S4E16: Best Retention Strategy Ever - Go Deep to Build Devotion on Teams

This is the No Ego Podcast, where we ditch the drama, end entitlement, and transform your workplace. I'm Cy Wakeman. Welcome everyone to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. One of the things I love about doing this podcast is it gives me an excuse, reason, compelling reason to connect with some of my absolute favorite people, because our schedules get busy and we might not make that happen if we weren't guests on each other's podcasts. So today's special treat, I'm bringing you the most positive person in the world, my definition. I elected him that— Rob Holman. And some of you know Rob if you listen to my podcast or his podcast, which you should listen to his podcast. It's amazing. He is this catalyst that has a company called Inside Out Leadership. Yes. Our philosophies align so much. Evolve yourself so you can love others freely. And I'm so thrilled to have him back on. And this guy's prolific. He is an author, and he has 2 bestsellers. He's got another one that is out that you're going to hear about. It's called Move the Needle. I love it. But welcome, Rob. Enough gushing about you. It's so good to connect.

I think I'm blushing, Sy. I'll tell you, I get red, but usually that's because of the passion that I have. But you totally embarrassed me now. And I am totally overjoyed and honored to be with you yet again. So thanks for having me.

It's so funny. I think when we do get together, like, publicly, like, at National Speakers Association, like, we scare people because our energies together, we're like, the world's fine, let's go. Like, like, uh—

It's true. You, you, when the stars do align, when you get people, as we know, like-minded, like-hearted, your reality-based leadership, my inside-out leadership, we may use slightly different language, but at the heart and the core of it, were really about the same thing, which you've already emphasized. So I appreciate you so much. You're truly a gift. So great to be with you.

Oh, thank you. You know, and a lot of people, when they are approaching initially bringing in a program as a program, and they're like, well, which one's better, this or that? I just steer them away. I'm like, find a mindset, a philosophy, a needle you want to move in the organization. And then don't make it about one program that can be the silver bullet. Like, introduce your people to many ways of saying and seeing the same thing. Like, how many different ways can, can we bring this up? And man, people are in need right now. I don't know about you, but I'm talking to leaders, and they're tired, they're scared. And then they get this report about the Big Resignation, and they're like, un— Oh my! Believable, which I'm a little concerned about self-fulfilling prophecies. It's like, when we take a macro statistic, like all these people are leaving their jobs, I'm like, but on the micro, you know, is that your company or your team? So let's not take other people's word for what our reality is. Because it's almost like people think external circumstances predetermine their outcomes or their results. And leadership is where we break up with external circumstances and say, given our circumstances, we can still have the climate we desire, the results we desire. So what is your take or your part of the solution on this whole major, like, resignation? Some people are just like, well, it's gonna happen. I should, you know, help people go. I'm like, don't, don't give in. But what's your take on that, Mr. Positive?

Yeah, I'll tell you. No, don't let people go. Not at all. I think there's a tremendous opportunity right I really do. That's not gonna surprise you, Cy, hearing me say that, or your listeners that have heard me before. But in any, in any challenge where the temptation is people leaving, I guess that's the way it's gonna be, let's pack in the bags a little bit. No, not so fast. Opportunity in big capital letters that we can actually start treating people and leading people and having true human-to-human interaction. Yeah. Right? And we know as leaders, it starts with us. Let's be more present with myself so that I can actually give what I got to other people. And the more present I can be, the more of that I can give away. So, the opportunity begins in us and with us.

Yeah.

Thus, we can start serving other people within our sphere of influence and on our teams in a much more effective way. And I think it really speaks to learning how to be present.

It really is. And to answer the wake-up call, I couldn't agree with you more because a lot of folks, um, are so externally identified. They're like, well, this is happening in my world and this is what's going to happen. And it's like, no, wait, how are you moving through what's happening? It's so counterintuitive to say if I have a problem on the outside, I've got to go to the inside to, um, get myself presence-centered, evolved, um, focused so that as I go to the outside, I'm coming in my highest level of consciousness. And that's the thing people want to look for, like, what's the transactional solution to this? And instead I'm like, what's the evolved response to this? Like, how are you going to evolve yourself? Good. You know, when I was in counseling, a lot of the times that people were struggling when they're in their marriage, the cry for help was, I might not want to be married anymore. And I think about If people are like, well, she said she didn't want to be married, so, you know, let her go. I'm like, no, you gotta, you gotta fight for what you value, what you desire, and, and fight not to control other people, but to use this as a wake-up call of reflection to say, you know, help me understand what you're looking for. And what are your reasons for going? Well, I need more flexibility. Let's really look at if I can focus on my people. But a lot of people right now are focused on processes, aren't they? They're like, nope.

