S3E8: I'm a New Leader and Fear is Holding Me Back

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome to another episode of the No Ego Podcast, season 3. I've asked you to give me your situations and I will help you sort them out, kind of unpack them, and see where we might loosen the ego's grip on your situation and find maybe some opportunities to find movement, move through the world a bit differently. And I, this season, am bringing on great people to help me unpack that because I want their perspective, not just mine. And so I've got Stephen Matthew Adams here, a speaker, a An author, amazing author, and a lifestyle mentor. Welcome.

Thanks so much. I love it.

It's so good to be back. And we're coming to you in case you want to know if we have a new podcast set or something. This is the Ditch the Drama Tour. Our first Ditch the Drama Tour is in Houston tomorrow. And so I grabbed Steven. He's here to help me do some coaching, and he's my personal coach. And so I've grabbed him to do a podcast and see if we can bring some— lay down some of his wisdom on Happy to be here

as always.

Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. And we know this too, we didn't both decide to match, but we know this too.

No, we didn't send any coordination text messages ahead of time.

Great minds think alike. I'm honored that I am dressed like somebody coming from New York. It's like fashion— I

think you have a little bit of New York City in your style.

I'm a New Yorker at heart. The first time I hit that city, I was like 17, and I was on my way to Germany, and I had a layover, and I remember going into the city and then like, I got so ripped off not being born here. I was like mad.

Right, right.

But you're Minnesotan. Minnesotan. Where were you born?

New Jersey.

Oh, in New Jersey. Why do I connect you with Minnesota?

I don't know. Do I have a strange accent?

No, but I thought that's where you went home to see family over the holidays.

No, New Jersey.

I wonder if I'm following the wrong guy on Instagram.

You may be. You may have to check that out. No, no, no. Originally,

uh, I don't know why I put that with you.

Born and raised in New Jersey. Went to school out in Philadelphia area. Oh my gosh. Made my way up to New York City.

Maybe a past life we were together on a dairy farm in Minnesota. I would not be surprised at all. That was probably our case. We probably were burned at the stake or something.

Exactly, as heretics.

No, they don't do that in Minnesota. They're very nice. They only do that in Massachusetts. I better get on to our incredible letter. Jenna in Indiana wrote a great letter. I think so many of you— it's an email. saying, don't call them letters. It's kind of like a Dear Abby thing, like Dear Sugars. So it's an email, but it's got some— a lot of detail in it. But I think many of us will really relate. So the short line is Jenna is new in a position of leadership, although she's been studying leadership and reality-based leadership for a while, and she was up for the promotion and against or in competition with some of her peers. So it's that age-old thing about, I've been promoted and I'm leading amongst my peers and I have all this zealousness and go for it and I want to— I can finally make a difference. And she believes that she's getting a bit of a chilly reception. Mm-hmm. So what she's asking for is what she can do to move her team in the right direction. She has the full support of her manager, who is at the top spot in the company. She's, however, terrified of what might happen if I start— if she starts to assert her authority and implement change. So she asks, should I confront or make small moves to win my team over? And I want to give you just a little of the color of this too. It's a little long, and I want you to write long, because that gives us more to work with. But for the sake of the listener, basically— Jenna says, I'm really struggling. I'm a fairly new leader, though I've been studying RBL for a couple of years and have spent a lot of time in professional development. I worked in an organization for 18 years, most of which is in marketing. About 6 months ago, the organization created a new position. They brought areas together and people from each of the areas applied. After the interview, she was selected. And so she says, I was excited by the promotion, especially after all the work I've put into developing myself for the last couple years. I was happy to be in a position where I could make a difference. The possibilities were opening up for me. I was excited to have the opportunity to coach and encourage others in our organizations. And I found out very quickly, though, that that wasn't going to be the case. I was now managing people I had been working on the same level with, 2 of which had been passed over the position, and all of them knew me. But she found out later through a manager, she believes, That they shared some concerns about some changes she might be making. Her point basically is that she created a planning document with the support of her manager to kind of say, let's start anew. The questions that she included were what the managers expect to need in their departments for the rest of the year and what ideas they have for making their jobs more efficient. And when she rolled this out, she says, and these words are important, I presented it to 3 of the people I manage at their staff meeting. As soon as I did that, I felt like I was treated to major looks of disdain. After I passed those out, there was no talking and the room turned chilly. In the days since, they've barely spoken to me and seem to be avoiding me. I've requested that they schedule a time to sit down with me individually and discuss their responses rather than just write them down and turn them in to me. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully I can be transparent about my plans and expectations and they can be honest in return. I think that's the only way that it will work. And she's just really scared. As I read through this entire email and I gave you the bits and pieces, lots of fear-based behavior. Fear of not being liked, fear of not being accepted, fear of not making a difference, fear of not being able to implement the things that she wanted. There's also some in there I didn't read about fear if these people left the organization, that they're really popular, and, you know, fear, fear, fear, terror, terror, terror. Right. How many times do we get what we ask for and we imagine ourselves and how we're gonna be, and we get there and it just becomes fear and shutdown city? We're oversensitive, we personalize things. When you're in fear, everything becomes a big deal. And I try and liken this to when you're at home alone, how your hearing gets exaggerated. Like any little sound, you're like, what is that? You could hear those sounds all day long, and without fear, they aren't amplified.

