S2E53: How HR Can Lead Cultural Change

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to HR Break Room, Paycom's podcast dedicated to having quick conversations on the hot topics in HR and HR technology, one cup of coffee at a time. I'm your host, Caleb Masters, and as always, HR Break Room is the podcast helping you discover how far your workforce can go. And I'm so excited about today's HR Break Room because we're talking from SHRM 2019. That's the SHRM 2019 Conference and Exposition, and we're gonna be talking about a topic that I think is really making its way to the top right now, and that is preparing the workforce for cultural change. So we're gonna be joined by a special co-host, Dickens Aubourg, who is the Paycom Director of Client Learning. Dickens, welcome back to HR Break Room!

I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Caleb.

I'm so excited about today's guest because we actually had her on to talk about workplace drama way back in June of 2017, and we did it over the airwaves, which Which is, you know, always a lot of fun to do things through the internet, but it's so nice to actually get to sit down with a guest face-to-face. So we are joined by Sy Wakeman. Sy Wakeman is a drama researcher, New York Times bestselling author, an international leadership speaker, and a consultant. In 2001, she founded Reality Based Leadership, and in 2017 and 2018, she was named as one of top global leadership gurus by the Global Gurus, a top 100 leadership expert to follow on Twitter, and was deemed The Secret Weapon to Restoring Sanity to the Workplace.

That's a cool title.

That is. Tsai Wakeman, welcome to HR Breakroom.

Thank you. It's good to be with you too in person.

Great, great. It's definitely something when you're called the secret weapon.

Yeah, that's crazy, right? Little James Bond-y.

Like how to change workplace culture and stop the drama, right?

Yeah, it's all about ditching the drama.

So, Tsai, just to kick off today's conversation, the thing we're talking a lot about at Paycom right now is how HR can step out of the middle and actually be a go-getter, chase the cultural change, lead the cultural change. So in your mind, how can HR move from go-between to go-getter in their own organizations?

It's such a good question because I think today HR really needs to examine not only its role, but how functional, how healthy, or how dysfunctional its role has been. And HR traditionally has fueled the drama according to our research. And it's been the go-between, but it's been the enabler, the reality bender. It's like instead of just introducing you to reality, it's like, well, let me see if I can slow down that change, or let's see if I can enable that. And so I think for me, we really have to look at what we do that fuels drama versus diffusing it, and step out of enabling roles, because we have become the big workaround for what others aren't stepping up to in leadership. So it's like, leaders don't give feedback, HR's the workaround to bring in employee relations and do a step-down meeting. It's like, nope, we've got to stop enabling. I think that's the biggest way we can step out of our old roles into our new roles.

So, you know, Sy, companies that try to enable, they want to, right? Yeah, they want to. They want to and they want to not, you know, fuel the drama as you stated. What in your research, what have you found to be the pain points that they encounter?

Well, I think we've got 2 definitions of enabling. So I, as a therapist, enabling's a negative thing. When it comes to technology and stuff, we want to enable, it's a positive thing.

Right, right.

The pain points right now for HR is, and we know that there's 5, but the biggest source of all drama is What we call ego-based behavior, and that's venting, scorekeeping, tattling. If you want your input to count, you need to preprocess it, you need to be regulated. Bring us something that adds clarity, not chaos. Bring something that's processed and not accusations or contempt or critique. Bring us expertise on how to move things forward, rather opinions that favor your own preference and stop the action.

What are you seeing as the trends, 2019 and going forward, the trends that are gonna be driving effective cultural shift and change?

I think there's a couple big trends, and the first one is that people realize they've over-rotated on engagement, and they realize that they've gotten away from the evidence because your circumstances aren't the key determinant of your happiness, i.e., engagement. And evolution does not favor protected species. Like, evolution— like, if I coddle you and slow change down and make sure the feedback is psychologically safe, and I really— I try and make sure you have everything you need to be comfortable, evolution's not gonna favor the survival of that species. I've gotta start building in resilience and calling you up to greatness. And so I think that is one of the biggest trends I see is that people are saying, you know what, we're glad to engage, but we know the same behavior doesn't please a low accountable and a high accountable, that we're gonna only focus on engaging high accountables, so that you've gotta come to the workplace with all of your great diversity, but one thing, no variance, high accountability, and then we will work to engage the heck out of that.

