we work. Um, you know, we're pretty obsessed with the individualistic, like every, you know, I'm gonna get ahead. And I'm gonna have to do everything myself and wear, you know, wear my suffering like a badge of honor. Um, but other places are actually making waves. Like in Sweden, they are moving, um, nationally towards a 6-hour workday because what they're finding is that companies who are making that leap are able to be just as productive because by reducing the number of meetings, by reducing, by spending no time on social media and just getting down to it in the 6 hours they have a day, their workers are getting just as much done and there's far less absenteeism and far less, um, basically drama. You know, you talked about, um, the HR department, obviously, like working in companies, there's a lot of drama. There's just like people issues and politics and, and that's actually reduced by being incredibly focused and actually, believe it or not, by reducing our number of work hours. But at the end of the day, it doesn't. negatively affect the bottom line. And that's what's so fascinating. Like taking 10 full hours out a week actually doesn't decrease results.

Well, you know, what's funny about that is, so, um, we are just meeting for the first time. I feel like I've known you, I've read both your books, but my research is on how I've actually been able to quantify the amount of drama in the workplace. And it's 2.5 hours per person per day. And so when you say 10 hours, that really links in with what I have found. to be about 12 hours a week of just drama.

Really? Oh, that's fascinating.

Yeah, it's emotional waste. It is, um, you know, just ways in which our ego takes over. And, you know, when we start buying into and believing that nothing— you know, all these adages, like, if you didn't work hard for it, you know, it's not yours. And, you know, there's no free lunch. And the more mature I get in my career, I realize, you know, but for the grace of God, If God go I, and there's lots of free lunches served up to me, um, whether I show up or not, because there's, you know, I've had to learn to receive help. I've, I've learned to give a lot of help and I just, there's so much support for it right now, but we're having a hard time buying it in this country.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think that the, the companies that are going to be the most innovative and, and we work like this in our company, um, we actually just reduced our work week as a, over overall as a company and we We are noticing just tremendously reduced amount of stress and no drama, and we're getting just as much done. And then we have time for our families, we have time for exercise, we have time for side projects because I don't think that we, any of us, whether we run our own company or we work in a job, none of us are just You know, we have outside passions, whether it's knitting or rock climbing or, you know, axe throwing. I mean, I don't know what people are into, but, but I, I think that that idea that, um, we should only be focused on just the thing that makes us money, um, it, it really actually hurts our productivity in the long run.

It does. And, and I don't try not to have any regrets, but I'm a bit older than you and I grew up in the era that, To contribute the gift you brought into this world, it would be easy to fall into this trance of, I need to be very much like the men who have gone before me, or I'm trying to be equal to. And when I look back, I'm like, gosh dang, I wish I had spent less time trying to be equal to the wonderful other gender in our lives.

Yeah.

And more time bringing this level of women's wisdom to the workplace because they too need a break. And what I loved about what you presented in your book was really getting in tune with, I guess, women's wisdom. Everything from, you know, what our natural way of the world is, or I think you called it egg wisdom or something awesome. Which is, you know, it's daring to start talking about egg wisdom and moon cycles and in a very You know, mainstream book on a, a very, you know, challenging topic.

Well, I love that you call that daring. I mean, to be honest, like, I just don't think we can't not talk about it because we are all like women. We are living in female bodies. And so our anatomy, our hormones are impacting us every day. But unfortunately, the entire field of productivity has sort of forgotten the fact that we live in bodies. Now there's this whole biohacking community, but all that data is based on men.

Yeah, it really is. And so much is. And I mean, I remember, um, you know, hiding— of course, my oldest is 27, but I remember I was on a big project and I came back secretly 2 weeks after I gave birth and hiding him under my desk and being asked by security to take the baby outside. It was like winter and just, you know, you hide that you're nursing, you hide, you know, you With my first one compared to— and before I gave birth to him, before I got through a wonderful marriage, but just how much kind of let me tuck that whole part of me away so that I can perform and prove. And, and I luckily had a lot of good background, whether it was A Course in Miracles or some Buddhist stuff that helped me keep some of that alive. But I still did way too much kind of ignoring, hiding. Um, and, and I just love that you kind of out that. Yeah.

Well, because I think it's actually our greatest gift is, is, is kind of like our cyclical nature as women and the wisdom inside our bodies. And if we would follow it instead of hide it, I think we can get a lot more done and be, be far more powerful, um, in our lives. And so it's, it's like incorporating it as opposed to pretending it doesn't exist. And, um, I guess that is kind of revolutionary.

