S2E44: Meliessa Ogrodowski, How We Built a Reality-Based Culture

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. I am so excited to have Melissa Ogrodowski on today. She and I go back about 5 years. She actually was one of our very first participants in the very first certification program But reality-based leadership. But more importantly, she's got over 20 years in the field in HR and training and OD, and she's phenomenal. And she's currently the Director of Learning and Development at one of my favorite clients, Craft Brew Alliance. Welcome, Elisa.

Thank you. So excited to be here.

I just was so excited to get you on the show because every time we get together and we start talking about accountability and its opposite entitlement and how to really bring people into higher consciousness. You always have so many good ideas and techniques and, and takes on all of that. But a little bit about your background so people know what great skill set you have. And if somebody actually has not heard of Craft Brew Alliance, we probably have to fill them in on how many of their beers, your beers, they've been drinking. So,

okay. Yeah. So my background, like you said, has been in human resources. I actually knew from a very young age that I wanted to get into human resources. So it's actually my college degree and have primarily been an HR business partner, a generalist in various organizations, and a little stint of consulting. But then, after I'd been with Kraft Brilliance for a handful of years, our current CEO was appointed in 2014, and he really had set out specific focus that the organization hadn't had before on talent, on development, and on culture. And so it was at that time that I was asked to help lead, you know, the building of a learning culture, learning and development function for the first time here in the organization. So that really sort of changed my path slightly in getting out of the day-to-day and working more on, you know, really building something from the ground up, which has been, I now refer to it as the professional equivalent of having a child, because it's been— The most, absolutely most challenging and equally or more rewarding experience of my, I would say professional life, but because of our partnership with the work you do, it's had significant implications and benefits in my personal life as well. So that's kind of my, the very abbreviated version of my career. And then, yeah, Craft Brew Alliance, people always ask us, you know, if we're an association and how it works, 'cause it kind of sounds like that. But we're actually a bona fide, you know, company, publicly traded, and have an awesome portfolio made up of, you know, wildly successful national lifestyle brands. beers, Kona being at the forefront, and then a lot of just fabulous local brands peppered sort of throughout the country, including Widmer, Red Hook out here on the West Coast, and then recently brought into the fold, Cisco Brewers in New England, Wynwood out of Miami, Florida, and Appalachian Mountain Brewery in Boone, North Carolina. So a really Exciting lineup of just amazing brands.

Very cool company. And, and the challenge when we first got introduced is, you know, as you kind of court, date, and acquire these smaller breweries and you try and bring in those brands into, you know, a really large portfolio and then really bring them to market in big ways, it's not just, you know, 20 folks brewing some great beer. I mean, you really have to pay attention to how are we going to have a common culture and how are we going to have some standardized ways of looking at the world. And that's why I just loved when you guys called. So when you got this assignment to start building culture and you went out there, what were you finding at the time? Because a lot of people come to me and they're like, you know, they talk to me about what's available and how one even starts the process. And some of the stuff that's available just, you know, doesn't always seem like it has a chance of working. But I'm just wondering, what— do you remember back what your experience was like when you first got that assignment? You're like, where do I even start with this?

Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I'll just be candid, it was terrifying. I mean, my background is really in HR operations, you know, but to tackle building learning and development or, you know, a learning culture, you know, my background wasn't necessarily in organizational development and those things. So it was really, you know, for me, at first I was thinking, okay, well, I'm gonna go out and I'd call it 2014, my year of speed dating. I went out and met with as many people in the learning and talent development space as I could possibly find. I was buying a lot of coffee and a lot of beer. That's great. And just trying to pick the brains of people who had, taken on such a significant task. And so that was one of the first things I did. I remember very clearly our CEO, Andy Thomas, saying in 2014, as we were just starting, he said, I know this is a huge undertaking. I just wanna make sure that in 12 months, at the end of 2014, we feel like we can say, okay, we did something, as opposed to, well, what do we have to show for —declaring learning and development is now part of who we are. So he was very clear that he wanted some steps to be taken. They didn't have to be a complete overhaul of anything, but let's just at least progress over perfection. Let's take some important steps and commit to those. So we did. And that's

one of the things I love about him is that he's not one to get kind of stuck in the paralysis where we're going to study this for 5 Because a lot of people out there, when they talk about culture, they're like, oh, it will take you 5 to 10 years. And most businesses, especially ones that are, you know, publicly traded or getting ready to be, don't have that time. Yeah. They've gotta like, like do something and, um, and adapt and adjust as we go. Like, to really— I mean, if you're gonna fail, fail fast, kind of, kind of an approach, which is Really scary because it's such a public movement.

