S4E10: Becoming a Boundary Boss with Terri Cole, MSW, LCSW

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Sy Wakeman. Welcome everyone to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. As you know, in this particular series, I am working to bring to all of you that which will help as we create a new workplace and world place. And good news, lots of things are falling apart. Those of you that listen know I love the falling apart because I think it really reveals to us where we can grow next, where we're called to evolve next. And in working with many of you in group, individual training, and virtual keynoting, I hear a lot about, Cy, I'm feeling very burnt out. And Too many think that burnout is a predetermined condition we will suffer from given our circumstances. And unfortunately, that's really giving up agency. It's really giving up your work in the matter. And I am thinking, and I know my guest is thinking, that burnout is more connected to things like boundaries. And this last year and a half has really revealed to many of us the exact state, the, the current state of our own boundaries. And I just want you to be thinking about, you know, are you people pleasing? Are you saying yes when you mean no? Are you overgiving and calling it generosity? I mean, do you not even think saying no is an option? There's a lot of you I coach that aren't asking for help, or you're excusing really poor behavior. Folks, all of that, avoiding those tough conversations, that's boundary work. And if you don't have great boundaries, you're gonna be exhausted, if not heading towards burnout. And that is exactly why I'm so excited to have someone who has helped me over the years with my boundaries through her books and her Instagram account and her work with Danielle LaPorte. And that is Terri Cole. I'm bringing Terri Cole to you, and she is a licensed social worker, psychotherapist, and really a global relationship expert. And she's worked over 20 years with corporations, with, you know, CEOs, with celebrities, with many, many folks, mainly in the work of boundaries. And she just came out with this amazing book called Boundary Boss. I read it in one day. I have the whole thing underlined. I had to stop underlining. And so, Terri, I am so grateful to you to come on the podcast.

Sai, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

You are welcome. You are welcome. You have been talking about boundaries for a long time, and I must confess, I, I too have some background in the field of social work. I'm not a licensed social worker, but I assumed when I left counseling, being a counselor, and I went into leadership, that I would have people who just came Well-equipped in knowing about boundaries and knowing about how to curate a life that protected their best work. But I found that is completely untrue. And in fact, want to send everybody through codependency treatment. We've missed out on this basic information. So lead us in, talk to us about boundaries and the state of our boundaries and, and maybe some of the basics.

Well, let's first talk about why we don't know.

There you go.

Because you are correct that, you know, you made an assumption that people would know. And here's the reality: people don't know. And why we don't know is we were not taught. And so what ends up happening is that disordered boundaries and this sense of the way things are supposed to be, we learn, right? Growing up, from our family of origin. We all have what I call a downloaded boundary blueprint. And this basically is a paradigm or like a schema in your mind, your unconscious mind, that's like, hey, this is how you're supposed to be in the world. And a lot of those schemas had really corrupted information in it. And that is why you find people not knowing, because we were taught, especially if you were raised as a woman, taught that being nice, you know, saying yes when you wanna say no is nice. You know, being nice was more important than being truthful, without a doubt. Like, being nice was like the highest virtue. So there's a million and 5 reasons why we're super confused about boundaries and, you know, what they are and how to do them. So that's the beginning. So now where do you wanna go from here?

Well, and I was gonna say traditional leadership philosophy, I think, feeds on those of us that have this disordered boundary, this blueprint, because leadership, if not done intentionally and consciously, can be a lot about over-functioning and excusing poor behavior and, and all of that. I also want to just interact with that, that I thought I had kind of dug into my own personal life and done that blueprint and moved forward differently, but I keep finding life is an experiential exercise. Like, every new situation or every new relationship, like, I get additional practice on understanding whether that blueprint for me is working or not working. So I think it's an ongoing, ongoing piece of work.

Totally agree.

So we get downloaded with really poor information. No one teaches us. So if you had to begin that teaching about, like, Boundaries 101, first of all, like, What do we even mean when we talk about boundaries? Is it telling people what to do? 'Cause I know that's not the case, but a lot of people think, I'm gonna set a boundary and thereby control your behavior, and they're chronically disappointed.

