How AI is Helping Small Teams Compete with Big Brands with Brian Graf

Welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast, where we talk with entrepreneurs, founders, and leaders at B2B services, tech, and SaaS companies to learn the systems and processes they've used to create success for their business. We'll also learn from marketing and sales experts to provide insights to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and the podcast is brought to you by Modern Revenue strategies and their 10x ROI B2B growth guarantee. Schedule a free diagnostic call to learn the fastest path to double your B2B revenues in just 90 days. Hello and welcome to another episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and today I'm very excited to welcome my guest, Brian Graff. Now I'm gonna read Brian's bio to make sure I get this right. Brian is a high-impact fractional B2B SaaS marketing leader with a track record of transforming B2B SaaS marketing functions into mature, high-growth departments. As CEO of Kalungi, a premier B2B SaaS marketing agency, he has helped numerous companies increase their revenue by implementing data-driven go-to-market strategies and building high-performing teams. Through his writing and the B2B SaaS Marketing Snacks podcast, Bryan shares actionable insights that enable SaaS marketers and executives to drive measurable results and accelerate growth. His mission is to empower businesses to unlock their full potential through the power of strategic marketing. So Bryan, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much. I'm glad to be here. The bio sounds so official when you read it out loud. But thanks so much. Yeah, really excited.

Yeah. So obviously you've done a lot of great stuff and you've got a really interesting background that you and I have talked about. Why don't you kind of, you know, give our audience your story of kind of, you know, what you did and how you got to where you are today?

Yeah, my story is, it's almost a story about timing more than anything. I started my career in television advertising doing a lot of data analytics. was, was very much in the MySQL and data visualization side of things. So not much in the marketing, more on campaign optimizations, but decided to get an MBA. After that, I focused on finance and marketing and did a few projects for brand strategy for software companies in the Seattle area. And just ended up linking up with this guy named Stein Hendricks during my time there and right afterwards. And we Got coffee a few times, and and he happened to be you know he had this cool idea where he he wanted to start a marketing agency and wanted to do things a little bit differently, and he needed a kind of a test money to to try it out with. And I you know got excited by the idea and jumped in and happened to be I don't know if I was actually the the first employee might have been the third, but you know one of the first and got to kind of be. Um, on the Kalungi ship from the ground level and have kind of, uh, rode it upward since then. I, you know, in Kalungi, I started out as a fractional CMO. Uh, so I, I, um, trained heavily under, you know, the man, the myth, the legend, Stijn Hendricks, and got to know his way of doing things really deeply. Um, since then I've worked with over, uh, 20 B2B SaaS companies as a marketing leader. Um, I built out the CMO function for Kalungi, and then, you know, since then have taken the reins as the CEO. So that kind of brings us to today. I think a lot of what I do right now is taking a higher-level look at marketing strategy for B2B SaaS companies and applying it in the right way, right, with the right frameworks to make my team successful, but also to make our clients as successful as possible. So. It's a fun job.

Well, and Kalungi has, you know, such a great reputation for really being able to serve as like an outsourced marketing function for companies because they bring all of the best practices and all of the capabilities together. Whereas a lot of sort of agencies will kind of spend money and maybe not be super accountable. Whereas I know Kalungi's model is much more strategic in its approach. And really much more system-based, which is great for, you know, SaaS companies that are building those, you know, kind of closed-loop systems and really repeatable models. I know one of those models that Kalungi has that I think is really interesting and somewhat different than what you might hear, you know, from an agency or from someone else is thinking about matching your go-to-market strategies with sort of your maturity level as a company. So, you know, as you think about companies that are just getting their first few customers or trying to ensure sure that they have product market fit versus companies that, you know, have that, you know, minimum viable product and now they're really trying to match that go-to-market and then that, you know, sort of that go-to-market strategy so they can really scale.

Yeah.

Things work at different stages, but oftentimes, you know, you hear gurus or people just saying like, go out and do this tactic, go out and do this tactic. Talk to us a little bit about that framework and how Guides the strategies and tactics that companies do.

Yeah, absolutely. So Kalungi, we're an agency that implements kind of the methodology and the theory of T2D3, which is the book that our founder created. T2D3 stands for triple your revenue 2 years in a row and double it 3 years in a row. So basically, how can you set up a system that enables your company to achieve exponential growth?

