S2E6: What's Next After Me Too?

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. In season 2, I'm doing my darndest to bring you wonderful guests on the show that are talking about how they're working to create evolved workplaces, and I'm also working to bring you some of my greatest teachers and then to add my own commentary in the things I'm learning and I want to pass on to you. So I hope you're enjoying this season. I wanted to talk today about a way that we're evolving in our workplaces, or needing to evolve, that some folks are struggling with or willing to struggle with. And that topic I want to bring up today is, as we are in this moment of Time's Up and Me Too, some of us are asking like what's next and really wanting to move through some messy, messy times evolving ourselves and evolving our connection and relationship with others. And not everybody is super clear about what's next or how do we move on from here. And some of the reactions that I'm seeing are less than helpful. And so I had the opportunity to work with an amazing client this past week, and I was coming in to do some of my more typical training and conversation about how to modernize our leadership philosophy and how to help people move into a more modern practice of HR. And while I was there, they said, you've got a bit of time, would you want to enter into a bit of an experiment with us? Would you be willing to host a dialogue within our staff about— now that we're learning and waking up a bit about All the things that Me Too and Time's Up are bringing to the forefront. What's next and how can we connect in healthy ways? And how do we have conversation about that? And I was so glad to agree. And we had just a wonderful session. And I want to share with you some of the lessons and work that was done in that session because I think it might be helpful as some of us are wondering how we can connect with one another in new ways, respectful ways, in spite In spite of all of our own biases and unconscious biases hanging out all over the place. So I'm glad to share some of the lessons learned from that day. Our intent was to gather together a group of people and have some conversations about how we can connect in newer and healthier ways and still do great work and innovate together and have fun at work and do all of that while being as respectful as possible, knowing that life's pretty messy. And that we'll probably all screw this up and in some ways offend some folks while we learn. So the experience I was asked to participate in is that the leadership development folks were working on some women's initiatives in the wake of their own organization being hit hard by some discovery of sexual harassment and sexual assault. And they had swiftly and cleanly really stepped up and did the right thing handling the people involved in those situations. And yet there was a lot of folks not involved that didn't really understand how to make sense of it for them. So they started to have some great dialogue, and they spent some time with women, or people that identified themselves as women, speaking from their perspective about what they needed in a more inclusive and respectful workplace. And they reached a point where they found that they had women talking to each other, and that maybe it was time, rather than talk to each other, to Start including a lot more people in that discussion. And when I refer to men and women, I just want you to know I acknowledge that we all identify in different ways and that it's a whole spectrum and that I don't really want to force anyone into any box. It just seems a more convenient way to let you know about this cool experience that we had. So to go beyond just women talking to themselves about this issue, they were really courageous and they set up an experience where women could by men who they considered allies. And there were some cool things that happened. They— some men got invited by a lot of women. It was kind of like a Sadie Hawkins dance. And what a compliment that, you know, one guy was invited by 5 or 6 women. I think that's a compliment to the space he's been able to create in their relationship. And everybody who came was very brave. What we wanted to do in the experience is just host a dialogue about what was running through people's minds What was some of their fears or their temptations? What were some of the things that they were worried about, or, you know, maybe that would be holding them back? And we want to hear that in dialogue form. And so I work to create a dialogue, not a discussion. So a discussion is when I tell you what I think I know for sure and I'm clear about, and you tell me what you think you know for sure and I'm clear about. And we get into this I-know mind and we don't really build any more common understanding, but I share with you my beliefs, you share with me your beliefs and experiences, and we don't necessarily do anything except become more convinced in what we believed in the first place. There's just not a lot of transformation or evolution that come from discussions where we just take turns discussing our point of view that we've held for years. But I wanted the dialogue. A dialogue is where I really move into I don't know minds, where I move into let me listen for all the things I don't know. And in that dialogue, let me share one data point from my perspective, knowing it's not at all the whole picture. And