Right.

And so when a lot of people are really into story and really focused on What's going on and what should I make of that? And what if this happens? And they, they're exhausted. They go to the future and they go to the past. And you gotta sit down and just feel the fear. That ego is all about fear-based behavior. Did you hear the fear in there?

It's also predicated on subjective context.

Yeah.

Right?

Talk about that.

How much of this is actually real? How much of this is perception based on primarily how you feel about yourself too?

Well, the worth comes in there too. It's like, what if I'm not good enough? Oh my gosh, look, there's proof I'm not good enough. Right. There's proof they won't respect me. Exactly. When I might not be moving in a way that's respectful to myself or them. Because when we're not feeling worthy, we tend to do extreme grabs for power. We tend to try and get worthiness through external things like power or demanding or direction,

right?

It's almost like when reality-based leadership— my principles are used for evil because it's like, well, Sai said don't let the door hit you in the butt,

right?

People who really are in a place where they know their own worthiness, they're more patient. They're like, you know what, let's keep thinking about how we might come together on this. And if not, ultimately one or both of us might not want to work together.

I think this goes to the heart of the letter too, is understanding your own motives. If you really believe in what you're doing and you believe that you have, in this case, in an organizational sense that you have the organization's interests, best interests at heart, and you also have the best interests of the people that you're working with at heart, then it becomes a lot easier to make those quote unquote tough or challenging leadership decisions, right? Because that's a fundamental element of being a leader. That's a huge distinction between being a leader and being someone who's led is the ability to make those challenging calls in the midst of uncertainty.

And to know what the non-negotiables are. But not make non-negotiable demands.

Exactly.

It's like you need enough non-negotiables. So sometimes on the one hand, in this letter, we could just hear that this person's just afraid of leading. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I want to be liked. Well, you're not gonna be. You're a leader now. You're gonna be respected. And they're having a hard time seeing me as a leader. I think you're having a hard time seeing yourself as a leader.

Which is ironic because at the top of the letter, the person expresses their confidence in their abilities to lead initially. And kind of goes back to what we were talking about in the previous podcast too. Why do you want to be a leader?

Yeah.

Right. Is it to make yourself feel better? Is it to placate your ego? Is it to— and there was also a line in there that says, as a result of all the work that I've done, is this— is it a reward? Or are you leading from an altruistic place where you truly believe that because if you are put in a position of leadership, you will be able to actualize your own gifts, your own talents for the benefit of everyone else too, in serving yourself at the same time? Yeah.

I didn't hear that as much, and that's why a letter like this gives me some more— gives us some more kind of detail also to move into our intuition. And many times I would go the RBL path of saying, look, leaders make unpopular decisions, buy-in's not optional, get more clear, ask— you can only work with the willing, so ask people what their level of willingness. And that's not where I went with this letter. Because what I heard a lot of is at the very moment you want people to follow you and you want to have good relationships, a lot of the language and the positioning was divisive. Mm-hmm. And it was like, I've worked hard, this is my reward, I, I'm confident, I, I was finally happy to be a place where I could make a difference, where I could make changes, and You notice that people's reaction was fear-based. It seems like maybe you are moving forward unilaterally because then the armies start to be built. My manager agrees. I went through this with my manager and they're the top of the company and I have their backing. I'm exaggerating this unfairly, Jenna. I'm exaggerating this unfairly to help you hear yourself where it's like, what do you want? relationship, what do you do? I tell them that I know what is best. Or— and so I think there's some examining of motives and opening up of possibilities and moving out of fear, because I just feel a little urgency, like we got to make this happen now. Right. And we've got to, like, you know, time is of the essence. And, and I think that There's some real fear to be sat with and some real panic going on, like, this is my one big chance, what if I fail? So I think the editing of the story doesn't need to happen as much as, did they treat me in a chilly way? I don't think that's where your edit comes from. I think your edit of your story is, I have to make a difference and I have to make this happen. And I think the editing of the story, this is my one chance. I would get a much more peaceful storyline.