I love it. Instead of succeeding in spite of it, using it as the fuel.

Succeeding because of it.

Yeah, exactly. Totally.

And I think, you know, I will say that's one of the downsides of more mainstream feminism is, you know, certainly in the '70s and '80s, as women were more and more being welcomed into— well, maybe not welcomed into, but entering the workforce, you know, certainly my mom's generation, the assumption was that if a woman was taking a place as a lawyer or as a doctor or in a higher level of leadership, that she was taking the place of a man. So she needed to prove why she could be there instead of them. And, and, and that by nature, by its nature, required cutting off anything that would, that would identify you as female and as feminine, because that was seen as, as the problem. And so I feel like we're just sort of righting that at this point and bringing the feminine back into feminism.

I loved it. But I also love that, um, and we're going to talk about your experiments that you call people to do in the book, that it's not even just, you know, whether it's a hormonal cycle, um, but also just the, the cycle of things. I really related when you said, you know, after you wrote your first book, you felt, um, some pressure, internal or external, like, what's your next big idea? And it's like, well, those things don't really come on command. You kind of have to just You know, trust that there's some winters in life. And I remember feeling that too after I had my New York Times bestseller. I think it was published like 2 days, my publisher was calling me like, so what's the next thing? And I even said to him, I go, that's like asking a woman who just—

Yes!

Delivered a baby and went through labor for an entire year, like, what's next? And it felt— that was one moment I thought, you know, my books were successful because they really organically came out of who I was, what I believed, what I lived, what I researched. But I can't just turn them on, um, as like an externally produced thing. That's where I lose my authenticity. Mm-hmm. Um, but I related to that as you talked about just learning respect for the cycles. And that's kind of— you wanna talk about your experiments in the book? You call us to do some experiments that there's just such wonderful, um, ways to discover the philosophy you're promoting?

Well, I do get some, you know, every now and again I get some— well, not even every now and again, about every day I get some pushback about the title Do Less. And the reason I posed the tools that I'm offering as experiments is because I don't want you to do something unless it works. I am about ROI, like I want results. I'm a very practical person. And so Yeah, I'm talking about moon cycles and yeah, I'm talking about, you know, delegating things to the universe, but I only do those things because they work in my life. I get results. And so I pose things as experiments. For example, um, experiment with tracking your cycle or tracking the moon cycle and see how your energy ebbs and flows throughout the month as it relates to a, a predictable cycle and just experiment with it and see if in fact it saves you time. See if in fact you have more energy. See if you get better results. And so I give 14 different examples of things that are very, you know, that you can try. And I tell you exactly how to try them so that you can see for yourself what works and what doesn't work and begin to do less to have more in a way that you can point to and say like, I did this and then I saved 5 hours a week or whatever it may be.

And that's what I love about it because, and we'll talk about something different than moon cycles. I don't wanna scare people off, but however, I remember the first time that I was so upset about something and, um, my husband at the time just looked at me and he goes, sweetheart, this will just be really different for you in 3 days. And how mad I was. I'm like, He's like, well, I've been with you for 8 years. Like, I know that. Don't you know this? And he's like, you just fight and fight and fight when you should just go, go to sleep. And then you'll be amazing in a week. And life isn't over. And our children aren't going to grow up to be juvenile delinquents. Yeah. And everything's fine. And I remember being mad from an ego standpoint that he knew that because it felt like a vulnerability. Like, like there was, you know, some days out of my life that I wasn't up for the charge. But I— we talk about, um, in our philosophy a lot about don't take my word for it, try it on for yourself. Yes. And I love that, um, the way in which you teach there, it bypasses the ego. And it's not, I have found the way and everybody else, you know, needs to follow me, I know. It's kind of from beginner's mind to say, you know what, here's some, you know, cool things I've learned. If 2 of these 14 you know, shave something off, you know, of the time you spend and that you can be present and more fulfilled, you know, go for it. And that's what I love about what you're bringing to the table, is it really at the end of the day, it is measured ROI. It isn't just, you know, let's feel better about this. It's like this can really help. What are some of the other things? Because, because I really know that You're about like, how can we be ambitious and really bring our gifts to the world without burning out? And what were some of the kind of things you learned or tips you can give others?