So, you know, Sai, I'm the parent of 2 boys, a millennial and a Gen Z, and I see— Love it. Yeah, I see—

I've got 8 boys.

Wow. I can imagine what Thanksgiving is like at your place. But, um, and I see the, the difference in just the 2 of them, you know, and how they, they view. And so when you think about generations that advocate for change, what are some trends you're seeing cross-generational or within specific generations that our listeners here should be thinking about and considering from an accountability point of view? Well,

I would tell you that I think that the millennials and the Gen Zs are really suffering from kill the messenger. They have a low tolerance for lack of efficiency. They have a low tolerance for, you know, lack of readiness. And yet they're bringing this to our attention and people are killing the messenger. And so I love that they're pushing for change. And I think they're exposing those of us And it is showing up in my company. I have— everybody who works for me is under the age of 35. There's one thing we won't have variance on, and it's that no matter what your age or how you work, that you're accountable. Like, we just— there's no variance on accountability. And so I wrote a blog once. People were so upset about kids nowadays and that they're always gaming and how that's, like, gonna ruin the world. And I said, time out. From an HR perspective, those are the kids I wanna hire. My kids do not wait for buses to come. to figure out how to buy a game. Like, my kids are like, Mom, can I get a game in November? I'm like, well, the holidays aren't until December, so no. And they're calling my dad up, and they're like, hey, the trend right now is prepaid Visas, and we can handle that for you through a Venmo account if you want to just, like, put a little Christmas cash our way. Like, and they're playing internationally, and you've got kids texting each other, you know, cheats while we're playing. It's continuous improvement. Almost everything happening during gaming actually is a fantastic thing. if we can channel it, except for those of us who can't game. And so the people critiquing the gaming are the ones not gaming.

Right, so I interpret what you're saying as taking a point of view and a perspective on those things and applying it, right? Absolutely. There's resiliency, there's grit that comes out of going through that. Totally, innovation. Innovation and thinking differently that you can take into your workplace.

But judgment is gonna be the first place that we step apart rather than leaning in And if you can stay with beginner's mind and no ego mind that I talk about a lot, then you can find ways to call people up to greatness and let them bring the diversity into how we work. But there's a superculture out there. When we're talking culture, if we're not careful, culture can become our agreed-upon reasons, stories, and excuses about why we can't get there. People are like, oh, our culture doesn't support that, or we're Minnesota nice, or we're— that's not— Culture, we've really even misused culture. The markets require a superculture, and it doesn't matter where any of us came from, and it doesn't matter all the fabulous diversity and intersections we bring, in that we have to align to a superculture. And that superculture is no ego, low drama, high accountable, nimble change, ready for what's next. And that's the only place diversity and everything else can flourish. And we've been negotiating that, which is why most people's cultures are in a lot of trouble right now.

Well, instead of judging a gamer and saying, well, that's just a kid's thing, or it's a waste of time, it's saying, hey, what are the skills you can take from that and apply it to your organization, right?

Absolutely. Or let your organization be changed by it. I'm yelling at my kid to get a job, and then I start wondering why he's affording what he can afford. And then I realize that he makes more off of gaming sitting in our living room than I ever— I'm wanting him to get a 5, you know, I suppose minimum wage is a $10 an hour job, and he's making $100 winning tournaments online, I'm actually punitive on someone because he's not working, when in fact he's working. And that's why I think we just have to be really careful with any judgment. Seek to understand.

Yeah, I want to shift over to HR technology. We're talking about technology, and I think another aspect outside of gaming of technology is, you know, bringing technology into the workplace with workplace tech. So how is this dependency of tech from the millennial and Gen Z employees forcing cultures and organizations to change?

Unfortunately, it's not forcing organizations to change. And that's my biggest concern, is that we are still saying things like change is hard, and I'm preaching it's only hard for the unready. So if Dickens has the same flip phone he's had since high school and I never skip an upgrade regardless of my age, when you bring us a new mobile platform we're both expected to use, I haven't skipped an upgrade. It takes me a few days of discomfort to get it going. He's curled up in the fetal position wondering if we can get him a Scribe for his phone and if there's superuser training. And so what's happening with the technology is that people are so just-in-time. They're like, well, I need to learn this new technology because it's how we're going to pay now. No, you need to get technically savvy so that you're a funnel that whatever I put through you, You are able to figure out quickly. And so I think that unfortunately the younger generation isn't forcing us to have enough change. Like, I would really love for people technologically needing to retest for their jobs on a yearly basis to see if they're still qualified.

So you're talking about business readiness. So how do you create a culture that is actually going to be open to change, nimble and fast and able to adapt to the new tech?

Well, 3 things. First, you stop coddling the people. Growth comes in bite-sized pieces, but we let people skip upgrades. For me, it's all about like how do you foster readiness? You eliminate the third option. A lot of people when a change comes, they'll say, "Well, I'm not on board, and I don't think that's how we should do it, and I'm not that skilled, and I'm not that willing to get the skills I need." And they think there's this this option where they can stay and be unskilled or stay and resist. And so for me, when people are like, "Well, I don't like the new technology, and I don't really want to learn to use it," I'm like. No, seriously, what's your plan to joyfully get fluent and on board? It's almost like you think there's a third option, but most of the time you just want your preference, your ego's preference, to trump potential.

How can technology perhaps be used as a tool to get these people up to speed? How can it be used as a tool to digitally transform and overcome the adversity to drive that innovation?

You know, I think we have to pay attention to how consumable and the user experience. I just had Martha Bird, who's an anthropologist, on my podcast, and she talked about what anthropology can bring to really do some deep hanging out and really understand how people use technology. So I think the one thing that's important is if in technology, if something needs to be overtrained, it's probably not that usable to begin with. And so making sure that from a technological standpoint, the technology you put in is consumable, but also making sure that it's not a project or it's not something that we do in our spare time. That if you want people to have to use and adapt quickly to technology, make sure that's the only way they can get their food and their pay and their daily living. Because there are some things like, I probably wouldn't be as fluent in the internet if it wasn't the only way to buy some of my favorite brands of shoes. But when they moved to only online shopping, I'm like, I will learn PayPal, baby. I'm there. And so I think that we have to not worry about how to make it easier for the people, but how to make it a regular part of their daily lives.

How can HR step up to become the leaders within that organization to be advocates for both the tech and that cultural change that's required to stay competitive?

You know, it's so simple. It's like, role model, lead the way. It wasn't that long ago I was in a meeting where people were discussing whether folks could have their cell phones and have side gigs and be on Twitter and blog. And, you know, they're all worried about some of their employees blogging and having different brands on the side. And they were ready to make a policy. And I said, wait, wait, wait. Wait, how many of you have side gigs? What's your IG handle? How many of you are out on Twitter? And the people making the decisions, HR, of the 12, there's only one person that was out there doing it. So let's not critique and judge and mandate what you don't understand. So get yourself in there and get fluent and get out of the office and start hanging with influencers and finding out, you know, what's going on on social media. We went with a big strategy with Gary Vaynerchuk, who's a leader in social media, and our market's HR. And so we went with a big strategy on Instagram and Twitter, and we had a booth at SHRM. And we're like, hey, our best stuff is on Instagram. Follow us on Instagram, @SciWakeman. And we were helping people set up Instagram accounts. And these are the people people. So not to belabor that, Kayla, but it's like, first lead the way, step up yourself. Put a dream team together. Break the curve. Don't put a mixed group in there. Break the curve with the early adopters. Show people what's possible, and then the business case becomes more compelling.

What are your words for HR leaders that have people that are scared? What do you think is one of the things that they can do to move people along that are really resistant because they're afraid?