This is such a great question too, because I think it's a common quandary, especially for new leaders or people that are assuming what they perceive to be a grandiose position of leadership. And as we were talking about earlier, I think one of the easiest ways to not come off dictatorial or authoritarian is to be strong in your leadership to the degree that you set the tone for what is going to happen. But you get the creative buy-in and the collaborative effort on how we get there.

Yeah. Here's what we need to create. We put these departments together for this level of efficiency or these results. And then, you know, how can we do this? Because even this wonderful planning document that you put forward for people then to give you their responses, it's almost like mandated responses. It's almost a little forced in a way. There was a person in my life at one point where it was like the questions were so leading that they were asking me. It's like I wanted to share openly with them, but the questions were so, did you or did you not? And, you know, what is your one way of— and they already had an answer in mind. And it became obvious that the document or the questions were just trying to shape me into that. They weren't an open invitation to co-create. Right. It was a we need to be aligned meant you need to agree with me. I don't want to tell you what to do because that would be bullying, but I'm going to go about this. And so what I would love for you to just take a while and sit in some of your fears and journal what your biggest fears are in this position and how those biggest fears are putting a timetable and the urgency on you that you're buying into that you don't need to accept. Right. And then look for any extremes in your language, like, you know,

Especially with if the people that are supposedly well-liked are let go, that might potentially somehow reflect poorly on her. That's a story that's made up. Totally a story. She doesn't actually know whether or not these people are well-liked. Maybe they're not really well-liked, and if they were, you know, if there was some sort of attrition there, that might be actually seen as a strong move On her part as a leader, right? So ultimately, again, it kind of comes down to sometimes the leader is not the most popular person in the room, and it's not necessarily about popularity, but it's about being respected, right?

Absolutely.

And that's ultimately what it comes down to. That's the price of being a leader, that you're not always going to be the most popular person in the room. But when the way we diffuse sort of the totalitarian aspect of that is getting really clear on the purity of our intentions.

Yeah. And that's where I think the clarity needs to come from in this case is to get really clear on intentions because it seems pretty externally motivated right now about, I want to be successful in my first leadership job and I studied for this and—

And almost blaming everyone else for their responses that now I'm not I don't consider myself to be an effective leader or rising to the occasion because of the responses of everyone else.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. There's so many stories to look at here, and she recognizes that you're well on your way. Jenna, your fear just brought out kind of an urgency, an ego thing, an attempt to control, some divisiveness. And so it's getting back in balance or alignment, get out of the fear, and Here's the bottom line of what I need to do. Get really neutral in your new story because there's a lot of like, you know, it was my one big opportunity to make a difference and they looked at me with disdain and there's a lot of drama in here. But when you edit your story, it can't be without motive. It's like, you know, to shape it into the answer you want, it's got to be to get to a neutral place. So what I mean by that is, here's how I would see your situation, is over the last couple years I've taken a keen interest in learning more about leadership, and I applied for a position, newly created, and was granted that position. The teams that I'm working with are coming together in new ways, and some of them thought that they too would enjoy the position. And so I'm in the process of building both a team and setting forth plans for the future. And I am looking at ways to do that. And do you hear how the panic falls out of the story? And there's no one meeting that's make or break, and there's no manager who supports me. And all the villains fall away, all the victims fall away, the age-old story falls away. Mm-hmm. Basically, I came to work today, I'm in a bit different position, I've studied it a bit, I'm not sure how it all applies, we got some work to create, I know that I need to achieve the planned efficiencies that was visioned by this restructure. And so I have maybe 3 clear things I need to accomplish, and then I need to go to my team and just say, team, how could you move forward? I heard a lot of I in here about plans you had and disappointment that they didn't, like, love your plan or that it didn't go according to your plan. I really think you need to drop the fear and the plans and instead get clear on what needs to be created. And it's okay to provide templates, but don't provide templates that lead the witness. I just get a sense that there's a lot of control coming from you, Jenna.