Yeah, well, you know, I'm sure that learning about the 80/20 rule is not new to your audience. Pareto's principle that 80% of our results will come from 20% of our activities. But what I found is that I had not ever found a practical application of that. Like no one could give me an exercise to actually come up with a list. Of what the 20% were. It was more theoretical. And I literally, I wanted a list. And so I came up with an exercise and I'll give it to you right now. It's also in the book, you know, a more, a more fleshed out version. But as you draw a line down a piece of paper, and this is in the chapter, the experiment called Check Your Vitals, you draw a line down the piece of paper in the middle and on the left-hand side you write the tasks and activities that you do at work. And on the right-hand side, you write down your biggest wins. So, whether it was a promotion, an opportunity to lead up a really cool project, you know, a new gig that you really were so excited about, whatever it was, and make a list of them. And then draw a line from the wins to the task, to the activity that directly related to that win. And it will become very clear very quickly, what are the activities to be focusing more of your time and attention on, and what are the ones to be scaling back on? Because most of us go through our workdays having zero consciousness about what we're actually spending our time on and if it's leading to the results that we're looking for, because we've just been so enculturally— enculturated to believe that being busy equals being valuable.

And it was amazing how it really got me in touch with intentionality. I loved that exercise. And in fact, um, when I did it in, in And I've heard 80/20 1,000 times. I've done Stephen Covey's, you know, what do you value and what do you spend time on? And then you can do that, be chronically disappointed in yourself that you value health and you haven't worked out for, you know, 12 weeks.

Yeah.

But when I did that exercise that you recommended, I set an intention. I'm kind of an introvert, so I set an intention about a year ago that I'm gonna take a risk every day. Mel Robbins talks about that. And I am gonna reach out and try and network with more women instead of like I'm on the road 5 days a week, a lot of days now. And instead of just like going to my hotel and flying on to the next city, I'm going to linger some places. I'm going to strike up some conversations. I'm going to ask for help and really receive help. And when I looked at that, the risks I've taken with this podcast and just other places of just reaching out to incredible women have opened up doors. That's not why I did it, but it's just— It has got me involved in so many incredible things. And if I'm not careful, that would be what I spend the least amount of time on.

That's what's so true, right? Because it's not on fire. That, you know, your relationships, generally speaking, especially new ones, are not on fire. But I found the exact same thing, that it was those relationships that I had kindled over time and put small investments into that had led to the biggest Now, of course, just like you said, I didn't do it because I was looking for something. I did it because I genuinely love feeling connected with people.

Yeah.

But it's had this really cool side effect. And so now, just like you, I carve out time every single week for that, even though it's not on fire and it's not an emergency. But the, the benefits are tremendous. So I love that you pointed that out.

It was fantastic. It was so counterintuitive for me when I looked at drawing those lines. I'm like, oh my goodness. Goodness. Um, because it doesn't seem like hard work. Like, I love connecting with people. And, but, you know, I'll just say, hey, we haven't talked in a while. What's up? And they're like, oh my gosh, it's weird you called. I can't do this thing. And I gave them your name. And I'm like, what?

Oh, wow.

That's so funny. Yeah, it's, it's really amazing. And, and you talk about managing energy from that and intentionality. And, um, I talk a lot for leaders and people at work that you don't really manage people. You manage the energy of our interactions. So you manage energy away from like why we can't and why we shouldn't have to, to how we could. And I talked, you know, about if you're an evolving person, you come to work just really ready, willing, and able to manage your own energy. And so I loved that part of your book as well as you talked about the energy management response— not responsibility, that sounds too much of an assignment, but Mm-hmm. Of if you manage your energy differently.

Yeah, because when we do manage our energy and we respond to the reality of our energy instead of trying to push through all the time, what ends up happening is we experience having more time. It's this crazy thing that it really works when you, when you, when you focus on tending to your energy instead of tending to your time, you have more time than you need.

It is interesting because intentionality and wholeheartedness, it's almost like time expands.

Yeah,

when you're intentional and wholehearted. And but, but that's the case. If you have 5 minutes to clean your house, it takes 5 minutes. If I have all day to clean my house, like, it takes all day. Yeah. And so that, that's just very, very interesting. The, the whole ability to receive help and delegate to the universe are 2 other concepts I think a lot of people struggle with. Women and new moms and And you really struggle with being willing to receive help. What, what would you have us know about that?