It is, it is scary. And, you know, but at the same time, I guess the good news is we didn't really have a lot out there. You know, there wasn't— there weren't things in place that we had to completely change or do a 180 on. Literally, the only kind of learning activities we had in the organization were around compliance training. And so we didn't even have a learning management system. We certainly weren't offering soft skill professional development or leadership development. So in a way, that made things easier because it was just, you know, about, okay, well, what makes the most sense to start with? And, you know, so that I feel like was actually a blessing for us. But yeah, I mean, to your point, the fact that he just wanted to be able to say, okay, we took a couple important steps, and not go for this perfect scenario was very helpful. And I would add onto that, he also, and his executive leadership team, didn't require that we put a 5-year plan together, which I'm so grateful for because the approach, and people ask me this all the time, so, okay, so you've come this far, what, what, What are you forecasting for the next 2 to 3 to 5 years? And I often say, I'm so grateful to work for an organization that applauds and allows a scrappy approach to this, because what we are clear on, and what I think is a critical success factor in this kind of work, in culture transformation, and trying to affect behavior and language and things like that, is to be very, very clear— on the messaging. Like, that, I think, is so key. What you build around that, you can take time, you can, you can even mess it up and then clean it up and redo it. But knowing what you want your message or your critical tenets to be, that, that will just, I think, catapult success because you just build, rebuild, and stay on that path. So I've really come to appreciate that clarity on message. which has been your work, Cy, you know, the reality-based competencies and the rules that are associated, that having that and putting a stake in the ground with that has just really facilitated phenomenal results for us.

Which is— I love the scrappy approach, and I see people get really bogged down into very traditional OD culture philosophy, and and they, and they don't make the progress, and then people start to doubt the approach, and then they start to switch in and out the messaging, and it becomes like kind of new flavor of the month. And, and so I just really want my leaders— I want to highlight— or my listeners, I want to highlight that where it was like, we are clear on the messaging. We are going to have reality-based leadership as our DNA, and we will come at this 100 imperfect ways. It is dialogue, not directive. It is, um, you know, we— you guys didn't even sign up to be Perfect. And I loved the iterative process. I remember some of our early work together and we were kind of making it up as we go. We met with some of the, you know, the plant managers, the brewmasters, the folks, and we would really, we would teach and then listen and dialogue and adapt. And, and, you know, it was a really imperfect approach that's led to some pretty crazy results. Yes. How do you— everybody asks me, like, how do you measure results of, of, of the work? And I always say, you take whatever results you had hoped for, and if you're using reality-based leadership well, you'll achieve those results. It's not that we have a separate metric always to measure it, but that you'll see it in your, in your numbers. And you guys really know.

That's so true. I mean, and people ask all the time, how are you measuring this? We just had, you know, 30-plus new hires here last week for our culture onboarding, and they asked, well, how are you measuring the success of these tenants? And we say that, we say, we don't think it's an accident that we started this work very intentionally with a lot of purpose in 2015. And in 2017 and 2018, the company reported the best financial performance it's ever reported. Now, Culture is a component of a lot of really good things. Sure. We have good strategy, we have excellent leadership, we have a strong portfolio of brands. All of those things matter, but again, it's not an accident that healthy thinking and the way we hire and the way we coach for, you know, improved and excellent performance, it's all contributing. I don't think, you know, it was funny, we had a really fun, colorful debate about, okay, what got us here? Is it the talent that we have in place? Is it our strategy, or is it culture? And it was like, I— there's nothing to debate in my mind. It's all of those things, you know? And so— Yeah, absolutely. Culture matters. It, you know, it's hard to— it's delicate to correlate with business performance, but I, I would wager that If we didn't tackle this in a big way and continue with an unwavering message for over 4 years, we still may have had good financial performance, but maybe not to the degree that we've had. You know, it, it contributes.

Right. And you're in a market that's really disrupted right now. Yeah. There's a lot of people scrambling for, you know, what you've tried to create. And, and for me, it's like not one of these is going to cause great results, but the lack of one of these is really gonna interfere with great results. Right. Is what I like to tell people, you know, because variance really is the enemy in the production process. And you guys have used, you know, good operational excellence to get rid of variance, but you've also used high accountability to get rid of variance. And, and, you know, flexibility is such a key. Accountability is such a key. And, you know, just the ability to use the word and, A-N-D, in there where we're gonna standardize and yet still absolutely customize. this experience. And a lot of people who are in ego, or what we call toggled on the low self, they can't tolerate the and, or they can't tolerate multiple things being true, or it's like it's all of these and they, they work together. So how have you changed like your, your hiring, onboarding, you know, performance managing processes? Because you have— you guys have done some incredibly cool things.

You know, clarity on message is is number one. And then, you know, the readiness pyramid that you have and that we've utilized, that is real. And I would say that that is a good charter for measuring how well you're doing in an effort like this. So—

I love it. I should just plug in that readiness pyramid is in the book No Ego, but really it is about insisting that people foster their own level of aware— of awareness about where the company's going, what the company needs, what the industry is doing, but that it isn't just knowing the why and where we need to go, that people have to come in with willingness that they're absolutely bought in and come in with the willingness to advocate for where we're going. You can't just be aligned. You gotta be aligned and active and then actively participate in how are we going to make this work rather than focusing on why we can't. Mm-hmm. And eventually driving change in a really responsible way from all levels of the organization, rather than letting change happen to us, really being the drivers, creating and architecting kind of our own future. And you can measure kind of each of those levels, like how actively involved are people, how willing are they, how, how much advocacy they're providing. So that's kind of the basis. You guys have taken that as just a way to think about— Leading people through this.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, I bring that up because, as you know, when we started, we really took, I think, somewhat of a unique approach based on conversations I've had with other clients of yours, that we went to the masses immediately with reality-based. Yeah.

Yeah. Most people— yeah, I'm sorry, most people start with the leaders, and that's kind of a traditional approach. And they're like, well, first we got to get the leaders fluent. It's still kind of cuddling the people. And you guys went— it was a, it was a scary ride, but you went full-on, we're going to the people and we almost are going to drive the question, are you in or are you out?

It was definitely inner-city style. It was sort of like, wake up, we don't need to apologize for who we are. You know, some people just couldn't live with the fact that we have a strategic partnership with Anheuser-Busch. And, you know, so it was, it was things like that, like, no, let's not apologize. Let's be proud of who we are and the fact that these these different components give us competitive advantages. And let's get clear that you have choices, and it's okay if this isn't for you, but we're done with the third option. You know, we're done with staying and resisting and not being on board. Yep. And let's get this thing right. So I mentioned the readiness pyramid because our approach was really, we gotta go to the masses if we wanna get if we wanna make awareness happen sooner rather than later. We gotta go to everyone. And it also was a smart way to go because it provided common language immediately. We can't be everywhere all the time, of course, and so giving everyone these phrases and key kind of taglines, we know that they were used, they still use them with each other to really, you know, peer coach on getting back into the right mindset if I, if I slip a little in a meeting or something. One of my favorite examples was we had a new beer that we were getting ready to bring to market, and so sales had their targets of when they wanted this ready to ship and get to our distributors. And so I was in a meeting with a bunch of operations leaders, and someone in the meeting said, 'Cause it was an aggressive timeline, as it always is, and someone in the meeting said, is sales even gonna be able to hit that sales target by X date? And someone else in the room said, that's not our lane. We've been charged with making sure the beer's ready by X date, so let's focus on that. And that, you know, it's little examples like that all over the place that really started to move the needle, and I credit, you know, going to the masses as a first step step in really helping kind of get this thing off the ground in a, in a big, fast way.