Indeed. And you will be chronically disappointed if that's what you think. I define boundaries, you know, and why boundaries for me is that I was a boundary disaster in my young life and it created a lot of pain. And then I was in entertainment for X number of years and that was not a hotbed of mental health with terribly blurred boundaries between the personal and the professional. And then I became a psychotherapist and I was like, wow, once I got into the trenches with my clients, I was very clear that this lack of knowledge was an absolute epidemic. And so that was why I became very interested in my, my own healing, right? That helps. Yeah. But really seeing these incredibly successful, highly capable, mostly women

in

my private practice having a lot of pain. So it was like they could have— their boundaries seemed to be good in their work life. But like you said, a lot of times that's really just high-functioning codependency. I name it. Yeah. Where yes, you're really good at it, but you are really doing all of that at the expense of yourself, which we can get into later. But let's just get the basic definition. My definition is having healthy boundaries means that you know your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, and you have the ability to communicate what those things are when you want.

I love that definition. It's so simple. And I see a lot of us there, high-functioning codependents, like we don't even know sometimes, we're so indecisive what our preferences are or what our deal breakers are. I would add to your definition, if I can be so bold, and the— Okay. Courage to joyfully accept the consequences of stating those. Because I know at times I work with others and I've worked on myself where I've stated those and the result is not what we wanted and those things fall away. You know, people that aren't willing to live up to some of our deal breakers. And so I think there's also an element in being able to do that, but also being able to see the consequences through and trust the universe that that's meant to be.

I agree. I would frame it, if we may, that we don't want exactly what you said, Sy. Like, this is not a lever to control others with.

Yes.

The reason I framed boundaries the way that I did is because you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, when you think about those things, those are the elements that make you uniquely you. They actually are the things that make you, you. So it's valuable to share them regardless of how the person receives them. So it isn't suddenly a lost share or boundary request if the other person doesn't acquiesce to what you want. This is how you negotiate in relationships. This is how you negotiate in business. But people personally will not know who you are authentically if you do not prioritize and share your preferences and your desires, the things that aren't working for you and things that are an absolute non-negotiable deal breaker. How can the people in our lives authentically love us if we really don't allow them to authentically know us?

And that is so important. I love that you centered in on that because a lot of people who are boundary disasters, and we can talk about what that means, often don't feel loved for who they are. They feel loved for what they do, or they fear that that's why they're loved. And it's such a good point. You make a comment in your book that you can't live an authentic and fulfilling life if you're not able to tend to your own boundaries, that the other alternative is, you know, you'll abandon yourself to not be abandoned by others. And I think that's such an important piece, that part of being authentic is not only knowing that about yourself, but being willing to share that with, with Mm-hmm. Boundaries, you know, are, are more internally protective. For me, they really protect my space to do the creative work I'm meant to do. And that really is the price I pay when I'm, you know, overserving others, is I don't give proper attention to that part, which is really fulfilling for me. You talked about being a boundary disaster. You owned it for yourself. I'll own it for myself. And I can't say I was and then got healed, as I say, There are times I think, oh, I'm so evolved, and then I meet, you know, my next match that reveals to me the rest of what I can— what I can take a look at. How— if, if my listeners are thinking, am I a boundary disaster, do you have a quick kind of mental checklist that says you might be if you suffer from these things?

Well, part of it is just scan. Do an inventory quickly of your relationships, and then think about where are you holding resentment? Where do you feel unseen? Where are you frustrated? Where are you angry? Because usually that will lead us to areas or interactions in our relationships or our professional lives that really need our attention. A boundary has been crossed, a need is going unmet. And again, if you're not talking about it, nobody is responsible for you getting your needs met but you, simply because they can't be. And because it's, you know, it's an inside job. And being a boundary boss is an inside job. But that would be the first thing is, where are you resentful? And that will lead you to a place that probably needs some kind of a boundary conversation.

That's a great guide. I have heard and often ask myself and others to, you know, sit with your resentment or anger until it tells you its name. And I think that many of us numb our feelings. You know, we work a hard day, and instead of paying attention to where that resentment is or what those feelings are, you know, we get into some self-numbing just to kind of keep going. I know for a while on my left, I kept myself so busy that I really didn't have that information. It really took a scan to sit down and say, what am I furious about? And to stop, you know, thinking that was somebody else's work to do.

Yeah, I think that, you know, that's a great point. We learn about boundaries from, you know, where we grew up, family of origin, family culture, country, gender, all the things. But that's good news because it means that a lot of this we can unlearn as well. And that's really what we're talking about. If you can, maybe, um, if listeners can frame becoming fluent in the language of boundaries, right? You wouldn't expect to be fluent in a language that nobody taught you. So you can always get better, as you're saying, right? We feel like we learn something and then we're like, oh, but why is it so challenging to do it with this person? Or why, when I'm with, um, you know, in, with people in, in positions of authority? Do I find my boundaries go away? Well, these are all places that you can delve in and have a deeper understanding of self. But just know that if you don't know about boundaries, you are A, not alone. I wrote a whole frigging book on it because nobody knew. And you can learn, which is really important. And this of course does impact leadership. It does impact What kind of a boss you are, what kind of a worker you are, all of those things. Because it isn't like we don't bring disordered boundaries into the workplace.

We certainly do. And once we can have healthier boundaries as a leader, I think it's so important that then we can help others rewrite their blueprints. Because we complain a lot about, oh, these employees came in expecting this or entitled to that. And if we feed right into that rather than have them experience and our role modeling of our own kind of moving through the world with skillful boundaries, it's one of the biggest ways we can help develop others is help them remap their blueprint to what works better, what creates an environment where people can bring their best stuff to work, their most evolved self.

Yeah. You know, I think that that's true. And I think that especially when it comes to any kind of workplace culture, that there are so many things that we can do in a proactive way to set others up to succeed. And of course, which means if you're setting the team up to succeed or you're setting the department up to succeed, you're setting the company up to succeed, which is being so transparent. About the expectations.

Mm-hmm.

Letting them know, this is how we do it. These are the, you know, the days that we do this. This is how long you can expect to wait to hear back from me. This is how long we expect to not wait to get whatever it is. Be really clear on deadlines, on scope of the work, on the best way that they should communicate with you if you are the leader. Then you're telling them. My whole team, you know, we do everything by voice note because that's the way I want to do it. 'Cause I don't wanna have carpal tunnel for the rest of my life. It's too much communication. If someone on my team doesn't like that, then they don't really wanna be on my team because that's not like a debatable thing, right? It's, I'm the boss, I own the company, this is how we do it. But people know that in their interview.

Mm-hmm.

This is the culture. This is how we work. This is how we interact. This is what's expected on— you don't work on weekends unless we're in a launch. And then, you know, we get so specific because you can anticipate so many disasters. You can avoid so much loss of time, energy, money by being very proactive with boundaries, having clean Agreements instead of silent agreements or waiting for people to make mistakes and then having to deal with it.

I think that's so important. In Reality-Based Leadership, we talk about non-negotiables. And you don't need 1,000. I mean, that's control. But you need the basics. And you call those deal breakers. And then we also have our preferences and being upfront with what those non-negotiables are and not apologizing, they're by definition non-negotiable from the interview process forward is vital. And I think at times people have a form of people pleasing that comes to like, oh, I want to include everyone's work style and everyone's personality and everyone's approach. And I want consensus. And they don't realize that without those very transparent, deal-breakers, that they're really gonna— they're gonna create havoc, which then leads into, you know, good conversation and feedback. I talk to people like, you don't have to get confrontational if you just stay conversational. And in your book, you talked about that. Like, if you are able to set a boundary and make a request for how this could go in the future, you know, you're first-time offenders. It really is an easy conversation. that you share, you know, what you hoped for and what you got for results and what your request is going forward. And chronic offenders, a little bit different. And those boundary destroyers are just people that you need to, you know, performance manage out of your company. They're people who are chronically, you know, um, violating kind of those norms. Do you want to talk a little bit about, um, When you have some boundaries you've stated, how to move differently through different situations? I think some people get really concrete in their boundaries, and a first-time offender can get, you know, humiliated versus, you know, somebody who's pretty chronic can find inconsistent consequences.

I find that, yes. So, so we don't, you know, not every boundary request holds the same importance to us, which is why they're in different categories. And not every person is a boundary bully because they haven't been able to read your mind.

Right.

So it's really important that we put people in— I teach you in the book, we put people in categories, right? A boundary first-timer is someone who, whether you've had the thought about the boundary 8,000 times, if you've never actually used words, And made a boundary request, which is as easy as, I'd like to make a simple request that if you're gonna be more than 10 minutes late, you text me and let me know. Let's just say, right? It can literally be as simple as that. And that language itself is from Nonviolent Communication, Marshall Rosenberg's work, because really everything is a simple request, whether the person acquiesces to it, whether it makes a difference. But once you go on record— As making your request known. Okay? So now, okay, now we're going to, you're gonna let me know if you're gonna be late. If the person continues to, and let's say they agree to that, right? They say, yes, I'm gonna let you know. Let's say that they then are late again and don't say anything about it. You say, hey, we had this conversation about 3 weeks ago and you committed that you would let me know if you were gonna be late and you didn't let me know that you were gonna be late tonight. And it's disappointing to me, or it's upsetting to me because I could have been doing other things while you were not here when you were supposed to be. So I'm gonna reiterate my request that you let me know. The person— and then if it happens again, because here's the thing, when we're changing a boundary dance, It takes a minute, right? Because the other person, we all have our habituated dances, whether it's in business, whether it's in personal life, around I do this, you do that, right? We have a lot of silent agreements about how we're gonna interact with each other. But if then that person goes on to again, not let you know, then you add a consequence because now you've gone from boundary first-timer. To repeat offender. And with a repeat offender, the boundary that's appropriate for us to draw has some kind of consequence attached to it. So, but you, you know, you warn the person, so if you don't let me know again, then I'm going to leave the restaurant, eat dinner without you, whatever, whatever the consequence would be that would be commensurate to the boundary violation. Right? So we're not gonna overreact, we're not gonna underreact, we're gonna come up with what makes sense. And then you see if that changes. And really nothing is more impactful than changing our own behavior and actually taking action. You know what I mean?

Exactly. And the consequence is not a consequence that they have to, you know, take action. It's, I will wait 15 minutes and then Go ahead and order, or it's something we can carry out on. And what you just described is just peaceful performance management, peaceful setting expectations, and providing feedback. And it's something I consistently see organizations give people tool after tool after tool to do. But until you can know, as you said, your deal breakers, your preferences, your desires, your wants, and communicate them effectively, You're really stuck. And that's why I think people have difficulty with performance management is they just— the real difficulty is in their boundary work.

Yeah. As a leader and as someone who, if you don't like confrontation, if you have the disease to please, if you're a people pleaser, it is really hard to be an effective leader.

Mm-hmm.

And you can still want people to like you, right? That's, I think that's very human. You can still be a nice person. It's possible to do that. And the more masterful you become at the language of boundaries, at having more difficult conversations, you'll see that you can always do it with kindness. We can always start something with, even if we're just saying no to something, if people are inviting us to do something and we don't want to, a lot of times People will say yes when they really wanna say no and either find a way to cancel at the last minute or go, but go begrudgingly. And I think that—

That's so passive-aggressive.

Well, it is. And you're like, now you're burdening that person with your toxic energy in the room or your negative energy where this is all happening in your mind. Like, we're all volunteers, you know, like friendships are voluntary. Like, you don't have to do anything. And it's within you. This is the part of it that's the inside job is understanding, hmm, if you're someone who has a tendency to give the insta-yes, is it, what is that about for you, right? We, and we know childhood, there's lots of reasons, but you can put, do a, what I call a pattern interrupt. I mean, other people call it that too, but you know, you can interrupt the pattern of giving an insta-yes just by buying time.