They are!

I need you back at work full-time because that is the process we have. It's like, I find people— and there are reasons to bring people back together. There are legitimate reasons. But I find people just defaulting more than ever to what's the policy? This isn't me. What's the policy? You have to. HR says. Like, I'm finding people stuck step down and blame or defer to, that's the process, instead of creatively thinking, how can we work together? Let's have an invitation to talk about what makes sense, working together physically at times and not at times.

No, I couldn't agree more. I think even the buzz phrase out there within HR, as you and I are very accustomed to, and the world of business, both non- and for-profit, is the employee experience. Let's, let's give some autonomy, financial incentives, extra vacation time, et cetera, et cetera. If we're not careful, those easily then become the exterior things you're referring to.

Yeah.

Right? Trying to get into the heart, into the mind of the worker, the team member, the employee. I'm not against those things. I think some of those incentives certainly are good. They're better than nothing, as we know, Sy.

Yeah. But they make it so transactional. They're like, you're a commodity. I'll pay you more than, you know, X, Y, and Z, it still objectifies the person rather than humanizes the person. Like pay, I want more money. That's fine. But—

Not a bad thing.

Yeah. But if we overrotate on buying people's love, on if they're attaching to the pay and not to the leader, like we overrotate, we'll build engagement, perhaps. But if we don't offset that with accountability, which is like, let's come together and work through hard things and Build a relationship. Engagement without accountability builds entitlement. And I'm so scared that our tactics in winning this war on talent right now are all about buying people's love instead of earning people's love.

That is so spot on. 1,000%. And I think to get back into the employee experience and people and leaders starting to weigh heavily on those outside things, trying to get on the inside. Again, not bad entirely, but there's just a better way. One that you and I both promote. What would it actually look like if you start really appreciating and valuing a team member or your team members as a whole, learning what inspires them, learning what makes them come alive, their passion areas, the purpose. You know, in other words, personal development that leads and bridges the gap into professional development. Let's not jump right quick into professional development without looking at what ignites and inspires people. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that every time we get together with our team members, it has to turn into a full-fledged counseling session. However, it does mean and require taking a deeper and closer look at what it means to be present. And, Cy, I've got to get a shout out to my wife because you had mentioned about marriage counseling a few minutes ago. My wife's birthday is today. So, if my wife is listening, come on. It's total celebration in the Holman home. It's like birthday central, the month of November. It's absolutely amazing. But my wife, and I don't know if you've ever heard this, I'll keep this tight, but my wife and I, years ago, early part of our marriage, we've been married for over 17 years.

Awesome.

And first year of our marriage really had some major challenges. And it reared its head. We went to a wedding and drove like 9 hours from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania down to Tennessee and, you know, Nashville area. And it was like 9, 10-hour drive. And we had had major conflict the night before and unresolved issues. Well, what do you think? We picked up, didn't sleep well that night at all. We hop in the car and drive south to north, 9-hour-ish drive. The silence was deafening. Like, that's what was going on. Foggy windows. We weren't even saying anything. Bottom line is, towards the end, probably the last hour of our trip, These words came flying out of my mouth. We need help. Sigh. In that moment, I felt like a complete failure. Now, this is interesting. I felt like a— I thought I failed my marriage, I failed my wife, I failed myself. Little did I know, those are 3 of the most powerful words I ever could have spoken.

That's amazing. And we need help is very different than a lot of the times people in the marriage are like, you need help. Right. You know, because we want to make the other person the issue. And too many times, when you talk about this employee experience, you know, liken it to a relationship, it's like, you know, you can golden handcuff people into the experience, like the lifestyle. Like there are people who stay married for a long time because when they do the math, they're like, I would not have the same lifestyle as I would if I were, you know, not married. But But the relationships really are, can we look at these tough times when we're wondering if we want to be together? And can we really be present to one another? And trust isn't something that, you know, time evolves. Trust is when we get vulnerable and do the hard things together, and we can come through the other side. So it's like, are you willing to like work on them? And I share your concern. I know a lot of people are worried about the employee experience. I want people to be more— and so therefore, they don't want any like hard stuff, negative stuff. I want people more involved in, are we evolving and growing together? Because even though sometimes the experience of that hurts in the beginning, or like training and there's cognitive dissonance, or there's tough conversations, the overall piece that ties people to one another is We got through something hard and ended up in a better place. And right now there's so much skimming going on. It's like we got to the doorway of something hard. There was an invitation there to move through the doorway. A part of us needed to die. Like we needed to let go of something and get vulnerable. And instead of doing those things, people just, they hit that doorway and they go another employer. Then they hit that doorway, they go to another employer. we don't evolve the people. And I have a personal thing going on. Like, I'm looking back where, when did we separate out personal development from professional development?

I know.

Because I think the ego did that. I think we're like, we have to evolve. And the ego's like, that's personal. You can only do training or professional development. And yet people are like, what about my wellbeing and my brain health and my mental health. And it's like, well, that's personal.

Yeah.

We've got to come back in a way where we aren't social workers, but we also are willing to have personal and professional together. But to do that, here's the hard part. You can't be a wounded healer. If you're going to be a good leader, you can't just know the techniques of coaching. You have to be working your own program of evolving.

Yeah, that's right.

And how are you going to be present? And those are some skill sets a lot of people don't know about. How do you make amends? You will screw up. How do you rectify that? I just think it's so important, this experience piece. It's concerning.

No, it is. And, but again, I'm going to go back to that word opportunity for me, because if a leader has some level or depth of receptivity to what we're talking about, And willing to go, you know, into some messiness in a sense, right? To embrace and view it as an opportunity for personal growth and team growth. Imagine if a leader has some level or depth of receptivity and all team members have a going position like that as well. Now all of a sudden, messiness isn't like a bad word. Like, like now there's truly, okay, so when conflict arises, and it will, Hopefully, teams are made up of diverse ways of thinking, ethnic diversity, gender diversity, etc., etc. Well, guess what? Not everyone thinks the same, nor should they. Not everyone has certain life experiences, nor should they. But all of a sudden, now, if a team is committed to better get to know, understand, and value each other as human beings, even—

Which is what we all crave regardless of where we go work.

We do. And now, all of a sudden, you begin to enter into that tension or that conflict out of a completely different place. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden everything goes away and everything's perfect. What it does mean is that the heart motives are a bit more pure.

Yeah. And I think one of the terms I've been using lately that help people resonate with this, Rob, are like, are you leading with grievance or vulnerability? It is so easy to take my anxiety or my needs or my concerns or my feeling unappreciated or under valued or just wanting to be affirmed and lead with grievance. Like, my leader doesn't care about me, or senior management. And, and even in a relationship, you know, that's personal, rather than leading with grievance, I want to be with somebody who does this: lead with vulnerability. Yeah. I want to have some affirmation that you believe in me and are willing to invest in me. And I think right now we're so externally identified in ego that so many people are leading with grievance. Not vulnerability. And so, you know, my new book, Life's Messy, Live Happy, that is out in March, my new tagline— I love that you brought up messiness— I'm like, get messy. I just told a group of senior leaders, I'm like, get messy. A lot of times people make a first bid. They're like, hey, I'm sorry, can we talk? But it's a clumsy first bid. Maybe it starts with a little bit of like uninformed bias and accusation. If we can give people a wider margin of error, more tolerance, grace, and mercy, and accept even a clumsy first bid and say, you know, that's the starting bid. It was not very good, but I'll raise that bid. Like, thank you for opening up the conversation. Let me add some of my experience to it. And let's be in relationship So we can kind of focus on how we can move forward. And I think right now, the biggest hesitancy I see is people want to know the right thing to do and how to fix it. And I'm like, it's not about mastery; it's about mystery. Like, you got to get messy. And so I'm calling everybody up. I'm like, be messy; get messy.

That's right. And I think it also speaks, Syd, to There's a big difference between self-discovery and self-help. I mean, for me, self-help is more or less trying to put yourself back together again. Like, you're broken and I just need to be fixed. And so, that mentality personally, team-wise, organizationally then exists. But if we begin to have more of a mindset, more of a heart of self-discovery, that there are in fact seeds of greatness on the inside of me and my team members, now we go into exploration. Yeah. And aren't we all born For exploration. I mean, look back in human history. We love to explore. We love to— the problem is in the midst of that, the average person and leader is somewhat afraid because if they are committed, willing to go on this self-discovery process and journey, they're afraid of finding out the bad within them as opposed to the good or greatness.

Robb, I love so much what you're saying because it's so counterintuitive. So many people think, oh, Sai, I got to fix my team. Will you come in and make them more innovative or make them? And they're surprised by my answer. I'm like, they already are that. They already are that. Once the drama's gone, once you get out of grievance and go into vulnerability, once you get out of I know mindset and go into curiosity, these people aren't broken. They aren't a self-help project, as you say. Like, it's all about reflection takes us beyond ego. So we get into our higher self. When you're in low self, it looks like you need to fix these people. When we're in high self, what's revealed to you is these are awesome people. We're so scared of what we're going to find out. And it basically is like, I want to hire somebody who's perfect, plug and play, and never lead again. That's just not the way of it. And there was this, um, example I heard about sculptors.

Hmm.

I just assumed that sculptors went in and they saw like a thing of marble, and they carved and created the figure. And as I got into their minds, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, the figure's already in there. We are just releasing it. Like, we're taking away anything that isn't that figure inside out, right? I'm like, what? That is like crazy. Yeah. And I started applying that to leadership. And it's like, your people's natural state, when the drama's gone, when they're toggled up, Mm-hmm. Is accountability, collaboration, innovation. It's in them. It is not something you have to put in them. They are not a self-help project; they're self-discovery. They're discovery. If we can get curious and get vulnerable and out of the external, we don't have to change people. We have to reveal what's already there, and then build on that. Now, do they need maybe skill sets or approaches? Yes. But But that's the hard thing to get people to understand. As a leader, you're not fixing people. You're revealing greatness.

That's exactly right. You know, a story that comes to mind is a personal story is my mom. My mom is actually a sculptor. She's an artist. She's been trained over the years, but she's more self-taught than having formal teaching and training. I learned what you're talking about and the importance of being invited into each other's lives on this discovery journey. My mom taught me as well as anyone. I would always— this happened years ago— I would always be so encouraged. She's— I'm like, Mom, what painting are you working on? What sculpt? And can, can I just come over to see the finished product? You know, and she would go about her thing and there would be like an unveiling of my mom's latest, uh, painting. And I was thrilled. I was waiting with anticipation, everything. And listen, the moment came and I'd go over to my mom's house and it was beautiful and I'd ask her questions. As good as that is, or certainly can be, I think there's something deeper that you and I are talking about. Yeah. What I mean by that is until one day I just happened to pop over my mom's house and it just so happened she was working. She was in the early stages of working on a new painting. And I sat down with her and I said, in her studio, and I said, Mom, why are you using these colors? What's going on in your mind? And we actually started dialogue. In other words, I was invited into her story. She was allowed, you know, she was invited into my story. We were having a conversation. In other words, I was beginning to shape what that canvas, what that painting ultimately would become. Why? Because I opened myself up and became vulnerable with my mom. She did the same. And all of a sudden, she took my input, I took her input. And what do you— what do you know? That months down the line when she finished and then there was the big unveiling, did I not feel even that much more a part of the process? Of course. You know, I felt— well, I felt like an artist.

Yeah, it's like art painting.

And we had the opportunity as a leader. As a team member within any team, as we're committed to this process of inside-out leadership and really being vulnerable with our teams. Again, drama aside, you toggle up, you're, you're up here now, right? Invited in that process. Invite someone into your story. You allow them to do the same. Now we co-create. We co-create together something beautiful. So, there might be certain people that are leading the way. With creation. But yet, if there's a sense of feeling that we're actually co-creating with each other, my goodness, Sy, watch and see what begins to happen with the vibrancy and long-term sustainability within team dynamics. Absolutely amazing.

It's amazing. And it makes you immune to the great migration because let's say you're moving and you're like, do I keep that painting? Do I not keep that painting? You're like, well, I mean, my mom made it. It's beautiful. But I have 20 other paintings of my mom's. So maybe that's one I can give a friend. Instead of it's like, no, that one, that one we co-created. Of all the ones I'm keeping, I'm committed to that one. And I think it's so important because what people don't realize is we're always co-creating. We can co-create from a vulnerable state, which attaches us together, or we can co-create from, um, a state of ego, which only attaches us to our ego. So we co-create. We're always co-creating. We're either going to co-create with our own ego and assume worst intent and create a really negative experience that I have to leave. Or a leader can influence this, since we're always co-creating, get people in higher consciousness, invite them to that, and co-create something that bonds us together. If we leave our employees to co-create with their ego, They will find reasons to leave. If we help them co-create with their team and with us, it will bond them together. We're always co-creating, but we can influence whether we're co-creating reasons to go or reasons to stay.

Agreed. Totally agreed. And I think the more that we understand and become aware of the ego in our life, as you and I both know, the things that, and the ways of thinking that are just completely unhealthy about ourselves and about other people. And you do such an extraordinary job, Cy, in that area, helping people practically do away with the ego and have a much healthier mindset, heartset, as it relates to themselves and others to enter into that co-creating space the way that you and I are talking about in this conversation.

It's so fun. Now, you have so much to offer people. I just want to make sure that, you know, they know about that. I mean, I've loved your first couple of books. I think it was like All In and Lead the Way. I have them on my bookshelf. I'm really excited about the Move the Needle book because you're really taking a look at kind of a sneaky way that we toggle down, which is like, I'm gonna let processes trump people. Like, I'm gonna either lead through processes or practices, and I'm gonna have like efficiency, which is good. I want people to be efficient But it's not always effective. And so I just want you, I want to make sure in the time we have left that we talk a little bit about some of the cool things you're bringing to the attention of leaders and team members about how to move the needle when it comes to this moving beyond employee experience. So I just want to dig into like, what else do you want to share about that?

Oh my goodness. All right. So you hit on something so key that's in the book, and that I oftentimes will talk about it It's efficiency through effectiveness. And so, I think so many leaders, the temptation is build, build, build, build, build, build, and for— in the name of sustainability. I mean, because we've got goals set, we've got timelines, we've got project to be had, all these different things that the— at the end of the day, and as a natural result, hopefully by us accomplishing certain things, It's creating activity. But I always say is activity doesn't always mean it's the best activity.

Yeah.

So, if we can learn what it means to truly be effective and with greater effectiveness, you know, in how we look upon ourselves, how we look and treat our team members, how we co-create with them, now, all of a sudden, it's— we're looking at the best activity. We're engaged in activity that's meaningful, that's heartfelt, that truly serves our team members. In the midst of that, now people are compelled to move. They're compelled to think creatively. They're compelled out of a very deep place called inspiration. And so, I think a huge part of that too, Cy, is rhythms. You know, I talk about rhythms. Like, I think rhythms and routine, if I could use that term a little interchangeably, routines and even rhythms. Are healthy. They're good. You know, I wake up in the morning and I have this very similar routine every morning and I'm put on autopilot. And that could be good, right? I wake up, I have my time of gratitude, I grab my cup of coffee, I spend time with my family, etc., etc. But what— here's what I've found, and get really practical, is although there's a place for routines and rhythms, and this is personal, this could be team-wise, it could be entire organizations, There's a place for it. But what's more important than that, or what supersedes that, is breaking the rhythms. So, I need to find— because something happens, something magical happens when I do something that interrupts my normal rhythm or routine. Now, I'm talking in a good way, right? All of a sudden, if I do something, for instance, I love having starting my day, surprise, surprise, Sai, I love starting my day with gratitude, and I try to be as specific as I possibly can with gratitude, not just going through a list for accomplishment's sake, but being specific for the people and the things in my life that I'm most grateful for, and why am I most grateful for them, and really being quiet and really engaging my senses in that process. And I just find, though, even though that routine's good, and I might find my favorite place in the house to sit down to do that, And to have that time. But here's what's awesome is once in a while, to break the routine, I'll say, all right, I'm gonna go outside early in the morning and take a walk.

Mm-hmm. I'm

still gonna have my time of gratitude, but I'm actually gonna enjoy creation when very few people are up in my neighborhood. I'm just gonna take a walk and I'm gonna have my time of gratitude. What did I do there? I broke the rhythm, I broke the routine with something healthy, and all of a sudden now, It infused vibrancy into my life. And if we're committed to do that personally and we're committed to do that team-wise, watch and see what begins to occur. Dare I say vibrancy as well as even greater health within team dynamics.

And I think it's so important and to find the balance. Like you drive every day to work, you by definition get robotic, you get detoured, you're like, I've never seen it from this perspective. And I think it's so important. A lot of the teams I work with, they are trying to not have routine in order to include people. I'm like, no, you need good process. Automate everything you can get your hands on, not for humans to have to be robotic, but to take it away from humans. Let automation do the drone work. Free humans up to do the high-value work and, and be fully present. Yes. And, you know, in my new book, I have 2 chapters on gratitude. And not because I just believe in it so much, but this happened to me. I was such a devout gratitude list maker that, um, in the beginning it heightened my appreciation for so many things. I was able to really change my thinking to see things more positively. But then what I noticed, it was almost like a superstitious deal with the universe. Like I would acknowledge it because if I didn't, it might be taken away. Mm-hmm. And then I looked at my list and it it only included things that my ego preferred. I'm like, oh my gosh, my ego is now counting my blessings as a nod to the universe, more of this, less of that. Like, there are some things that didn't make my gratitude list. And one of my teachers was like, Sai, you'll know that you're present when every single thing that happens in your day makes your gratitude list. Instead of counting your blessings, when you can count everything as a blessing, either it felt great, you preferred it, or it's here to evolve you, or it's here because it's got a bigger perspective than what you have. Like, when you can say, hello, I'm glad you're here, to everything, you welcome everything then, and you, you praise every loss and you welcome every coming, like, then you'll have transcended impermanence. And what it taught me is even routines and dedications, your ego can co-opt those. start to take even what's a good routine and get you disconnected and externally focused. So I think it's a great watch out. Routines are great. And are we— if humans are involved, are routines serving us or numbing us? I think it's such an important question.

Yeah. And I'll tell you that I oftentimes will say this, I know you'll appreciate it, is if you look for the good You'll find it. It's whether or not you're looking for it, and so you can take one of the most challenging set of circumstances. And you know what's the ego like to do is just focus on all the negative, focus all the time going, and downward hill spiral begins to occur. But if you're committed to really focusing on the good in any situation, whether it's you know pertaining to yourself, a team member, a neighbor, a community member, whatever the case may be, when you're Committed and you're actually looking for the good. Guess what? You will find it. It's whether or not you're committed to looking for it, and sometimes we have to look hard. I get it. You know, Rob, if you only knew what my life is serving me right now. I mean, if you look at my family, you look my professional life, all the changes, all the challenges, all the different. I mean, change fatigue beyond belief. And I'm here to say. That yes, even in the midst of that, there's still good.

There is. And I think what fatigues us in change is our resisting. We don't want to let go of what's leaving and we don't want to welcome what's coming. And so if it's coming fast and leaving fast, you're going to be more tired by resisting all of that, hanging on and blocking and defending. Um, the best way out of your fatigue is to learn to Let go easily and welcome quickly and kind of ride that, that flow. You know, so many times people put processes in place for efficiency. They want to make things more efficient. And I'm like, well, if a process is in place, then get the humans out of it. So like, if you put a process in place, humans' job is just to comply with it 100%. So we know if the process is working. If you're going to automate something, automate it, get humans out of it. But a lot of times, we put a process in place and we keep Humans involved, so they're bored out of their mind. I'm like, no, comply with the process. It should take the least amount of your time. Automate everything you can get your hands on, but bring the humans out to do the non-routine work—the managing the exceptions, the innovative for what we can't yet process. What are what's the twenty percent outliers? That's where you know humans are. A lot of people with talent shortage right now, they're talking about. You know, how people are skimming like customer support experiences. And it's like, well, don't just have less people in the same processes. Like have automation do the easy stuff and keep your, you know, small number of people for the high-level stuff. There's, oh my gosh.

And that's, I think you're hitting on something there because, which I talk about in the book, this whole efficiency through effectiveness. Processes are good. They, to your point, Sai, is when they're automated, we don't have to— human beings don't have to spend nearly as much time. So, what does that do with our time? Time is now given back. Where do then we put or place that time? So, I talk about move the needle. As you simplify your life, your department at work, your business, whatever, you're actually— it's an opportunity to create space. More space, more meaningful space for people.

This is big. Because right now, what happened in the pandemic is so awesome. To survive it, people had to radically simplify. Like, what is the core business need we need to meet right now? And the key is, now that you've radically simplified it, question everything that you're about to put back in, whether it has ROI. Because as you simplify, your best bet is to save that sacred space that you freed up And use it for its highest good, not to fill it back in.

Agreed. Agreed. And then that, and then that emphasizes the point that I bring up time and time again, which is then we have an opportunity and we can go deeper, more vertical in relationship with our team members as opposed to horizontal. So, we begin in the midst of that to prioritize people over things.