let me collect many other people's data points from all of their experiences. And through that, I can have a pretty cool crowdsourcing where I get a greater understanding of what's happening. So these brave folks came together willing to participate in a dialogue. And the first place we started is just, you know, what are some of the thoughts going through your head if you had to just report out the ones you might be tempted to believe or the ones that you find yourself adopting? And people were so honest and it was awesome. Some people, you know, brought up a discussion like, oh my gosh, rules have changed. And other folks commented that maybe the rules hadn't changed, but we're enabling people less or we're enforcing rules more. That perhaps people were pretty clear on what's appropriate and not appropriate, at least in the big stuff, but for some reason choosing not to obey the rules. And another person brought up a perspective that maybe it's not that people aren't clear on the rules. We all know the speed limit's 55 miles an hour. We take calculated risks. We all know the speed limit's 55, and most of us speed, and we all have come to accept this as a behavior that, you know, isn't legal, but it's accepted. And that there are times we get caught, and when we get caught, it's not that we can argue that we didn't know the rule. It's just that the risk we were taking, the way we calculated that, the consequence didn't, at the moment, you know, outweigh what we could get from advantage by getting someplace quicker. And it was just this cool opening up of people sharing some of their fears and their hopes. And some of the fears, you know, were like, can we have any fun at all at work? Is everything off-limits? And how about the holiday parties? And some people shared taking an approach where they started to play small. They're like, you know, I just don't really know what's appropriate, so I'm playing it totally safe. And I don't even want to meet with people after hours in mixed groups. I just want to Like fly under the radar and, and play it safe. And some people said, you know, I'm a hugger, and now is it even okay to hug? And what I loved about the beginning of the conversation is that we found it at the human level where everybody can have compassion. So instead of me painting you as part of a group of perpetrator or victim, I could just hear from you, one of my best allies, how hard this thing is, how many of us don't want to offend or microaggress against somebody. And so many of us are walking around with these unconscious biases, or we get into unconscious behavior. And so we started to then talk about what can we all do individually. Now, I know that a lot of this— there's like big power systems that need dismantling, and that we need to really think differently about our world, and there's some big work to be done. And while we're doing that, there's a whole lot of individuals that want to know how to be more evolved today at work, how they can stay in this game of evolution. And people are looking for just some suggestions or some answers. And I don't want to pretend I have any answers. I just thought there was such enlightened stuff coming out that I may share part of some suggestions that might help folks. And what I want to talk about that came out of that meeting is not suggestions I have for if you are being victimized or if you are being harassed or if witnessing that behavior. If there is an aggression going on, I want you to use all of your resources to report it. And if you don't feel that you've got what you need right now to be able to report it, that you at least enlist an ally or a sponsor, or, you know, find some safe way to bring it to the attention of people that can take it from there. I'm not wanting to victim shame or any of that place, but I do want to point out what's I think were some cool ways of looking at what we could do next. And the way we started to look at it is just like when I was counseling families. If a family was in trouble, everyone had a part to play in making it better. I'm not saying everybody was to blame for what happened, but everybody had some accountability on how to move the family into a different place. And for some of us, it was that we need to stop enabling, and for others, we needed to stop aggressing. For others, we needed to get more honest and more willing to educate. And, and I saw this discussion similar, and I felt sad that many people who, when they play full out, are innovative and creative and bring us some of the just the best thinking around, felt like their only solution was to step down and play small and play it safe, because that's not how we're going to create amazing results. And work products. And I found other people get into either/or, like, should I be myself, or, you know, should I work hard not to offend people? And that we had lost this capacity for and. And I saw very quickly that's all work of the ego. The ego loves extremes. The ego is like, well, if I can't do anything right, then I'll do nothing. And, and the ego loves the either/or. And I just wanted people not to Go carelessly into the future and play full out and, you know, be damned who is hurt by that. And also not to play small. And so I started to think about, in any of these dynamics on a work team post-MeToo, what, what can we all do to evolve? What can we do to work towards that workplace that goes beyond