Which ultimately comes out of fear. We only try to control anything that we fear. And I think it's incredibly valuable here to retrace our steps back to our C word of the day, compassion. Have compassion for yourself.

If you're a new leader— For those of you that haven't listened to our last podcast, we did 2 podcasts today. This is our second. So listen to that one too. Yeah, it's awesome. And we talk a lot about compassion. Both for yourself and others, but please make that point. That's a beautiful point.

Absolutely. So, have compassion for yourself. You're a new leader. You're figuring it out. And I think if you ask even some of the most revered leaders in the world, they're still figuring it out every day because life is dynamic and situations change all the time, and the leader has to adapt to the circumstances. So, given that you're new to this, give yourself the time to learn how to maneuver through the organization. It's

not a test you're gonna pass.

Exactly. It's a test you're just going to keep taking.

Yeah. It's not a test you're going to pass. It's a test you're going to keep taking. And oftentimes— I love that. Yeah, that was good. I love the teaming on that one. And oftentimes, like, you never get your grade. I once had a teacher leave, like, at the end of the semester. We never heard from her again. And we never got our final grades on the final exam. And it's like 30 years later, I'm still kind of curious.

That's quite a cliffhanger.

Yeah, it was.

An academic cliffhanger.

And then I worked so hard in that class. It was—

It's like, what was the point?

Yeah, I worked so hard in that class. class, and it was just like everybody got the same grade. We all passed because they didn't— I think just like went off. I don't know what happened. Maybe she met a guy at the mall and fell in love, and she's living happily ever after. I wish I knew her name because I'd call her out on my podcast. Send me my final grade.

That honestly sounds like almost, uh, sort of reminiscent of Tuesdays with Maury. Yeah, like a life lesson, right? That you just walk away. You don't get the grade. You don't figure it out.

You don't get the grade. In fact, Thinking about, you know, death and spiritual path and stuff, I decided that I think what I'm gonna know at the time of my death is that I pretty much don't know anything. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what we got to get okay with, because all this learning that we do, there's a winding up and unraveling that we have to get good at. So it's one thing to really learn and I train and we teach new techniques. We want you to practice some, and there's some things that work better than others. We want you to learn all that. And yet when you implement it, keep beginner's mind of I know nothing, because once you decide that you were right, you naturally become righteous. Right. And once you're righteous, you stop learning. And so then you only have like one shot, and when that plan doesn't work, you're writing Cy Wakeman going, now what do I do? And a lot of it isn't just that Psy knows what to do, it's that in the moment, that moment had so much information for you that you might not have picked up because, you know, you got righteous. And even like, I don't just want their written answers, and I've asked them to meet with me. And, you know, like, I really— I hear your heart so open, you want them to talk to you, but it's almost like when you're in fear, the level of control you exude—

Right.

You know, it's, it's when I get in those situations, it's almost like the person, rather than hearing the many ways I'm acknowledging what they're saying, it didn't come in the exact form, the script they needed, so it never happened. Right. And when we're righteous, our, our requirements and what will meet those requirements get so narrow that we're no longer working the fringes. And it's on the fringes that we find opportunity to forgive and unite. And, you know, it's the melding of things together on the edges. And I see you just working in the middle of the path, and you leave people very little option but your way or their way. And people are naturally going to choose their way. I want you to create more space for a shared pool of meaning and Less urgency, less fear, more curiosity, more wondering, less like, I have a plan and here's how we're going to do this. I just, I think opening. Your word I want you to— is opening. And you know a lot and you know nothing at the same time.

Yeah, that's such an important truth to come to the realization of, that there is no such thing as mastery. And yet again, if we're talking in the realms of spiritual practice all the way to, to like corporate, professional, personal development, there is no such thing as mastery. These are all tools, these are all methodologies, these are all practices, and everyone wants the answer. But, um, one thing that I've taught quite often is as soon as you think you have the answer, there's another question.

Yeah, or it's the answer to the wrong question.

Exactly. But it's just there, there is For me, especially in the approach that I take with my work, it's all about finding the right questions. Forget about the answers, because the answers are always changing. But if you arm yourself

with the right

questions, with the right questions, I believe it'll allow you to navigate anything that comes up. Because just as you were saying before, you know, if you propose a solution to someone else to use for this very specific bespoke situation, and it works great, and then they want to apply that en masse to everything, right? But you have to understand—

They lose their curiosity. They now have the formula.

