S3E3: I'm not the problem; they are!

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome, Drama Diffusers. That's what I love to call my fans. Lady Gaga has the Monsters, and I've got, I've got Drama Diffusers, or Disciples, but that's a little too close to—

You know, we found out we were spelling diffusers wrong for the longest time. You know what, only for like

11 We're not that good. Thank God for Grammarly.

Well, the diffuse we had means you disperse it more than that. More than that. Instead of when we found that out, we go, oh, no.

Some reader helped us with that. I'm like, yeah, thank you for people who speak English well. But back to the welcome. Welcome to the No Ego Podcast. We are in season 3. We like to shake it up around here. And we don't know how long this season's going to go on. Depends on whether you find our work helpful in this way. But we've been taking not just questions from readers, we used to do that, we're taking letters and emails, longer, longer forms, people pouring it out there, hopefully uncensored, so they can get it out from the ego. And that's one thing we talk about. Yeah. If you keep it in your head, it's still fair game for the ego. You get it out from behind that ego, you get it conscious and visible in front of you, and that will make sure that you can get intentional and conscious about what's So welcome to another episode of our experiment here. I've got Alex Dorr with me. He's the Vice President of People Evolution.

I've been loving these. Thanks for having me back.

Yeah, they're fun. They're fun. I think ultimately it'll be you and I, depending on your travel schedule. But I think we want to call in some other folks I really respect so they are getting multiple data points.

Yeah, I love that idea.

Yeah. It's kind of like— I love Sheryl Strayed and the Dear Sugar podcast. And I listen to it obsessively. She has the coolest voice, for one thing. I could listen to Sheryl Strait forever, right? Which one?

I can't tell you.

But hers was all about love, and ours tend to be all about— I won't say hate, but the ego's not all about love. It's like the opposite of love. Judgment, judgment, judgment. So today, we actually— you're going to— we're going to do 2 questions, because the first question, when I read it, And when Alex read it, our answer was about 3 words. Yeah. So I'm going to give you this first piece.

Could have been the first 5-second podcast.

It could be. We could have just ended it there. That would have been funny. I get these questions where when people, they go, I have a question, and they take what we teach and they apply it to their worst case. And then it's like, well, how will it work in this way? And our answer is it won't work. Yeah. So here's— I want to steal the thunder. I'll talk about that in a minute. So someone from Nebraska, Carrie from Nebraska writes, and I've put my glasses on again. This is hard on the video podcast. I have an employee that exhibits everything Cy talks about. She's always a victim. She won't stay in her own lane. She will not take accountability for her actions. She has conspiracy theories all the time that aren't true and pulls other staff members into the drama she creates. I have tried to rewrite the story activity with, with her and tried to get her to take accountability, but all efforts have failed. I need advice on where to start with so many issues going on. And our answer is 3 words. Alex?

Broken toggle switch.

Yep.

Is that what you had down?

Yeah. Toggle switch broken. So we tried to do this game of Answer in 3 words. And I have toggle switch broken. I also have work with willing.

Oh, yes.

I took out the— I cheated a little bit. So when I read this, quite honestly, I found the first sentence is the problem. And the first sentence is this: I have an employee who does this. The fact that you still have the employee who does this—

Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah.

is the problem. Unfortunately, you're like, well, I've tried to help them edit their story, and I've tried to help them be less resistant, and I've tried to help them— You know what I would do? I would write down a list of all the things you need them to change or do, and then I would read it with an eye towards, this is all the things I need to change or do, especially in regards to this situation or this employee.

Yeah.

This person is stuck. Stuck, stuck, stuck. I mean, seriously, it's— how do you change these people? Their toggle switch is broken. You ask them, what's their level of willingness to stop this? And if their willingness is low, you got to make a move.

Yeah. I just started. I was looking back at it, reading it back with I. Are you going to do that for this one?

Oh, that would be great.

For that. I don't know. Just see what it sounds like. So let's just experience this. Because that might be cool.

So instead of, I have an employee that exhibits everything Sy talks about, I am a leader who exhibits everything Sy talks about. Enabling drama, blah, blah, blah. She is always the victim. I am always the victim. She won't stay in her lane. I don't stay in my lane. I want to tell her how to live. I want to change who she is.