Yeah, it's such an important one. I think that there's a, you know, it's part of our culture that we are trying to prove somehow that we can do things on our own and we don't need help, that there's some inherent value in that, that we're sort of getting off on being fine by ourselves. And the truth is no one is fine by themselves. Um, and so if, if you're sort of masquerading as not needing help, You're only hurting yourself and the people around you because when we, when we try to do everything by ourselves, we end up burning out and really low energy and snapping at our kids and snapping at our spouses and not, not as present at work. I mean, really, everybody suffers when, when we, when we reject help. So something so simple that we can practice, this is one of the experiments, is when somebody offers, to help you, say yes. So just practice, instead of the automatic response of, oh no, I'm fine, respond and say, that would be great, thank you. And it can be something so small, like when you're holding 2 bags of groceries and somebody offers to open the door for you. Even if you actually don't need help, just see what would happen if you received help, even if you don't need it. Because it really changes us on a cellular level. We can expand our receptor sites for receiving help, and it really helps us feel more connected. Um, and then our reserves are multiplied, you know, then we don't hit the bottom of the barrel of our energetic reserves when we say yes. Or let's say somebody says, hey, I'm going to the coffee shop, and you were planning on going later, but they say, can I go grab you something now? Say, you know what, actually, that would be great. And how refreshing, because being on the other side of that offer, it feels really good when you offer help and somebody wholeheartedly accepts. It's this lovely exchange that we thrive off of as humans. But when you reject help all the time, it actually cuts off a potential connection.

It really does. And there's so much science behind it. There's also, you know, just With ourselves, there's a brain circuit that has to do with empathy, and we're empathetic only to people kind of in our circle. And by accepting help, it expands your circle. It actually grows your own compassion and tolerance. And I mean, I call it joining the human race. Mm-hmm. There's so many times that I have had to really just set the intention, I'm gonna accept help. And what it does is it helps my humility and it helps me join the human race. Yes. Because, um, you know, I feel disconnected and lonely a lot when I'm doing everything myself. And what helps me with my ego part of my brain is many times people do it so much more lovely than I ever could have. And so it really gets me in touch with what gifts other people bring to the table. But I see it especially in women leaders, man. So we— when I work with CEOs and I watch how they use their chief of staffs or their support people, Women are far more independent and less receiving of help than male counterparts. And there's actually been some cool studies about that. I wish I was prepared, I would have cited those. But just the many ways that we create our own suffering.

Yes.

We just create our own suffering.

Well said.

Yeah. I mean, I've had, you know, like struggling with bags, just the door example. It's like I refused 4 different people. Can I help you with that? Can I help put that up? Can I help open that door? And And I instead will take this hard struggling way through the airport, you know, fighting my bags and, you know,

and like

what,

like we really have to ask ourselves, cuz I've been there and done that same thing. Like what is the result we're after exactly?

Yeah.

Like how is that better?

And well, and I think a lot of it comes when we aren't, um, when we're so busy, we disconnect from that, that amazing wisdom that if we just sat for a moment and asked ourselves, physically, how am I feeling? What's my heart trying to tell me? What's my head trying to tell me? Like, we have so many answers that we just keep muscling ahead and not taking time to listen to.

Yeah.

It's just so interesting. So when it comes to other ideas you have, or— there's just so much good in your book, I hate to pinpoint anything, but resisting burnout, or I think one of the other ones I loved was editing your to-do list. That's humbling when you actually look at your to-do list and see how much stuff you just put on there because it could be done. I do that when I make lists. I'm like, oh, and then I could, you know, research DNA chromosome. Like, I put that on my list. I'm like, well, I don't have to do that.

No, or maybe not this week. Yeah, you know, that's one of my favorites too, is the streamlining your to-do list, because so often— and I used to do I do this. We make our to-do list as like this catch-all place to brain dump everything we can possibly think of that we might ever need to do or that we ever could do. And that's— those sorts of things belong in idea files or project management software or system. Yeah. Your to-do list, like for— I believe in a weekly to-do list as opposed to a daily to-do list because life is so unexpected, especially with children, that I like to plan on what I'm doing this week, not today. Okay. So that I can leave a little wiggle room and grace. And then to ask ourselves before each item goes down and be ruthless about it, does this need to be done? So like you said about researching chromosomes, like, does this really need to be done? And if it does, fine. But the next question is, does it need to be done by me? So you talked about, you know, CEOs leaning on support staff, looking at like, who else are key players who might be able to do this? They might be your spouse. Like, we were going through a very intense time last year, and my husband was, was quite sick, and I was holding a lot of responsibility. And I said to my husband, listen, I knew that dinner, for example, needed to happen, but it didn't need to happen— I didn't need to be the one to do it. And so I said, during this period of time, can you take ownership of dinner? I don't care if it's pizza, I don't care if it's whatever, but like, I cannot have this on my plate. And of course he was happy to do that. So who else could do this thing? And it doesn't have to be a paid person. It can be somebody, you know, it could be a neighbor. My— I'm already teaching my 3-and-a-half-year-old how to set the table and clear the table. So we can involve other people. And then the last one is, does it need to be done right now? So if it does need to be done, if it does need to be done by you, does it really need to be done this week? Or are you just trying to get rid of your anxiety by keeping track of everything, in which case— case it should go in your calendar or your project management software.