ego? How can we get out of fear-based behavior and defensiveness and and accusations and where the ego is and move beyond that to the messy stuff that we got to get vulnerable in and we know we'll screw up from time to time, but how do we get there? And so I started with those allies and the folks that are part of a group or have themselves been aggressors, micro or macro aggressors. What we came up with as some just great ideas about how to move forward is to first of all get out of the whole either/or categories, because that's victim stuff. The ego loves the sucker's choice where neither, you know, is the best solution, and it really paints us as the victim. And to move out of that and to understand that we all have unconscious bias, that it's our role to get as conscious as possible of that bias. And so the first thing for all of us to do is to really understand our biases and to understand our own privilege and to really work on growing our own awareness. And if you don't know your own illicit biases, there's a lot of help out there for you. Harvard has a wonderful website on illicit bias where you can go test yourself for some of the basic ones, but just each of us taking responsibility to know that our point of view is super limited and often reinforced because we may be part of a majority. And so to really look for ways to blow your mind, question your thinking, discover your own bias, and do that through getting far more intentional about how you move through the world? How can you really get conscious and more about making your own values visible? And if your values are the problem, how do you revisit your own values and really come up with values that are more inclusive? And so one of the ways to do that is just to get educated and to work hard to be intentional and to be really self-reflective on, is what I just said or how I behaved today, is that in integrity with what I really believe? Because we all participate in some things when we're asked, is that what we really believe? We're like, no. I can be sarcastic and I make attempts to be funny. And when you really ask me if that's what I believe, it's like, no, my heart's more open than that. And we've got to work hard to get intentional and really seek out feedback and feed-forward feedback, which is help me understand if there's things I have done or ways I've showed up that you have been offended by. And feed-forward, what could I do going forward to be more aware and more inclusive and to learn more about what I need to know? And look for feedback, just not in what people are willing to share with you, but in body reactions. Body languages, in what energy changes in the room, in times that your behavior limited the dialogue where things went silent and thing— people got just very task-focused. Get more skillful at moving through the world differently and really put that on project status and step up and make that happen for yourself. And be willing to be open to finding all those places of what's left of your bias and your ego, and be willing to get vulnerable when that's pointed out, that it is not personal, that it is a growth area. It must be tended to, but that it's all about moving beyond how we've identified in the past with the world and seeking new ways to connect, that beyond ego there's this place we can connect with fewer of our biases and with fewer of our behaviors aggressing another person and really get on that pursuit. And also be careful what you do when you're in a group that is too homogeneous, because those are the dangerous spots. Those are the places that we let our guard down and we act in ways that really aren't in alignment with our own integrity. And so even have kind of a memorized escape route When you're in a group that's homogeneous and you hear something that people feel emboldened to say or do. And my escape route is I usually just start with something positive as I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have a goal of creating a more inclusive place to work. And I'm just wondering if we can back away from a comment like that and really work towards something more positive and And that will help us build towards the future. Just figuring out a way to cause a pause. Can we pause this here and make sure we're showing up as our best selves and our best work? So plan your interrupting of the behavior and plan how you're going to manage energy away from archaic beliefs to beliefs that will help us move forward. So for all of us, that's our call. To evolution and to work through our own blind sides. Now, for those of us that at times feel like we're the ones being offended— so if we have to say there's an aggressor and then there's somebody who's more of the victim— one of the things we have to do as we move around the table— everybody's got a part in this— is that we have to make sure that we aren't using the power we're gaining to empower ourselves to bring harm to others. We didn't like the harm that somebody else's power brought to us. We don't want to harm others. And so it's up to us to be really skillful and pay attention to not excluding people and putting them into entire groups and stereotyping and justifying aggressive responses towards aggressors It's how do we play a part in creating safe spaces as well for people to learn about the blindsides that they bring to the table and making sure that we are editing our own stories. Because when we