And the theory comes from, that comes from a pretty well-proven model in the B2B SaaS space where successful companies pretty consistently do that if they're doing it right, right?

Right. And the rule or the goal with that is really to how can we get to, you know, the rule of 40, right? Or even the rule of 50 now of profitable scalable growth, right? The key is that A lot of companies, whether they're early on or they are just not experienced in marketing, think, you know, hey, I've, I've built my product, right? I've gotten a few sales in the, in the door. I have funding, maybe it's time to grow. I'm going to turn on marketing, right? And money's going to start pouring in the door and, you know, it magically works from there. And of course, you and I know that that's not necessarily the case. Sometimes it works right that way, but often, often it does not. Um, and so what we have figured out is that, you know, there is a path for all companies to get to scalable growth, but you can't— we treat it like a base path right there. You can't skip stages. So first and foremost, of course, right, you need to hit minimum viable product. You need to be able to build a product that your market can appreciate, right? And that works and solves a particular problem. We almost like to say that you answer the question what it's for.

Right. Yeah.

But then from there, right, you need to be able to answer the question who it's for, like who, what target market actually benefits the most from your product. And often what's interesting is that that target market is different than the target market that you set out to build for, right? Which is, which is always a fun process to go through. But once that basically is who it's for. So once you solve that, then, then you start to really experience product market fit, which is where The market, you almost think you can see that the inbound flywheel starts to turn on its own, right? People, customers are paying, they're staying, and they're referring others. So then even without marketing, right, your business will grow. And marketing's job is really just to add momentum to that flywheel, right?

Yeah.

And then of course, from there you can start to scale, right? You have, at that point, you'll have demand generation channels that work. You'll have You'll have campaigns that work, messaging that works, right? Multiple audiences probably that you've, you've proven out. And then you can really start to say, I'm going to pour gas on what works, right? And start to, start to scale and then start to diversify. And then from there, you can really start to, start to focus on profitability and refining your CAC and your LTV to CAC ratio and everything like that. And so. What we have found, not to be too long-winded about this, is that each stage actually requires a very different type of marketing, right? You can't apply the— to be extreme about it, you can't apply the marketing strategy for Amazon to a startup, right? It just doesn't, it doesn't work. And so there are many evolutions of a marketing team that are required to get you around that base path. And so that's kind of what, that's what T2D3 preaches, but that's also what Kolungi really focuses on with a lot of our clients.

Yeah. And I think that's so important to think about is that you've got a thing now and then maybe your first pivot is who it's for as you described. And but it's so often kind of overlooked that a lot of folks think, well, once we've got product market fit, that's it. Like we're ready to go. Like now just pour all of the things on there, all the things that everyone does, we should be trying out and doing. And then they wonder, well, why isn't it working for us. And the reason is, and I love the concept of like go-to-market fit of, you know, you've got product market fit, but there are lots of ways to go to market with a product that is fit to a market. And depending upon what your cost to serve is and, you know, what your sort of margins are, you might have more sort of, you know, self-product-led growth functions that work well because you need to be more efficient, or you might have more kind of white glove sales-led, you know, kind of operations that sort of lead to it because you've got, you know, larger contracts and mismatching those things can really, you know, sort of be a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, absolutely, right? Like the go-to-market motion that you use, right? Of course, it needs to apply really really well to your customer acquisition costs, right? Because if it doesn't, you'll just, you will grow in an unprofitable way. And that's just not a spiral that you want to be a part of. But also, right, you need to think about the product that you're delivering and where your customers sit, like where they make decisions, right? How they consume information. And to your point, right, the type of sales cycle that you're really being a part of, right? To your point on those, those white glove enterprise deals, you know, there, those take 6 months to a year plus. There's multiple stakeholders. You'll have to go through many hoops, right? And it requires a lot of, of expertise from the sales team, but from a marketing standpoint, right, that it requires a ton of credibility to be able to facilitate, right? And so, you know, unless you're a really established product-led motion, right? It's it's a different set of priorities than say product-led, where you're trying to get high volume leads at a cheap rate, right? And getting as much reach basically as possible, and almost going more for virality than you are for you know really targeted hyper custom campaigns in a go-to-market motion. So it's it's it's really important to match that go-to-market strategy to the type of product that you're selling to the market, right? And to the the type of onboarding that you have, right? And the type of the product that your customers will experience.