Yeah, that is such a good—

That is such a good one, Alex. She will not take accountability for her actions. I won't take accountability for keeping her here and her actions.

And all the time you're spending thinking about it when— Yeah.

She has conspiracy theories. I have conspiracy theories. How is that true? Right? HR won't let me fire anybody. Conspiracy theory. Even if I did, they wouldn't. Conspiracy theory.

She's always the victim. Conspiracy, you know.

She is pulling other staff members into the drama she creates. How many times have you talked about her and not to her? I am pulling other staff?

So I pull other staff in.

Have you done that? I'm not saying these are true or not. I'm just saying—

Where have you?

Turn it around and try it on for size, because the only one you can change is yourself. And when you change your view of the world, you can change everything without changing anything. I've tried to rewrite this story activity with her, but have you tried to rewrite the story activity with yourself? I'm trying to get her to take accountability. Maybe you want to try and get yourself to take accountability as her leader. I need advice on where to start, right? I think you probably already have a lot of advice on where to start, and you're hoping for some magic button, some strategy that I can give you that will make it happen. And like I said at the beginning, So many people come to me and they're like, sigh, I heard what you said. It's all really good. But I have this fill-in-the-blank special employee who—

Outlier.

And how will it work on them? And that is the ego's trick. Because the ego is so either-or. It's like, well, if it won't work on everybody, then what good is it? Why try it on the most willing? And folks, I'm very clear that the only people that can be coached are those people that are willing And that's the first requirement. And they have to have working toggle switches. And this person's toggle switch just isn't working. And we try and use things on our worst people, and they take all of our attention. Then the reality is, is you gotta use this stuff on your best and next best people. That's where you get the lift. And then the natural order of things leaves the most resistant people behind.

There's a big gap.

There's a big gap.

It doesn't make sense for them anymore.

And that's where they experience the natural consequences. responses that then they either have to step up or not. Yeah. So it's interesting because a lot of times when you all write us, you're writing for advice on how to change another before you have fully meditated your way into not just what is my part on this, but what did this come to teach me? Like, we all want to take action to impact others. I want them inspired. I want them to see that their conspiracy theories aren't real. Like, but are we looking at the reality and seeing what it means for us? And where do I have that trend in my life? And what do I notice about this situation? Yeah. What meaning does it have for me? This is not self-blame, but you have to look at the fact that if somebody is chronically doing these issues, there's a little craziness in asking, So I need advice on where to start with so many issues going on. And so my answer is, start by looking at yourself. See how you've enabled this. See how you're projecting your stuff onto hers so that you can feel like the victim. Like, find where you are, all these things you accuse her of. And that way, you'll at least have compassion for her.

That actually connects you. You're like, oh, I see that. I've done that too. Now we're closer, at least. Yep.

It connects you, and you have compassion and empathy.

Yeah. I love that you always say, with drama, you hired it, possibly on accident or not. It wasn't even your choice. You enable it, or you are it. But what I've found is I think— You allow it.

What I usually say is there's 3 sources of drama. Well, enable's the same thing. You hired it, you allow it, or you are it.

And I think that order, we might have to, for all of us, maybe put

Oh, I love

that.

You are it.

You are it. But sometimes earlier than that last one. But we do that for comedic effect.

You are it. You enable it. And you hire it. Yeah. It's so interesting. And I don't want you guys to— your ego's going to go, well, don't send them a question because— I was worried about that. They'll just slap you around each one. This is with pure love. We're not slapping anybody around. We're using these real questions. Not to tell you right or wrong, not to tell you what the magic thing is, but to tell you that until you've done the meditative self-reflection, the truth will set you free. Yeah. And you won't find any freedom. The first thing you need to do is loosen the ego's grip on your reality. Now, here's another thing I like to do is when I'm struggling with an employee, I pretend that they came to me wanting a job and interviewed how they behave on the job. So if I say, hey, how do you get along with coworkers? Well, I make up conspiracy theories about them. And no matter what evidence people give me, I don't change that. Would I hire them? And the answer is no. But leaders, every day people are interviewing for their jobs. And if they have chronic issues— Yeah. And most of you don't have extra headcount that you can just go, oh, well, I can waste 3 positions. I'll just leave people in there half-functioning. It's like if you're resource-constricted, and the biggest thing is that by allowing what's going on with this person, you're really negating the high accountables. One of the things we did when we surveyed high accountables is we asked them what is their greatest reward? How can we recognize them in the workplace? I remember this. Yeah. And we were expecting maybe it was like flex Or maybe it was, you know, all the benefits we try and use to win the war on talent. Number one thing high accountables wanted was differentiation. Differentiation. Don't treat—

Everyone.