Mm-hmm. Let me think about it.

Right, exactly. Just don't say yes. And you can do— those of you listening, you can do an experiment for the next 7 days. You're not allowed to immediately say yes to anything if you have a tendency towards saying yes out of obligation or pressure or fear. And you can say, hey, I'll get back to you on that tomorrow. I need to check with my partner, my roommate, whoever. Let me look at my calendar and see. Thank you so much for thinking of me. Um, I'll let you know in 2 days. And we don't even have to have a reason why we're not giving them an instant answer, right? We can just have a couple of phrases ready to go. 'Cause it's so much easier to say no if you haven't already said yes.

It is. It leaves you that space. And then, you know, I think that's the key I teach a lot of people is you can come back and say, gosh, I gave it, um, you know, thought, I talked to my partner and dinner won't work. on Friday for us. And so it was really nice to be asked and not have to explain or lie or just say, you know, dinner's something we decided not to do on Friday. Um, and I think that's so important. We talk a lot about the part of our mind, we call it ego. My listeners understand that. And the ego loves polarity. I either have to say yes or be mean rather than I can— you know, many things can be true. I can be Very kind while I'm, you know, saying no to that. And I think it's just something we have to get skilled at. Scripting is important. In your book, you have scripting throughout the book, but a beautiful chapter on scripting that I think if people can, you know, just come to have a few phrases that come to them more easily, that they almost have memorized some wording for it, it helps as well, as simple as, as that sounds.

Oh, it's so true. Because so much of the time, my therapy clients would say, I was right there, I was about to say something. And then I just didn't know what to say. And so remembering that, especially if you're someone who leans towards people pleasing, or, you know, approval, validation from outside, you can— and especially if the person asking you to do something is someone you like, you can always start with the positive. You can always say, I love that you always think of us. And actually, we are unavailable, but I hope you guys have a great time.

That's perfect. That's perfect. And I think it helps you say it with confidence, which then people tend to pick up on. Yeah. And, and also consistency. I know when I first started setting boundaries way back when that I just had kind of a broken record response to a few people, and that consistency just really helped them understand this was truly a new path that I was going to stay with. And I think that's important. Um, as well. Now here's where I was naive and where you really helped me. So I did a lot of work, and of course, you know, as we go through social work, um, we get a lot of training on our own boundaries, and you get to see your own hypocrisy in that. And, um, but I was really good at setting boundaries with, um, with most people because I just had this assumption that most people, when you give them good information, make good decisions. And if you're kind while you're doing it, and felt pretty evolved. And then I got into a relationship that, as a high-functioning codependent, which we have to talk about, I, I was completely unprepared for what I would call death by a thousand compromises, where I just thought, you know, gosh, well, you know, I guess that's not that big a deal and I can give there. And, and all of a sudden I was in a situation where he aggressively claimed like big chunks of my work and my business and my life and benefited very little. And I'm thinking, how can I, as a successful woman who does lots of work on herself, like, end up here? And I can tell you, people are like, oh, he's a narcissist. He's— I'm like, I'm not into labels. He doesn't really qualify for those diagnoses. And when I read your chapter on Boundary Destroyer, it gave me a name and it put a type of closure on that experience that was profound for me. There are some folks, not many, there are some folks that are boundary absolute destroyers. And I would get asked in presentations, they go, what about, you know, this person? And I'm like, well, let's work with the masses. I kind of dismissed that because as an over-functioner, I thought, you know, I have good boundaries, so I can have boundaries for all of us. I have good mental health, I can have good mental health for all of us. And I totally got my graduate lesson In this work. But talk a minute about boundary destroyers. I think it's important for people, because most leaders keep them on way too long and really think they can fix them or work with them. Usually, they're good technically, or they're really smart, but they are horrid for the team.