Yeah. Well, and to their expectations because they might have an expectation of, I don't want a salesperson to get involved in my— I'm gonna go, you know, try out this trial myself and make a decision. Whereas if you're overlaying, you know, a salesperson that's, you know, trying to get in their business, that can be a mismatch and a waste of your resources. Because that's not actually the way that they want it. So you hit on something really interesting there that I want to click in on, which is the idea of sort of like demand generation, demand creation, demand capture. Talk to us about, you know, those different components and how those fit into rounding these different bases.

Yeah, it's a fun topic and I think it's Is it's often underappreciated. So, so I'm glad that you bring it up. Um, it's, you know, everyone thinks again to overly simplify marketing, right? It's, it's marketing something where you, you build the right strategy and you have the right product and you, all you need to do is turn on demand generation and, you know, and leads will start coming in the door. As I said in the beginning, right, it's often not the case. And it does go back to that go-to-market motion, right, that we talked about. If you're in a, for instance, if you're in a complex enterprise motion and you decide to turn on Google Ads and expect that to fill your pipeline, it won't, right? Because that's not the way that decisions are made usually, usually in those types of sales cycles, right? And so what we've kind of come up with, and we didn't invent the concept, right? But we like to use it is The difference between demand creation and demand capture, right? So when people think about marketing, they typically think about one on either end of the extreme, right? So demand capture is basically how can we show up in the right places and capture demand that actually exists? So basically people that are actively searching for, for instance, people who are actively searching for you or for your service on Google, you put a Google ad out. They click on the ad, that's demand capture. The nice thing about that is that it, you get, uh, you basically have high intent leads coming in the door. They know what they want. They're searching for what they want. You show up and deliver what they want. They're going to click on it. They'll convert and they ideally convert into a closed won customer relatively fast. Right? So that's great. The problem with that is that typically what we found is That is usually only like 5 to max 20% of the market, right? And so if you're, if you're, even if you can get that system to work well, which is a great accomplishment, obviously, you're, you'll be, you'll hit a point in time where it just stops working for some reason, right? You hit this invisible ceiling and you can't get past it, and it, you spend more and more money and, you know, it just doesn't seem to work. And so what you need to do, we've found, is go after demand creation as well, which is kind of more, you can think about it more as like brand marketing, but it's a little bit different than that. It's not so much just putting your brand out there and getting brand awareness, which is important, but it's more actively targeting your ideal customer profile and putting yourself in front of them, even if they don't know Who you are, right? Or even that they have a problem, right? You can, you can kind of, um, uh, relate it to, uh, um, a tree cutting company that goes door to door and knocks on your door and says, hey, you know, you, I don't know that you've seen this, but your tree is aging outside and, you know, if a windstorm comes in, it's gonna take down your roof, right? Um, and so that in that instance, right, the person probably doesn't, isn't even problem aware, right? But your job is to. Put yourself in front of them, explain the problem that they're, they are experiencing, whether or not they know it, and present a really solid solution. And you, it's almost like you shouldn't expect to get a conversion out of that almost, right? But you're playing the long game. You wanna put yourself out in front of them. And basically I like to say like reach above the inbound funnel and start to pull them in. Um, and what we found is that by doing both, right? Um, uh, It really creates a rising tide that lifts all ships, right? It, it, the, the message testing and the learnings that you'll get from the outreach efforts, right? And the, and the talking with customers that, that aren't problem aware yet influence the inbound campaigns that you run and the content that you build to support the inbound campaigns can also be used to support the, the generation campaigns. So it's, it's more of a holistic approach than what a lot of agencies will use. But we like to think that we're a little bit more of a holistic solution. And we've seen that it really works really well in the long term to be able to give our clients, you know, scalable and ROI-positive growth.

Yeah, there's a couple of key points there that you sort of touched on that I want to kind of elaborate. And the first is sort of the idea of what's the market maturity. And so oftentimes, you know, folks don't think about where is my marketplace in terms of maturity? Like, is— am I speaking to sort of innovators that are looking for the new thing that they don't know about? Or am I going for more of a majority of everyone's aware that this problem exists and they gotta solve it eventually? And so I'm trying to sort of speak to them. Just understanding where you're playing within that helps you understand what are the strategies and tactics that are gonna work.

Yeah.

That's crossing the chasm.

Framework.

And then, yeah, go ahead.