The same. And what they meant by that is don't allow something with one person you wouldn't allow with another person. And actually what they wanted is for you to clean up the workplace. Not get rid of diversity, folks. We have so many barriers to access. I'm not talking about how do we grow and include people from— All different backgrounds. All different backgrounds, all different ways they identify as their own personhood, all of that. We need all of that. That just makes work fun and successful. But really write down on paper and see how silly it sounds sometimes when it's on paper because it's It's like, I have an employee, and then Carrie from Nebraska wrote, I have an employee, and then she tells me how horrible this employee's acting. And the problem's not the employee. The problem is the, I still have an employee.

Yeah.

When, you know—

It's a balance. It's like your story about how negative we are with that, and if some of the behaviors are doing that. That's a resource you're paying for.

We can't inspire another person. We just can't. All I can do is say, Alex, what's your level of willingness to really work and develop beyond these conspiracy stories that I hear from you? And if the willingness is low, then I have to move into, no issue. I need— I can only work with the willing. And so let's move into a transition off the team. But what I find is that old childhood saying, that's what you are, but what am I? That's what you are, but what am I?

Remember when somebody would call you like— That's where this could go, right?

Yeah, like, you're smelly. And I'm like, well, that's what you are, but what am I?

Yeah.

I really want people— that was such a good idea to come up with. Take what you wrote about another and put your I in there and see what you come up with.

Just like we did on that one.

This isn't to say, oh, well, I do it too, and justify it, because you probably don't. do it as disruptively. But it puts you in a place of compassion, so you quit feeling like there's great injustice in the world. Mm-hmm. You know what? If you work with humans, they all have the human condition. They all have conspiracy theories. They all see themselves as a victim at times. They all get out of their lane. You just described every single human being in the universe. Now, if it's interfering with their job, start performance managing. And if it gets to the point where you prefer not to have that person on your team, Then don't have that person on your team.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what started out short got long.

There's actually more to it. I didn't even realize as we got into that.

It's like, yeah. It's so funny though.

Good context on that.

We both are toggle switch broken. How many of you with people on your team, in some of your relationships, you believe about the potential in somebody which isn't yet actualized, and you use that to excuse what isn't currently present? So yeah, that was fun. Toggle switch broken.

Toggle switch broken. Low self, high self.

Now we're gonna get into the question that we thought that we would. Number 2. Number 2.

This one's a little longer.

This one's longer, but I might paraphrase it a little bit. Okay. Sigh. My job was unfortunately eliminated after months of drama between myself and the manager in the department. My role was the clinical expert in the department and her role was operational. I had 25 years of experience and she had 2 years. Do you hear the ego building its case?

I felt that there.

Yeah. It's like, I was eliminated after months of drama between myself and another. My role as clinical expert in the department and her role was operational. Could have stopped right there.

Yeah.

And then it's like, and now we'll hear from the ego. I had 25 years of experience and she had 2 years. I would bring safety issues to her wanting to look at root causes and she refused to let me be involved. I was very frustrated and worried as safety events became a weekly occurrence. She eventually blocked me from all my duties, refused to ask for help when she didn't know the answer. I advocated for patients and surgeons. Now the ego's like, do you hear it building? I'm amazing. In the beginning, it was like what I did and what she did, and now it's like the ego's taken over. I implemented patient safety issues.

There's always a victim and then a villain. Yeah, it just felt like the balance—

There are no new stories, right? Every story, I'm the victim, you're the villain, and I am helpless. And I want to ask Sy what I can do. Sy, what can I do since I'm the victim and they're the villain and I am helpless? Can

you explain this better? Yeah.

