What's IN and what's OUT in leadership this year?

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reality Based Leadership podcast. This is a new endeavor where Alex Dorr, the VP of People Evolution at Reality Based Leadership, and I, Cy Wakeman, come together and chat. And it is a new podcast. We have done great podcasts in the past. Alex had The Carvery. Go back and listen to those great episodes. I had No Ego. Many, many seasons there of really great content. And we're starting this new, so we do have one favor to ask. If you like these conversations and want to keep them coming, go out, give us a good rating, do that whole share thing to build our audience back up, because we are taking the risk to start something new, and we're hoping people will find us and make the transition. So welcome. Hi, Alex, good to see you again.

Yeah, good to be back. And I love that we're taking this podcast and coming with those that know us, they've been following a while, so we can talk deeper on maybe some of the The topics that sometimes you have to dance on a little bit to, to talk it from a reality-based perspective. So this should be fun.

Yeah, we're assuming a lot of you have had training or read our books or follow us for a reason, because you're kind of advocates and disciples. And so every once in a while, we'll bring you experts that we're loving as guests. But a lot of this conversation is just quick hits on ways that we're hoping to help you practice reality-based leadership out in the world. Today, we're taking a fun idea off of what we've been Seeing on TikTok and social media where people are, whether it be fashion or whether it be like social trends, they're saying, here's what's in for 2024 and here's what's out. And so without a ton of research or preparation, Alex and I thought we'd take a stab at leadership trends and, and work trends, what's in for 2024 and what is out for 2024. So let's pass this back and forth. Alex, what do you think is in for 2024? What's your— what's your first—

I was trying to understand as I saw some of these for like food and lifestyle, it's like, it's not just one's in, so the opposite is out, which we tend to do with RBL is like, here's the conventional wisdom, here's what you should do instead. So we're trying not to get into our old pattern in this. So it's more of just a list of maybe something that we feel is in and this might be on its way out. Um, so my first one, this is going to sound, um, It's one of our most basic concepts. It doesn't feel as sexy to even say it, but I love— it feels like getting back with your team and just reclarifying. We call it as a— it's more of a concept than a tool, like goals, roles, procedures. And it's kind of like old school, like, are we working on the right things? Do those match up with our departmental goals? And then do those marry up with some of our personal goals? Yeah. And then from there, with what's going on, like, are we playing the right role moving forward? And then what are our like 5 to 7 core procedures or processes to help us do all that? Like, is our team— we've had a lot of shift in staff, we've got new leaders— is everyone really aligned on those 3 things? I feel like taking a step back, you know, not doing any of our fancy tools and just having like a presentation of that, or just Informally clarifying that with your team really is like in right now. Like back to the basics, hit those 3 things.

Clarity.

Clarity.

Clarity.

Yeah, it's just clarity. It's old school clarity. But I'm seeing that when I bring it up, when I'm kind of at that point in a training, people are like, ah, that's it. We're just, we're going full speed, but we're not clear on goals. There's been a shift in priority. Let me get back to that. So that's something I'm seeing out there. Cy, anything you'd add or go on to your next thing?

I love that you threw that out there. What is in is Basics, clarity, repetition, and conversation. Because when people aren't clear on goals, roles, or procedures, the drama comes in. People are like— everybody looks like a jerk or an idiot, and people are inserting their personal preferences for the actual goals, roles, and procedures. Or, I like to do it this way. Well, what is the standard procedure? Quality care is standard care. Like, how are you out of compliance? And a lot of people are really feeling stress from lack of clarity and ambiguity. And I think it's a really great thing to recenter people into even clarity around what's their lane. Uh-huh. You know, if I were CEO, I wouldn't do this or that. Good news, you aren't CEO. So back to your lane. And I think people don't realize how much stress is self-imposed in their life because they aren't clear about, um, the 3 lanes in life. Lane 1, my business, my accountability. If I get out of that lane, I'm under-responsible for what I am to deliver and over-responsible for everybody else's. Lane 2, other people's business. If I come out of my lane, I need to come out helping, not judging. Lane 3, how the world should work. And That is a conversation I'm having so often lately. People are like, I'm super stressed. And I'm like, you know, the 3 lanes, what lane are you in? If you were in your lane, what would you be doing to have impact? Well, I would go out and see if there's a way we could work differently with that group. Awesome. Then go out in lane 2, their business, and, and, and help. Okay. And I think that is super in for 2024, getting minimalist and clear. And having those conversations that we are just assuming everybody knows, and they're inserting their individual version of what they think. And it's really causing lack of alignment and lack of teamwork.

Yeah, because I've, you know, the thing that's been hitting me lately in some sessions is that roles, so goals, roles part. I'm like, well, here are the 3 main roles is in any situation, you'll be the decision maker. You might be asked to be like a consultant, like what are the options to go towards that goal? And the risks with each one. Or you might be to be informed, which is someone that's just, you know, getting the update or responding to the new law, the regulation, the policy, and our jobs to risk mitigate. And people are really struggling to like, they want to, they're like, well, I should have been consulted. I'm like, but did they ask you? No, they went with an external consultant. I'm like, oh, so in this situation, you weren't that. So where are you at? To be informed. And other times they might ask you, but this time they didn't. So I was just— when I'm working with people to settle into that role without— they're all equal value, then I realize that, oh, I'm in the wrong spot. They don't agree with the goals of the organization. It's like a group that was a small bank, now they're going on a growth path or an acquisition path. They're like, well, I just want to work— actually, I'll tell you the truth— at a small bank in Wisconsin. I'm like, well, this current company is going on a huge growth path, so let's play that out. Like, how long is this lack of goal alignment, personal and the organization, going to work? So I realized that model gives me a starting point as kind of there's someone there to help, is I always— I mean, roles, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm off track here. They're not, they're not on board with the goals of their organization. No way they're going to settle into the roles, and then they're fighting all the new procedures. So it's just like you said, leads to a ton of conflict, a ton of frustration. So I've seen that as like a step back for everyone. It leads to a ton of clearing up the fog. So that was, that's my first one out there.

I love it. And clarity. I think when you clarify goals and roles, and the procedures become less important because Because a lot of people are like, we need to know exactly how this should be done. I'm like, well, if people are smart and clear on goals and clear on their roles, like, they'll come up with innovative procedures. And so, I want to throw out that segue because I think what's out is overmanaging people and overmanaging people through procedures and how the work should be done. I think we kill innovation. Now, I'm all for standardization and those types of things.

A few set, like, Systems or non-negotiables. Yeah.

Yeah, outside the non-negotiables. So I think what's out is leaders over-managing people. And I think it's more about managing the energy of people and managing energy away from why we can't to how we could, or what would great look like, and what if we could. And so I just think that so many leaders— we do need in many organizations people returning back to work, but not to be micromanaged. And you're not working if your butt's not in the chair. That's old. But to be involved in the type of collaborative work we need to do as part of our role, and let's get everybody here at the same time to actually be able to do that. So, I would say overmanaging, underleading's out, managing people rather than energy of people.

Yeah, no, I'd love that. Well, the one that's been out for a while, but I would just say, I think this one we have to keep out. Uh, is like, it's that person that, um, and I don't want to judge, but like that devil's advocate role.

That person being a devil's advocate just for the sake of—

Just for the sake of like every change, like you just can't say yes to at least the spirit of it, the goal of it. It's like, well, the first hand goes up and I tell the—

kill everything.

Uh-huh. The 10 things why it won't work. And the subtle shift there, I think— I don't— and it's not trying to shut down dialogue because I think we need more dialogue, but that dialogue shaped towards where we're trying to go. It really links to goals, roles, procedures, is you can say the same thing in a meeting, but say, good thing I'm here. Here are my 5 concerns that are going to maybe, um, have some risks in us getting to where you're trying to go. I'm here to be a willing player to mitigate the risk. And so that's like opinions, devil's advocate, why we won't work. It just moves the same concern into expertise And how it could work. And so it's that, like, moving from that position of the devil's advocate that just talks about the problem side into someone that's like, here's how it could happen. I think that shift is out. And then I said I wasn't gonna do that, but that's what's in. That's the little course correction.

