A 4-Pillar System for Creating Engaging Business Presentations with Richard Doust

Welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast, where we talk with entrepreneurs, founders, and leaders at B2B services, tech, and SaaS companies to learn the systems and processes they've used to create success for their business. We'll also learn from marketing and sales experts to provide insights to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and the podcast is brought to you by Modern Revenue Strategies and their 10x ROI B2B Growth Guarantee. Schedule a free diagnostic call to learn the fastest path to double your B2B revenues in just 90 days. Hello and welcome to another episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint Podcast. I'm Mark Osborne, your host, and today I'm very excited to welcome our guest. We're gonna have a very interesting conversation. Our guest is Richard Doust. He's a UK native who now lives in Strasbourg, France. He has a decade of coaching and acting experience in Europe and the USA, is a dynamic and accomplished multilingual business coach, actor, and leadership facilitator. He's fluent in English, French, German, and conversational in Italian and Russian. I have to read this in order to get all this right. He possesses really unique ability to bridge cultural gaps and foster impactful collaborations. In his coaching program called The Speaking Flow, he specializes in customizing communication styles to enhance the persona of leaders, focusing on language refinement and body language nuances that align with your leadership identity. Richard assists international professionals in expressing their ideas freeing them from feelings of inadequacy and empowering them to overcome language-related self-doubt, and so they can really command the room. So Richard, I'm so excited to have you, and we're going to have a really interesting conversation today. Welcome to the show.

Well, thank you so much. I'm really pleased to be here. It's really great.

Yeah, thank you. So your work's really interesting, and, and I think, although not, you know, on the nose as some of our other guests are, really relevant for our audience that tends to be sort of CEOs, founders, leaders at, you know, boutique professional service firms or early-stage B2B SaaS technology firms because often these individuals are, you know, sort of they're leading the sales and marketing efforts for their company. So they might be the face of their company or the face of their solution. And as such, they might be making presentations to investors as they're looking for financing. They are almost definitely making presentations to, you know, potential customers and prospects as they're trying to, you know, grow deals and grow the business. And they're oftentimes trying to sort of rally their troops and get their teams engaged so their employees are really all on one page. So I think that a lot of the insights you can share with us today will be really relevant to our audience in that context. I know you've done a lot of work in the business context. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so I mean, I've worked— I work with both individuals and also, you know, more in a corporate setting where I'm looking at managers, CEOs as well. So I'm on both fronts, if you like. In the corporate setting, and I have different sorts of managers, you know, I mean, different cases. One of the big aspects that I'm really working on right now as well in the coaching offer that I do is the relationship between confidence and authority, you know, to inspire We have to have confidence in you. If you're going to inspire us, we have to have a kind of a minimal level that you've got confidence, everyone's got confidence that this communication is going to hold up. And I've been working with some people who don't have that, and they still have to lead a team, and they still have to inspire people every day and stand up there. And sometimes they have these bigger meetings, don't we? We know about those bigger meetings coming up next Tuesday morning, the big crunch meeting where I have to present the figures, whatever. And there, you know, I have one client— thinking of one client right now as I say this. He's just sweating every time, you know, he's sweating his palms. He can't sleep the night before, and he's trying to sort of learn everything that he's going to say to make sure what he says holds up. And I've, you know, we've worked together, we've kind of started working together maybe now 3 or 4 sessions. It's terrible. It's a real pain point for him, you know. That's one kind of extreme that I'll be working with. You know, another guy I was working with has very basic English, trying to lead a multinational company where he has to interact regularly with people. But interestingly, he has far fewer problems about confidence. So he can actually, you know, and I've been sort of helping him and coaching him, giving him some tips and stuff. But actually, once he finds the right attitude to what is going on, he can switch on that confidence and find ways through, um, and actually engage people. And people, you know, then people take everything on board. Okay, he's got an accent. Okay, his English is basic, but somehow he's getting through to us. We can feel he's connected and he's, yeah, confident. So he has a kind of authority, even though, you know, you, you know, you might think the, the opposite was true. So, um, these are some of the things that I— these are some of the sort of domains I'm working in. Different things again when you're working with coaches and consultants more on the, you know, let's say B2C, more individual level, then, you know, there's a whole nother different kettle of fish or can of worms as we say. So yeah, lots to think about, lots to explore in this field. This is actually quite fascinating for me is the relationship between confidence and authority and how we can work on those 2 things. But we can talk more about that in a while.