It's like, what can I do to change it? Well, the thing you never think of is stop being the victim and stop making other people villains and stop being helpless. But a lot of people paint me this story. I'm the victim, they're the villain, I'm helpless, what can I do? And did you ever see the YouTube video on Bob Newhart? It was a clip. He was a psychiatrist, and somebody came to him, and they're like, you know, I keep feeling this way, and I keep imagining that I'm like being buried alive in this box. Oh,

does he just yell, stop doing that!

Yeah, and she's like, so what can I do? And he's like, just stop. Just stop it. Just right now, just stop

it. Yeah.

We have to add a link to that. I think there's that one. Click if it's legal and good.

There's that one, and then there's the— have you seen the nail in the head one? I love that one. Where they're like— that one's— everybody's seen that, but it's like you could start with taking the nail out of your head. The nail out of your head. Your story.

And you always do that. You did— yeah.

Yeah.

You said— there's the other one with 2 people on the escalator, or the people on the escalator, and something stops, and you show— you don't know they're on the escalator, but they're like all these people, and it just shows that they all start to kind of panic and stuff. You don't realize they're on the escalator, and they're all like, What should we do? And then it pans out and it shows that the learned helplessness, they're standing on the escalator, they could just climb forward.

Oh, and just walk up it.

Yeah, it's— I didn't do justice to that. So anyway, the ego is getting there. And this is from a woman named Heather. I'm so thrilled that you sent this in because it's awesome. You are really showing me the exact same thing I do when I'm in ego. And it happens like only daily. So if you're now horrified of size-making and Alex making a little fun of your letter, do not do that to yourself. You had the courage to write this. Yeah. And you had the courage to out your ego, and growth is on the other side of this thing. So it goes on to say, I implemented patient safety initiatives that decreased patient injury. In other words, I was a high achiever. So now we've made the case. Now we're gonna tell how you were victimized. The day before my job was eliminated, and that was in quotations for me to know— the story behind quotations was it was a big setup and— Oh,

okay. Yeah.

Right? The day before I was eliminated, one of her supervisors came up to me in front of staff yelling at me, telling me that I undermined them and that I don't belong here. This was the second time this has happened, so I went and told the director. Now, first of all, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's— And I want to acknowledge I don't care how far we are into the human condition. I don't care how off track we get.

Yelling and—

That's abusive stuff, and that's trauma stuff, and I'm really sorry that that happened to you. So we're gonna take a brief moment from jesting with your ego to say, never okay to harm the spirit of another with any violent act. This was the second time it happened, so I went and told the director. The next day, the director told me to meet with the CNO, who ultimately told me my job was, quote, eliminated. My question to you is, how in the future do I handle situations where the management is so poor judgment and will not address the problems presented to them, wouldn't present the problems I brought up in the way I wanted them addressed? I'm adding that in. Mm-hmm. How do I help the inexperienced manager without threatening them. And I love this line, you are amazing, Cy, and I am looking forward to your response. That was just my ego out to play for a minute. So here's the letter. And I love, Heather, that you wrote this letter. And I think if you looked at it, I just underlined all the I's when it started, I did this and they did that. Because the minute that we are into I and they's and ultimatums and they never and I always, Your ego has totally moved into the house. There's just no room for— and I know you want to learn from this. The reason I love this letter and the reason I picked it is because—

It felt familiar. I mean, we've all been in that familiar situation where it's just—

And her real ask is, how in the future can I work with inexperienced managers without threatening them? So the question is super lovely. But the ego tried to manipulate my answer by giving me some pretty bad Yeah. So what are you taking out of there?

You know, just a lot. Like, the, the part that really got me, and it could be because a lot of times I'm younger, that's a tough deal where it's, you know, I got 25 years of experience and they have 2. And if you have that energy inside you all the time, I can't help but believe that comes out in your interactions.

Because our judgments already do. People with 2 years aren't as valuable as me with 25.

So what my question is, what happened when you were at 23 years and that person was just starting? So what was that first, you know, few interactions when you found out you had a new leader? It's gonna be in operations and, you know, they don't have that much experience. Like if that started that way or did you know that coming in? And I just know when your energy's into that, if that's a big deal to you. Then everything they say, if you're not clear, you're gonna have an air towards, what do they know? You know, I've been doing this longer than, you know, they've been alive. You know, it's not that different, but it's that energy from the start I think can cause the discussions to— and it's an energy thing. I think not enough people are feeling energy out there. So I don't— I cannot help but notice that that might have started this whole relationship off on a weird start.