Oh, and just to add to that, right, like that also, it's a great point. And we look at that really heavily when we're working with clients. It also influences the type of messaging that you want to use and the type of positioning, right? Because the innovators, right, you need to give them something shiny and new and almost something that they can get in and play around with, right, and help you to build. But somebody, you know, a laggard, it's a completely different approach. You need to come in as the credible source that is polished, that looks 10 times bigger than you are and has all the All the credibility and the case studies and right, everything, all the social proof that you could ever think about as targeted as closely as possible to that market. So it's a different approach just and it's a very interesting thing to parse out for different companies.

Well, in those different stages of, you know, the maturity curve, you know, from the Crossing the Chasm framework, you compete on different basis of competition, like the early ones, you compete on your idea. And a lot of companies want to keep competing on their idea even as the market matures. But the next stage is actually competing on the fully built out product and the experience of using it. You can't keep selling your idea, you have to sell your product. And then the next stage is really competing on the logos of people who have already trusted you, right?

Yep.

If you're out there slinging your idea, they're like, yeah, lots of people got ideas. I need to see the logos and the case studies. And it's so interesting. And the other thing that's often overlooked is not only where's the market maturity curve, but also like where are you in that? Are you a, you know, sort of market leader or do you aspire to be or are you a challenger? Because if you're a challenger, you may have benefited from the market leader driving, you know, sort of category demand and you're like, I don't need to do demand creation.

Right.

I've got lots of people calling me. Well, It's because the market leader brought them into the category.

Very true.

So if you want to overtake them and become a market leader, you got to start doing those market shaping activities. And that's, that gets to another thing that you talked about, which is the importance of the messaging. And so often we see people that will sort of like think that they're doing demand creation by, you know, kind of traditional branding stuff where they talk about the benefits of the category. They don't have a unique point of view. So they're not really creating demand. They're creating awareness of a problem and a way or a way to solve the problem. Whereas if they talk about there's a problem that exists and we have a unique and differentiated point of view on how to solve that and it delivers these unique benefits and results, then you're not only creating awareness but also really shaping the marketplace so that you can take that leadership role. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's always really a fun exercise to take companies through and to explore with them where they fit in that continuum, right? And if honestly, like if they want to be, obviously everyone wants to be the market leader and wants to, you know, I feel like it's often idealized to become the market maker where you build the market because of course, if you can do it successfully, then, you know, there's tons of dollars to be had and growth to be had.

But it's expensive.

But it's very expensive and it takes a long time to do. And people often underestimate that. To your point, right? Like on the more competitive side, if the market is big enough, then the demand capture can get you a long way, right? Like the niche down and carve out strategy can go a really long way and it can be really quick, which is nice because if you can, If you can position yourself effectively for the right market with the right value propositions, right, with the right product experience, then it can go a long way. One of the things that has been interesting with the— we don't need to go fully into AI, but with the emergence of AI is that, you know, the— it almost has in my mind increased the level of noise in Marketing. So there's so much, it's so easy to create content now. Everyone can do it. There's so many tools. Um, and so there's so much content out there. Uh, that doesn't mean that it's good content. Um, and so it's, it's, it's becoming almost more and more important for, I think, for, for marketing to influence, of course, positioning and messaging and creating real value in the content that you produce. But also going almost back to basics and, and, um, like product marketing strategy of making sure that, you know, your audience better than anybody else does, right? And your subsegment of the audience and making sure that, that those needs and those pain points and those solutions get built into the product roadmap so that you're not only competing on positioning and messaging, you're actually competing on the product experience and the customer experience and And how it influences jobs to be done and everything like that. That's where the true differentiation comes from. And that is where, again, to bring it back to me, because I like to do that, that is where something like a typical agency can fall short just because they don't have the agency to be able to do that, right? They don't have the control. So, so it's so important for the true marketing departments to to take that responsibility really seriously. And it can be tough because obviously you usually get measured on demand generation and pipeline impact. But the ironic thing, right, is that the focus on the product-led or the product roadmap is really will pay huge dividends for you in the long run if you can devote the time to it.