see something or feel something, it is so easy to get into ego and get righteous and I will not and I I won't stand for. And, and too many times we stand up out of ego instead of standing up out of a different place in ourselves. And one of the things I have found is that our egos really eat anger for lunch. To stay alive, the ego looks for insult anywhere. And a lot of times it finds insult where there isn't any. And this is where we have to get clean in the way we move through the world. In that I can't interpret every single action as having intent and proof that someone is a chauvinist or a misogynist or somebody who's unenlightened. That I have to also be willing to see the world in complex ways and that people have— they're the accumulation of all their intersections of where they came from and how they grew up that I have to keep a pretty open heart and open mind. And I have to be careful that I don't see insult where there isn't any. So as I notice someone's behavior, I might find that I'm insulted by that or I'm offended by it. I have to be accountable to myself and do some sorting because we're all going through a lot of things that are triggering for folks. And a lot of times a single effort can bring up a lot of the past. And we need to really walk carefully through the world and edit our own stories. And my husband once brought up this concept of being careful not to not be truthful or transparent. But we were really struggling at one time as we were trying to bring blended families together and we're trying to move through some tough parenting issues. And we tended to overreact and we tended to personalize things. And he came up with the idea. He's like, you know, as we're At this part of our journey, what if we both committed to just being very careful, very gentle, very sensitive as we move through some really tough topics? And my hope is for some of us that have some pent-up anger about some of the things that we have endured, that we can be careful with one another and edit our own stories. So anytime you're seeing somebody's behavior and you find yourself adding, and this means that, that is adding ego and story. It's a time to be very careful that you're not applying a story to that individual. I had this happen to me just the other night. I got off my plane and I was being met by a driver, and there was a man holding a sign that said Sai Wakeman. And I walked up and he didn't really greet me, and I walked up and I basically had to I kind of wave at him and, and say, I think you're my driver. And he looked at me really shocked and he said, um, okay, well, um, do we have to wait for your husband? And I tell you that my reaction was with story. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, can't he imagine that a female would have a driver? I mean, does he automatically assume that, you know, it's my husband? And, and I started down that line of, here's another example of all the bias in the world today. And I was just about this means that, and then he said, I just want to apologize. After I told him I was Cy Wakeman, he said, oh, he goes, I, I apologize, I guess I was expecting a male. And again, I was there, I wanted to react to that, and I didn't. I just said, you know, he made a mistake. I'm often mistaken, the name Cy, for A male. Even when they recorded my book on tape, they referred to me as he the first recording until we corrected it. And so I backed off of that, and thank God I did because I was about to paint him as you know this person with all of this bias. And as I listened to him, he said it was so fun to know that I was picking up someone named Sai. My dad's name is Cyrus, and we called him Sai. And I realized that this guy had 50 years of experience of the name Sy being associated with a guy. And I probably could find a little bit of forgiveness that he made that leap of faith that I too might be male. And as I just was open-minded and open-hearted and listened to him, I found out he wasn't that chauvinist pig I thought he might be. He was a really cool guy who had a cool dad named Sy. And He has 3 daughters and he's a surfer and he had so much wisdom to drop. And our ego is always looking for ways to separate us and always looking for justification for us not to have to take risks. And the biggest risk we can ever take is opening our minds and our heart and being vulnerable. So be very careful when you get any place that you think you know for sure what's happening. Be very careful when you see a behavior and And you add onto it meaning and story because it's that ego that's the color commentator. So for those of us that are in the group that traditionally has been an aggressor, let's really evolve beyond our own biases, wake up, get conscious, and do our darndest to move through the world differently and be super open to feedback. And for those of us that have found ourselves more in a group that For those of you that are victimized, let's really make sure that we aren't seeing insult where there isn't any, that we really are clear about the behavior before we assign intention or take offense or personalize. And for those of you that are asked to help your teammates, I've heard a lot of times when I say, well, could you educate me please? Or— Can you help me understand that people who have been oppressed get so ticked off? They're like, I shouldn't have to educate you. First I'm victimized and then I've got to educate you. You should be responsible for your own education. You should come, you know, evolved. And you know what? They're absolutely right. But when I think about what's next and how we can move forward, I'm not sure, even though they're right, that it's going to work that well. Some of us need to move beyond I shouldn't have to, which is what keeps us from being great, and really think about if I were great right now, if I could move beyond my individual stake in the game, what could I offer to my teammate? I don't have to solve the problems of the world, but what could I offer to my teammate that could help in their development? And if I were great, I would be glad to provide some education. And just know that that phrase, but I shouldn't have to, is what keeps us a lot of times from being great. You're absolutely right, you shouldn't have to, but why not be great? And when it comes to people we care about that we need to do work with, that we need to be in intimate relationship with, that we want to have fun with, why not be willing to help a person out and help them have a better understanding? And then there's those folks Folks that are the bystanders or the, the hopefully upstanders. And when you're sitting around and you see, you know, maybe somebody move into some behavior that intentionally or not is aggressive, and you see somebody start to play small because of that aggression, we as bystanders, upstanders, are in such a wonderful place because we're not being triggered in the moment. Hopefully we are— Able to see with compassion, with open mind and open heart, something that just diminished the energy in the room. And as a bystander, upstander, I try and pay attention to the energy in the room. And is this spirit building or spirit depleting? And in those spirit-depleting moments, what can I do as a bystander to hold space for self-reflection and begin-again, small-agains, Do-overs, start-overs. How can we reset? And that can be anything from if somebody brings up a great idea and puts input on the table and it's glossed right over and, and perhaps valued more when somebody else brings up the same idea. When we see things like that happening, can we cause a pause? And can we call a pause and a reset and just say, let's back up, I would love to move back and have this individual tell us more about what they meant? I saw us gloss over that. If we see people speaking on behalf of others or we do it ourselves, another technique is to say, you know what, I think we've heard a lot from— we're clear on a few people's perspective, but how can we really include multiple perspectives? How can we take what we think we know and really fact-check it against people with varying experiences. How can I take this and really garner more feedback for everybody? And basically, how can I pass the microphone or get that microphone passed around so that we don't have just a few data points, that our crowdsource is big and includes a lot of data points, and we can really check if what we think we know a lot about actually resonates with the rest of the world? And so as a bystander, I have found a powerful thing that helps stop inappropriate behavior. When I see inappropriate behavior, I just say one positive statement and then I ask what we can do for help. So I don't know the intent of this person's actions, but one thing I noticed recently, and it's so subtle, is there were 3 of us standing in line And waiting to order, and the person in front of me was passed over 2 times and other people got to order. And I didn't assume negative intent, but I just said something positive. I said, you know, before taking my order, I've really admired the patience of this woman in front of me. She has let other people move ahead in the line. And so I'm just wondering if one thing I could do to help is Put you focused on her so that she can order. I did it without shaming. I did it with a compliment. And I can even compliment the person taking our order. I see you working fast and furious. I give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure you noticed you skipped this person over. But by doing that, it just opens a bit for everybody involved to start again and do better. And I hope that person reflects if they were For me, we would have more discussion, but I hope that they reflect. The best thing a bystander can do is hold space for people as they self-reflect on their own behaviors and their own part in things. And as we're all moving through this messiness, there are so many people becoming clear on what respectful behavior looks like and the times when each of us aren't respectful in our behavior, intent, Intentionally or unintentionally. And we're all calling people up to have values that promote diversity and inclusivity. I think one important skill set for everyone to get good at is what I call a repair attempt. Because here's what I know for sure. As we move through and we try and stay in relationship and we don't just play small and drop out and play it safe and disconnect, if we want to stay in here and we want to connect and we want to work through this messiness and we want to move through our own evolution, then you got to get good at what I call a repair attempt. And I used to teach people this technique when they were in marriage counseling because a lot of people don't really know how to say I'm sorry. They don't know how to do a repair attempt. They may