They are. Well, anyone who falls into the category of a boundary destroyer, or someone who is Really emotionally manipulative. And yes, that can, of course, that can be someone with narcissistic personality disorder, but it can be a lot of other people too. And so it's someone who cannot and will not, either cannot or will not take into consideration other people, will not respect a boundary, has so many tricks up their sleeve that are so compelling. Um, to manipulate and get their way. I mean, what a boundary destroyer wants is what they want regardless of what anyone else wants. So—

That's not reciprocal. Most of us are assuming when we're working on these boundaries with other people, it's like reciprocal process. I wanna give you the guidebook of how to work well with me and how to live well with me and, and, um, Yeah, I think that it's important to remember that it's— they will maximize their position. Not many people. I was just shocked when I found myself in that situation. There's so many stories in your book that were fantastic, but that story that came in that chapter, I'm like, oh my goodness.

Yeah, that— it was so real. And it is so real because that's one thing that I've found with Very high, highly capable women is that they can fall victim to or be a good fit for someone like this because you're so capable. So if someone is like not happy with something, like, all right, well, we could do it this way. Like, we're innovative, we are resourceful, we get stuff done. We, you know, and so, and we're not also not used to— negative feedback. So part of what ends up happening is that part of the early-on manipulation process, and of course this is most famously referred to with narcissistic personality disorder, but it's not only used by them, is love bombing.

Yeah.

Where there is a lot of positive, and this can happen in friendships, this can happen at work, right? This is not just in romantic relationships where like everything is perfect. You're the most amazing thing. They can't live without you. You're the only one who understands them. They may be lavishing you with gifts. There's this whole process of, it might seem too good to be true. And if it does, then maybe slow it down because there's also usually an urgency around this. They wanna meet all your friends. They want you to meet your people. They're talking to you about going to a wedding with them in like 18 months from now. You're like, dude, we're on like the 3rd date. Well, how are we talking about a year and a half from now? And yet it's things that We want. And so it's very tempting to be like, ah, and then you're sort of in this cycle where that's one manipulation tactic, but there's so many others. It's not just that, it's, you know, they might show faux concern for you, right? Where they're trying to— they're— you're pointing out something that they're doing that is wrong. And they're like, babe, I'm really worried about you.

Yeah. You seem so upset. You know? Yeah.

Yep. And it's not just me, right? Then they'll bring in peer pressure. You know, Bob told me you were like this, but I didn't believe him. And now, you know, you're like, wait a minute, Bob's talking about me now too? Again, all to distract you from whatever it is that you wanted to say about what they were doing or the limit you were trying to set. They— there are all of these tactics, all this emotional manipulation has to do with, again, the other person, the boundary destroyer, running the show and wanting you to just do what they want you to do. I just want you to fit into my plan. I don't care what you want. Because really they don't have the capability. So in that chapter in particular, I really teach, I'm really teaching the reader about very compelling emotional manipulation tactics so that you can spot them. Yeah. Because it would be way better to avoid getting into a relationship with with someone like this, but also what to do if you're already in one, how to step back, create more space. Because the rules, the regular rules, right? The boundary rules of engagement don't apply to these personalities. 'Cause like you said, we make an assumption of mutuality, and that is not— that is a wrong assumption to make in relationships with boundary destroyers. Yeah.

And that was so eye-opening to me because I think those of us, especially high-functioning women— and I know I've been listening to my podcast too— but, you know, we just think that we can fix anything, solve anything, be anything. And I don't think it ever dawns on us that we've met a match, that there's just— it's— this is a whole different situation that typical rational conversations or direct communication is, is just not gonna work. There's, there's a different way out. And it's important for leaders to understand emotional blackmail and, you know, how they get into those situations. Definitely. I want to go back just a minute. Different types of boundaries. I think that people don't realize that there are many types of boundaries, whether it's, you know, physical Like, can you borrow my stuff without asking? To mental, to emotional, to, you know, what are some of the different types of boundaries? And then I want to talk a little bit about how we unpack what our blueprint is and move so we can move forward differently.