Well, and it's so interesting and I think that you know, sort of SaaS companies captured this opportunity in some ways differently than traditional kind of product companies because the development roadmap for other traditional product companies is, it's a little more, you know, kind of long-term stable, not as agile, brittle in that if you make any changes to it, everything downstream breaks. Whereas SaaS products by their nature, can be more iterative, can be more agile. And, you know, sort of marketing, sales, customer success, they are the mouthpiece of the marketplace, which is the most important strategic asset you have as a company for influencing your product roadmap. And SaaS companies that effectively harness that insight that comes from marketing, sales, and customer success and then incorporate that into iterations and prioritization on product development are the ones that really dominate their category because they ensure that the actual product and the functional experience of using the product aligns with, you know, what the market not only wants today, but where it wants to go in the future.

Yeah, I think that the companies that can be most successful, especially in B2B SaaS, are the ones that can get their marketing, their sales, their customer success, and their product teams to all sing from the same sheet, you know, and all move in unison in the same direction, right? Because that, it delivers, it does a lot of things, but it delivers such a consistent user experience, right? And that's what you need, right? You need marketing to make a promise and marketing and sales to make a promise that product and customer success can deliver on, right? And if you can do that really well and the promise is right and it fits the market the right way and everything like that, then you get retention and then you get upsell and then you start to see the scalable revenue that you want from it. Exactly. From a—

And the shape of that curve changes from linear to exponential.

Exactly. But it's so easy for, maybe it's that marketing and sales have different incentives. Maybe it's that, you know, marketing and sales like to point fingers at each other, which often happens, right? But it's so easy for them to, those teams to get siloed and focused on their own individual goals instead of taking a a step back and looking at the company goal and how can we as a team support that. It's a hard problem to solve, but the companies that can solve it and really line people up the right way, that's where the real opportunity is, I think.

Yeah, it's also a little bit of a leftover from the kind of growth at all costs mindset when there was free money that just came from new subscribers, not retention. They ignored that churn. But when you're just thinking of new subscribers, the answer to everything was more leads. And but I see that companies a lot of times, you know, they in the pursuit of volume and quantity ignored quality. And so in fact, they wound up closing leads that were actually really toxic and became sort of toxic customers because they didn't believe in your product vision. They didn't want you to take the product the way the rest of the market wanted.

Yeah.

So they forced you to customize for them. So now you're putting resources to serve them instead of to serve where the market's going. And then that winds up, you know, sort of pulling you further behind your competition so you can't keep pace. It's that ability to really sort of understand that there's a difference between a good lead and a bad lead instead of them being of equal quality.

Yeah, it's also 100%. I fully agree. It's also something where I feel like everyone thinks about marketing in the new customers piece of the business, right? Like marketing is for generating and acquiring new customers, which it is 100%, right? Well, not 100%, but it is. But the thing that often gets missed, right? Like I'll often have conversations with prospects and with clients about, they come in needing that new revenue push, right? But they usually aren't even thinking about marketing's impact on retention or upsell, right?

Yeah.

Which if you're building a SaaS company, that's where you wanna focus. That's where you wanna start, right? You want to, if you can lock in retention and upsell, marketing becomes very easy, right? Because you have a product that works, that fits, that solves the problem that people wanna stay with, right? It's so easy to, to add gas to that. But if you're, It can be tricky, right, to focus too hard on new revenue when you don't have a product that, that you don't have the right market for the product, or you don't have, right, the right promise that you're, you're building or giving to the market. Um, and so it can just be, it's, it's, I just think that it's often overlooked, uh, from a marketing standpoint. And of course marketing needs to build the top of the funnel and, and deliver leads for sales, but it's also so critical for marketing to look at, you know, the customer, keeping the customers that we already have and how can we nurture the people who are engaged and how can we reengage the people that aren't and how can we run upsell campaigns and referral campaigns? Anyways, there's a ton of low-hanging fruit there that often gets overlooked from marketing teams.

That's right. Well, and what's funny too is, you know, the marketing folks, have a toolkit that oftentimes the CS folks don't have. Things like, you know, it's very common in marketing to build a lead scoring model of, you know, how likely is this lead to convert? It's not very common for customer success to build a churn model that says how likely is this customer to churn? But that's the same application of a really good tool that if you then put that against all of your customers, you could start to score Wow, these are at-risk customers. You know, there's a statistic, you know, 10% of your customers are planning to leave at any given time.

Yeah.

So if I told you I could give you 10% growth for doing nothing other than, you know, just focusing your efforts a little bit differently, you'd jump on it. And so like building those scoring models of, well, who's likely to leave? And then again, marketing is really good at crafting messaging around, you know, sort of the value and quality and the content And so you can do those and they talk about this in auto, you know, a lot of the car ads that you see on TV aren't to convince you to buy a new car. It's to convince you that you made a right choice on the last car you bought.

You can feel good about it.

Yeah, that's right. And so like if you think about that mindset, especially, you know, cars you keep for, you know, 5 years, a SaaS product you hope they're gonna keep for at least 5 years, right? And so if you're doing that post-purchase marketing to reinforce that decision that they made, that's where you really start to get that growth and that upside curve.

Yep, 100%.

So obviously we're both really passionate about these topics and we could talk about them all day, but I got to be mindful of your time. But before we let you go, so what's something that's on the horizon that you're excited about?

I do think that, that, you know, the Not to make everything about AI, but the application of AI in marketing and just what it unlocks for small marketing teams is huge in my perspective. And, you know, Kalungi does a lot of work with, you know, we'll work with companies, you know, $20+ million, but we do work with a lot of small marketer teams and just starting out, right? And, and It, it just unlocks using a tool like AI appropriately, just unlocks so much potential for those small startups to gain traction fast. And to your point, like enter a, a mature market and go up against heavy hitters with a fraction of the budget. But if the strategy's right, right, if you, if you match the strategy with the maturity and the market and the go-to-market motion and all the things that we've already talked about. Yeah. And have someone, you know, a team that's really good with the power of, of AI, it just, it levels the playing field in a way that has never really been available before. Um, and so it just makes me super excited for a lot of the clients that we work with on the smaller end. Of course, it benefits bigger clients as well, but, um, but that's just a really cool, I think, opportunity. Um, and then also, you know, I'm super optimistic Because I think that, as I said, like with that added noise, it, it just makes, it makes the people that add the most value to the conversation and that have that, the, the marketing strategy connect directly with product sales, CS, be the most successful because they're the people who are actively solving the problems the best for the customer. So I think it's in the end, right, it will add noise. to the market, but I think it's better for the consumer, right? It gives them more information. It's better for the companies that can really prioritize strategy and align their teams behind the right market, which is what we help to do. So I'm really optimistic about that.

Well, and it's also true that like AI, whether it's generative or agentic or whatever, automation with oftentimes gets conflated with AI. Those things work best when they're implemented on top of an existing process, which is so great about Kalungi's approach because it's very process-driven and it's got the, you know, very data-driven frameworks. A lot of agencies aren't able to sort of get the real value out of AI because they're not really, they don't really have a process. They're kind of winging it, making it up or whatever it might be.

Right.

Whereas when there's something that's built on processes, systems, and data, the AI can really be fuel for that fire. So for folks that have been listening and they're like, I really like the stuff that Brian's saying and I really like this more strategic and data-driven approach to analyzing what I should be doing in the marketplace. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you and learn more about Columbi?

Yeah. Hopefully there's one or two that, that found what I said interesting. Um, you know, we, there's a few different things that you can look at and not to overwhelm you with options, but you know, the, the theory that I've, that I do a lot of talking about and that we, Kalungi bases its work off of is called T2D3. And you can look, uh, you can look it up at t2d3.pro. Um, Kalungi's website is kalungi.com, K-A-L-U-N-G-I.com. And then I have my own podcast where I'll talk with Stein Hendricks, the founder of our company, and we just like to nerd out about anything marketing, honestly, if it goes from strategy to tactics to politics to marketing and business politics, navigating that and just, you know, about any of those things. So feel free to look that up. That's B2B SaaS Marketing Snacks.

Yeah. And I can sort of personally test all those. I read T2D3 and loved it, and so much so that I went through and did the certification. So I can highly—

Glad to have you as a member.

Yeah, highly encourage everyone to go through that. If you really like these sort of data-driven strategic approaches and you want to dive deep in it, it's a great, great resource for you. So, Brian, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

No, thank you so much. It was a great conversation. I appreciate you having me on.

All right, talk to you soon. Thank you for joining this episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast. We hope you've gained insights to grow your business. If you enjoyed this discussion, please rate, comment, like on your favorite platform, and share to others who will find it useful. Do you know a CEO, founder, or leader at an early-stage B2B services, tech, or SaaS company Who would like to be a guest and share their story? Send us a note. Let's schedule a conversation.