just say things like, I'm sorry you got offended. And that falls so deaf on the ears of the one offended that repair attempts are really important. So you got to get good at it. So here's the elements of a good repair attempt. First of all, apologize. Specifics. Clean. Apologize specifically for what you did without adding any circumstances, conditions, without adding any of that. I am sorry I said something that you shared with me was very offensive. I'm sorry I have offended you, that what I said was, um, was not appropriate. I'm sorry for that. Now, when people apologize, they tend to apologize with condition. They wait for somebody then to say, well, I'm sorry about that, my part in that too. And when people don't do that, they like withdraw the apology. But when it comes to working Through this, folks, you need to make clean apologies and you need to not explain it away or justify it or expect somebody who is struggling with your behavior to also own their stuff right away. You just need to do this for you from your seat in the house. So first apologize with specifics. Then show that you have an understanding of the effect on someone. I saw what I said change your entire body language. I saw you with withdraw, and I know that what I said was the cause of that. Like, I understand how that affected you. It, it led you to feel small or to feel unappreciated. And then the third thing is show that you have insight, that you have gained insight into how you're moving through the world. My insight is that I just realized I have a bias. I didn't understand before, that I had a privilege I wasn't aware of, and that I have some work to do and some things to look at. And show your insight, what you found out about yourself, what you are now questioning and reflecting on. And then the fourth part of a repair attempt is amends. It's not enough to say you're sorry. You have to use that to move differently through the world, to be skillful, to make To make amends means that not only do you change your behavior, but you find out if there's something you could do to restore what you have taken or desecrated. And sometimes I don't know what the amends are, so I have to ask someone, what could I do to make amends to you? How could I amend for this offense? And a clean repair attempt brings people back into relationship because it moves It moves us from our ego and our justification and our intellect to our heart. That regardless of how ignorant I may be or how unconscious I was acting, I'm pausing right now and seeing that I've harmed you and I really want to make this right. Get really good at repair attempts and listen when the other person shares with you how to make amends. Now, having said that, I know we're all human and that very few of us will make perfect Repair attempts. So here's what we have to do for one another, is we have to be willing to accept imperfect repair attempts. We have to have some tolerance for people doing their best with the insight they have, and we have to really encourage progress even if it's not perfection. And so be willing to accept repair attempts. They're attempts. Be willing to accept— it doesn't mean you accept The behavior or tolerate it in the future. It means that you saw someone move towards you and that you don't shun them, that we reward movement towards evolution. Too many times, if it's not good enough, we don't accept and we just make the divide wider rather than less wide. And none of these are answers, folks. There's So much we have to learn and do. But I just thought it was interesting and encouraging to have really an enlightened workplace hosted this dialogue about what next. How can we together connect and have dialogue and evolve when none of us are going to do this perfectly? And some of us are really hurt and others have been hurt for generations. And We have little insight at times into our behavior. Like, the other option is drop out and disconnect, and that's not going to move us forward. So how can we connect with everybody doing their best part to move us forward, to evolve us beyond our own egos and our identities and our judgments of one another? How can we really get to that place beyond And just because it was such a cool experience, I thought I would take this podcast and just share with you and hopefully get you thinking about you as the aggressor and what work you need to do, and about how you handle your interactions with your team when people intentionally or unintentionally offend, and what role you play as a bystander to step up rather than step down and to know that we're going to make progress. It's not going to be perfection, and the odds are that we'll all need to use a repair attempt in the near future. Let me know what dialogue and conversations you're having about how do we as a team reconnect in new ways, and how do we as a team not shy away from these difficult dialogues, and what suggestions you have for how we can move closer into one another rather than farther apart as we sort through and support the many people that are finally brave enough to come forward and share their stories so that we all can evolve and learn to move through the world differently. Appreciate you tuning in today. I look forward to the next episode. Hopefully some of the suggestions gleaned from the wonderful group that I got to be part of will be helpful. This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.