I think some of it is do better math because our ego makes it scary to push on people. But I want them to do the math of what it looks like 10 years ago when they didn't push on people. As a leader, what I've done to your career when I let you skip an upgrade, when I let you sit this one out, because I'm failing you as a leader. And so if I am not insisting that my team gets really ready for what's next and tech savvy, and I'm afraid to push on them, I'm looking at the wrong part of the equation. I should be afraid not to push on them. That's what should horrify me. So I think it's getting mentally flexible. Instead of avoiding the conflict, which is your personal comfort, you should avoid the preparedness, which is a key competitive risk to your company.

In making those cultural changes, why is it so important for HR to focus on creating that culture of readiness and how we can, not no, we can't, or no, we won't?

I think it's really about modernizing our leadership philosophy in that we need to realize that a leader's new role is to move energy away from why we can't to how we could. And it's not looking at change management as far as, like, What's convenient for the people? Because right now, change management is all about how to make it least disruptive to our employees, and we've got to focus on business readiness. How to make it least disruptive to our business? And so I think it's just continual calls to greatness and never resting. It's like siempre mejor, always better, always better, relentless.

So two-part question: communication. So communication is going to be really key in making that happen. Any thoughts on the best way for HR? to communicate how we are better and we can be better?

Sure. You know, there's so much good information out there on communications. We've got to just start looking at best practice and taking that best practice. So how do we get very clear about the messaging and how do we use the many venues that we have to put messaging out there? And if you think across generations that we've been talking about, we continue to email people who don't read email. And then we shame them when they're like, well, they should read email, but they don't and they get along fine. So why aren't we texting? Why are we being so stubborn that people have to, like, abide by rules none of us ever agreed to? It's like, if people text, text them. If people email, email them. If people consume on podcasts, podcast them. But we still insist you come to 8 hours of training. And we asked our listeners, how do you learn? And they're like, we like 3- to 5-minute videos. We put them on YouTube for free. You won't come to a 2-hour training, but you'll spend 2 hours watching our 3- to 5-minute videos. Why don't we just surrender and feed the people how they want to be fed? Our non-negotiables should be accountability and deliverables. We should cater to how people like to consume.

So, Saez, we're, we're starting to wind down here today. What role do you think training plays in equipping employees and managers with the knowledge they need to help advocate and facilitate that cultural change?

I think we have to have a lot more shared accountability in training. Training as a department and learning development as the holders of the knowledge that need to be disseminated just seems to fly in the face of meritocracy and democracy. And I am like, learning and development and training need to craft messages and find easy, quick ways to learn and practice what we think will be helpful in the future based on data. But we really need to not just push it, we've got to get people pulling. Right. And one of the best ways I like doing that is we train leaders in really good tools, and then we have them use it in their everyday life so that our trainers aren't the ones training. A lot of our Development experiences are leader-led.

Wow. Yeah. So it sounds like it's critical to making those cultural changes by training. Could be 3 to 5 minute videos. Exactly. Yeah. Bringing the training to the people in the way that they want it.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, what I'm hearing, Sai, is understanding that. So HR really has to invest effort to really understand the audience and who's going to be the driver of the change in order for them to communicate, as you're saying, to in their medium, in their way, in the language that makes sense.

And it involves deep listening, not just focus groups, but hanging out with people during the mundane times of their life and just being curious about how they take in meaningful information and providing that.

Well, Cy, unfortunately we are out of time, but it has been a great pleasure speaking with you today. So if our listeners out there want to keep up with you and your work online, where can they find you at?

Get out there on social media. We are @CyWakeMan. I have a great podcast called No Ego, and we have a fantastic YouTube channel, which is just, you know, the Sy Wakeman channel. So just look, youtube.com/SyWakeman. So we'd love to have people join us. We're just trying to feed the tribe and start a revolution, because our way's not working. Our way's not working, and it's time we got to admit it.

Fantastic. Is there anything else you would like to add about how we can prepare the workforce for cultural change today?

You know, I think all of us have some inner evolution work to do. We can't lead revolutions if we haven't evolved ourselves. So that's what SHRM's all about. That's what you guys promote with your cool podcast. And it's just always a pleasure. Thanks for having me back on.

It's awesome to have you on. And, you know, really, folks, really, they're gonna grow from everything they're gonna hear from this session. So awesome. Awesome.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.