I love that. And being in moments and experiences over you know, um, acquisition. You know, the Buddha— I read a lot of Buddhist teachings, um, it's just what I'm attracted to.

Yeah.

And they talk about, um, you know, there's the, the acquiring, the, the having, and then there's the being. And even if we get out of acquiring things, we still focus on acquiring knowledge, um, pedagogy, philosophy, politics. Like, we acquire beliefs and certainties. And, um, but moving into that, that being is, um, in this moment, knowing we have all we need and let's maximize the moment rather as internal rather than external acquire. And it just, it reminds me what you're saying is let's go deep and vertical.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, one way to heighten the value is, you know, appreciate, meaning go deep in the moment and just be focused on something simple and singular. And you can increase the value of that just through your focus and appreciation of it. So much counterintuitive stuff. I absolutely believe the future of— it's not even leadership because that still separates us from non-leaders. But the future of a great workplace is we go, we go deep, we go inside, we keep it simple. We we evolve. And the benefit of that is then when we do move through the worlds, we can do it in a lot more effective and efficient ways. I love where you're going with this. The book is called Move the Needle. Get out there and get that book by Rob Holman. And check— what's your podcast, Rob? We got to get people going there as well.

Yeah, Inside Out Leadership with Rob Holman.

Perfect. Check out Rob. He has a ton of great resources to bring to your organization, to your teams, and just for you personally. I mean, if you're on a personal evolution journey, Rob's stuff is awesome. It's a great parallel to what I talk about in Reality-Based Leadership. And I love it. Good luck with your new book, Move the Needle. And I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, Rob. Unfortunately, we are out of time. What do you want to leave people Like, what is, what is a final thought or what's compelled you to believe in people so much?

Yeah, I'll say first and foremost, boy, do I love talking to you, Cy. You and I could talk as we have. I mean, talk for hours and only begin to scratch the surface of the things that really matter. But you and I are so like-minded, so like-hearted, and it's a joy to be with you today. I always learn I learn so much when I'm in conversation with you and when I'm up close and personal with you or reading one of your books. And that's why I'm looking so forward to March. March could not get here fast enough to get a hold of your book. So, just want to let you know that as well. You know, just a closing thought is being more present with people. We've got to learn how to be more present and comfortable just being by ourselves.

Totally. Amen, brother.

Yeah, that's it. Because even so many times we can even rush into, well, I want to be present with other people. But again, if we really believe in the depth of our hearts that we can only give what we got, then I want to encourage and I want to challenge every listener right now that have your own quiet time. Quiet times aren't just for 5-year-olds. And I have one of those, soon to be 6. They're for everyone, regardless of your age. But I want each of you, I want you to commit to a quiet time. Start with just one and then begin to put it in your calendar on a consistent basis. And during that time, have very little agenda other than maybe bring a full heart of things and people that you're grateful for.

Love it. You know, I ask people a lot who are really uncomfortable when the pandemic first started being at home, Like, take a look at what your busyness was keeping you from knowing and feeling and understanding. Like, for many of us, I think it's really revealed to us the relationship we have with solitude and uncertainty. I couldn't say, you know, affirm this more. In fact, I usually end with an assignment, so you reminded me to do that. Your assignment is— and I'll up Rob, it's not just once— your assignment is, if it's 5 minutes, set aside time to be still. And one of my favorite, um, sayings, I have it in, in my, um, office is be still and know that I am God. Like, be still and connect into like the ultimate source. Like, you are not the power source. You are the toaster. Like, you're not the power plant. You're the toaster. And people are like, why am I burnt out? I'm like, you're trying to self-generate your own power. Like, you're just an appliance that you plug into the source. And if you haven't plugged into source recently, whatever that is for you, and that only happens in stillness and solitude, you know, you're, you're a, a toaster who's not gonna do very well in the world. You're just kind of a dead appliance. So awesome. Great assignment, Rob. You be well, and, um, I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you.

Me as well. Only blessings. I say this to you often, but I will say it publicly so everyone in the world can hear. You are a true gift, Sai. Appreciate you and appreciate the work that you're doing. So keep it up.

Thank you. As we say here in Mexico, igualmente. I'm right back at you. So awesome. This is the No Ego Podcast where we ditch the drama. trauma, end entitlement, and transform your world place. I'm Cy Wakeman.