Which I think is a wonderful thing about what you are bringing up in your writing, is the realization of how much we do to ease— a lame attempt to ease our own anxiety, our own fear, our own— you know, and I talk a lot about ego and that ego is very fear-driven, and that a lot of things we get into that empty ourselves rather than than kind of build our energy, um, you know, or kind of trying to just stay away from the anxiety. And, um, you know, and what I love about it is— and I want my listeners to know because I really hope a lot of people, um, enjoy your book— is that it isn't just a list of different behaviors or tips or techniques or strategies, um, that can be kind of shallow, like, oh, I can organize myself differently. Like, what's the— what's the next tip so I can do more? Is that, that all behavior change comes from a mindset shift, right? Where it's like entertaining the thought, what if just through increased grace, mercy, tolerance, um, looking for the helpers, you know, Anne Lamott says just look for the helpers. Like, what if, what about that mindset shift then really makes the behavioral, um, change, you know, just the icing on the cake? Yeah. And that's what I, I liked in how you approached it is, is There's this weird suspicion when I get super busy now, as I've been through this a few times, that I can no longer justify it by saying it's the hustle. It is what's going to get me ahead. It's like, you know what? I'm already ahead. I already have what I want. Like, I can't fall for that like I used to.

It's a lie. You know, I love what you're saying about coming to the realization that you can't tell yourself that lie anymore. And of course, I want to highlight that obviously there's a certain amount of work work and doing things that make us uncomfortable and doing things we don't want to do. I mean, obviously, all of that is also required, but not as much of it as we think. And at a certain point, as you're saying, we do have to be honest with ourselves and stop telling ourselves the lie that this is just what we have to do and that this is just what's required to get what we want, especially after we have had some moments of like, oh, wow, okay, I did that thing and it happened. And I don't have to keep putting my head down and just suffering more and more.

I agree. And I think the exercises you give and the self-reflection that happens can help you be intentional, because I can't say I will still like to take those social risks and, you know, stay and interact with others that I've never met. And it's uncomfortable work, but once I map it out, I realize that that really is the work that is part of creating the magic. Like, I hate sitting at my desk every I really hate it most days to write, or at least to stare at blank computer screens. But, you know, like Elizabeth Gilbert taught us, like, you have to sit there in case the muse comes by and be like an open, willing partner. It makes it more intentional. And even if it's uncomfortable, hard work, a choice, knowing that it's more in alignment. with an inner belief rather than an external kind of lie.

Yeah, and that you can work hard on the right things instead of just working hard on everything.

I absolutely, absolutely agree. So what would you leave listeners with? We've got just a few minutes left. If you could just give us kind of a, hey girlfriend, kind of a cheerleading coaching best idea, what would you leave us Yeah,

so it's really that your value is not equal to your productivity. Your value is inherent in who you are, not what you do. And that the world needs us present, not busy.

I love that— present, not busy. And definitely, we all were sent here for a reason, and it's now time more than ever to deliver on What we, what we came for. Um, Kate, you are a delight. I hope to meet you in person one day.

Yes.

And I appreciate you coming on. How can people, um, besides going out right now, this is an important week, that first week out, and getting the book Do Less: A Revolutionary Approach to Time and Energy Management for Busy Moms. Um, where else can they find you?

Yeah, so over on my website, katenorthrup.com. And actually, if you go to katenorthrup.com/book, there are some great goodies that you can, uh, grab to go deeper with the book, some workshops and things for, for free. And then, um, I'm over on Instagram. That's sort of my main social media hangout spot, @katenorthrup.

I love it. And if you go out there, you can see some beautiful pictures. Ruby, I know, is one daughter, and the other daughter is

Penelope.

Penelope. Awesome. Kate, thank you for being a great voice for all of us, um, out there. I always end, um, with some assignment for my group on self-reflection. So I would love for you to take Kate's challenge where you really look at what your tasks were and kind of what the ROI was, what the magical moment impact was that they had, and just map those and see what you come up with. Kate, thank you so much for being on. I just wish you the best, and I look forward to hearing people's insight as they move through your work. Thank you.

Thank you so much. This was really fun.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman.