Transcending Polarized Thinking and Other New Leadership Competencies

Welcome listeners to another episode of the No Ego Podcast. If you've tuned in for my first couple of episodes in this season, I am hopefully giving you relevant topics. I'm talking to people that I meet that are just naturally walking the same path, having some of the same core philosophy because they've done some of the same inner work, and inviting them on to give you ideas about what could help given mental health crisis, some people are calling it, at work, the ways we're trying to get people to return to work, just all the daily stuff. I want to bring you people who are thinking in ways aligned with reality-based leadership and picking their brains on how we might see things in helpful ways. And to that end, I am going to invite our guests on today. Mike Robbins, who I met at Work Human, which is a place I meet fantastic, wonderful, brilliant people all trying to have bigger conversations than just how do I manage for X result. Conversations about how do we create a different world place and a different workplace. And so he and I connected, siblings separated at birth perhaps, but I will tell you a little bit more about him in a minute. But welcome, Mike. I'm so glad that you're with me.

Oh, Sai, thanks for having me. It's an honor.

And a fun known, probably not known yet fact about you is I'm a Yankees fan. So when you told me that out of what, high school, you were drafted by the Yankees and decided on Stanford, the trees, which I'm also a Stanford fan instead, I can respect that. But then as a baseball player, faced some injuries and some reinvention and resilience And had to figure that path out. But now I'm kind of grateful, not that you wouldn't have been great with the Yankees for a few years, and then you could have written books, but you have joined us in writing books about, um, just great leadership and how to do that in a really messy world. And you're a prolific author. You, um, are a wonderful keynoter, trainer. You just have a lot of, um, things to give the world. So welcome. I'm so excited that you're here. I think we're gonna have a great discussion.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I did, uh, I did turn the Yankees down to go to Stanford, but then I got drafted by the Kansas City Royals out of Stanford and, uh, ended up playing pro baseball for a few years before I got injured. So my, my career was cut short, but that was my whole life from the time I was 7 years old when I started until I finally got hurt when I was 23, and then 3 surgeries later retired at the age of 25, which was kind of an interesting way to start my Professional life. I didn't realize it completely at the time, but now, you know, half a lifetime later, I'm like, yeah, that was an interesting road to go initially for me.

Absolutely. Because you have to be all in. And any— from mining that experience, any, um, things you've come to know to be true? Because I think right now is the time that things are over sometimes before we know they're over. And, you know, our proverbial cheese gets moved without our permission. And Did you have takeaways that if you had to share with those of us? I just talked to somebody who was downsized just yesterday. Do you have any good takeaways for what you mined out of that experience?

I mean, it was super painful, like physically painful. I got hurt, but it was emotionally painful because it had been my identity for most of my life. 18 of the first 25 years of my life, I wasn't just Mike, I was Mike the baseball player. And, you know, I learned some things about focus and dedication and, you know, winning and losing and commitment and those things that were positive. But on the negative side, I mean, you know, here we are on the No Ego Podcast. Like, sports is full of a lot of ego and a lot of, you know, and at that age, a lot of sort of chest bumping and I'm so great and look at me, which underneath that was a lot of fear and insecurity that I was aware of at the time, but I thought I was the only one. Because we did a lot of performing for each other, pretending like we were— I think athletes do a little bit of a better job these days talking a little bit more about mental health and about fear and insecurity and doubt, which I appreciate. But when I was playing in the '80s and early '90s, we weren't talking about that. So I just thought I was crazy.

Yeah.

And so it was really painful to go through some of that experience and not feel like I had a lot of outlets to talk about it or get a lot of support. But it did end up impacting me in the sense that as I was going through that really painful transition, I needed help and I had to ask for it because I didn't know sort of which way was up. And thankfully, I got some really good help and support during that time when I was having a really tough, tough go of it.

Which is amazing that you were in it and knew to ask for help and then were able to connect with help because as we think about others facing, you know, big changes in their lives. Those are 2 fortunate things that you had that I think we all need to pay special attention to building environments that people know that asking for help, it's not even that there's no shame involved, but that it is matter of fact, that it's kind of your birthright. Like, if we are working together and I'm a leader and you're a human and I'm a human, like, Ask for help. Like, that's, that's okay. And then we need to make sure that we know how to connect people to help. I find if leaders stay out of mental health conversations, it's because they haven't preprocessed, like, what would I offer and how will I intentionally be with someone who's struggling? Like, how can I hold space?

Right.

And one of the new leadership competencies I'm starting to talk a lot about are things like leaders need to learn how to hold space, not be somebody therapist, but validate their experience without validating maybe the sense they're making of their experience. Don't validate the story or the venting, but definitely don't greet it with toxic positivity, like pressuring people to feel better or more optimistic than they are.

Totally.

It's an important leadership competency.

One thing, and I love that you said that, and when we met at Work Human, I know there was a lot of conversation. You mentioned that in your session about the importance of holding space, as did our friend Esther Perel when she was talking. And so great, right? But as you say that, I think of something I learned when I was quite young. I was in 7th grade, so I was 13 years old, and a good friend of mine's dad died very suddenly. And this had been a buddy of mine for a few years. I knew his dad. I'd been over at his house, and it was super scary. It was one of the first memories I have. Yeah. I think a few people in my life peripherally had passed away, but I was so sad and upset, but I was so scared. How is my friend going to react? What do I say to him? I don't know. He was out of school for about a week, and I don't remember exactly what the circumstances were and why. I don't think I went to the memorial service for some reason, but he comes back to school and I first avoided him. Then when we interacted a handful of times, I just tried to keep it light. I didn't want to be too heavy. And after a couple days, this friend of mine, this sweet kid, 13 years old, pulls me aside and he says to me, Mike, how come you haven't said anything to me about my dad? Right? And I'm like, you know, mortified. That's amazing courage. Yeah, that he's courageous enough to have that conversation with me. And I said to him, I'm so sorry, Jared. I didn't know what to say. And then he looks me in the eye and he says, you could have just said that. And I was like—

What a teacher.

Oh my gosh, right? And at 13 years old, I just remember that was super painful for me. I mean, obviously much more painful for him. He lost his father and he's grieving, but that he had the awareness to say that to me, to give me that feedback. And I never forgot that. And for me, all these years later in life, when I find myself in situations, which I do, especially over the last couple years, and people come and show up with something and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have no idea What to say, what to do, how to— I think back to that conversation and I will sometimes even say, I don't really know exactly what to say, but I hear you, or I'm here, or something to that effect. And I think what he was basically teaching me at 13 was how to hold space, or at least how to acknowledge you don't always have to have the right answer. And when I talk to a lot of leaders, I'm sure you find this, Cy, the fear is that I won't know what to say, I won't know what to do, or people are coming to me with these really intense personal things and I feel like I'm out of my depth or whatever they say. Often the response is just like, you can acknowledge that right to them. And that often is a better response than some, as you're saying, toxically positive thing that we can— advice we can give them on how to deal with it when in reality we may not even know.

Yeah. Or the avoidance and the not knowing. And it's so important that we start to counter all this mastery we think we need to have with a comfort with the mystery. Things we don't know and things that don't come to us easily. And I think part of being vulnerable and authentic is getting comfortable just by saying, I don't know what to say. What I do know is I really care. Or I think one of the biggest fears people have is abandonment. And unfortunately, when we don't feel like, well-equipped, we do probably the worst thing ever, which is abandon. Yes. Is like avoid that person. Or not just in death situations, but maybe you come to me to vent or collude, and I can't collude with you, but I can make sure I don't abandon you. And even if you don't know what to say, like, everything's figureoutable. I think we should ask for help. Like, um, and we teach a lot of young people that they only have to know what to do when people bring them big issues, but they, they have a go-to that my mom says everything's figureoutable and we just need to ask for help, you know, like look for the helpers. Totally. And I really think authenticity and showing up for people in the workplace and vulnerability Is making things a lot simpler than they are, like getting out of like this intellectual, like I have to know what to do, or mastery, or I have to do something clever and fancy and eloquent. Um, being present, telling someone you won't leave them, calling for help— this is a basic first aid. If you come upon an accident and there's somebody who potentially may be, you know, in the last part of their life, what we tell first responders to do is You assure the person that they're not alone, that you won't leave them, that you will get help. And I just think some of these basics are just so helpful in almost every situation. Like, let's keep thinking. Like, I don't know the answer, but let's come together and let's think. Let's dialogue.

I totally agree. I think there's another piece to this as well, which is in addition to the fear of not having the right answer or not knowing what to say or what to do, I also think there's just a fear that a lot of us have of emotion. And I've often said, it's like there's a handful of acceptable emotions at work, right? You can be happy and passionate, engaged, but not too much. You can get a little stressed out. You can get stressed out. You can even get a little frustrated, but you can't be angry. You can't be sad. You can't be scared. And I've always thought that to me is insane because we're emotional humans.

It is insane. And your margin of error, if you're female or if your skin is brown, Like somebody who is white and male can be justifiably angry, but like somebody else can't. Like, yeah, there's not only limits, but there's differences in those limits.

Exactly. So there's limits in general, and then they're specific depending on how we look, what we can, and our role and all the things. But there's an exercise that I've done for years, and it's a really simple exercise, and I love doing it with teams. But it blows my mind. And I just had an experience with this last week with a group that I was working with. And I talk a lot about authenticity and vulnerability, and the metaphor that I use is an overused metaphor of the iceberg. It's like we got to lower the waterline on the iceberg. And the exercise is one where I'll set some context, and after we've talked about it, I'll just say, okay, we're going to go around. And usually this is with a leadership team, an in-tech team, a small group, 10, 12 people tops. I can do it in bigger groups if I put people in small groups, but it's like I always start and I just say, here's what we're going to do. You're just going to repeat this phrase. If you really knew me, you'd know this about me. And then people just start sharing whatever, and I'll go first and I just start. And it's not a thing that I'm telling them about when I grew up or my mom, or it's just in the moment. If you really knew me in this moment, you would know whatever's really happening, what I'm thinking about, how I'm feeling. And I share vulnerably. And then I usually turn to the leader of the group and ask them to go next and they go. And inevitably, I mean, I've seen this exercise go lots of different ways, but what usually happens, and it's never the intention, but Usually some, if not a number of people, will get emotional. They'll start to cry because usually what's right under the surface when you give people permission to really get real is some emotion that's been sort of, they're holding onto and given the space. And if I can create a safe enough space in that room or with that group, but what's amazing to me is not just that people share and then share emotionally, it's people's reactions to other people's emotions. People start falling all over themselves to get a tissue. Mm-hmm. I always try to very calmly and compassionately remind everybody, it's okay. We're all okay. What I really want to say is we're all grown-ass adults. No one's going to die if they shed a few tears. But ultimately, what's amazing, Sai, to me that happens in the synergy of that experience is even though it is a little uncomfortable at times for some people, and some people might have a really strong reaction, like this group last week, there was a lot of emotion. Someone shared about losing their dad and it just opened up this whole thing. Yeah. of grief, which to me is like, yes, that's intense. And I've lost both of my parents and my sister, so it resonates very personally. But holding space in that room for people to actually share some of their grief with their teammates and to make it through that experience, through the tears and the— at the end of it, not only is there a bit of a catharsis, but there's this human connection of like, oh my gosh, we work together all the time and we never talk about that. And again, it's not group therapy and I'm not a therapist. However, it is a human moment where it's like, hey, we're spending 8 to 10 to 12 hours a day sometimes. This was a startup I was working with. They're really in it with each other, but they don't know some of these things that are going on in each other's lives. And not that anyone can solve it. I can't bring your father back. Yeah. I can't really help you directly with your grief except to hold space and know that's going on. It was incredible. And the 2 co-founders pulled me aside after and were like, oh my gosh, we have needed to have that conversation for so long and we didn't even know we needed to have that conversation.

Nice. It's about creating the space. There's so much to unpack there. I'm hoping that people get to be like, read the user's manual of their own bodies. Because when COVID started, I had just assumed that people understood feelings and they were in touch with them. And I had to really start teaching people, like, feel your feelings, but don't trust your feelings. Right? And your feelings have good information for you. But so many of us intellectualize our feelings into grievances. Like, I feel anxious. That means my leader hasn't told me something. Instead of, I feel anxious today. Let me use that as good information to walk through the day more carefully with others.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I think when we're used to drama and drama triangles, if somebody is, has feelings, we automatically see them as victims. villain could be just life, and we need to be the rescuer. And if we're in drama-filled environments and we don't have healthy relationships, you know, leaders can't lead people where they haven't gone. So if you have uncomfortable discomfort with your own feelings, if somebody starts to have feelings, you know, it's like, get them a tissue. Like, let's like fix or rescue or— and just that space. What I find if people ask me like, what's wrong with Every work situation, every team, what's your diagnosis? Like, working as a counselor in the past, it would seem like I had one hammer and everything was a nail. Um, we all need to stop and grieve.

Hmm.

And we need to feel our sadness. Like, right now, like, should we come back to work? Should we not come back to work? Like, it's like, everybody, it's ambiguous grief. Pauline, um, gosh, what was her last name? She talks about that biggest grief, um, box, I think. But we've lost some things, and, um, and, and let's hold space for that. And we don't have to fix it, and like, we just have to be present for it. And, you know, like, how do we, how do we get better at that without fixing, without abandoning? So those are our two options usually for somebody who is sharing If you knew me in this moment, like, you would know this about me. Um, we are— our primitive brain, when we're toggled down fight or flight, is fix or abandon.

Totally.

Good luck with that, or here's what you should do. And when we're toggled up and we're in complex brain, it's like, um, I'm not sure, we could ask for help, but before we do that, I just am glad to listen. I want to hear what that is like for you. And the other thing is, people are sharing grief You know, somebody might say, oh, I recently went through a divorce. And like, we want to make a comment on our perspective. And instead, one question, one moment of curiosity. What's that like for you? Or what's that been like for you? So that you can hear, I was completely devastated. I thought I'd be married forever. Or it was a conscious uncoupling and we both had great times. We decided we were done. Or, you know, it's been horrific. I really had to hurt somebody to live the life I wanted to live. Like, We think leadership roles are directing and problem solving and coaching. And the new modern leadership roles are holding the center, holding space, doing our inner work, inviting other people to consider things differently, to self-reflect.

Totally.

The power of a leader isn't what you tell people about, it's what you get them thinking about. It's purely invitation. Totally. Let's come together and spend some time and cover some bases on this topic.

And I agree with that. And I think, you know, you and I were talking before we hit record about this. I do think that it's an important aspect to be mindful of, especially with leaders who've been around for a little while, that the expectation is changing all the time.

Yeah.

And, you know, I have empathy for people who will come to me and say some version of like, This wasn't expected of me 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20, whatever the case may be.

And it's like, yeah, I didn't

sign up for this. I mean, my wife and I have teenagers. We have 2 girls who are 14 and 17. I mean, we didn't expect that raising kids was going to be easy. We definitely didn't expect raising teenagers was going to be easy. But like, we look at each other every now and again and we try not to play the victim, but we're like, hey, we didn't sign up for all of this. Do you know what I mean? Like,

we're about to— We raised you, baby.

Exactly. And again, it's like really adolescence started in our house and then COVID hit and we're like, whoa. But it is what it is to some degree. And it's like embracing the reality of what's true. And it's like understanding now that the job of a leader, there's so much more being asked of you on a personal level. And again, it's not to say that leadership was easy 30 years ago. It's just the things you're expected to understand or have at least awareness of and be mindful of In today's world. I mean, it's even ratcheted up quite a bit just in the last 5 years since before COVID and where we are socially, culturally. And I don't like when people whine and complain about it, but at the same time, I do have understanding and empathy for the fact that it is hard and it is complex. And I think leaders really do themselves a service when they can acknowledge it, not like an excuse, but just like, hey, this is hard. I am struggling with certain aspects of this because it feels like now I'm supposed to be mindful of like 50 other things that I used to not have to pay attention to. And some of that is just waking up, you know what I mean? And earlier when you were even acknowledging— I mean, I talked to so many other straight white men who look like me who are like, what's going on and what's all of this? And it's like, well, all of this was happening, you just weren't paying attention, or no one was saying it to you in a way that—

All of us are late to the party.

Yeah. And so again, it's like, yes, it's painful and uncomfortable. Yes, you feel like you don't know the right thing to say and do, but like That's part of the deal. And to what you were saying earlier, you can't lead someone where you haven't been. So, it's about doing your inner work. I was just coaching a CEO this morning and he was asking me, what do you think's next for me, Mike? What do you think's next? Like a next thing to do? And I was like, it's going deeper into your own personal journey. That's always to me what's next. But if you want to be the kind of leader you really want to be, it's not going to be about the margins and the numbers and all the things, as great as those are, it's going to be about how deep are you willing to go within yourself.

So true. And we bought into a model. The ego was very clever about 20 years ago. It said, no, no, no, we're going to separate out personal from professional. We're going to— the ego's like, we're not talking about this human stuff. And even development, that's personal development versus professional development. So the ego carved out like the messiness, the, um, internal stuff, because the ego is very externally identified. And it's so interesting to me that— and I wrote about this in my last book, Life's Messy, Love Happy— like, your happiness and even success, however you define it, the way that you can walk through a messy world— and today's world's messy— and do that with love and spaciousness and openness is directly proportional to the inner work you've done. Like, if you go internally and forge wisdom— a lot of people grow older, not everybody grows wiser, right?

Right.

That inner work then makes you more capable, gives you more capacity to walk through external things. Like, if you can sit with yourself without knowing where some of this is coming from, then you can sit with others. Um, to do that as well. And the ego really got us into conventional incremental, like, development. It's all very intellectual teaching. We had a moment in the '80s where we did some experiential learning. We took people to ropes course, but it was over. The, the budget got cut for that. We are not having people spending time together talking about non-business things around the campfire. Like, we're not doing it. The ego, like, cinched that back up. And I think that's why there's so much talk right now about evolutionary experiences. Like, all kinds of people I know are, like, experimenting, like, with ayahuasca and, like, psilocybin. And, and, and people are like, are we off our rocker? And I think we are craving evolutionary experience, not development experience. So if you look at Conventional versus post-rigorous. We're entering a whole new realm of this isn't hierarchical and I don't have to know all the answers. The genius is in the collective. The world has really shifted and you don't have to know the answers. You just have to show up and not act like you do.

I mean, was it Einstein who said, we can't solve the problems with the level of thinking that caused them? We have to go to another level, another level. It's so funny you mentioned too that Robes courses and things. I can't tell you how many times— I mean, I've been doing this for 23 years, and in the early days especially, but even still now, people say, we're not going to do like trust falls or sing Kumbaya. And I always say, well, we're not, but by the way, those things are actually really valuable. If your team was close enough that you could all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, that would actually be a really strong team that was super connected to each other. You know what I mean? So it's easy to turn things into a cliché or an eye roll. Instead of really understanding what's the deeper meaning of that or what's the deeper purpose. And I think people are asking questions and that's why we're seeing things like psychedelic therapeutics coming into the mainstream of not only psychology, but then thinking about, well, how do we get people? I mean, think of what happened about 10, 12 years ago with mindfulness. Mindfulness was this personal spiritual thing that people did. And now it's everywhere in the business world, in the sports world, because we realized, oh, actually, quieting your mind and meditating, you can do that very deeply spiritually, but you can also just do that in a super practical way and it calms you down. It calms your nervous system. It allows you to connect with other human beings and communicate more clearly. And it's like, oh, well, everybody could use that. And when you demystify it and people aren't as freaked out about it, then all of a sudden you realize, oh, this stuff really matters. I mean, I even joke for years of coaching people. Now, I never got my degree and didn't get licensed as a therapist, But a lot of years of coaching, I'm sitting here and someone hires me and all we're talking about is their mom and their wife and their friends and their kids or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, I'm not a therapist, but this is kind of like business therapy and life therapy in a way that I will refer someone to a therapist if they really need a therapist. But I do feel like the worlds are combining and coming together and have been in the last decade or two because I think we're realizing We're just who we are and we have to integrate that into all of what we do.

Yeah. And sometimes that's misused. People are like, well, this is just who I am and how I show up. And it's like, you know, I often joke and I'm like, you know, I think you think I want you to bring your whole self to work and I don't. I want you to bring your most evolved self to work. And I think it's this evolutionary work that we need to call people to, but we don't have to turn everybody into a self-help project. Like, you're perfect as you are. I just want you to get closer to who you are. Like, a lot of people are like, so now I have to do this and I have to be this. I'm like, no, you already are this fantastic human being. I just want you to get closer to that. I just want you to notice how when somebody brings up mindfulness, how you shut that down rather than open up. Like, how can you open your mind and your heart up and suspend judgment? Like, how would I know? And, um, and really plug and play, um, into that. But again, People are used to their mastery getting them through, and there's not that comfort with the mystery. So I'm glad things are kind of coming back together, you know, and people are opening up. It actually— a lot of people think they need to do more things or, or be more to people, and what they don't realize— it's so counterintuitive— it's like, just give up more of that which is not you. Like, you're not mean and you're not dismissive. And be more of who you are. Like, I'm scared and I worry that I am not doing right by my team. Well, then just say that. Just go, I don't have any answers. Like, how do you want to move forward together? So, I think it's so important.

Totally. You know, 2 of my favorite questions to ask with a team, just on that note, is like, I love little simple questions or prompts, but just like, What are you excited about? What are you nervous about? Super simple, right? But it's a way to just get people to open a little bit their minds, their hearts to like what's— it could be very business-specific. I'm excited about this project. I'm worried we're not going to hit the number by the end of the quarter, whatever the heck it is. But it's like, those are the kind of things people are thinking about and feeling. And if you can actually talk about those, not necessarily trying to solve the problem, but just to connect, Then it just makes it that much easier to get connected and aligned and then figure out how you're going to address things.

And it leads to self-reflection. Like, you asked me that, I'm like, oh my gosh, let me take a minute. I have to actually like go inside. Like, I haven't asked myself that question. Like, I've been so externally focused. I heard another question last week and somebody started a meeting with, what is um, heavy on your minds and heavy on your heart. And so one was, what problem are you kind of grappling with that you haven't figured out yet? So everybody got to admit something they hadn't figured out yet, which was vulnerable.

Right.

And then what's heavy on your heart? Like, what are you grieving today? Or what are you, you know, scared to wish for today? Or, you know, what are you walking with today? And I just think the more we can ask questions that get people both self-reflecting and sharing from a different place than just their, you know, defense mechanisms, the better.

Yeah, totally.

There's a lot to overcome because our world will have us resolve our pain, our suffering, our cognitive dissonance with, um, certainty even over accuracy and binary thinking. And, you know, what camp are you in? And I'm like, I didn't know there was like only like 2 camps. Like, I'm in the— Like, I'm in the camp that's cheering for the human race. Is that a camp? Like, like, people really, to not feel vulnerable, people want to boil it down to, you know, what gender are you and who are you going to vote for? And like, do you believe in guns or not? And like, I'm like, um, and I see it even like as we put out TikTok, we just want to increase thinking. And just the naming that goes on, like, she's a Karen, or she's gaslighting, or She's amazing. Everyone should listen to her. I'm like, all of you, let's stop talking and just take it in. If it fits, great. If it doesn't, I'm just asking questions. I'm just inviting you to consider. I'm inviting you to come together differently.

You and I are speaking a lot of the same language. I mean, the most recent book that I wrote is called We're All in This Together.

I love that. I didn't even see that connection, but now that you say that, I remember that.

Well, in part, I mean, it's funny because I finished the book, Sai, at the— I finished the manuscript at the end of 2019 and it was scheduled to come out in the spring of 2020. And so I didn't write anything about COVID in there. I mean, I figured the year, living here in the US, the election was coming up. Part of why I wrote it is—

We were already staged for division.

Yeah. Well, but it was, I mean, the division in our country especially, but just in the world seemed to just be ratcheting up and ratcheting up and ratcheting up. And while the book was mostly about leadership and teamwork and a lot of the stuff that I've been studying for the last couple decades, There was a piece of me speaking to what you're talking about, of all of this binary thinking and this us versus them. And from the time I was really young and through my work, I've always been sort of sitting around the table like, okay, who's the them? Can someone explain who the them is? I'm just like, I don't mean to— Oh, good point. Yeah. And the weird part of it to me, growing up as an athlete in a competitive environment, sports competitive, there's a lot of us and them. The other team, they're the bad guys and sort of the enemy. But I always had a hard time, even as a really competitive kid and athlete, to just like, I could relate to those guys on the other team because they were just like me. They're just wearing a different uniform. But even on the team itself, internally, people— what people don't realize if they didn't play a lot of sports is sports teams are really competitive internally because there's only so many spots that you can play. And then who's the— all this stuff. My favorite day of the baseball season. was always the last day of the season. And it sounds strange, but I mean, if I was on a team that won a championship, the last day was awesome because we were celebrating we won. But usually you didn't win the championship, so the last day ended with a loss, which was hard and painful and sad. And it was like all of this coming to a crashing end very abruptly. But the reason that I love the last day of the season, even when I was really little, was because some of the guys would break down and cry on the last day of the season when it would end. I mean, we were in Little League and when I was— Me too. Yeah, or even all the way to college and then pro ball. And back then it was like, I mean, we've gotten a little better in how we raise our boys, but for the most part it was like, suck it up, be a man, and boys don't cry. And I was a super sensitive kid who was raised by my single mom and influenced by my older sister, and I cried all the time. I still do, right? I've just always been that way with my emotions. But I spent a lot of my young life like sucking that in and trying to suppress that because it seemed like that's not cool. to cry, and then you'd get made fun of 10 times more if you cry anyway. But when I'd look around the locker room or if we were on the field, nobody made fun of you on the last day of the season if you cried.

Interesting.

And the thing that I loved about it was I'd look at the meanest, scariest guy on the team who intimidated me, and he'd be over there with his glove over his face crying. And I'm thinking, he's crying? But it made me feel more connected on a human level. And at that point, the season was over and all the hierarchy was gone. And it was like there was no us and them. It was all us. And we were just a bunch of kids or young men or whatever, disappointed and sad that the season ended and whatever that meant for us personally. But I try to remind myself of that when I find myself in situations that are really tense. And it does really feel like there's this group and that group, or there's this agenda and that agenda. It's like, without oversimplifying it, and this is what I think great leaders do with awareness, but understand, How do we genuinely find common ground? And how do we remind us that we're all humans doing the best we can and we just have some difficult decisions to sort through and dynamics to figure out?

Oh my gosh. Not only depersonalize it, but transcend that cheap temptation to resolve this in binary thinking, us versus them. So when we're kind of having this theme of new competencies for leaders, and Alex and I are doing some writing about that, but one of the new competencies I think as a leader is that you have to really continually extend the invitation to transcend cheap thinking, like binary thinking, enemies. Also invite people to get good at impermanence, let go of what's leaving and welcome the new. There are some core competencies that most of us haven't considered before. But I love what you're saying about that, the great equalizer And finding a goal or transcending that, like big enough to include everybody's personal preferences, I think is really an art of a leader. I think it's really artful. I remember even when I raised 4 boys, so our lives are completely different in that regard.

It's a different sport, right?

Which is funny because just last week, my, one of my sons that got married, he and his wife, his godfather couldn't make it to the wedding. So we all went out to dinner to celebrate after the fact, a few months after the fact. And Scott's father brought up the Eagles. Remember this time that you were just devastated and you're crying in the parking lot? And almost a little shaming or like, remember when I told you that baseball's like that? And I was so proud of my son. My son goes, I still have moments where I cry about that. I had a 13-year-old call me out on a winning run. That wasn't the case. I was, I was 10. He goes, I still cry about it. And I just love that he claimed that where he was like, I had a lot to be sad about. And I was just like, yes, you did. But when they would get into conflict, I would do all kinds of things I was taught to try and resolve their conflict. And it was disastrous. So we had in our house every Batman figure known to man, the, the kind that when you stepped on them hurt worse than Legos. Because they're like, their feet were like Straight up, like these little figures. And every time we go to like Walmart or something, that was what the kids wanted. And that's what they got for their birthday. So we had all these Batman figures. One fluky Batman didn't on the conveyor belt make it through the paint job or something. He was just like green with no painting. And he was like the Batman everyone fought over. So I used to do things like I would hear them fighting in the basement and I would go down there and do the power play a lot of the later And I would take the Batman and I would be like, he lives on top of the fridge and you all can't have him. And then they would team up against me. Like they would fake a fall out front, full of ketchup on the arm, someone's bleeding. I would run out. It was still Batman. It was like a me against them. So then I did this thing. I thought win-lose isn't gonna work. I'll do compromise. So I set a timer. Somebody can have green Batman for 10 minutes and somebody else can have green Batman. So now all I did was a leader parent, was monitor the clock. I didn't get my work done. And when they had the Batman, they didn't enjoy it because they're playing defense of it not being stolen. And when they did— so finally I'm like, wait a minute, let's transcend this. What can— if your goal is to have fun and we only have one good Batman out of these 7,000 that we have, what can 2 boys do with one Batman to have fun? And it was just this enlightened moment of parental frustration. And I was amazed what they came up with. They were like, we both could get in your big bathtub with a bunch of bubbles and we could dive bomb big, you know, green Batman. And I would've never come up with that solution 'cause I'm not a 5-year-old little boy. But they played for hours, made a colossal mess. I didn't care. My bathroom was cleaned vicariously. Right. I often think back to that, that So many of the techniques we've taught in leadership development are how to win or how to control or how to manipulate or how to performance manage, but not how to transcend, not how to get us to a bigger, more expansive place, not to use inquiry like what can 2 boys do with 1 green Batman to have fun? And I think that's really kind of the art of a leader. I think it's really appropriate right now too, as we're trying to Figure out return to work mandate. You're all coming back 3 days. Permissive compromise, like, come back at least one day and we won't fire you. Right.

Think

about all these strategies that just continue to fuel bad conversations about return to work when we really need to transcend it. Folks, it's been 3 years. We no longer know what the appropriate venue is for the work we have to do. Would you join me? I'd like to extend an invitation where we can come in and look at the work to be done and look at your personal preference, but also look at the needs of the business and have a really beautiful conversation about how we can come together and do what we need to do and then be a part and do what we need to do. Like Not how we can make this work, but what is ideal for us and can we entertain that conversation?

Right. And nobody has the right answer to this. I mean, no one has figured this out. And I think it's a collaborative generative conversation with every team, with every organization, and it's going to continue to evolve. And what I think we're learning among many things, and you're speaking to this in a lot of ways, is A lot of us are uncomfortable with ambiguity. A lot of us are uncomfortable with the messiness of it. And this is just a very practical and specific and widespread messy problem right now called no one can quite figure out how this return to work thing works. And I do think it's going to take a lot more vulnerable and open leadership to figure it out in each case. And you know what? Whatever the answer is today is probably going to be different in 6 months or a year or in 18 months, depending just on how things evolve.

And I think being able to host those conversations and, and be able to love people up and let's mine our, what we've been through, our experiences so we can emerge evolved. Let's take what we've learned. We've learned that flexibility is important. We've learned that requirements of showing up at a certain time, a certain day has different effects on different populations depending on what their life situations are like. We've learned a lot, but we've just weaponized, um, come back or I'll make you. No, I don't want— it's like, can we, um, get, get together? And I have a new thing I'm teaching leaders a lot, and it came from the poet David Whyte. Um, how do you feel about this conversation? And people are like, I'm exhausted. So you're involved in an exhausting conversation? Yes. I hope to never have to speak of it again. Perfect. Here's what you do when you're involved in an exhausting conversation. End the conversation gently and begin a new one.

Hmm.

Whenever we're in an exhausting conversation, we've talked about before, we're not— just end it, pull out of it, and be a leader. Begin a new one. Because the conversation I would love to have with people is, um, let's talk about Some of your preferences. Let's talk about some best practices on innovation and collaborative work. Let's talk about what brain science is telling us about mental health. I just read this study. It was amazing how a lot of us are feeling languish and other feelings when we've made our world one-dimensional and we want to stay one-dimensional. So the way the guy explained it was Pre-COVID, we usually had at least 3 venues in our life, like 3 scene changes. So you had work, work challenged you, it built your resilience, you know, it fired different parts of your brain. You had to come together, you had to manage, you know, different relationships. You, you had to maintain some level of social skills. Like you got feedback. Then there was social where, you know, volunteer church, restaurants, concerts, being out in the world. And then there was home, and you had 3 venues. So talk about variety in your diet. We know diversity is good. Your visual plane, you had variety. You had to figure and problem-solve every day how to get from here to there and how to like multitask and prioritize. Like, you're exercising your brain. So we all go home and we're comfortable here, and but we have diminished our 3D life. We're not living in color anymore because we no longer have this social venue. Most of us don't. And we no longer have this, this work venue. And we've combined even our social venue. A lot of us do more online, and, and we've kept up with the, I'll stay in my pajamas and just, you know, donate online or whatever. And this person is making the point from his research, anytime we've done that, where we've limited our senses, little babies that don't get enough stimulation get failure to thrive. Mm-hmm. And now we're feeling overwhelmed by even the least little bit of opening up. And how do we, you know, you are an athlete, you build tolerance for, you know, or you build endurance by challenging your body carefully one bit further, not to the point of injury. And so he really made this point where it's like, folks, like our dad is 3 years old. How do you know you don't benefit from being back in the company of others? Like, and so it just was amazing. I don't know the answer, but it was such a beautiful invitation. It's like, and Instead of saying no, just like, come for a while. Like, I don't know. Like, let's just come be together. Well, how, how many days? I don't know. Like,

yeah,

like just come. Let's gather. Let's connect. This is figureoutable. Like, let's put our personal agenda aside. What's the balance between community versus person? Let's just talk. And you know, when I was counseling, that was the hardest thing I got people to do. Yeah. Just come in.