I agree, because a lot of us think we add value by stopping the action. And most of the time we stop the action with our opinions. We're like, here's why I don't think that will work. And we really— I want that to be out. Like, opinions are out. If you're giving input, make it be expertise and make it focused on how we, how we could.

Well, and Sai, you taught me a lesson. You said the challenge with that is your response when you're in fear or it's something new or there's ambiguity or it's— you got some risk ahead is you say no and play that position. But the moment you say no, you're out. Yeah, actually, you can't influence anyone. Yes is where you can then steer it with your expertise. And I've always stuck with that lesson that you taught is like, you don't even want to be that no stance unless it's illegal, immoral, unethical, because then you can't get it back on track. You— there's no way to contribute from there.

The best answer is, okay, I see where you're going and I'm in. Now let's talk about how.

Oh

yeah, let's talk about what we might need to be concerned about. And I think that's super important. I think opinion Opinions are out. I think it's a cheap shot and cheap bonding. If people want to be heard and listened to and included, and they want their expertise leveraged around the table, then give expertise, not opinions. And I think opinions are out. I think, you know, it's not about diversity. It's not about any of that. Opinions are out. You know what I think is in, and I preach all the time, I hope it's in finally, shared accountability. Like so many workplaces, the leader is supposed to engage the people. And so the engagement survey measures, whether the leaders did their— and it's like, you guys, it's all about shared accountability, engagement. Are you leaning forward and towards, and is your leader, you know, welcoming? Like accountability shared, you know, responsibility for whether coming back to work in the office works and is, you know, meaningful has a lot to do with you and how you come back. Yeah. And so I think so many times people are handing over, outsourcing their wellbeing, and then being mad when somebody doesn't deliver it for them. Mm-hmm. And so I think this whole outsourcing my happiness, outsourcing my engagement, outsourcing my career path, like, that's out. What is in, in the organizations I'm working with, is shared accountability, even for your career path. Like, you know, people are like, they think that responsibility for their career path is, at my performance review, I tell you I'm ready to be promoted. It's like, well, share that accountability. Talk to me all year long about what your career goals are, and we'll talk about things you can take on and responsibilities, or people you can connect with, or even lateral job moves you can make in order to make that a likelihood. Yeah. But sitting back and reminding me that you would like to be paid more and have a bigger position in the organization is outsourcing your career path To me as a leader, and then anytime we outsource, how do you know you're outsourcing? You're mad at the person for not delivering what you wanted. It's what are you doing to get what you want? You're asking me to work harder at your happiness and success than you are. So I think what's in is thank God shared accountability.

Yeah, I you it's funny you said I was looking at my phone because one of my network kind of colleagues, my crowdsource, sent over. Unhappy workers cost US firms $1.9 trillion. It's like hot off the press. And so I was like, I gotta read this thing and dive deeper. And it got back to like leaders not doing good efforts for engagement. And, and I know there's a part of that, but I love where you say shared accountability is, yes, leaders have a responsibility, but where's the responsibility of each of us to lean into meeting in the middle there? And, uh, You know, it sat with me one of the podcasts we just did with Shed, and he said for the speak-up culture, it's at least 51%. You know, it's like leaders are maybe 51%, not 49%. And I love that. It's like shared accountability. And all those things you said, engagement, your career path, leaning in. And I think there's something human in us. I'm, you know, me being younger, you've been at your career a long time. And it's like you actually, when you bring in that shared accountability and a lot of invitations to that, some leaders think I, Like, I don't want to throw it back on my team. They're already struggling enough. But it actually brings people in and it shows that you believe they're capable, I feel like, and it empowers the next generation and it brings hope back and it brings like purpose back that you're a part of co-creating this. And I feel like a lot of leaders are missing that in fear of like people leaving or being too hard on them. And I think a lot of, you know, people are wanting that right now. Like, like, call me up to shared accountability for this. Don't just say, Yeah, I'll run out and try and deliver this for you. So that's my read on it, but maybe I'm just different in how I see that.