Okay, so with boundaries, right, we have physical boundaries that include sexual boundaries, which is basically how you want to be touched. How is that okay? You know, you go to some countries and people you don't know kiss you, like if you go to Spain, You know, on the cheek or whatever. Then you go to other countries and they're, you know, Norway, and they're like a handshake from a mile away because culturally those things are different. But each one of us has our own preferences around our body and the way that we are, how close we are to other people, how much alone time, you know, space we need from other people physically. So that's that. Sexually, it's all about what is okay with you. With whom, where, when to be touched, to be sexual, to be sexualized. Moving into, you have psychological boundaries, which is basically knowing what you think. It's being able to hold onto your opinion, even if other people disagree, or even if you're with other people who disagree. Not being so malleable or, you know, not being like a chameleon. When it comes to your beliefs, it's knowing who you are, but also knowing what you think. Emotional boundaries are basically how we interact in our relationships. Do we allow other people to make us feel guilty about things? Then we have disordered emotional boundaries. Do we blame other people for being disappointed in things that have happened in our life? We have disordered emotional boundaries if we're doing that. So it's knowing that you are responsible for your own happiness and that no matter what other people do, you're still responsible. So it doesn't mean that people's behavior can't make us, can't create feelings in us, like we react or respond in a particular way. But having good emotional boundaries means that you're very clear. As to what is your side of the street, what are your emotional responsibilities, and what are not. And the other person, you know, you're in a relationship and hopefully they know those things as well. And then you've already hit material boundaries, which is, do you lend your car, money, your stuff? How is your, you know, how is your apartment or your house set up? Do you ask people to take their shoes off? Those are all material boundaries. I think that's it. I think we covered them all.

Those are fantastic. And I think the emotional boundaries are important too in leadership, because a lot of times I find leaders working harder at another's success than that person is working at their own success. And just learning what's your side of the street— we call them lanes— like, what's your lane and what is somebody else's lane? So that if you're in their business, you're doing it with an invitation to help them self-reflect, or just simply helping rather than Judging. But otherwise, you know, you give the feedback and what they do with that is, is, is theirs. And, uh, you know, as you said, there'll be some consequences they'll experience. And I find for a lot of people, they don't always need to come up with consequences. So many of the people I work with are already protecting people from natural consequences. They just need to stop protecting people from the natural consequences at times rather than— You know, putting additional consequences in place, quit protecting people or dismissing poor behavior or, or those types of things.

Well, it's like a psychological defense mechanism though, right? The lies we tell ourselves.

Yeah.

To avoid having a boundary conversation is like, oh, I know, you know, he didn't mean it. He's always really stressed during the 4th quarter of the year. So when he screamed at me and did this, He didn't really mean it, so I'm not gonna say anything.

Which we get something out of. You talked about those primary and secondary gains that, you know, I avoid a conversation, I can also justify Netflix binging, and, you know, I can, you know, be a victim as I talk to other people. I mean, there's all this secondary gain to our behavior, which is a whole different topic. When I talk to people about We need to go back to go forward, and let's unpack a little bit. Like, you know, who does this remind you of, or what's familiar? How has this been like a red thread in your life? Some people are really resistant. They're like, I am not going to, you know, go to counseling for 28 years talking about my childhood. And it's so funny, that reaction, because I'm like, well, I was really asking for 20 minutes of, of unpacking. But you're really adamant that we at least need to do some origin work to just better understand with compassion how we operate today and if it, you know, is working for us. Do you want to elaborate on kind of that unpacking piece?

Sure. You know, the reality is, I mean, I have no interest in going back if there would be no Valuable reason to go back. Trust me, if there was a way to teach people how to become masterful at boundaries without going back to basically the scene of the crime, I would've figured it out already, cuz I've been teaching this for years and years and years. So keep in mind, the resistance to go back is fear, of course, but we have to go back. And so much of what I teach in the book is about how can you recognize When you are unconsciously going back, right? Where are you having a repeating boundary reality, meaning having a transference experience where you're really reacting and behaving now in a situation whose origin is long ago? I mean, if it is still impacting your life, it is something that you must look at. So I give people the 3 Qs so you can identify. It's these 3 questions for clarity. That you can identify where might you be having a transference experience, especially if you find yourself in a repeated situation. Let's say you always end up with a boss who's a screamer or a narcissist. Let's say you always end up in relationships with men or women who are emotionally unavailable, right? You know the patterns in your life, the frustrating patterns in your life.

