S2E37: Marianne Williamson, Love is the Answer

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. This is season 2, and as promised, I am rounding up all the amazing teachers that have touched my life for a moment or a lifetime along with those evolved leaders and trying to just feed your mind some wonderful, wonderful philosophies that can be your anchor points as you work to ego bypass and go beyond ego and create those evolved workplaces we're all working to create. So today's podcast, it's a little bit unusual. I'm taping after the fact this intro because my guest had 20 sacred minutes and I didn't want to waste a single minute on an intro or explaining who she was. And so I thought I'll just tape this afterwards, and you're hearing it before, so hopefully we've got you curious right now. But I will tell you that this is a bucket list. When I was in my 20s, I was introduced to A Course in Miracles, and The Course in Miracles is just what it sounds— a course. And it was my first experience of Getting formal teaching on how to unhook from my own ego and how to see the world in a very different way. Now, the Course in Miracles, if you're not familiar with it, is not something you take and then get a grade in. It's something that you revisit so many times in your lifetime if you're a seeker. And so I've done the Course in Miracles many times. And as I was going through it for the first time, I found it pretty mind-blowing, but also sometimes difficult to kind of stay with these advanced concepts. So a great mentor of mine recommended that I read a book called A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson. And this book has become one of those dog-eared favorite books. I've had to buy multiple copies because I either give it away or it becomes, um, just unreadable. That sits at the bookshelf at the end of my bed. And this book, A Return to Love, is just a way to remind me that every time I'm hurting, every time I'm in ego, every time I feel left out or alone, that love is the answer, that it's an open heart and open mind. Anyway, when we first started the podcast almost 2 years ago, I made a list of people I would love to have just even a few minutes of their time, and Marianne Williamson was at the top of that list. She has been a teacher for me. So after I read this book, I, I sought her out. And there have been many times when I've had some low points in my life that I've literally flown to New York or LA to hear her lectures, which she does in churches for like a $20 donation. And, and through the years, I just have gotten back to where I needed to be with her teachings. So who is Marianne Williamson? If you haven't heard of her, she's a New York Times bestselling author. She's been on the Oprah Show, Good Morning America. I mean, you just name whatever show and she's been on it. She is an activist, not just an author and a lecturer. She's an activist. She started a Meals on Wheels program for people that were living and dying with and from AIDS, and that program has been going on for a long, long time in LA. And, and I really wanted to bring her to you, so I had this on my list. And every once in a while I would send out just an invite to my podcast, and one day I opened up my email and there was a response from her team that she would have 20 Sacred Minutes in Des Moines, Iowa, which I couldn't attend but could definitely call into, and that we could talk and I would have the opportunity to ask her just a few questions. So that's why I'm pre-taping this intro, because I didn't want to waste any of that time. And I was so thrilled that she accepted my invite. Now, between the time of my invitation and as I sent a few requests, she also announced a That she's running for president of the United States as a Democratic candidate. And I am so thrilled about this, not because I want you to endorse her— I'll get to that in a minute, that's not what I'm asking for— but because I'm often asked, when will RBLN, these principles that have helped us so much in our personal life, get beyond judgment and divisiveness? And when Saeed, are you going to take those to Washington? And I always respond that you as a voter can take those to Washington. And I do lots of work with amazing leaders in our government organizations or entities. And what I love most about her announcing is that she really is making a shot at not just running for president, but changing the dialogue that happens in presidential debates from right and wrongdoing and judgment and divisiveness and— She really is anchoring us around who we are in our open-minded, open hearts and what we can accomplish for our nation, like who we really are. And she's bringing not just reality-based leadership principles to the table, but she's really calling all of us to greatness. And I just, I couldn't be more thrilled about how she's changing the conversation. So real reason I wanted to make sure and do this intro carefully is I want you all to know that when you follow me, Our contract is for me to provide you leadership and some life coaching, and I take that very seriously. And so I really try and in my social media not come out with anything outside that contract— political opinions or commentary on current events from an opinion standpoint. I try and stay within my expertise and within our contract together to really respect you and respect that. So I thought long and hard since Marianne had gone on to talk about being a candidate for the Democratic nomination for presidency, because I didn't want this to be a political piece. I wanted this to be an introduction to a profound teacher in my life. And so with that, I have decided I absolutely have to have you hear Marianne's dialogue about who we are as a nation and what a leader is and how love really is the answer. And so I'm joyfully bringing this to you, but I want to be I'm not asking you to endorse her. I hope that you will enjoy the debates because since our taping, she needed 65,000 independent donations to be able to join the debate, and she got those already. But I do want you to tune in and hear how politics could be different if we practice some of our no-ego principles and hear her calls to greater unity. I think that's a great point. Regardless of your political beliefs, I want you to really tune in. And if that's not in your appetite, she has a new book out called I want to make sure I get the title right because I messed it up. A politics of love that I am right now just really enjoying. So all that being said, dear listeners, I'm not trying to influence your vote, but I am trying to influence your thinking and your view of the world. And my favorite quote by the poet Rumi is out beyond the ideas of right doing and wrong. There is a field. I'll meet you there. And I am thrilled that Marianne Williamson is joining the presidential debates to take us beyond ideas of right-doing and wrongdoing to that field where we really can be a fantastic nation that cares a lot for each other and is not divisive, but works together to find innovative collaborative solutions to any issue that we face today. So enjoy this interview. It's fast and furious, but if you enjoy Mary Ann's teachings, we will have links in the comments or the bio where you can find out more about her webinars and her lectures and her writing. Enjoy, listeners. Welcome, listeners, to another episode of the No Ego Podcast, and I promised you I would bring you those people in my life that have helped me on my own path of evolution so that I can bring you lots of great stuff for your workday. And I am so honored— today's guest, you might not immediately recognize her name, but I guarantee you most of you have been touched by an excerpt from her book, A Return to Love. So I just want to give you one line, you'll know who I'm talking about. You remember that wonderful line that says, the deepest fear, our deepest deepest fear is not that we're inadequate, but that we're beyond— we are powerful beyond measure. And you're starting to recognize my guest is Miss Miriam Woong-Sun, and I've been just a longtime fan. I'm so glad to have you on my podcast. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate that. And if you're still not excited, Wayne Dyer, I think, called you light for transformation. So I I know for me that early on, maybe in 2010 or something, I was introduced to A Course in Miracles, and it was mind-blowing to me. And I was introduced to your book, Return to Love. And if I can even just summarize it, it basically just said, apply love to all your affairs and you, you can be healed. Is that an accurate summary of your wonderful message?

Sure is.

So as individuals, we work as no-ego leaders. We work a lot about bypassing our egos and trying to move from, you know, what we call low self and fear-based behaviors to high self. My first question would be, as your best quick advice for somebody who knows they're capable of love and really creating incredible miracles, what is a good technique when we find ourselves operating out of fear? How do we get kind of toggle-switched into that authentic self?

Well, I think it's important to have a technique. There is one truth spoken in many different ways, different religious, spiritual, even secular ways to make conscious contact with the love inside us. I'm a student of A Course in Miracles. I also do Transcendental Meditation. I'm Jewish. So those are 3 seriously big spiritual foundations. from which I draw, but there are many others as well. But they all contain some form of prayer or meditation and a teaching of the actual principles. The principle that you are love and so is everyone else, that that's the essence of who we are, that we don't always act that way because this planet is a very confusing place. And we all get stuck and we all get triggered by the illusions of the world. But that when we remember that who we are is love and who other people are is love and that everybody's trying their best. And if we would be more gentle with each other and more understanding of each other and more forgiving of each other, that miracles will happen. And situations that were difficult can repair themselves and places that got confusing can become clear and places that got stuck can experience breakthroughs. It really is in a way that simple. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it does mean that when we wake up in the morning and dedicate ourselves to love and spend at least 5 minutes in the morning really setting that intention that today may I be love's instrument, may love use me, may love use my hands, may love use my feet, may love use my tongue to speak the words of love. To act in ways that express love, then you have a different nervous system than you would otherwise have. And different kinds of thoughts will come to you than would otherwise come to you. Different kinds of behavior will naturally emerge than would have otherwise. And you will attract more love and helpfulness from other people. You know, the Golden Rule really is a description of how things work. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, because

That's so, so wonderful. We talk a lot about grace, mercy, tolerance, not believing our own thinking and that kind of delusional story. And I think, you know, the truth is, is this isn't something, at least for me, that I've mastered. But it's a place that whenever I'm feeling pain or stress, I can return to over and over and over again. You know, most of us listening to this podcast are not in a place of Yeah. And I think that many of us listening to this podcast have been given the privilege, and it's usually our privilege that have gotten us a role of leadership, at least how things are in our world right now. And as a leader in that privileged position, are there things we can do that will help people move back into that grace, mercy, tolerance, the re-remembering that they are love? And if they kind of move through the world that way, it opens up so many portals and solutions and things we, we might not have seen without those generous eyes or that generous heart. Is there a call to action for leaders to be leading differently, especially in corporations?

Well, the entire paradigm of leadership has changed. It used to be a top-down model where the leader just sat on top and dictated down. But that's 20th century. That's gone. That's over. New paradigm leadership is where the leadership stands in the middle and holds the space for the leadership, for the brilliance of others. And you get performance from others by inspiring their greatness. And you inspire people's greatness by affirming their greatness. To the extent to which you help people believe in themselves, they're going to be more productive. You know, making— intimidating people or making them feel less than or put down just diminishes the value that people are going to bring to you. You bring less to them, they're going to bring less to you. So affirming that there is within us, each of us, unlimited potential through what you say, through what you do, is what inspires all that unlimited unlimited potential to burst forth. And that's leadership.

It's so true. And by now, listeners are really understanding the influence you've had in my life. We talk a lot about leading as a call to greatness, and that our people aren't broken. Our people are, you know, capable beyond measure. And our job isn't what we tell them, it's getting them reflecting on and calling them to greatness and moving out of ego and into you know, self-reflection and just really making sure that we remember they're not broken. Their natural state is innovation, collaboration, just amazing capabilities. And we say that's your natural state when the drama's gone. That's your natural state when the fear is gone. Mm-hmm. And so as leaders, we talk a lot about you don't have to fix people. You have to manage the energy away from why we can't and who's at fault and who's a threat. to how we could. What do we want to create and how can we get there? So I love your, your definition of a modern leader. We talk a lot about modern leadership. You know, when I first put your name on a list that I would love to have a few moments with on the podcast so my listeners can really come to know you, you hadn't yet released your newest book, which I absolutely adore, and it's called The Politics of Love. So, you know, I think a lot of us are in this world today and we're looking at some things we know, and we look at our national landscape right now and we're just thinking, gosh, that's not how leadership is showing up today. But The Politics of Love really are calling us as citizens to action. And then since then, you've announced that you're a candidate for the Democratic Party for the United States presidency. And So I would love to hear your calls to action for us. How can we change the dialogue? How can we have a more modern view of leadership? What are you hoping to get us activated to do? You've been an activist for a long time, but I just was so excited to hear you announce.

Well, you described it perfectly a few moments ago when you talked about leading people away from blame and fear into a possibility, a sense of what could be done and laying claim to the possibility. You know, the possibility of America is the possibility of infinite possibility. That's what this is about, is that anything should be possible for anyone if they work hard enough and put their own energies to making their dreams come true. That's a holy task. It's a mission statement of a country. Our country is like an organization that has forgotten its mission statement. And having forgotten its mission statement, it's just driven by very short-term profit, which is a grasping mentality. It's not a creative mentality because there's no sense of our original mission statement. There's no sense of creative or productive agenda that calls to the group. And that's what the citizen is. The citizen is a cell in this larger body politic. And so I think the first job of the leader is to recall and to transmit that mission statement. When Lincoln said, you know, referring to the Declaration of Independence, he said on the battlefield at Gettysburg, fourscore and 7 years ago, our forefathers brought forth on this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all All men were created equal. Now, he was referring to something that happened in 1776. That was radical in 1776, and it's radical now. But it's just like with one life or one organization or one system, one nation. You have to reclaim that. You know, in the Jewish religion, it says every generation must discover God for itself. This country, every generation has to re-embrace the radicalism and the profundity of that notion that all men are created equal. Now, we've never fully actualized it. For that matter, 41 signers of the Declaration of Independence were themselves slave owners. We have always contained the dichotomy, the polarity between the illumined aspirational principles on which we are founded and the base human instincts by which we ourselves have often transgressed against those principles. But when you see that, and I think that's the job of the leader, to hold the vision, to hold the deeper reality and to hold the vision so that the leader in the 21st century is a healer, because the leader has to be Mm-hmm. One who recognizes where the system is falling short, but not with blame, with love and with inspiration and motivation brought to all the elements and the members and the pieces of the whole so that the whole, the organization, the system, the corporation, or in this case, the country begins moving in the direction of the aspects of our better self or what Lincoln called the angels of our higher nature.