Yeah. Well,

I'll come in without her because I want to tell you. I'm like, nope.

Right.

Two of you just come in. The spouse will call. Well, what are we going to talk about? And what's— I'm like, just come in. Like, it would take months. I'm like, I'll see you when you get here. Just come in.

Yeah.

And there's a threshold about psychologically going through a door, leaving something behind, walking into the unknown. Um, I was taught a prayer that I say almost every day by, um, someone from the Lakota Nation. And she said that when she got up in the morning, it's a 3-step prayer. I might have written about this. So the first thing you do when you step out of bed with one foot is you stop for a moment and you step into your own body, because many times we go out in the world and we're not anchored in our heart and our gut. And like, we're just up here. We are just a mind walking a body around. And she said, then the second step, you step into relationship. You're mindful on that second step out of the bed that I'm relating in the world. It's like, what I do matters. And I'm stepping into relationship with myself and then relationship with others. And I was like, so what's the third step? And she's like, stepping into mystery.

Hmm.

Stepping into the unknown with, God, show me how to love today. God, You know, like whatever your beliefs are. Like Marianne Williamson talks about a return to love. Like, show me how to be loving today. Show me what in the world needs love. And that's the type of somatic experiential stuff where I think we're limiting our experiential evolution. Like, we want to impact the world, but we need to be out in the world to be evolved by it and impacted by it.

Totally.

And we're really stunting our development. That's my soapbox, Mike. But I know you talk about that so much about return to work and can we just come together?

Yeah. Well, it's part of also letting go of control, which is the opposite of stepping into the mystery, which I love that because I do think that's a big part of what makes life worth living. And when you think about great leaders, there is an element usually of they're comfortable with the mystery and the unknown and not always having to have the right answer. I mean, we started this conversation as we start to wrap it up with Talking about asking for help, one of the questions I often ask when I'm speaking to leaders is like, how many of you like helping other people? And everybody in every room I'm in always raises their hand because even if they don't, they don't want to look like a jerk or selfish. But most of us do like helping other people. But then I follow it up and say, how many of you love asking other people for help? And in almost every room I've been in over the last 20-plus years, maybe 10% of the hands go up. And usually, people are almost embarrassed to admit that they're comfortable asking for help. And I often will say, Be proud of that. That is a huge asset. And please keep doing it because you'll model it for others and you actually give other people the opportunity to not only help you, but do something that people love to do, which is help.

It's so true.

And that's often how you create a really strong team and environment, but that's how you continue to grow as a leader by realizing, I don't have all the answers. In fact, I don't have a lot of answers, but I have an ability and a willingness to engage in the questions and try to hold some space. And

that's it, that we don't need the answers. And we have normalized so many trauma responses like fierce independence and called them like good work habits. And it's like, yeah, so we could talk on and on and on. So I hope listeners, you have enjoyed meeting Mike. I know that we've wandered through a few topics, but I wanted to just bring some additional perspective. receptive to this ambiguous, you know, role of leader. And I'm even doing it. I'm like, oh, we should have had an outline and it wasn't really structured. But welcome to today's modern world.

Yes.

Where we can just sit and think together for a while and be in conversation. Mike has so much to offer and I'm going to turn it to him. But this guy is prolific in his writing. He has so many books out there. He is out there moving, shaking, writing, speaking, but also role modeling What it's like to be connected with family and parenting and friending. He's good at role modeling balance. So how can people learn more about you and continue learning from you?

Well, thank you. Thanks for having me on. And thanks for asking that. I mean, the best place to do that is probably at our website, which is just mike-robbins.com.

Perfect. Perfect. And there's lots of books out there for those. A lot of my listeners love reading. We are just going to continue these conversations that aren't telling you how to fix your problems, but are inviting you to the conversation so that we can think together. And one of our biggest discoveries in the last 3 years is that resilience isn't about independence and grit and stamina. And resiliency is about gathering together the collective and tapping into the genius of the collective. We all have a lot of good data points to this big crowdsource called life. And, uh, I'm excited, um, that you were here to be part of it, Mike. I look forward to many more run-ins where we find each other at great conferences like Work Human. So,

yes,

um, thank you so much for coming on. And, uh, the teenage years, um, are, are wonderful at evolving you and finishing off. People go, I need finishing school for my teenager. I go, you are in finishing school, but for you.

For sure.

Yeah, thank God for them. Awesome. Well, thank you.

Thanks. Hi.