And you can ask yourself— And you're looking for somebody in all of those

Indeed you are. So you ask the questions, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? And how or why is this behavioral dynamic, the way we're interacting, familiar to me? And if what you reveal is like, oh my God, I can't believe it. My boss reminds me of my father and I was terrified of my father when I was a kid. So now I'm terrified of my boss and I avoid him. Okay. There is a connection there. Now we question, like, but do I have any evidence that my boss is someone I should be terrified of? No, I don't. Okay. So that's a transference. Let's see, how can I be more normal with my boss? Soothe the inner child that's, you know, tell the inner child like, hey, this guy's not dad and I'm not 10, right? Like, we're all okay. But there's something really powerful in making those connections, especially where you're stuck, because that really gets in the way of creating appropriate boundaries.

It really does. And it opens up choice. And choice is the foundation of freedom and liberation, is when you can see a choice there that you didn't realize you had because you were not being intentional. And part of boundaries is willingness to look back, but also the willingness to see reality as it really is and not how we wish it would be, how we hope it will be someday. Because when we see it how it is, then we can really look at our part in making that different. I find when I work with people on some boundary work, their biggest fear is the extremes. Like, if I do this, and then they play both sides of the street, they go, I know this will happen. And it's like really helping them understand that you really don't know any of that, but you have a better chance of a more fulfilling life and relationship by at least asking directly for what you're hoping for. So,

right,

such, such great, great stuff. I, um, the book Boundary Boss, it just, it came out recently, right? Or am I the last to know? It came out this past year?

Yeah, no, it did. It came out April 20th, 2021.

I love it. I love it. Amazing book, folks. I am kind of on a crusade to Have people self-reflect on what has this last year and a half revealed to you about you. And if you're exhausted, if you're feeling overwhelmed, if you're resentful, if you're not like living this life you had hoped to live, first place to check, folks, is are you able to effectively communicate and, um, your boundaries? And do you even know what those are? And I just— it's work I really want to call people to do right now. And that's work I think we need to do anytime we are feeling less than fulfilled in life and in our relationships. Small adjustments with giving good information to other people really teaches them, like, how to be in good relationship with us. Setting a boundary isn't exiting somebody's life. It's really letting them know, this is the way I could stay and go deeper. So. Um, anything else you want to make sure we know? We're wrapping up here. We've got just a minute or so left.

Um, well, if people are interested in getting the book, I still have a whole bunch of beautiful bonuses. So if you get the book, you can buy the book and get the bonuses at boundarybossbook.com. And I also created a gift for your audience, Essential Business Boundaries for Success, because I feel like that's something A lot of us need a refresher on. Um, and you guys can get that at boundaryboss.me/noego.

Perfect. I'm hoping everyone goes out and does that. I know at times we get some free offers and they aren't rich content. I can tell you, I personally follow Terri. I've taken her online courses. I read her books. Um, I listen whenever she joins up with forces like Danielle LaPorte and other folks. Go out there and give them that address one more time.

boundaryboss.me/noego.

Perfect. I want listeners— I always give you assignments. I want you to go out and get involved in all of the free gifts. I personally, when I got the book, I got all of those bonuses and they have been fantastic. Um, recently listened in. You did something with millennials that was amazing. Um, and so there's just a lot out there. Go follow— find Terri, follow Terri. And Terri, I want to thank you for the work you're doing. I think we all thought like, oh, back in the '80s everybody figured this out when we all looked at boundaries. It is time for us to do a major boundary revolution, um, in order to be happy. Right on. So I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. It was great.

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Sy Wakeman.