I love that language, the angels of our higher nature. You know, I think that is the struggle, or the reality, I guess, for us as individuals, that we, you know, have just that human condition where we have aspirations, and then there are ways we show up in integrity or not. But I love how you've put that in the concept of how that plays out on the larger scale in our nation and And then in the world, and where the leader isn't about helping side and rule with power and who's right and who's wrong, but the leader is the one holding space for our own reflection on how we could move into just these great places. I think people get overwhelmed. It seems like there's so many issues and so much to solve. And yet I know on an individual basis, That even though it seems overwhelming, there's just these simple acts I can do to return to all being right with the world. And so, are you hearing from people how overwhelmed they are as you're out? You're doing so many conversations across America. I have hope. I believe that we could quickly come together, restore, and move on. But I hear so many other people who fear. That it's just so messed up and we're so far off and we're just— it's so complex that they're losing some hope out there. What's your sense as you're out?

Well, we've had dark times in our history before. We had slavery in this country, but a generation rose up and abolished it. We had oppression of women and generations rose up and with 2 major waves of feminism and the women's suffragette movement. We had segregation and institutionalized white supremacy in this country and a generation rose up with the civil I think we need to, in a very real way, toughen up. You know, everybody's a little too precious these days for my taste. I would agree. People are traumatized by everything going on. You think the people who were walking across the bridge in Selma weren't traumatized? You think people weren't overwhelmed with the enormity of the challenge to abolish slavery? I mean, come on, everybody. Yeah. This— we have weakened ourselves with over— emotionally and emotional overindulgence. A crisis is never convenient. But, you know, there's a saying in AA that every problem comes bearing its own solution. We don't have the luxury of indulging the thought that, oh, it's just too upsetting or it's just too overwhelming. Cynicism is just an excuse for not helping. And whining is not an option right now. We have a very dangerous force in our midst, and it is a force of undemocratic political power that is seeking to erode the very foundations of our democracy. Thank you. And it's like I feel, you know, I'm running for president, as you know. This morning would be an example. Last night I got back into my apartment at 2:00 a.m. and I had to be at a farmers market at 6:30. Well, you know, my human self, oh, I want to sleep, and my higher self is just shut up. Exactly. You took this on, you decided to do this. Get out of bed and take a shower. And then, you know, when I was there, things happened that, that were really wonderful, that really were of use and that were meaningful and were why I'm doing this. I, I think we're all being called now to get over ourselves on a whole new level.

I would agree. We talk about that in our listeners' circle, and the ego wants its preference to trump the potential of what we could bring to the world. And, you know, my comfort, my preference, my psychological safety. And that for us to really, you know, drink the sweet nectar of life, it's a lot about just forgoing our preference in favor of the potential of what we could create together. And, and I love that— get over yourself. We talk about that a lot as far as stepping up.

There is a difference between your appetite and your deepest desire. Too many people act on their appetites at the expense of their deepest desire. And everybody talks about my authentic self, my authentic self. Your particular thought or feeling in, in a particular moment may or may not be your authentic self. It's your authentic feeling in that moment. You authentically feel angry, but the loving you is the real you. That's your authentic self. You authentically want eat all that ice cream, but your deepest desire is to lose 5 pounds. So I think we don't— when we indulge our appetites too much, we don't honor our desires enough. And I think it's the role of a leader to demonstrate the kind of strength that comes from knowing that. I feel it even with my campaign. Marianne, people are supporting you. People are sending money. People are taking this seriously. You do not get to indulge, you know, oh, whatever the whining might be on that day.

Absolutely. In fact, I've been kind of known in the field when people have said, I just want to bring my authentic self to work. And a lot of people in HR, you know, work to engage people, but engagement without accountability creates entitlement. And I've said, you know what, it's not authenticity.

It's self-indulgence.

And that's why I say instead of bringing, you know, your whole self to work, bring your most evolved self to work and your most evolved self home. We really need you right now.

And your evolved self is your authentic self. You know, the Course in Miracles says you have an authorship problem. You think you authored yourself. You either authored yourself or God authored you. That's the spiritual perspective. And the self that you authored is, you know, we've all been through what we've been through, we're triggered by what we're triggered by, we're not perfect human beings. And so to the extent to which we identify only with the small, separate human self, then in any given moment, we might authentically be this or that. But when we, you know, enlightenment is the journey to a different self-identification, a self-identification that is instead of body is spirit. And sometimes that means acting in a way that actually does not feel authentic in that moment.

Absolutely.

It's faking it till you make it. It's, it's realizing that sometimes you can act yourself into a new way of thinking more easily than you can think yourself into a new way of acting. I think of all the thousands of lectures that I gave over the last 35 years. I assure you, I wasn't always in the mood. One thing I am, you know, I have Moon in Capricorn. So I have a kind of— that's one thing I will give myself. I have a kind of steely discipline on that level. You just get up, you take a shower, you get dressed, and you don't indulge, you know, in a place where I wish I could could exercise it more is in the field of physical exercise. The issue is to not give yourself the option, which too often I do when it comes to physical exercise. But when it comes to leadership, the leader has to be someone who is demonstrating a certain level of emotional, psychological, moral, intellectual discipline, whether the leader feels it every moment or not. Now, a level of vulnerability and deep humanity, I think, is appreciated in a leader. But it's kind of like when you go to therapy and there are actually legal issues involved and ethical issues involved where your therapist is expected to respect certain boundaries so that you don't have the emotional stress and burden of knowing too much about their personal life.

Absolutely.

I think the leader has a similar responsibility to leave themselves out of it in certain appropriate ways. I think that a society, a culture that on one hand has come to understand the importance of boundaries in personal relationships, in other ways needs to reclaim some boundaries. And I think when it comes to leadership, that's actually helpful. It does not always serve for the leader to let it all hang out. I

would absolutely agree. And we, you know, talk about a lot of self-regulation, how we've over-rotated on everybody just being able to bring whatever they bring to the table without self-regulating. Am I adding something that adds clarity, or am I adding to the chaos? You know, our time is— I want to respect my time commitment to you. I would love to have one last question, which is, what is your hope and What's your American dream for our nation as you're out there campaigning? What do you think is possible?

Well, everything that you and I have just talked about on an individual level also applies to the collective. And I think that a nation decides who and what to be, just like a person decides who and what to be. A nation decides what are we going to bring to the table? Are we only going to bring economic values to the world, or are we going to reclaim the fact that we have historically stood for moral values and moral leadership? A nation makes choices. That's what policy decisions are: economic justice, healthcare, education, the environment. Policies mean a decision. They reflect a choice of the collective. Are we going to lead with our higher self, or are we going to lead with baser instincts? Are we going to lead with justice and with liberty and with deep democratic and humanitarian values, or is this policy going to reflect what in too many cases these days is a very unjust sort of aristocratic way of being in which only a few people win and at the expense of the many. So I seek to be, as I have developed skill over the last 35 years, I seek to employ that skill on behalf of the larger collective by not only telling the American story In a way that I believe emotionally and psychologically resonates to all of us, but also naming the shadows, naming the problems, naming the deep character defects, the deep injustices, the deep ways in which we have swerved from the angels of our better nature, but in a way that carries such compassion for all of us and for our country that we actually stand in a space of repair. And fundamental healing. So that is what I seek to do by running for president. That is the conversation that I'm having in the campaign, is a deeper one about the deeper causal issues of our collective dysfunction and the deeper challenge and invitation that we are given as citizens to rise up in our time and put our country back on track the way other generations have done before. So people can find out more about that at marianne2020.com. And if people feel that this conversation is meaningful for them as citizens, I hope that people will contribute and donate and talk it up and follow me on social media and help me get to those 65,000 donations that I need in order to be on the DNC debate stage.

And Marianne, although I come to my listeners without political agenda, I would tell you I'm so glad that you put that out there. Because what I love about what you're doing is you're completely changing the dialogue right now in politics. And I cannot tell you when I'm— and I speak to thousands of people every year, and the number one thing they say is, why don't you bring reality-based leadership to the government? That's what our flavor is called. And as you were a personal teacher of mine, and I've just benefited so many ways, our family has, from your teaching, when I heard that you were running for president, I thought, you know, this really really is a way to bring what people are wishing for, that we're bringing accountability and we're bringing reconciliation and we're bringing healing and we're bringing expansive, abundant thinking to what could be in the world. And that's why I just am so glad you joined us. And I encourage my listeners— we'll put links in all of the social media we send out around this— on right now, it's too early. You don't even have to decide who you're gonna support, but I want you listeners to decide who you're willing to bring into the debate And how to change the dialogue. And it's, it's really easy right now. It's not an Electoral College, it's a one-for-one vote. If you go out and you can support, um, and, and drive that number to 65,000, we'll at least, uh, be able to bring the conversation you just heard, which I hope is really resonating with your heart, to, um, that debate stage. And, uh, I just, um, would love to see that. Marianne, I'm a fan. I am so appreciative of the courage that you are bringing out every single day. So thank you so much for joining us.

Well, thank you so much. And I appreciate the depth of conversation that you brought to our dialogue. And I, I know that that's where the answer lies, that we all go deep together. So thank you so, so much for having me.

You're welcome. Now back to the campaign.

God bless you, honey. Thank you.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama and entitlement and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.