You become very narrow-minded.

We've all worked for managers who have a formula.

Absolutely.

You know, in my company 20 years ago, this is how we did it. It's the way to do it. And, you know, when you become sure of anything— and, and that is some of the things I think in leadership, you know, the older I get, the more I figure out that I don't know anything. And that's weird People are coming to me for answers. I even invite them to write letters. But in, in early leadership, we teach you a lot about what to do and what to say. And people ask me that, like, so what do I say? And I wish I could say things like you say things, like they're very transactional. So I think you've done just some wonderful development work on what to do, how to lead, how to set clear expectations, how to give feedback. The part of leadership development that gets left on the table a lot, and the part of any learning, is how to be. Mm-hmm. And that's why, you know, in a lot of my keynotes, I give it the example of coaching somebody, and I check back in with them after they tried some new behavior. And I just said, what did you learn about yourself? And usually we leave that money on the table, that learning on the table, because most people, especially new leaders, really focus on like, what can I do in And in fact, your question is, I guess my question is, what can I do to move our team forward? And my answer is, stop worrying about doing and focus more on being. And the way I explain this sometimes, it happens so cool in my life, is I set myself— I'll back up. In junior high, there was somebody I really idolized, and she was a runner in our town. And I used to sit and eat Cap'n Crunch looking out of their picture window before I went to school, and I'd see this woman run by, and she was just— everything about her, I just adored her. She was a runner. She was the only person I know that had Nike, the swoosh, the white Nike shoes back in the day. Like, I'd never seen Nikes before. And she was super cool at basketball. She'd wear tube socks, like one, you know, those knee-highs. She'd wear one the right way, and then she'd put one inside out and fold them down. So she'd have like 6 stripes. Like, she was fashionable. She was a runner. I idolized her. So when people would ask me what I wanted to be when I grow up, I seriously would be like, I want to be a runner. Like, not the president. I just wanted to be a runner. So I couldn't wait. I went out for junior high track, and, uh, he did the time test, and I'm like out there running my heart out, and he called me over, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. The coach called me over first, and he said to me, he said, you know, I'm so glad you're on the track team. I'm like, I am too. Like, I'm gonna be the next national champion. He goes, you know, we have good runners, but we don't win a lot of the track meets. But I really think you in the field, like doing field events, you'll really put some points on the board. And I'm like, what? I want to be a runner, not a shot putter. Right. I'm not a thrower, right? And if you see pictures of me in junior high, I'm kind of like exactly what I am now. And he's thinking, he's like, you're not built as a runner. I was devastated. I wanted to be a runner. So I had this thing my whole life. Every New Year's I would be like, okay, my New Year's resolution is I'm gonna be a runner. So I wouldn't think anything about how I needed to be or my mindset or any of that. I would focus on what I needed to do and what I needed to have. So I would start with what I need to have. I would buy cool running clothes and cool running gear, and I needed to have a runner's journal, a subscription to Runner's Magazine, and And like, have you ever started like a self-help program and you just feel so good and exhausted after buying something? You're like, well, I'll save the running for another day. And then it was all about what I need to do. And I need to do, you know, like speed training and take my own lunch and exercises. My lists were long. And as you might guess, I never really got to that being a runner part. I would start and then never complete because what are the odds you can have all of that In one package on one day. So I was giving a talk and I was telling the story about wanting to be a runner. A woman came up to me and she's like, "Well, I coach women runners. If you want to be a runner, just go run." I'm like, "Well, I won't make it very far." She goes, "Yeah, well then walk and then run some more." Long story short, she starts picking me up and she's like, "Let's go run." And I'm like, "How long are I thought we're gonna look at a PowerPoint or something the first day?" She's like, "No, we're going running." I'm like, how long? She's like, 3 miles, a little junk run. I'm like, I can't run. And she's like, well, how do you know? When'd you last try? And she started working on my mind. She's like, do you want to run a marathon? I'm like, sure. I'm like, how long's the marathon? 2 days later, she came and she's like, we're gonna run 5 miles today. I'm like, I can't run 5 miles. She's like, well, then run 1 mile 5 times. Like, just— she started small, but she started working in a big way on— That's amazing. How I cured myself running, how my mind played tricks on me, my fear, my anxiety, my identity. Long story short, she really worked on my being. And what I realized— and I ran marathons— is that when I really got into my being, the frantic part of what I needed to do and have fell away. Mm-hmm. My lists— I just needed running clothes, which I had tons of them. I used them as pajamas. and shoes. And I didn't need to do that much, just follow a simple program. Life got so simple, and I didn't have to have to ask questions like, what do I do? Once I got really clear about the being part. Does that make sense? Yeah. Long story, but I think that's where I want you to start. I want you to not focus on what do I do next to get these people aligned with me. I want you to focus on who could I be that was the most inviting person that— the person who facilitated innovation, who set non-negotiables, who didn't care about being liked, but who's inclusive.