Yeah, that's really interesting and I think worth talking about because You know, in B2B, we're always really trying to build, you know, credibility and trust because we want our audience to sort of believe that, you know, we have the ability or the credibility to deliver what we say we can deliver. And then we want them to trust that the promises that we make will come through. And oftentimes, you know, in a marketing or sales environment, authority, building authority is a good way to gain that credibility and trust because if they see you as a, as an authority, they'll sort of defer to your recommendation on how to do things as a way to do it. When we were talking a little bit before, you also talked about one of the important ways of, you know, connecting with an audience is a little bit of vulnerability and sort of opening up that, that ability to build rapport. I'm curious how you see those things working together, you know, in a business, you know, sort of performance environment where people are trying to build that credibility and trust, you know, build some authority in the mind of the prospect while also trying to, you know, be authentic and vulnerable in a way that, you know, builds that rapport and that real human connection. Talk to me about that.

Yeah. So these— so yeah, you're honing in on 2 kind of aspects, the vulnerable kind of side and the very sort of confident side. But, you know, and they seem to be opposites. But in fact, vulnerability works because we have a— you must have a certain amount of confidence to let yourself become vulnerable in front of people. And interestingly, you know, we decode all that without really thinking about it. But if you about it. Someone who's vulnerable and dares to do that in front of you, they have somewhere in them, there's a kind of core confidence level that they have. Otherwise, they would just not do it. They would clam up. They would push you back. So they are kind of linked. I mean, I can tell one story about vulnerability, which I found so interesting. I was leading a 5-day workshop for managers, 25 managers. This was actually I've done this all over Europe and also in the US, but this was actually in Budapest in Hungary. People from totally different countries, you know, Romania, Moldavia, Budapest, of course, Hungary, Germans, French people, all sorts of different countries. So I was speaking my very best international English, you know, not being too idiomatic, trying to keep things simple. And one of the tasks was to tell a story. And we had this, this guy János. And everyone knew that János spoke really, really basic English, hardly speaking it at all. So every time I'd be speaking, I'd look over to János and I'd say some of the things very, very clearly to him. But the task was everyone had to tell a story with a message, come up in front of everyone, tell a story with a message. So, you know, we go through the people, everyone's going through their story, and then it's kind of János's turn. And everyone knows, you know, that Janos, he can barely, you know, he can barely speak English. So, and so what are we going to do? I look around and there was some talk about maybe him having an interpreter. He'll tell his story, someone could tell it, you know, he speaks Czech, he doesn't speak English, right? So an interpreter, one of his colleagues. So there was talk of that and I looked around as Janos started to walk up just to present. No, no translator. So everyone's sort of saying, well, what's going to happen? How on earth is this guy going to tell a story? You know, how on earth is he going to just— what's he going to do? You know, where's the interpreter? Everyone starts looking, but isn't there an interpreter? How is it going to work? You know, everyone's kind of panicky. Janusz comes up like this and looks at us all, and there's a big moment of suspense, and we're wondering what's going to happen. I'm thinking— I'm leading this whole thing— I'm thinking, What, you know, what, what, what's going to happen with this whole thing? And suddenly he starts to, in very broken basic English, but you can really hear it, you can really understand it, he starts to tell the story of someone who overcame their fear of judgment because they couldn't speak English. And this is the story he starts to tell in basic— his story, his story. He's going— suddenly we realize he's telling his story, his moment now. His message is, you can get over this. Look, I'm doing it. That's his message. Look, I'm telling— I'm getting over this barrier, this fear of being judged and all those things that we can live through when we do public speaking. And he's telling us, and that's his message. And everyone in the whole group of managers were like just blown away by this. And we're all, oh no, what an amazingly strong moment. And everyone came up to him afterwards and congratulated him. And, you know, it just really goes to show there's— you can have the most basic level, you can have a very bad accent, you can— there are many things you can have wrong. Or, you know, you maybe speak too fast or not clearly, or you mumble, all those things. But if you can somehow connect and get into what your message is and then, you know, embody that, then, um, you could— you can communicate with anyone and really inspire. He inspired us. with, you know, like 15 words of English. He inspired us. So, so that's one of the stories of, you know, where you look at when you think what was going on. Yeah, vulnerability, you know, he had to come out there and do that. But at the same time, somewhere it's about the confidence that he managed to get to bring to that situation.

That's really interesting.

So, you know, in my work you get all this kind of interesting work going on. So it's, it's fascinating. fascinating subject. But it's interesting as well, everyone is different, you know. So I have a kind of system that I go through with my clients and so on to, to make sure we catch everything, uh, because it is better, of course, if you do speak, you know, with more confidence, if— and you do, you know, improve your accent, it is better, of course, right? But it's not so essential as some people seem to think as well.

That's interesting. Yeah, so, you know, doing a lot of work in, you know, marketing and sales, I'm sort of personally very interested in kind of research into persuasion and decision-making and how, you know, how ideas spread, how people get persuaded by an idea. And one of the things that's, you know, pretty commonly agreed to be, you know, a truth and a fact is reciprocity is one of the big things that, you know, sort of like deepens your rapport with someone. It also makes you more persuasive if, you know, they— and that's why, you know, there's the old joke that you go to the bank or you go someplace and they give you a pen. Well, now you feel like you owe them something. They gave you a pen. And I actually have, you know, a colleague that I work with who's like, you know, if you ever want to like make friends in a neighborhood, as soon as you move into a new house, like go borrow a cup of sugar from everyone. Because even though you owe them, there's now this sensation of connectedness and this sort of reciprocity that exists there. And I think the same thing is probably true in, you know, sort of making that connection of showing vulnerability yourself sort of invites them to be more vulnerable and more truthful to you, which is one of the best ways to really understand the business challenges, the professional challenges that they're dealing with, even as they pertain to them personally, which once you understand those things, you can make a much more compelling business presentation and a much more sort of compelling pitch for your product or service in a marketing and sales environment and really deepen that relationship. So that's really interesting there.

No, it's a very, it's a, you know, obviously you're becoming vulnerable. It gives them the space For them to also look at their vulnerability, their weaknesses. Well, they know they can look at that. They can even talk about it because you know you're you're you're kind of giving them that space by not sort of being you know brash and attacking them and everything, where then they feel they have to climb up. Yeah, it's really giving people space is is one of the key things. You know, it's it's working out what's what space am I working with? You know, what space is is is am I? allowing myself to, to occupy on a stage, for example, on a virtual screen like here. You know, we have our little, little theater here, our little modern theater where everything goes in here. You know, this is our stage, so we can, you know, appear, we can come on and go off, like, as you know, Shakespeare says, you know, every world's a stage. You know, we have our entrances and our exits. So yeah, there's a lot of What space are we allowing ourselves to work in is also a big question. And vulnerability creates a kind of bridge between people very strongly. And it's also how we humans work. We just love that too. We feel that connection and we are gregarious. We need that. It's part of our existence really.

There's actually, you know, in B2B, there's a lot of email, you know, sort of as a tool for marketing and outreach. And there's a trick that a lot of folks will use, which is to, sort of make a, a minor either grammatical or spelling error in one of the first lines because it sort of creates that vulnerability. And, and I think there's a balance there of you, you don't wanna come across as unprofessional or, oh, well, this is some, you know, offshore, you know, lead gen farm that's just cranking through, you know, thousands of emails. And as a result, they've made a mistake. But if you can do it in a way that sort of creates that vulnerability that pulls them in and gets them leaning into the conversation. It can be really powerful.

That's right. That's right. It's interesting how we then now you can ask probably ChatGPT to put these in, probably, can't you, into your emails and probably, and it'll do it. So we can manufacture, simulate authenticity. So this is a new thing, simulated authenticity. Wow. Where are we going with that? You know.

That will be interesting to see. So you mentioned a little bit earlier that you've got a process and it's interesting, you know, we talk about, you know, here one of our logos or one of our taglines is B2B growth systems to set you free because we see that like when you implement systems in your business, it creates a lot of freedom, like freedom from, you know, worrying about if this is gonna pay off or not. Like when you, you know, make investments in marketing or sales. Well, if you've got a system, you know, you know, sort of each step and you have more confidence in the results and Systems also sort of free you from conflict with other teammates because instead of you wagging your finger at someone saying they did a bad job, it's, well, the system let us down. So how do we collaborate together on that system, which is, you know, an objective object that doesn't have feelings, so we can criticize the system all we want and then work together on that. So we're big fans of systems, which, you know, Sometimes simultaneous with process, but certainly a part of it. You talked about having a process that you use. And, and we find it interesting that, you know, having these systems and processes oftentimes creates the opportunity for a lot more creativity. Talk to us a little bit about how in sort of this, you know, it's an art, certainly working with, with people to, you know, create these, these personas that they're delivering in, in sales presentations or in, you or company-wide meetings? What's your process that you use for doing that?

Yeah, so that's an interesting question. And of course, and right now I have a 4-pillar system really that I go through. And this has been refined. It's already about the 4th or 5th iteration really. And I think there may well be more, but it's now at a stage where I think it's really ready for takeoff, if you like. And indeed it is taking off. Um, um, it's something that, you know, I've, I've— where I have different sort of intuitions about what's going on when someone's on stage speaking. As also an actor, you know, someone who's been a performing actor as well, you have all these, all this information and experience going on. So I, I'm nourishing what I— the system that I produce with all this, in all these insights. And also, let's say, a very important part, because many of my clients are second language English speakers. And I have the chance, the luck if you like, to be quite experienced in being a second language speaker because I'm a second language speaker in French, in German, in Russian, and Italian. Not in English, okay? But I do, through all that, know English very well, very well. I know the language, you know. So, um, so that, that's some of the— I'm just telling you that to sort of build this up a bit because Really, what this system is based on is all those factors coming together, as well as a sort of science— I have a kind of scientific interest in the structure of storytelling and how we do that. How do we actually create suspense? What is, if you like, what's suspense made of? And I've done some research on that. But all that comes together for them. Right now, my system is 4 words: space, voice, character, and flow. And the big one, you know, is space. Now, what does this mean? It means command. We're talking about commanding the room, right? But we're really talking about pushing out with our elbows until we can feel, feel very big and that we can take on any, you know, space here. We can really fill it out.

Right.

This can be— I can either, either in the virtual space here like I'm showing you now, but I— we can simulate even at a distance, um, the real virtual stages, the real stage as well. So, and one of the big problems that, you know, many people come when they have something to resolve, some problem, some, you know, improvement they're looking for, is they start from where they are. And where they are usually is small and a little bit cramped. And, you know, they're not quite, um, you know, obviously that's why they're coming, right? Because they're starting from a kind of small sort of squashed-in energy-wise state, you know, that's, that's not so great, and it's not the best place to start. So what I try to do with my method is really first build this right out, really, really right out, so that we have the voice coming through really loud. Um, and also I work on specific words and specific English melodies. Now one of those— I could talk about this for a long time, but let's try, I'll try and keep this a bit shorter— one of those is the word, um, Pretty, maybe more UK than the US, I'm not sure. Right, right. Now, one way to say this is to really interrupt.

Right as in like, that's correct, like I agree?

No, no, right, we're gonna start it, right? You know, so you come into the room with a meeting, there's everyone's there, you know, sipping their cocktails, whatever. You need to start the whole thing. Um, they're all talking away, they don't care about you, they haven't seen you. You need to say something that gets them all going. So what do you do?