I think you picked up on something so powerful.

Maybe not, but I just—

No, what you picked up on is so powerful, and it reminds me when, as a therapist and even in my own life, the mistakes that people make when they bring stepkids into families. Okay. So that, like, you would bring your kids, I would bring my kids. And I can see her face. I can't remember her name. Down in the Houston area, works with a lot of kids, her and her husband, at their church in youth groups. We were talking one night and she said one of She shared with me this cool story, and she said, you know, one of the things we really keep in mind with new people coming in to be youth leaders is that rules without relationship creates rebellion.

Interesting.

And she said so eloquently, we used to say the same thing as a therapist, but as a stepparent, you can't come in with all these rules before you've established a relationship. So when you go back to what was that person's first day like as a new manager? And maybe you had 23 years and maybe you weren't with them in the same workplace. Don't let your ego excuse it because of the details. But what did you do to form the relationship? And I think a lot of people who get in safety and quality, they have a banner like patients could die. And yeah, it's super serious. Yeah. But are you skilled in playing the lifeguard, not the police, right? In HR and consulting roles like a clinical educator or a quality, you know, a person with a quality job or a safety focus, you— it is easy to study up on policies and procedures and just be the no person or the righteous one that nothing is good enough. It's easy to backseat drive and see the issue when you're not in it. And if you did that without compassion, people really rebel.

Yeah.

But if you have good consulting skills, skills where you can see the positive intent of the person and then share with them, I understand your goal and really appreciate that, and here are some ways you could move through the world differently and more skillfully. When we're teaching, we really make sure that we don't punch the ego in the face, that we don't— we don't preach, we don't tell you what to do. Yeah. We say, try— here's a concept, and it's got some evidence in there, Try it on for size. See how it fits for you. I'll tell you about how I've used it well and how I've screwed it up. And I never heard in here any sharing of vulnerability.

Yeah.

Like, I'm not perfect. I screw this up. I understand. And so how do you work with inexperienced managers, folks? If you have more experience, know that your experience is in the past. It may help you based on the assumption the future is just like the past.

Yeah.

And I'm not negating experience. Like, I would rather have a neurosurgeon who's done, you know, 40 operations rather than like, dude, this is my first one, I hope it goes well, right? But most people coming into clinical environments just have some great training. They have some novice things they need to work out. But what if you just saw in the moment that it was your ego that brought in your 25 years as a trump card. What if you just saw in the moment, in this moment, Alex, you and I are equal. You bring some things to the table I don't have, and I bring some things to the table you don't have, and that's just the way of it. So I don't need to pull this out there, like, because quite honestly, my 30 years of experience, I will tell you, is more of a handicap in the new world than it is an advantage.

Interesting.

Now, I have a lot of wisdom about what worked in 1993. So Super duper, lots. But I don't have a lot of wisdom in what's going to work tomorrow. So those of you— the real question in this is, how do we work with inexperienced leaders? Form a relationship.

Yeah.

Be vulnerable. Get Brené Brown's books and soak your brain in them. Be vulnerable. Drop your armor. Drop your righteousness. Drop your one-upsmanship. Stop with the— Bring people in.

Yeah.

Seek to understand, like Covey said, rather than seek to be understood. Many people know this stuff, but a lot of times people out of their own ego and their own fear-based response don't use it. So, if I want to know how to work with inexperienced managers, they're not all clones, I go ask them. I'm responsible for education and safety in this area, and I trust you have that same goal. Help me understand what are some of the best ways to work with you. And if you seem upset, I get curious. Help me understand what was helpful about what I did and what wasn't helpful. But you have 25 years experience, and while you're equal and on the same level, you need to take an even higher road because people are looking to us with greater scrutiny. And we are the wiser ones. If you have anything from your 25 years, you're the wise ones.

Yeah.

You've put in perspective. We've lived longer. We put perspective around, we'll get there. And we got to get there together. But I notice whether it's HR or safety, when people are like, I know what's safe and I did this. You know what? Safety only happens when people are not— because they're externally motivated to be safe. They see it as a common goal and they understand the value in it. You know, so the safety experts would tell you like safety level 1 is that people just don't believe in it. Safety level 2, they'll do it to be compliant when they won't get caught or they'll do it when it's convenient.

Oh, interesting.

Safety level 3 is I'll protect myself, but I won't necessarily protect my colleagues. And safety level 4 is like I will do whatever I need to do, stop the action to keep a safe environment for everybody. There's so much in here though, but that was the things I picked up right away.

Yeah.

Do you have others?

I was just looking back. Pause for a second.

I have a good—

I don't have it in front of me. Yeah, I've got it.

Yeah, yeah, I've got to give them while you're thinking. You don't even have to pause the tape. We come to you live, you guys. This is— this will seem geeky.

I was going back through my notes.

This is kind of what Alex and I sit around and talk about. And we talk about it, and again, I want to make sure people really understand that I don't read it and then judge you. I read it and truly can find every part of this. I get arrogant and righteous. I get like—

Well, you're— it took me so long to go through this one because I had a similar experience that I was going through, like, in it. And I was like, gotta get back focused on— because we're doing a podcast on it, because you see so much in your day-to-day through these examples. Like, I just see parallels happening. So that's what— that's why, you know, it took me a while to go through it as I was writing notes.

How do you know you're in story or ego? You're frustrated or stressed. That's like an alarm clock going off. You— if you want to know what the problem is, if you're feeling frustrated or stressed, it's you.

That's the story.

That's the story. That's you. So what we really have to get into when you're feeling frustrated or stressed It's start with you. It's not a pacifist view where it's like, well, then I'm just going to let them do this stuff. No. You're going to understand how it's you, and then you're going to come out from a whole different place, either offering to help without judging, or you're going to come out and realize that you don't judge them, but you may prefer to be something different.

Well, and I think what you said there leads into some of the other parts was Where she's talking about, and I kept bringing these safety issues up and it was like they weren't listening. And I have found when someone brings something up with either motive or you can— Or even energy. That energy where they come in, you know, louder than they should have. I mean, it just kind of comes into the experience. Well, then it's really hard to take in what you're actually trying to say and it's not neutral. So that's why when you say start with you again, Starting that conversation, like you said, open, helpful, and neutral helps people hear it better. It really does. So I think that leads into the next part that she's really asking about is, is in the future, how to— How

can you do this?

Yeah.

And, and I love that answer. And so, but one of the things I picked up on, um, is so interesting. Byron Katie, a lot of times when you ask her a question, she kind of looks at you funny and she's just like, follow the simple instructions.

Okay.

And so— I

see where you're going.

It's like the person, the staff is yelling at you saying, you don't belong here.

It's very unsafe. If you are the expert, you're seeing it.

You're saying it's unsafe.

It's chronically unsafe.

The universe through the staff is saying, you do not belong here. And yet, you fight to stay.

Interesting.

The universe, I believe, whatever you— it's source or whatever, the universe whispers in the beginning that gut feeling. Something's off. It's like in a relationship, something's off, right? And our ego likes to dismiss it because it wants to keep what we have. And so the story starts to kind of fade away and it comes up again, that fades away. I believe in my life when I have ignored what feedback the world is giving me is pretty soon in order to get my attention, it needs It needs to yell. It needs to hit me in the face with like a 2x4 until it's like screaming to get beyond my ego filter of like wanting to win and wanting to be right.

Yeah. 2x4.

And so what I wrote down as I read this is when somebody was yelling, and I'm sorry they yelled at you, again, that's not okay. But for me, it's like, you do not belong here. My most peaceful, heartfelt response to you was just follow the simple instructions. Why are you fighting so hard to stay somewhere where everybody says you don't belong? And

then you're showing up every day. Yeah, exactly.