And I love it. Your approach was bold, and it really was trying to activate the silent majority, because when you are working with the leaders, in the meantime, you let the negative employees really drive your employee base. And you guys kind of went out and you said, here's where we're going. And, you know, we'd love to have you with us, but this is really who we are and how we're going to move forward. And it was just like a mutual accountability. I absolutely love it. And I too, when I'm with you guys, hear the language of, you know, I love that. That's just not even our lane. Our meeting right now isn't to focus on whether we should be even doing this or, you know, what, what sales can support. Our focus is what's our role in getting this beer to market as promised on time. Because what happens is you'll come up with a business case of this beer being in the market at this particular time, whether it's spring or summer or whatever. whatever. And then people who don't have the authority whittle away your business case with their opinions. But what you need is to say, here's the business case, use your expertise to deliver it. And, and it's not about denying the big risks, but most of the risks aren't real. They're our opinions. They're, they're what we're supposed to mitigate with our own expertise.

Absolutely. So, yeah, so that, you know, is how we started out. And then yes, we, we went to leadership, you know, in a big way too, and, and held sessions with them, which, You know, you were a part of that and came out and met with our senior leadership in that first 12 months, but to really help them, okay, we've declared a new way, and so here's what that means for you and how you lead and how you coach and how you support. So definitely, you know, I guess you call them workshops and then leadership training. sessions that we would have to, to really support this. But it was then also about operationalizing this, because you can't just rely on a meeting or hearing a presentation, even though the workshops are awesome in, you know, facilitating reflection and where I am in all of this. But you can't rely on that alone. So we, we learned—

Which is what you did. That was so magical. You guys have sustained this. 5 years now, 4 to 5 years through this operationalizing, which is a big reason I wanted my listeners to be able to hear what you have to say on that.

So it's really— we've tied the competencies and the tenets to all talent functions. So it's, we, you know, I guess an obvious one is we certainly have questions that will reveal Not only is a person, is the candidate inclined toward accountability and internal locus of control, we don't draw a hard line on that, because we also look for indicators and signals that they would love the opportunity. 'Cause there are too many people, at least we believe, too many people that have never been exposed to this, and once exposed, they are so thankful. You know, like we hear just last week, you know, we, we did the Reality-Based Rules workshop and then went and had happy hour, and so many of our new hires, you know, say over and over again, this is so refreshing, I am so glad that this is how you go about things, I'm so ready to be part of this, I'm so ready to learn more. And so hiring, the hiring piece, I think, I think you have to be careful. You can't just say, nope, they don't demonstrate high enough accountability. Some people just don't know that it would serve them in a really great way. So it's not a hard and fast thing. We look for signals and indicators that they could really— they would be open to it and they could really grow from it.

I think that's such a cool thing because a lot of people ask me, like, can we have the accountability questions because I want to thumbs up or thumbs down down somebody, I wanted to predetermine their accountability level. And I'm like, you know, if somebody's an outlier, if they're super low accountable, don't take a risk on them. But mid-accountables can become high accountables. You can move that needle. You probably don't want to invest in taking a low accountable to high accountability. I mean, that, that involves like almost spiritual awakenings. But what I love about it is you guys looked at willingness as much as do they already have it, or could they be molded into kind of our culture. And I think I love that approach. It has some grace and mercy in there where even people who normally are high in accountability can on a daily basis fall from that status. Yes. We all have this human condition. It's the, it's the ability to get there. And that's why I haven't really brought out a hiring tool on accountability, even though we have some questions that would indicate, because we're not We're not trying to mandate, you know, who's in or who's out. We're just trying to identify people that could join us and grow in this direction.

Right, as you say, and we talk about it all the time, accountability is situational. I have, I'm super high in accountability with my role as a mother of 3 children. I'm pretty high on most, not all, work priorities. I got better recently when it came to health and fitness. On, you know, financial, you know, saving for the future, low. Like, it depends. Yeah.

We're a mixed bag.

And if a candidate that we're talking to, if they have come from unhealthy at worst, conventional at best culture, which, you know, conventional is a culture of enablement, Then they just haven't been exposed. And so,

um, yeah, there's some relearning that has to happen. Um, and, and I absolutely agree. I, I often say, you know, we all have this invisible toggle switch on their forehead that we can toggle into low self or high self. What you're looking for in the interview process is if that toggle switch is broken, right? If it's like, if it's rusted down, but other people whose toggle switch works, if they're willing and they show willingness, they can really grow. in these dimensions, especially when they're surrounded by people that won't model that behavior.

Yes, absolutely. So that is an obvious talent function to tie these messages to. And then we also pretty immediately tied our performance appraisal to the reality-based competencies, not an exact mirror or replication of the employee value equation, But what we did do is said, okay, half of the review is gonna be focused on what was delivered, and then the other half of the review is gonna be focused on how you show up, being all about personal accountability, commitment, resilience, ownership, continuous learning, getting neutral, not fighting what is, and getting on board. So we really made sure that if we were out there saying that these things are important, that it was reflected in how we evaluated. evaluate high performance, high impact, or low impact. So that happened pretty immediately, and that may be another obvious one. But then it probably took us a year and a half or 2 years to appreciate that our performance management processes around correcting performance was not reflective of the fact And the fact that stepping into personal accountability is an individual choice. And so—

Yeah, it's a choice based on self-reflection. And I think so many people find that when they bring in our philosophy through workshop or sessions, then they start saying, well, gosh, we could hire differently. And then they start to see where all the places in their, their operations, their HR operations, that send mixed messages that don't marry up to the philosophy.

Right. And that was a big one for us, that the traditional written warning, final written warning, whatever, and the traditional performance improvement plan, we had both of those in place, and it was a really stark contrast to what we were messaging. And so we tackled that, and it seems so simple, but sometimes the simple can be the hardest to implement. But we threw away those other forms and we created, a form that just simply asks the manager to outline what the expectation is versus what's being demonstrated or what they're seeing, what the data is. So basically just asking the manager to outline, hey, we've got a gap here. So that's the goal with that, of course, is to raise awareness for the individual. And then, And we present, you know, the manager and, you know, talent and culture, which is our way of describing HR, might be in the room or might not. But we really, we sit down with the employee and it's presented to them, again, to raise their awareness and kind of have a conversation. Are you, do you see this? And then we literally give the form to the employee for a number of days, you know, sometimes a couple days, sometimes a few days. And in the form are, a pretty healthy list of reflection questions mapped to commitment, resilience, ownership, and continuous learning. And we give them time. Reflection takes time. It takes, you know, you can't be under the gun to do reflection justice. So that's why we give them a couple days with a bunch of those reflection questions. And then we ask them to put together action steps that they think would help lead to their success. And so there's a couple big pieces in this. The first is this space for good, healthy reflection, and the second is the individual employee is putting together their own plan. And we all know that I'm gonna be a lot more committed to steps that I come up with on my own versus those just being told to me without my input. So I think those 2 components have been really key, and man, the results that we're getting from that new process, a new way of, of, you know, talking through performance correction needs or performance improvement needs. It's just been so great. I mean, people are committed to their own success, and when they identify that they are, and correction and improvement happens because it's their plan and they're clear about what they want to do, and it comes together. And we've also had We've had a couple of resignations come out of that process where the employee takes the form, they're clear that, you know, there's something, you know, that's not working, they take the time to reflect, and they come back and say, you know, this isn't for me. I didn't put a plan together because I need to move on. And that's great. It facilitates going in peace with clarity. They're not begrudging of, you know, we leave on good terms. so much better terms than the traditional, you know, putting the paper trail together kind of, kind of unhealthy process.

I just— I'm smiling from ear to ear because what you guys have done is, is just genius stuff. So the principle that we talk about, we know from accountable people that they develop accountability best when feedback is very short and self-reflection is long. And instead of this whole performance management that punches the ego in the face and engages people into a fight or flight and starts the conflict. It's just like this mercy, graceful, peaceful way of, as you said, supporting stay in joy or leave in peace. There's not a third option. You can't stay in hate or stay and not perform. And we don't want you to leave our organization in a way that you're full of blame and shame. Right. And, and so this, this process where it's like like being a good steward of reality and not enabling people. And it's just like, you know, we have some basics and here's the reality that's not currently being met. We'd love for you to do some reflecting on that. And having people instead of the leader build a plan to say, you know, gosh, what's your plan to get on board? Or what's your plan to be able to deliver in this way in order to be compliant? Like, what's your plan is just, it's such fantastic setup for people to be personally accountable. accountable. And, and I love that you guys are really noticing the effects. You know, it's something I've said you've got to, you know, go and present to all HR groups everywhere on, because we all know performance management is broken. We all keep doing the same dumb thing because we cite the legal profession makes us. But I work with so many employment lawyers that they're like, this thing just pisses people off. Pardon my— And it's like, if you didn't have an enemy before, most performance management will ensure you have an enemy now because somebody's right and somebody's wrong and somebody's misunderstood and somebody's a victim and somebody's a villain, which is all ego behavior. Instead of reflect on this and, you know, you can come back and we can work on it together, I'll support you or not, but none of this is a war.