A pretty UK way to do that is go, right, okay, let's get started.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, in the US you might find another word, right? It could be okay, right? And if you listen to the melody, okay, right, you know, and that precise melody is the one that gives you the authority. Now, if you don't know that, now if you're a, you know, maybe if you're used to speaking and, you know, it's your mother tongue and so on, it's not a problem. Probably you hit up— you hit on that. But even the people, the mother— who speak English as their mother tongue can do this better once they know about it. Once they have a few key things going on, you can come into the room, you just— you've practiced it with Richard, and you come in and you do this, right? Or okay? Or now? You know, and this really, really— and at the beginning, I have clients, you know, I work a lot with French clients, for example. They write, they're doing right, small. Okay, you know, first thing to do is kind of open them out so that they can really take that space. That's one example. Um, and so we work with that specific melodies, and it's all around as well how English works. You know, one of the big questions, um, that, that I kind of ask clients is what do they know about how emotion is, is transmitted, is passed through a language, right? You have a language, you have emotion. How do they work together in that language? How does emotion get, get passed on, get told, get felt in that language? Now, and there are— the answers are different for different languages, right? Now, English is a language where the stress, which syllable is stressed, is really important. If you get that wrong If you get that, if you get that wrong, if you get that wrong, if you get that, you know, those that you're going to be, you're getting into shape. If you, if you don't say the right, if the wrong thing is important, then, you know, we, you're all the emotion in the world is not going to come through to us, right? It's, that's how it works. And it's interesting to me that, you know, we haven't really talked about this enough. This is a real subject that I think needs a lot of, a lot more light shone on it. Different languages work with emotion in different ways, and that's what you need to figure out. Now, for English, I've got a pretty good idea. I work a lot with that, and I have some really good ideas about those specific melodies that you can use when you're speaking English that give you that authority, that give you that capacity to interrupt a room of 500 people, no problem. You know, I worked with a Spanish woman. She had to deal sort of direct, lead these huge international conferences, meetings with EU scientists. She would come into the room, no one listened to her. We worked with right, just one word, you know, one coaching session, right, until she got it right. And she came back the next time, I said, Richard, Richard, I just said right. And they all sat down immediately and started to look at me. So, you know, there's sometimes the very simple things are the most important. So that, if you like, is space. Then we go on to voice, and we go to character and flow. Now, you know, um, and I don't want to maybe to take up the whole podcast with all that, but, um, perhaps some words. Yeah, voice, voice, we're looking at, um, going a bit deeper into the words and the accent maybe some people have, um, what you can do. Now, I work with all sorts of people from different mother— different, you know, languages. Some even native speakers want to change some things about their accent as well. So it's, it's always a topic. Um, and, you know, different nationalities have different problems. You know, with French people, um, you know, I, I can do the French accent if you like. It's very easy to do the French accent. But, you know, I can do the other— I can do the German accent as well. It's not also not so difficult. I, I kind of do the Italian accent. It is also not a problem. And I can do Russian accent as well. So, you know, you have all these, all these sort of filters that people come, come at you with. Um, now my work is not to say, you know, this is rubbish, start again, learn, learn to speak proper English. It's to pick out and choose with the client what things are going to be— he's going to keep from his accent. Some accents are so charming, they're so beautiful, we love them, we like listening to them. It's part of the persona, so we don't want to rub all that out. But there are some things that hinder comprehension, slow us down, you know, demand cognitive effort from our audience, and that's what we want to work on. So we're looking at voice, then we move on to character. I'm going through quickly now. Character is more about the timing, the body language, the gaze, how you use your gaze. For example, one thing that you can— that people don't do enough is this. So I was, I was thinking the other day about How to resolve this problem? And it's breaking gaze, you know, breaking the gaze, allowing yourself to go to an inner gaze. And this also, it's like vulnerability. It attracts the audience in. They try to think with you. They're trying to see what you're going to say. They understand that you're looking for your words, that you're— yeah, that's the word. Um, so that's— this is more like that, the gen— the whole character, if you like. And then Flow is really taking away all the little breaks that could stop you, that slow you down. Some of this mental mindset stuff, some of it's technical language stuff, just making the whole thing just explode so that we really know where we're going. We just, you know, we just let loose then. It's letting go. In fact, the last step is letting go of everything that we've been controlling and working on. So there you go.

That's a masterclass in communication there in the last I guess 2 or 3 minutes there. So thank you for that. That's amazing. So obviously you've got a really well-worn process and you've got a lot of experience delivering a lot of success for here. So, you know, for our audience that's listening, that's like, wow, there's obviously opportunity to get better and to improve. What would be—

Absolutely.

What would be sort of a piece of advice that you would give to that founder who's like, I wanna, I wanna make a big, a bigger impact every time I speak. What's one piece of advice that they can get started on today that will sort of improve their process?

Yeah. Now, there are things to do. Now, not all of them are easy to do on your own, right? This is the thing. Quite often, we do need someone who's gonna validate, who's gonna guide you on the process. Certainly, one of the big things that I think needs doing Is is this bringing out the space, opening up the space so that you really feel you're inhabiting. You know, you're inhabiting this space. You can really. It's it's like practicing being big. If you start being big enough, many of the small problems just disappear. You know, this is my experience. Be bigger, and the little sort of niggly things where you think I'm not sure if I'm saying this right. I'm not sure if that's good. You know, is this the right word? And blah blah blah, and all those things. All those things just fade away if you're big. So it's like, you know, open up the height, depth, width, your face as well, of course, you know, the whole thing. Just appear like a giant and all your worries will disappear. That's roughly what Richard would say in that case. That's one thing to work on. Now, that's not so easy to work on on your own. If you'd say someone to do that, you know, on the internet, you get all these tips, public speaking tips, you know, it's just like 10 tips to improve your public speaking. Has anyone ever done those tips and learned and improved something? Maybe one, you know, or every now and then you read one thing. Most of it is really basic stuff. It's like, oh yeah, practice your text beforehand or stuff like that. Oh, I didn't think of that. Oh, is that a good idea? Wow. You know, most of it's like that. Or, you know, look at your audience. Oh yeah, okay, you mean I shouldn't tell it like this? Okay, I should look at my No, it's like most of it's like that. But one of this advice about the space that I'm talking about now, you know, if you just take that on, what will happen is, okay, we need to work on space. Richard said open out the body, open, open it up. Okay. And what people will do instead of doing this, they'll do this, right? They'll do. And yes, there is progress.

Yes, yes, yes.

But you need someone in front of you to say, no, go there.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, now go there. Yeah, now go there. And after a while, the guy or the lady or whoever is talking like this, and it's just, you know, rolling away. And they've got that high level, and then many of their problems are just suddenly disappearing. Why? Because they, they are speaking in a way that their brain understands. Anyone who speaks like this must be really confident. The— your brain reflects that back to you. He says, wow, if you're speaking loud and big like that, You must be so confident. And then you think, oh yeah, I suppose I am. I am confident. Look at me. I could— how could I not be confident if I'm speaking like that? So you see, there's a play between confidence and space and how we fill it out. So that would be one of— that's always the first thing I'd look for, you know. After that, it does depend a bit on where people are, um, you know, with, with, uh, with their voice and so on. Um, but, uh, And, you know, and finding the right stress and the right words and so on, finding the emotion in the words, connecting those 2 things. That's like the next step, if you like. But that, yeah, that would be where I'd be going for a starter.

That's a great tip. I've learned a lot and I'm someone that has spent a lot of time studying persuasive language and communication. And so this has been great for me. I'm sure our audience has learned a lot as well. So Richard, if people want to get in touch with you and they want to learn more about how they could, you know, work from the— with the Speaking Flow to learn how to be bigger, how to fill that space, how to command more of their audience, what would they do? What should they do?

Yeah, they should get in touch with me through my website or online. Of course, I'm easily found online on LinkedIn and so on as well. Richard Douce. There are not many of those. My website's thespeakingflow.com. Speakingflow.com. So you can go on there, send me a line, send me an email. There's a little button at the top, just leave an email, send me a message through the website. Um, and I'm willing to, for the first 10 people who come through, say they came through your, um, your podcast, you know, to give them, give people a kind of a little, what can I say, a little analysis of where they are at, listen to some of their questions, give them a bit of advice, give them the first tips, if you like, about what they should be focused on, you know, when I've heard what the situation is with how they're speaking, how they want to speak, what they think some of their hang-ups are. Um, the first kind of exchange, 15, 20 minutes, maybe a bit longer in some cases, we'll see. I'm willing to do that for free, but only the first 10 that get the— get this message, that click on that email that's sent, the first 10 emails that come through saying they've seen your podcast. So I'm willing to do that, but that would be great to, to connect with your audience a bit as well and see what, what kind of issues come up. Maybe there are some that I haven't seen yet, which is always interesting. So yeah, that's what I would suggest.

That's amazing. A great offer. Thank you so much for making that offer. I'm sure you'll get some folks take you up on that. So again, Richard Dowse from The Speaking Flow, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to our audience about how they can use their language and character and voice and flow. I think I got some of those pillars, some of those pillars right. As they communicate with their audience to build that authority and credibility and trust that's so important in the B2B space. Thank you again.

Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining this episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast. We hope you've gained insights to grow your business. If you enjoyed this discussion, please Please rate, comment, like on your favorite platform and share to others who will find it useful. Do you know a CEO, founder, or leader at an early-stage B2B services, tech, or SaaS company who would like to be a guest and share their story? Send us a note. Let's schedule a conversation.

Thank you, Mark.