I agree. And I think so many people are chronically disappointed in leaders and, you know, their workplaces, and they forget that they are part of their workplace and their culture. They are not a neutral force. They are not the victims in this. And even, you know, I've worked with so many coaching clients lately where they're like, not getting what they want in the workplace. And I'm like, well, where do you need to evolve next? Like, how are you on setting boundaries? Right? People take advantage of me and they just expect me to work all the time. And I'm like, well, how are you doing in setting boundaries? And one perfect example, one of the female execs I work with was so mad because in her view there was this good old boys club and they would have these meetings that she wouldn't get involved with, and she would just want to collude with me about how that sucked and the patriarchy sucks and all of that sucks. And, you know, like, as long as I have this environment, like, my choices are to leave or— I'm like, what if this was the moment you learned how to get included in naturally exclusive environments? And she went all over the place. Are you blaming the victim? Are you doing this? I'm like, what's one thing you could do to make sure you were in the meetings you need to be in? And she said, well, I meet with my boss every week. I could ask him what meetings he has coming up, and as his financial resource, let him know which ones that I would need to be included in. And I'm like, like, be an adult. Like,

that's so powerful.

Then she did this thing where she goes, oh, but I shouldn't have to. I'm like, you were almost great until your ego came calling. And she's like, well, that's a ridiculous thing to learn. I said, reviewing people and telling them where you need to be included to best maximize you as a resource is part of your job. Like,

that's so powerful.

She came back a couple weeks later and she's like, It was so easy. He just didn't know. He has these spontaneous meetings and I just tell him when I'm supposed to be in there. And now he'll even call me and say, this is the meeting I'm having. Is this one of those things I'm supposed to have you in?

Yes. Now the behavior's like trained. It's so funny because I guarantee that group just feels like, about time you showed up. We need some clarity in here. You know, you've, you've turned down 3 meetings we tried, you know, a while back and we just thought you didn't wanna be with us. So there's a lot of, I'm not giving that just the benefit to that. That could be bad behavior in some cases, but it's—

Probably microaggressions all over that, probably. But here's how I work with you. If my current situation is I need to work with you and you don't know how to use me and you exclude me, then I'm going to just take a bigger role in telling you when to include me. Um, and just show up at some of those things.

Like, I remember some of your coaching to me early in my career, like, um, you would kind of— it's a little bit of a thinking inside the box. You just say, so your goals to be included, what are— let's say those are all true. Patriarchy that what's the next thing you could try? And you just stay like annoyingly persistent to your goal. And eventually like that happens where all of a sudden they're like, well, geez, just show up. Like you, a story you told me was like someone wouldn't show up to your trainings and eventually your goal was to get this dang guy in the training. You're like shared accountability here. Well, let's just and you went right to his cube and started the training awkwardly with like twelve people. And the guy got so mad. He's like, why don't we have a room for this? You're like, well. We do have a training room. It's got food. You should show up. There's food in there.

Come with us.

So it's not that you need to do that, but it's like that, that mindset is you got your goal, shared accountability. There could be some bad behavior in there. And obviously if it's so bad, you leave in peace. But it's like that. And you break through and you realize what a lot of that limitation was, was more your story, not the reality. So I don't know if that links, but I remember that story when you bring this up.

Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing that is out, um, personally, I'll just end with this. So we have 3 and 3. I think only worrying about yourself and your place in life and your happiness and your convenience and your flexibility, I think it's out. And I think it's a dead end. Like people are like, but I could keep moving jobs every year and get more money. And then I'm like, ask yourself if more money is what you want, or do you want deeper contribution? Or like, I think we have to really be careful on how we are boiling down our metrics. And that if a metric is I just continue to maximize my position at everyone's expense, and then you wonder why you're not happy and don't feel connected and don't feel like other people are sponsoring you and don't feel, you know, included. Mm-hmm. I, I think it's out to just measure the world in one metric, which is how I benefited. And I hope what is coming in is that people are really measuring their world in not just my happiness, but the happiness of others I contributed to. Not just did I get flexibility in my schedule, but did I enable my colleagues to get flexibility in theirs? Not just on their life easier, but did I make people's jobs easier? Like those, you know, that's how personally

I'm

glad you said that.

I had this idea we talked about briefly once together and it seemed to resonate with you. It's like it goes with are you focused on your preference or potential? That's kind of the high-level question. But it was like this flipped thing where are you focusing on the— it's like the preference. So first, the potential of the, let's say, the patient or your customer. That's like the main focus. And then that's— then you think about the potential of your organization, potential of your team, and then maybe underneath that it's like your personal preference in there. So you're kind of looking at those layers. That's your North Star. And that feeling that it's been flipped— I've been feeling it out there. It's like my preference, my stuff, make sure I get my hours, my pay. Then I'll think maybe a little bit about my team in these short relationships I've had. And then very rarely am I thinking about the organization, like enterprise-wide The goals, and then it's almost like the customer, the patient's like last on my mind. You know, not always. I'm not blanketing the statement, but it felt like that was completely flipped. And then people wonder why they don't have a lot of hope or purpose, or it's like because you're it's actually auto it's all the way flipped. You're not really connected to that higher, you know, mission. So that's that really hit for me when you said that.

Yeah, and the way I use that is when people would as a leader ask me for. Unexpected time off. And unexpected time off, meaning not emergency. We've got medical leave, we've got family leave, we've got emergency leave. We even have— if you've been really good to your colleagues and something unexpected come up, they're usually pretty good at covering for you. But when somebody would say, hey, I was— something came up, I'd love to go out with my friends on Tuesday, can I get Tuesday off? I would say, I would love to get you Tuesday off because I like to see you with your friends, but here's the gates I go through. Um, patient first. Well, giving you that time off jeopardized the patient. That same person who doesn't care about jeopardizing the patient when they want time off is the first one to say, I'm advocating for the patient and being critical of the organization. Like, I'm like, true.

So true.

Does it hurt the patient? Nope, we seem to have adequate staffing. Um, now let's look at, um, the organization. Does it set a preference that would marginalize somebody else? Does it put somebody else in danger? Or now let's look at your team. Is it, you know, do you ask for this every month or is this kind of a one-off? Is there any negative impacts on the team? And then trust me, in the absence of negative impacts, this team is flexible. We'll work to get you time off. Now, a lot of people go, oh my gosh, I'm burnt out. I'm like, oh, timeout, burnt out, totally different topic. That's mental health. We've got ER or EAP. We've got, raise your hand, timeout. You don't feel safe right now to care for patients. We will move into then, um, you know, the, the mental health resources we have to get you time off if you're burnt out. That's a whole different thing than you wanted a day off with friends. We have a whole different decision-making metric that goes there. It goes patient first. We can't have burnt-out caregivers with our patients, so we're going to relieve you from duty and call in temporary help. Like, yes, you'll get the day off, but getting back onto work. Mm-hmm. You have to show me you've done the work to learn boundaries and ask for help and, you know, manage your workload and all those things. Like, so having those conversations, I think people, you know, right now want to maximize staying home, flexibility, not having to ever get dressed or come into work. They're also reporting the highest number of depression episodes, the highest number amount of loneliness that we've ever seen, the, you know, amounts of stress. And it's like, well, wait a minute. Mm-hmm. Are you doing the whole math? Because research would tell us that even at times a tough commute keeps you resilient. Like, there's muscles you're not using that then you will not have when you need them in life. Like, being a member of a community, it's like, no, I just want to do my job and I don't want to have any responsibility to my team members. Well, you can do that, but you also— are you doing— do you know the whole cost of that? And that's where I get concerned about people doing really quick, inaccurate math. It's ego math. It's how do I maximize my position? And then why do I wonder why my loneliness is high? And, you know, my depression's high and all of that stuff.

Well, good stuff. I am— we would love to hear from you, everyone else.

Let's get this out. That'd be fun.

What's out? Are we close? Are we way off? What are you feeling out there? What maybe— what are your hopes in and out moving forward? So those are all—

would you like to be out? And what would you like to be? And

love it. Well, we'll see you soon.

Kind of at my limit emotionally.