And then what happens is if you're showing up there needing, you know, and you're on a mission, then what happens is your behavior becomes the focus. And I can't tell you the number of times where I have dissolved conflict by just listening to what people are saying and following the simple instructions, and I have a lot of peace in my life. I had a physician once I needed to talk to. He was behind in his dictation, and that was back in the day where they would dictate, we would transcribe, but you couldn't bill. And so we would lose charges because there's a time limit on— Gotcha. If you didn't bill for 6 months, then you couldn't bill, right? And he was always behind. And so I showed up and I'm like, hey, here to help. You're behind on your dictation. We need to get caught up this week. What plan do you want to create? And he's like, get the blankety-blank out of my office.

That wasn't a plan.

No. And I just went, what? And he goes, I want you out of my office immediately. I want nothing to do with you. And so I thought, I'll just follow the simple instructions. So I got up and I just said, okay, so I will go, very peacefully. And then he's like, well, wait a minute. What will happen to me? And then I'm like, did you want me to come back in the office? Now you can notice I didn't come in there to tell him anything. I just was following the simple instructions. Yeah. And so I'm like, do you want me to come back in the office? He's like, yeah, what will happen? And I go, well, since we're on pay for performance, you'll lose X amount. You won't be able to count those visits as part of your performance. And I said, then I would assume the chief medical officer is very concerned about the quality of care, because if this person shows up in the emergency room and we don't have the latest notes—

Dead.

And so I told him maybe all the things that would happen, and he's like, well, if he wants to, he can. He got all boisterous again, and he's like, just get out of here and tell him I said— I go, no problem. I go, thank you for your time. And I went to go, he's like, where are you going? And I'm like—

To go talk to the—

You said for me to go and talk and tell the CMO to basically Jump off a cliff. I spoke nothing.

Yeah.

It was just he would tell me to get out, I would go, and then he would be like, well, come back. And I would come back, and they would tell me to go. I honestly did nothing. And then he asked me to come back. He's like, well, it seems like we better get this stuff done. I'm like, okay, all right, what would be the easiest way to do that? Now, it doesn't always work that way. The reason I tell that story out of 100 other physician stories,

yeah,

I tell it to serve as a model that so many times following the simple instructions, how many times do our kids tell us like, I don't want to talk about it right now, and we stay? Mm-hmm. What if we gave them space and said, you know what, I'm willing to give you space and for you to be in control of some choices about when you want to talk to it. Can, can I check back in with you? If the simple instructions are being screamed at you, Taking the simple instructions immediately puts you in a more peaceful place, and that immediately gives you a better chance of bringing out your best self rather than your worst self. So that stuck out there too.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'd be curious to see where it's at after that because once you get out of that for a second, following the simple instructions, just to— if you have time to process what was all going on there, you're actually trying to fight hard every day to get back to that environment that has you so stressed, and people aren't listening to you. I mean, it really is—

Which is all ego. The ego fights for things that aren't good for us.

Yeah, trying to win this thing is not good for you right now.

It's like if we're playing tug-of-war, when do I just drop— you know, people are like, I can't stop this fight with this person.

Yeah.

And I'm like, or you could just drop your end of the tug-of-war rope gently so they don't fall. That's mind-boggling because that comes from high self. Low self is, you know, I have to, I can't, you know, what will happen to the safety in this hospital? But once you realize that you have put yourself in charge of something bigger than yourself, you're an ego. Yeah. Somebody once said EGO is edging God out. Like, once you have, like, taken on the role of safety and you know best, You're in extreme righteousness. And when you're righteous, you stop learning because you already are right. And so if you're right, what more is there to learn from the universe?

Because I saw in there, I think, or unless I just wrote this, blocked me from all of my duties, as if this, you know, the whole hospital's away from safety, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, there's just some big, you know, like you said, all, never. I mean, some big words in there.

She eventually blocked me from all my duties, refused to ask She asked for help when she didn't know the answer. And how could you know that she really did that?

Well, that's what I wrote down. I had to start. I'm like, why did I start that? It was because I find when people are in that role where they typically had been consulted oftentimes or typically were asked for help, and when it doesn't happen, they're so shocked and frustrated that then it must be they just refused to ask you for help. It never dawns on them they could be asking Also— From some other nicer experts or other nicer places. I've thought about that a lot. Like, people fight that. So who knows? I guess, I guess the story—

I'm laughing because one time I was coaching somebody and they're like, well, how do I get people just to come to me directly? And I go, be nice when they do. You have a reputation. You have a reputation for being shaming and righteous. And, you know, some people when I was counseling, they're like, well, I cannot figure out why she left the marriage. It must be for, you know, money, or it must be— I'm like, could it just be as simple as you weren't kind? Yeah. You weren't fun to be around. No way. No way. People, the ego needs a reason that has nothing to do with me. They have to assign this intention to other people, like, it must be that They are blocking me. It's like, or did my own behavior limit my relationships with people? So what I would say to this person, because I love the question, the real question in this is, how do I help the inexperienced manager without threatening them? I would take out inexperienced. It doesn't matter, because most all of us are inexperienced in what we're trying to learn or relearn. Mm-hmm. That's why we keep doing the competencies. So now the question becomes, how can I help a manager without threatening them? And the simple instruction is stop threatening them and do more helping, less threatening. So how do you want to help somebody without threatening them? Help more, threaten less. So then look at what in your behavior is threatening. And if you're coming in as the police officer rather than the lifeguard, it's not helpful. If you're the know-it-all and you don't get vulnerable and you're armored up, as Brené Brown says, Yeah. It's not conducive. So build the relationship so that if there are rules, you know, you can help them with that. And really, it looks

more of a partner in that if they are missing some of the safety issues. Like you said, I love that analogy, police coming in as the policeman instead of—

The lifeguard.

Yeah, absolutely. Bridging that.

Bridging that. And for this person, this is just getting into my own intuition. Be very careful about what you know for sure. Because the farther you're out of clinical practice, the more opinions you have, and at times, the less experience you have. And so be very careful on sentimentality, or be careful what you know for sure. Yeah. That would be my best advice to this person is, You're moving through the world certain. The eagle loves certainty. You're moving through the world very certain. In a

very high-change environment, healthcare.

And one person can't possibly know, even if you are the PhD expert in all of this, you can't possibly know. And so find the ways— most people get mad that people don't accept them in. Find the ways that you step down or out And be very careful what you know for sure. And if you're asking yourself, what can I do for this person to act in a different way, be very careful you're trying to control them if you're trying to solve for it. But the simple answer is go ask them. What could I do to have you want to come to me

first?

So, good stuff. Good stuff.

There's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot of good stuff in that one.

For those of you that are hearing the simple instructions, I want— this is kind of my thought. That's the big takeaway. Tomorrow, listen for the simple instructions, right?

Yeah.

And listen to how when you wanna ignore those simple instructions, how conflict completely ensues, like, 'cause you're not listening to the universe. Like, I lined up yesterday to get a copy, and somebody was like, I was in front of you. And my ego's like, Clearly, you were not.

Especially when you want that coffee. Yeah.

War or peace. I can just listen to simple instructions. I'm like, you know what?

One person ahead.

This guy sounds certain. I go, you know what? I didn't say, you're right. I go, you know what? It would be such a pleasure for me to let you go ahead. And I felt great.

Yeah.

Right?

Who knows what the ripple effect was?

It's interesting, the assignment is listen for the simple instructions, because most people hear the simple instructions and they go, besides that, because the simple instructions are never what the ego likes.

So true.

It's so true. Okay, folks, I think Heather's courageous. And Heather, you poured your heart out, and I love these questions. So to the brave ones out there,

Keep them coming.

Yeah, your ego will hate this assignment, but uncensored, dump on paper your true thoughts, your true situations, how bad it really is. Tell us on paper. And this was juicy because it was longer. Yeah, it was like 2 paragraphs. Yeah. And also tell us how you're loving these podcasts or not. We are iterating, and trust us, we want to follow the simple instructions. So tell us what's helpful, what's not helpful, and help us build this season because this is like, this is a wild hair idea. Yeah. We're just trying things out there. We're testing them. We don't have a fear of failure. We're just trying to figure it out. So you can send us questions. How do they get us questions, Al? I don't even know that.

We've got the form. We'll put it back in the description. Oh, there's a form? There's a form. Click through and then it's just— Let it free flow.

Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited. Thanks, Al, for joining me.

Yep, thank you.

And I—we are out. So keep ditching the drama and make sure you spell drama diffusing correctly.

Exactly.

Later. This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sai Wakeman.