Right. It's a very open position to be in, right, rather than being closed off. And again, you know, in almost every case when we encounter a fear-based reaction from someone else, it's because we're putting out a fear-based reaction to them.

Yeah, we invite their frequency. Exactly right. In fact, I've met some masters that you can tell they're changing their frequency because yours has changed. Like, they're working on you.

Exactly. And in this case here, if you walk into the room and you're nervous about how your team's gonna perceive you and you have all these stories running in the back of your mind, there are subtleties to the human experience that people pick up on that even if it's not overt, if you're— even if you're— you have an even tone of voice and you seem to be saying things that are very collaborative and very supportive, there's that undercurrent there. People pick it up and they perceive it as disingenuous. So, I think again, going back to what your motives are, who are you as a leader? Have you even sat with yourself? If you're talking about in terms of doing rather than being, we always put the proverbial cart before the horse, right? Like, what are the actions I need to take without having the self-awareness of who we are? Yeah. When we figure out who we we are, it becomes a lot easier to figure out what to do.

It really does. And a lot of times, if we're in fear, as Brené Brown talks about, we armor up, and people can tell. And so you can't maybe change whether you're in fear or not. You're a new leader,

right?

It's that vulnerability of saying, you know, I just need to let you know I'm anxious. And so I think that's maybe where disconnect is to start, is you're coming in with a lot of confidence. I've read some books, I've done this development, and and let's make this happen. And it's great to have hopes and dreams, but it's also team building to say, and I also don't know everything, and I don't know my way, and I need you team members, and I, I'm not gonna impose this on— their biggest fear, it sounds like, although it was information that came third party, their biggest fear is that she's gonna unilaterally like change some things. Now, for you leaders out there who tend to be people pleasers and you need to just change what's good for the organization. That goes back to what Stephen's talking about. If your motives are good, you have to make hard decisions and just lead sometimes because we're working for the potential of the organization, not people's personal preferences. Right. But there's also places that you can come in unilateral and, and perhaps are trying to compensate for Well, you have great knowledge, you don't have integrated experience. And the people want to compensate knowledge because that's safe to get. I can sit in a room and read a book on relationships, right? Right. I feel so evolved. But when I go get in a relationship, right, or a friendship, or— then it all falls apart. Right. So knowledge and all that you've gotten, and I'm proud of you for doing this, you've really invested in yourself. Knowledge is pretty safe to get. I suppose there's some lack of safety if it's blowing your mind or something, but the application of knowledge is the most vulnerable place you'll ever be. And so sometimes you just gotta, you know, not pretend that you're not vulnerable.

It's a double-edged sword, right? And that we see that sort of personal development or spiritual practice almost perverted in a sense, right, or twisted. In a sense, because people will buy— I've met countless people who have every self-help book, every personal development book, every career book you could possibly imagine, and yet they're reliving the same challenges over and over. They've gone to every seminar, they've done everything, right? You have to integrate these things experientially. Reading a book, it just— that's sort of the information gathering stage, but what you do with that information going forward is what's ultimately That's the best stuff. Right? And again, the other thing I want to say to the, to the writer of the email too is that we should never take ownership for other people's reactions.

Absolutely. It's not their business.

Again, going back to intentions, going back to the place that you're coming from and why you're doing what you're doing and the way you're cultivating the team that you are and the decisions that you're making. If you really believe in your heart of hearts that you're coming from the best place in terms of the organizational's best interest and the team's best interest, then you, you can't take responsibility for someone's unconscious reaction or fear-based reaction to what you're doing, right? You can't do that, that— because that's ultimately just going to inhibit you from being a leader.