None of this is conflict. You know, no one, no one wants to do poorly. You know, over and over again, what we find, it always comes back to commitment. And sometimes the reason commitment has changed is, you know, something happened to alignment, or the person has evolved in a way where what used to be a great fit isn't anymore, or life evolved in a way that what used to be a good fit isn't anymore. Or, you know, it's, it's good, good, excellent, you know, good performance and excellence shows up when we're in alignment with And, you know, and it's— people aren't bad. Something, something changed, something has evolved over time. And so let's revisit this and see if we can still make it work. And if we can't, then let's, let's go be happy.

And it's without the story. For me, it's so respectful of someone's diversity as well. You're not bad because you aren't one of us. We don't need to prop up our identity by excluding people who don't agree with us. It's this incredible Leaving space for here's where you're at at this moment. And that's okay. There are many ways to do this thing called life, many places to work. Mm-hmm. We wanna keep it clean on our side that if you're here, you're, you know, for the most part aligned and on board and able to commit. And if not, it's not personal. And I think that's such a conscious way to, um, you know, leave people's dignity intact while you kind of move throughout the world. Cuz most of us lower our standards to try and respect the person. And you have found a way to keep the standards high and just know that there's no shame in this might not be, you know, a match for us. It's an evolved way of moving through the performance management process. And, and every time you guys tell me how you've operationalized something new, it just shows me like you're this incubator for evolved HR practices. And, and it's exciting. It's exciting.

Super exciting. Yeah, we're interviewing for a Portland-based HR manager and And so it's so fun to talk with candidates about what it's like to work here and the fact that it is so forward-thinking. And again, it's simple stuff, but surprisingly wildly different from everything we've been taught over the years. And so it's just made such a huge difference.

I just love that you're such good partners with, You know, trying to modernize the workplace and modernize, you know, HR from, from that perspective. And I think the key for evolution is self-reflection. Mm-hmm. And anytime you can take out a power ratio where a leader is trying to prove their case to you that you're not performing, you know, the more they try and convince, the less convincing they're going to be, the more dug in the ego is going to be for defense. And, and, you know, You know, when I was counseling couples way back in the day, there's really 4 kind of— we call it the horsemen that can come in and really ruin a relationship. And it comes from Gottman's work. And the horsemen are, you know, the first one is like— they don't come in any order— but defensiveness. And so the minute that somebody is acting defensive, it's kind of game over. It means that we need to back up and create some space. Or when somebody somebody is critiquing, or the third one's holding somebody in contempt, or the fourth one's like stonewalling where they just aren't even responding. And if you look at typical performance reviews, performance management, those Four Horsemen are there.

Yes.

I, as a leader, I'm critiquing you. You begin to hold me in contempt. You get either defensive or stonewall, which means you just check out, you disengage. Like, that whole model just shows for me, if you've got HR practices out there and you have any of these course, been happening on a regular basis where people, you know, are exhibiting those behaviors, you gotta look at the way you're moving through the world and get more skillful about it.

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true that everything the HR profession has taught, you know, for so many years is the exact enemy of good employee relations. It's, it's just sort of—

That's profound what you just said. So much of what we've taken on in traditional HR philosophy is the enemy have good relations. It really is. And I think that when I came in as a therapist, that was my biggest shock, is the way people were telling us how to lead. I'm like, oh my gosh, we would never teach that in the therapy office. That's not even evidence-based, right? It's an old model that we need to really shatter.

Yeah, yeah. So those are kind of some big, you know, ways we've operationalized. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that another big I think a big piece is making sure that our language is tied, 'cause words matter so much. And so— I'm

so glad you brought that up. Speak towards that. I'm glad to take the time because you guys, we know that words matter, but you guys have really lived it.

Yeah, I mean, from something as simple as renaming our engagement survey. So we don't call it the engagement survey anymore, we call it the annual employee survey, Even in something like that, you say, you put out, okay, it's time to do the engagement survey. Right off the bat, it sends a message that, okay, the employer is gonna fix this for me. And so even in something as simple as that, we, you know, right away, well, maybe not right away, but about 3 years ago said, you know what, we need to call this something different. And all the introductory language that we use when putting the survey out, it said things like, you know, we take this seriously. Please take a couple of minutes to share with us your feelings and opinions. And we were like, no, strike that. Instead, let's talk about, yes, your input is important to us, and we'd like you to take the time with the survey so we can see how aligned you are with our strategy, our direction, where we're going. So all these little words make a huge difference in setting the right tone, setting an accurate expectation of the fact that this is about mutual accountability and all of those things. In our handbook, you know, the section on professional development says things like, first of all, recognize that the best way to secure advancement opportunities here is to rock the job that you've been given Second of all, take ownership of your development. It will not be spoon-fed here. So it's all of these ways of talking that match choice, stepping into accountability, you know, getting in the driver's seat about what I want and making sure I'm responsible for my own success. All of these things get, get tied together.

I just, I love it because what you guys are doing is you're bringing authenticity and consistency to the table and not giving— anytime you're finding these mixed messages, I watch you guys clean them up pretty, pretty quickly. I had another client and they're putting out a survey and they asked people to reflect before they took the survey. They said, because they know the language of toggle up, and they said, now make sure as you bring your expertise to the table that you are toggled up, that you're in a place that you'll be a sophisticated survey taker, Mm-hmm. that you really won't just vent in the form of a survey that you will help all of us understand your data point in this picture about what's working right now and what's not working. And working is creating the results you want and the quality of life we want. And give us some good information about where to focus next, because some people are taking the survey and they're just venting. Everything's crap, right? Right. And so they even invited their people to say, come to this survey-taking process of 10 minutes. Um, from a high consciousness place that you're actually giving us good credible data. And I just thought even calling that time out before a survey, I'm like, dang, I love it.

I love it too. I'm gonna incorporate that.

Yeah, incorporate that. Because they heard me talk, they were like, Sai, you're the one that said this. And of course, sometimes my head opens up and something insightful comes out and it's the first time I've heard it. You know, those moments when you're on stage, but they really took it to the next level. And I thought, that's beautiful.

Awesome.

Yeah. And you know, I give assignments on all of my podcasts for— because coaching never happens without some sort of assignment for self-reflection. And, and I think the place for reflection right now, for those of us that are leaders, is to look at what you want and look at the words you're using when you interact with your people, when you make requests, when you— you know, the most basic one I see leaders doing all the time is they're like, I'm so sorry, I'm asking you to do one more thing. You have so much on your plate. And I'm so sorry, to even call a meeting. It's like, no, great to see you. I called a meeting. It was the best venue I could think of to get information out very quickly, and let's begin. And it's just de-dramatizing your language. It's like getting it neutral and making sure you're not reinforcing victim mindsets in the way we communicate to people. Even like benefits, I hear people go out there and they're like, you know, apologizing, we've made a change to benefits and pointing out how they'll change and how they hope that the employee understands. And instead it's like, we are always balancing the dollars available to us in a profitable business with the needs that you've expressed to us. And here's our best shot at balancing those this year. And if there are things that, if there are needs you have that aren't met by these, please come with us with comments conversation so we can help you find other ways potentially you could get those needs met. And it was just this clean benefits letter. Like, I just want people to reflect on what they're sending out, because as the psychology of the leader and the organization goes, so goes the employees. People rise up to the level of expectations you set for them.

Absolutely. It's so true. So set the right tone and people will— and I, you know, I say this too, just, you know, in my personal life as I look at you know, different families that we're friends with and different, you know, everyone has different parenting styles. And I've really come to appreciate that all different styles can be successful. But what I think is the magic ingredient for successfully, you know, preparing children for the world is having high standards for them. And whatever, in whatever parenting style you use, but as long as that's the central, You know, focus of how you, you know, teach and guide and lead. And it's true at work too. Whatever standard we set will be met. So let's set the highest.

And I think it's so important people know that. And it goes back to the research, the Pygmalion theory, funny name for it, but the Pygmalion theory refers to some research they did where they had a class of students that tested in pretty average. They divided the class up into 3 groups and they gave each group their own teacher. And they told the teacher with each of the groups, they gave them a group and to one teacher they said, this class scores below average, they struggle. The second teacher, they gave them a group of average performers and said they're average. And the third teacher, they gave them a group of average performers and said that they're talented and gifted. And the kids scored that way after—

Accordingly.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, and that's the same work that Carol Dweck And it just, it's proven over and over again, if you set a high standard, it will be met.

Yeah, it really will be. And I think a high standard with a peaceful process, and when you clean up your language, what you're doing is you're setting these micro boundaries and you're kind of guiding people to, we aren't gonna spend energy in drama or energy in why we can't. It's just, this is what's expected. And, you know, in a neutral way, it's setting a micro boundary. Just like when somebody comes in, they're like, we got 3 projects dumped on us and at least leader says, so we have 3 new projects. It just is constantly cleaning up and making calls to greatness, not just with a workshop one day, but in every interaction the employee has with the organization. And, and that really is where the culture hits the road, so to speak, right? Where the culture is tested is don't do as I say, you know, do as I do. And I think it behooves all of us to really take a good look at the messages we're sending on a regular basis.

Yes.

Awesome stuff. What's your best advice to leave our audiences with? What's your favorite part of RBL, or what are your parting words, Melissa, as we run out of time?

I think as a, as a teacher of these strategies and competencies and a catalyst for, you know, a new way of thinking and behaving I just think it's a must that the teacher, the guide, the catalyst go through their own personal struggle. Yeah. And experience with it so that you really can meet people where they are and help them on the journey successfully. So it's, to me, it's definitely something that I take real seriously, and I am constantly learning from my own, you know, falling off the right path kind of, if I get into judgment or I'm fighting something, it always comes back to my own insecurity about it. And then sharing that with people to help them, to give permission that this is, I always like to say, it says easy and does hard. It all makes sense, and we can all sit in a room and agree intellectually, that this is, this is the right way to go, and we'll step out of this room and miss, you know, 5 to 20 opportunities in the next couple of hours. So to me, if you're gonna be a catalyst for this kind of transformation, you gotta, you gotta live into it and help people with their own challenge and struggle with it.

Love it. That's some huge wisdom. You know, our certification train-the-trainer program is really— in fact, we're training champions. It don't even have to be people that get up and speak and train in front of rooms. But we come into organizations, we're having those courses twice a year here in Omaha. And I will tell you that that's what we stress. The number one thing is if you're gonna be kind of a disciple of this work, that this isn't something you learn and preach to other people and then live out of integrity. Now, you won't do this perfectly. It's progress, not perfection. But you've got to work your own program to be working others. Right. when we even, you know, part of our effectiveness when I'm on stage or other people training this material is on stage is we work hard for people coming up with their own stories of self-disclosure rather than talking about what they've seen other people do, because it sounds so judgy and so preachy and so righteous.

Right.

And that's hard. Sometimes people come and they are wanting to get certified and they just haven't done enough of the inner work because, you know, we'll say, well, what's your story to help illustrate this concept? And they'll start telling a story about other people instead of that vulnerable story about themselves. And I think that's what makes like Brené Brown and other people so fantastic and why we've decided, you know, I'm pretty open. I don't share kind of what's intimate to me, but I do share what's private to me just to let people know we all have this human condition. Yeah. And the only way we can walk together on this path is, you know, working our own program. And that's the only way we can sponsor other folks in a healthy way to come into this work. So, Melissa, I have loved having you and the entire executive team and HR team at Craft Brew Alliance as partners. We're starting to see our organizations that have been with us 5 and 6 years really hit different levels of profitability, really. And we don't claim it all because these enlightened leaders are also using all kinds of other business disciplines they can get their hands on. Sure. We're starting to see that no ego workplace as a reality and not a concept. And I couldn't be more proud of CBA for the work that you guys have done and the work you continue to do.

Oh, thank you. And we couldn't be more grateful to have found you and all of your great teachings.

Fantastic. That's what it's going to take to keep this revolution going. So thank you for your tips. Listeners, I hope you look at your language. I hope you look at how you're operationalizing reality-based leadership and, and whether you are or not, and really take a look at some of the cool ideas that we'll be bringing you in future sessions about how people are changing the way they work. So thanks, Melissa. Have a good one.

Thank you. You too.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama and entitlement and transform Your World Place. I'm Cy Wakeman.