Yeah, well, and then again, instead of using your information sources that are true, once you start trying to people-please or read the environment or take responsibility for that, you get farther away from your authenticity. So I think if we like wrapped this up, I think my final kind of answer to this is I would invite you to begin with a self-reflective sorting process. And it's some list-making. Who are you? Who do you want to be as a leader? So list number 1, who are you? Who do you want to be as a leader? List number 2, like What are your biggest fears? What motives do you find when you move out of just wanting to be a good leader? Like, where are you trying to control? What motives do you have? Like, what are you expecting from other people? What are you needing them to do and be? Like, just do some sorting and really— like, your fears, take a look at that list. You know, fear is false events appearing real. So do some sorting on your beingness. Just observe and notice and love it all. Love it all, because you're gonna find some messy stuff in there.

Compassion for yourself.

Compassion for yourself. And then really notice and let go of your need for love, approval, and appreciation from other people. Now, that doesn't give you a license to be offensive, but that's what Stephen's talking about. Like, let that go. Some leaders just make some hard decisions. So if you're clear on who you are and you're letting go of your need for these people to like do it your way and come along with you, you're starting to clear out a bunch of space for how we will be together. And that's the creative work I think that you need to do. Absolutely. So here's my goals for the area, here's what I'm expecting from other areas, here's what the organization requires, and you've let go enough that where you've actually left some space there to say, and now let's co-create together. But leave space there so that people can trust that when you say there's space there, they don't come in and then you trump on them. Because a lot of people who get panicky and controlling, they go, I really want an open dialogue, and then they jump and correct you and steer you in a direction and fog you and just do all this stuff. The best thing a leader can do is Have set non-negotiables, but be brave enough to just hold space and time and conversation. And my mom was really great at that. She just was like, well, let's keep thinking. Like, let's— and so when I'm saying that, she just popped into my head about that. So I think get really clear, observe yourself, focus on your own being, because if you can walk into a room with very different energy, you open up. Tons more possibility. And I think your energy that you're using right here is really limiting the possibilities of other people's responses.

I totally agree.

And you may find a year from now that you can only work with the willing. And then I just go ask people, like, what's your willingness to get on board with this? What's your willingness? And if they aren't willing, then that's a whole other question. But this is too new and too fresh, and your energy has been too inconsistent. To expect people to have a final answer about whether they're willing to work with you or not, it may— you may have given them a little bit of an intense ride.

Yeah, and I think assuming guilt for decisions that weren't yours, right? So if there are other people in the organization that were vying for this position and you were the one that was chosen, why should you feel guilty about it? That was senior management's decision. They obviously thought for the benefit Or the good of the organization, that you are going to be the best choice. Make no, make no apologies for that.

Stand confidently in that, but also don't assume that other people are poor losers, right? It could have been somebody brought in from the outside, or it could have been one of them, and they're still like, I'm not sure, you know, how to go forward with this. So this is a time to have space, open being, Calm down, relax. Your intensity, man, you are a driver. I love that about you. I'd love you on my team. But even on my team as a driver, we have to tell a lot of people who are big drivers, like, simmer down. It doesn't make any sense, but sometimes you got to go slow to go fast.

Yeah. I mean, enthusiasm can easily become unbridled, right? And it can come off abrasive.

And controlling. And you get in other people's space.

Exactly. Exactly. So again, it's a balance, just like everything that we've been talking about. It's a harmonious balance between being clear on how you want to lead but leaving enough space to be collaborative with your team.

The big and. That's why leadership is so complex, is the big and. So, Steven, thank you for joining me. And I look— tomorrow's Ditch the Drama Tour, we have 2 more cities that we're coming to, Denver and Indianapolis. So if you haven't signed up for the Ditch the Drama tour, you are missing out. It is full of— I'm taking a look at some of our main one-liners, like the core of our philosophy, but talking about it in ways people haven't really heard about it before. It's kind of unscripted. And then we are gonna take really amazing questions like this from our audience, but then Steven and I are gonna be coaching some people live. Some folks get to come up here on stage with Stephen and I, and we are gonna coach them in the moment. And so it's gonna be a spectacular day. Plus, we're rolling out tons of new merchandise. Also, all the t-shirts— you always write me and say, I want that t-shirt— we got them. They're in the shop, in the store online, but they're also live at these tours. So shameless plug for what you should be doing in a few months. You need to be in Denver or you need to be in Indianapolis. We would love to have you here. Yeah, come to the concert. Come to the Exactly. We do a lot of things out there to try and help you, but come to the concert. So until next week, thank you, Steven. You will be back. We have some fun stuff in store, but we can't talk about it yet.

Can't wait.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman.