How AI is Shaping the Future of EdTech Marketing with Gil Rogers

Welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast, where we talk with entrepreneurs, founders, and leaders at B2B services, tech, and SaaS companies to learn the systems and processes they've used to create success for their business. We'll also learn from marketing and sales experts to provide insights to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and the podcast is brought to you by Modern Revenue Strategies and their 10X ROI B2B Growth Guarantee. Schedule a free diagnostic call to learn the fastest path to double your B2B revenues in just 90 days. Hello and welcome to another episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Osborne. And today I'm very excited to welcome my guest, Gil Rogers. Now I'm gonna read Gil's bio to make sure I get this right. He's a strategic innovator in the field of education technology or edtech marketing. As a fractional CMO, Gil specializes in assisting edtech companies to sharpen their messaging, articulate their unique value, and drive significant revenue growth. His expertise stems from a robust background in higher education enrollment management and marketing, where he has led numerous institutions through record-breaking recruitment cycles. With a career beginning in transformative roles such as leading the marketing and thought leadership at Zinch.com, he was subsequently acquired by Chegg in 2011. Gil's consistently been at the forefront of the edtech industry's evolution. His work continued to break new ground at the National Research Center for College and University Admissions, where he spearheaded initiatives in digital marketing and data-informed enrollment strategies under the NCURA platform. Gil founded GR7 Marketing to leverage his deep industry knowledge to aid fellow entrepreneurs and business leaders in effectively communicating their services to educational institutions. He frequently shares his thought leadership at national conferences, discusses crucial aspects of marketing strategy for edtech startups, leadership, customer understanding, and the try-before-you-buy approach to executive hiring. So Gil, welcome to the show.

Mark, thank you for the amazing introduction. I appreciate it.

Well, I'm excited to have you. And so you've obviously done a lot within this specific niche, and we're going to talk about sort of the differences between edtech and other technology and those important differences. But tell us a little bit about that story of kind of where you started and how you got to where you are today.

Yeah, well, I, again, I appreciate the time and appreciate being on. My superhero origin story is I didn't want to get a real job when I graduated from college, right? And so I started as a camp counselor at a scout camp in northern Minnesota, building trails between the Boundary Waters for 3 summers, right? And I graduated from college.

So I appreciate the work you did at scout camp.

There we go. And made it easy to explore, right? And so the reason why I didn't want to get a real job is that then I wouldn't be able to go that last summer and work up at the camp. And so it was super convenient. I got a job as an admissions counselor at the school that I went to, the University of Hartford in Connecticut. And they had a 2-year contract position where I only had to work during the fall and the spring. And then I took grad courses getting my MBA as part of that grad assistantship, right? And so once I was done there though, that's when I then didn't want to continue to want to get a real job. So I stayed in admissions, which is a real job, but I didn't want to stop doing that work anymore. So I got a job down the road at another college. And then from there, that's when I started to get a little bit more mature in my roles and I started getting really into technology and looking ahead and stuff. And this was before, you know, companies had Facebook pages and all these. So that's how old I am. That's why my hair is gray. And so I was the guy at the University of New Haven who was in charge of the social media stuff, the digital advertising stuff, the lead gen partners, marketing liaison, all those sorts of things. And so through the relationships there, is when I made that transition to being a consultant on the tech side, leading marketing at a couple of different tech startups. And, you know, small size, large size was acquired by Chegg before it went public and was there when they went public. A little bit tough for them at the moment right now, but was there during the heyday, right? And so about 2 years ago now at this point, I had recently left a startup that was doing AI before ChatGPT was cool and realized that, you know, as a head of marketing, VP of marketing, whatever level you want to call it, a lot of times these smaller and medium-sized edtech companies don't have the resources to bring on a senior-level person while also giving them the resources to do the plan that you've tasked them with doing, right? And so that's where the idea of having a fractional CMO type of a model really has worked well for me and worked well for the companies that I've supported over the past couple of years because I'm able to do the work that I really enjoy doing, which is ideating on content planning and strategy and, you know, some contract work here and there as well, but then work with either the internal resources at the company or my network of freelancers to develop and execute those plans, right? And so you mentioned during the opening the kind of the try before you buy element of executive leadership. What this does is alleviates a lot of the risk to my partners because they don't have to go through the whole 6-9 month hiring process of finding a really good person and then realizing they're not a good fit and having to let them go 9 months later, or not being able to support them and letting them go 9 months later and setting them back, losing runway, losing time, which is just super important. So that's my superhero origin story is I never wanted to get a real job. So now I just have 5 jobs, but they're for, they're small jobs for 5 different companies, right? So here I am.

Well, that, that try before you buy, I think is, it's so crucial. And we see so many companies that, you know, they, they have the thing of, you know, they hit this revenue ceiling and their first thing is, well, let's just hire a salesperson and be exactly like the CEO and we'll double our revenues. That never really works. Or then they you know, hire an agency that convinces them to spend some money, but they say the wrong things or to the wrong people. And so that doesn't really pay off. And then what they realize is they actually need some strategy. But to make the investment in a full-time marketing leader not only is costly, but oftentimes those people want equity, and oftentimes they make a big cultural impact, which isn't necessarily what you're looking for. You're really looking for those systems. So I love the way that you set that up where you can set up those systems for them to run. Without them having to, you know, take that big leap of or even just suffer through the long cycle of finding someone.

Yeah. Yeah.

Great solution.

And I think just to put a bow on that, I think part of the challenge for a lot of the smaller companies is they decide to go down the get a marketing guy route when it's the 11th hour and they've had a bad couple of quarters. So then they don't have the resources to actually execute on any of those things. And so then that person kind of gets burned because they came in and aren't able to do the work that they know can be effective because they don't have the resources to actually do it, right? And so this, you know, taking a step back for those executive leaders, you're exactly right. Like, what's the solution for every tech company's problems? It's hire BDRs and hire another salesperson and get the word out, post on LinkedIn, right? Like, those are— there's more to it than that. And there is a combination of— needing to get those quick wins. And I was on a podcast last year, it was a CMO podcast, was about the, you know, first 90 days and like getting to that quick win in the first 90 days. You need those quick wins and you gotta define what that quick win is, which is a whole separate conversation. But on top of that, you also need to build for sustainable growth and that takes time, which when you bring on that highly compensated equity draining person in that role makes that runway shorter and shorter. So the fractional route allows for companies to kind of expand on that and make and give themselves more time to let the marketing strategies actually play out.

Yeah. So love all that. Now, given your really depth of expertise within edtech, and you and I have chatted before about how, you know, edtech is really different than other technology kind of marketing and the way that you kind of bring those products to market. Let's Let's talk about that a little bit. Tell us about how edtech is different than, you know, sort of the larger technology space and how, you know, this particular marketplace, you know, is different, how there are different, you know, sort of pitfalls of taking a standard technology marketing approach and applying it to companies in that space, or what are some of the challenges that you see companies struggle with there?

Yeah, I think that one of the biggest things, and clearly there are always exceptions to rules, but the The biggest challenge for a lot of folks is like, is really underestimating the value of industry insights and industry expertise, right? And there's, you know, when you bring on, and there are great companies out there like Ankora, you mentioned in the opening, one of them, you know, they most, much of their sales team and much of their marketing team are people who come from higher education background because that's the industry that they're working in, right? And so when a company hires a VP of marketing out of pharmaceutical goals or hires a VP of marketing out of, you know, some other industry, they don't necessarily— the ramp-up time for that person, even if they're the brightest person in the world, it has a longer tail than others, right? And so I think making the investments in people with industry insights and expertise, whether it's K-12 or higher ed, doesn't really matter. It's mostly making sure that you're investing in someone that has that level of expertise because otherwise it's going to take them the 6 months, 9 months, a year to learn what someone's kind of come in with years of experience already having at that leadership level. I think the other is underestimating the power of relationships in this space, right? Everybody wants to just be the SaaS offering where everything's plug and play, click to download or click to install and work with. But the space that I've worked in most of my career specifically has been higher education enrollment management. And those people, admissions officers, admissions directors, marketing people are so busy with their day-to-day that they don't want to learn 5 different systems or 5 different platforms. They want everything to just work or they want a person to do it for them, right? And the person to do that for them, that's more of that managed services approach, right? It's not software as a service, it's software with a service. Clearly the downside of that from a company perspective, if you're trying to position yourself for an acquisition or a merger, is you want it to be true SaaS because of the valuation and the multipliers and all that stuff. But from the, for the companies that I work with, when you're, when we're talking about small and medium-sized companies, your goal is to be a standalone SaaS offering. But in the early going, you truly are a managed services type of a company and you've got to treat it that way.

It's funny. So there, you know, software absolutely ate the world and there's an explosion of sort of SaaS offerings that, you know, and then people built, you know, just sort of stacks and stacks and stacks of all these different things. And I was having this conversation with someone just last night about the difference between SaaS, software as a service, and SWaaS, software with a service. And I said, you know, really in today's environment, especially in enterprise where you're giving something that's got a lot of value to the organization, there are always services sitting on top of that software. And, but like, and likewise, you know, there is always software underpinning most services today. And he was saying that he finds the distinction is companies that consider themselves to be SaaS, they really would rather just be a piece of software and do as minimal as possible on the service side. Whereas a lot of SaaS companies and companies that identify as that, They started as a service and then realized the importance of productizing or supporting that service with technology. And they tend to be more strategic where software wants to be a piece of the puzzle. The SaaS companies want to be more of a strategic aligned partner. I'm curious if you've seen that in the edtech space and the companies that you work with.

Yeah, actually, I work, I work with a company currently. They're called HAI Analytics. They were AI before AI was cool as well. The H specifically stands for human, right? And so the combination of human and artificial intelligence and what they focus on and support institutions with is predictive modeling for enrollment, financial aid leveraging, and that level and that type of strategy. And what they've found is that they have a number of partners that want a software platform, a dashboard to look at and monitor and use for decision-making, but they still need some level of guidance and support, right? And it's not just how to load their file and how to load the data. That's an account manager type of a thing that, you know, that's what you want to get away from, from the technology perspective is enable the end user to do that work. But the human can't be replaced by technology for the strategic level of insights. And again, it's one of those, it's 2 women who come from the higher ed space started this company and they're the one, they're working with their clients And, and having that, that level of strategic relationship and strategic advisement. That's a, that's a what I feel to your point is a true SaaS type model where you're never gonna get the full value out of a partnership with a company like HAI without some human element. And you don't want it that way, right? You want it to have that human element because that's what's gonna, that's the difference between just letting ChatGPT run your life. And, and make bad decisions just because that's what the robot said versus that layer of critical thinking that can take the step back and have the breadth of experience of, you know, 35, 40 schools that they can bring to inform your decision-making. And so I think specifically in, specifically in edtech, when I, when I look at the, the, the category of, you know, enrollment management, higher education, level institutions, SaaS is the way to go for, and that's the way it's been for a lot of time, a lot of the time is there are very few just like standalone software services that are not just like in, you know, campus-wide, you know, Google and Slack and operational type things. But software that's built specifically for higher ed typically comes with some level of a managed service or a strategic support to help you get the most out of it. Because otherwise, like I said at the beginning, You know, they're, they're too busy to learn to do it all themselves. And if there wasn't that strategic person, then they wouldn't use it at all and then they wouldn't get any value and then they wouldn't renew, right? So there's a, there's truly, you know, on top of all of this, there's a, there's a sales and revenue driving, renewal driving perspective of this where you leave a college to their own devices, they won't use your platform and then they will spin their tires and then blame you for the fact that they didn't get any value because there wasn't someone driving their results for them.

That's right. That's right. Well, and you call out such an interesting thing. So in sort of a go-to-market framework of, you know, thinking about there's different kind of go-to-market motions that you can do, you can have kind of product-led or founder-led or marketing and sales-led. And, you know, people have heard those terms, but matching the actual solution that you're providing to your go-to-market motion is so crucial, you know, for making sure that your cost to acquire a customer aligns to, you know, the actual value that you get from it. And I bet that's one of the big challenges that you've seen of people coming from more of a SaaS or just technology marketing perspective aren't thinking about the level of service and connection between marketing and sales, that relationship that's so important for them to actually get the value out. And so we're kind of using some go-to-market motions that don't fit because they're more aligned to just software.

Yeah. And I think I was at a company once where I was reporting into a VP of marketing that had no higher ed experience, very brilliant in digital marketing and understanding metrics and funnels and all that sort of fun stuff, right? And what they were looking for at one point was I want to see a report that shows me the number of website visitors all the way down to deals won, tied all together with a nice neat little bow, right? And when you're dealing with a geographically distributed sales team that is at conferences and you're hosting events and you've got ad campaigns, you've got all these things, clearly we want to measure these different metrics, but you don't, you can't measure them in silos, right? Just because There's always gonna be some disconnects. And I think we're learning that more and more, especially with, you know, privacy with Google and Apple and, and like read rates and open rates and click-through rates and, you know, so dark web and all these sorts of things, right? Is there's— it's not about one specific metric. It's about the having the wisdom to understand what areas require a deeper investment, right? And especially with, again, with growing help, trying to grow sales. You need to spend into declines, right? So if you're struggling, you need to promote more and you need to do more and you need to sometimes, I'm working with a company right now that, you know, we're in the midst of getting their website redone and their blog is living on a different domain because of technology background reasons, a bunch of just crap that gets in the way of us at a startup, right? Like you're so busy putting the armor on the ship to go into battle that you're a little disorganized and that's okay. I love dealing with the mess, right? And so, but sometimes you just have to go and do and trust that the actions that you're doing are the right thing because you've got experience and you've got expertise and you know that even though the Google Analytics on the blog is not gonna say it in 6 months, it's the right thing to do at that time, right? And for some marketing leaders in the space, that's blasphemous, right? It's like we need all these things set up correctly. It's like, well, then you're gonna spin your tires for 3, 4 months and then have nothing to show because you spent your whole time in the weeds, right? And so—

Never leaves port if you spend all time getting it ready for battle. You gotta get into the battle.

Yeah, yep, exactly. And then you can't win if you don't play, right? And so we've made that strategic decision where it's like, no, we know the content that we're creating is going to be solid. It's tied in, it's rooted in understanding our ICP, it's rooted in understanding what their pain points are. We've got a solid cadence. It's a formula that I've used a million times for a combination of multichannel. So the analytics will matter when they matter, but they don't matter now, right? And what matters now is taking action. Done is better than perfect, right? And like getting it out there and being responsive and having the market, having something for the market to react to. The minute we get an inbound lead on the website, it's not gonna matter where it came from. It came on the website. Yeah, fucking wins, right? And so we, we, we need to get to those wins as quickly as we can. And sometimes that means not having perfect data. Yeah.

Well, and that, that might, it's so funny because there's an entire generation of marketers and I have some gray hair too. It's a little hidden behind some gel. But there's a whole generation of marketers that their entire career has really been just sort of like chasing the next growth hack. Like they were the first ones to optimize their website for search engines. And then when people started using search engines to find, you know, the thing that they were selling, they had a windfall and they looked like a genius. And then they were the first ones to, you know, buy paid ads and to optimize those paid ads. They looked like a genius. Then they were the first ones to buy, you know, ads on whatever new social platform it was, whether it was Meta or, you know, LinkedIn, whatever it might be. But they never had to go back and really think through that strategy of who is our customer? What's the messaging that's gonna really resonate with them? How do we, generate demand while creating awareness so that these things really pay off. And so they have this kind of very linear mindset of the funnel just widows down, willows down, and we've got the same sort of conversion metrics every time you, you plug in more leads and you get more sales. And the other thing that that misses out is, you know, especially in a, you know, a software-based where there's recurring revenue, the whole, you know, right side of that funnel, that bowtie funnel of the renewals and expansion and, you know, sort of that opportunity for retention, because that really changes the shape of the curve from just sort of linear growth to really exponential growth when you're doing that right.

Yeah. And I think some of it, not to go on a left turn, but I'll go on a left turn, is it is impacted by the whims of the board and the whims of leadership. Right? And like, I fell victim to this at a company where the— when I was brought in, the primary focus was we want to amplify our message, get the word out, take an authoritative voice in the market, thought leadership, right? Everybody wants thought leadership. And it's— and so we want to develop this brand and build a community and define the category. And we're doing all those things. And by every single metric you could Measure everything by. We were accomplishing that, and then what happened? The plug got pulled because oh well, we're not we we we're not aligned on on what the needs for the company are because the needs are renewal growth. We want to show renewal growth, and we show we we got to protect our our core. And so when we it's not really about the growth and outbound outbound and developing more at the moment because this was when you know Silicon Valley Bank was going sideways, and everybody was like protect protect protect. And so, which is interesting because like, I feel like bringing on more logos protects you when you're— but they, the board specifically wanted to see account-based growth, right? And so that wasn't where the work was. That wasn't where the emphasis or the resourcing was, right? Because full-time guy only have so much, so many resources for things. And that's, you know, and, you know, positive is that's why GR7 Marketing exists, right? So it's, you get to that point where you're just, you You, you have to be prepared for the winds to change with your plan and be flexible. And when you have the resources to do it, great. And so, but sometimes you don't.

Yeah. Well, and as you say though, there's a lot of those kind of market shaping activities take time to bear fruit. And so that's the other thing that I see so often is people are like, we want to be the category leader. Okay, well, that takes some time to do, especially if you're, if there's already an entrenched one. And the military strategy is you need 3 times the force of the, you know, sort of entrenched defensive force if you're gonna overtake the position. So whatever they're spending in media, you need to spend 3 times as much, whatever they're generating in content, you need 3 times as much, whatever they've got in sales, you need 3 times as much. So that then sort of paints the picture of Maybe we don't really want to be the category leader. Maybe we want to carve a niche over here, create a new category.

Or the fastest way to be a category leader is to create a category and define that category, right? And then you don't have to remove a— you're automatically the defender, right? Because especially to bring back the differentiator for edtech companies over others, the market leader who's been around for 35 years, Chances are they have a sales team of people who have been in the space and industry for 15, 20, 30 years. They are there and they've got venture-backed and they've got a bajillion dollars and they can weather that storm. You're not gonna be able to afford spending 3 times and 3 times is not enough. It's probably more like 10 because you can't overcome the network effect and the credibility of it. There's an underappreciation in specifically the higher ed edtech community of being a likable brand, right? Just people will, people will, especially in the space that I've worked in for 15 years, they will work with someone that they like with an okay platform more than the shiny, expensive, better, or even cheaper platform because they like leads to trust. trust leads to the buy, right? And so that's a, those are a big element. Those are big elements of the overall process. They'll give you way more grace if the product crashes when they like you versus if you're just the person that they bought from because they had a need. And I've been at both types of companies, right? And so it's an important element to that is again bringing it back to the relationship and the credibility side of things. But to your point, like being the market leader and owning the category and owning the space, is not an overnight thing either. It takes time to develop the messaging around that, to get in front of people. There's no easy button when it comes to getting the message out to right people unless you're super lucky and are able to be like featured in an industry publication the week of a big need coming up in the space. And that happened once, one company I was at, it'll be a quick story and then I'll shut up, is the is I was at a company that was running virtual event platforms and video content platforms before COVID hit, right? And this is focused specifically on higher ed institutions and we were okay, we were doing a good job on the content side of things. I was speaking at some conferences, we were doing some research, we're doing all the right things, but it was all the product was before, was ahead of its time, right? And so, but then COVID starts becoming this thing like this virus spreading around the world. We don't know what's going on, all this sort of stuff. I was sitting on my couch at like 8 o'clock at night and I just had an idea and I shot a note to a reporter that I knew for a large industry publication and I said, hey, I've got a list of, you know, a handful of institutions who are looking to move their spring admitted student programs virtual because they are afraid of what's going to be going on with this whole COVID thing. Let me know if you want to talk. The next morning I had a 30-minute conversation with this reporter And we were featured in the largest industry publication about institutions going to moving all of their stuff online. And then the company doubled in a year, mostly because of that type of an outreach, right? And like no amount like that, you can't catch lightning in a bottle that many times. So that was definitely a lightning in the bottle moment. And I think that just speaks to the end. It was a reporter that I've talked to and worked with for years. They don't respond to every single email. But they, but they do, they, and they're not gonna respond to every single person. But it was the right place, right time during a terrible time for, for the world. But for the company being in that space specifically, it was the perfect fit for the, for the company to be exposed in that way, right? And so you just, you, that's, and that wasn't part of the marketing plan, right? There was no formulaic, like, we're gonna do this and that, the other thing. That was just being responsive and knowing your audience. Yeah.

Well, and that speaks to something that you and I have chatted about a little bit before, which is, you know, with generative AI, there's going to be such a sort of a glut of content to come out. And like, I think in the past, companies could sort of differentiate. Sorry, can you hear that drilling? Is that super loud? Okay, good. So there in the past, companies that sort of created a lot of content, even if it wasn't perfectly suited to, you know, the ideal customer and the specific needs and sort of, you know, pains relieved or gains created that they were looking for, if they created enough of it, they could sort of make a, you know, make a presence for themselves and stand out. But now, you know, kind of one person can generate enough content to really just flood the end. So that's gonna happen forever. You know, every competitor is gonna be flooding the airwaves. And I think that what that's gonna do is, and you and I talked about this, it's gonna put more of an emphasis on really understanding and saying something insightful instead of just saying something. In the past, saying something at a large volume could be valuable. Because it puts you out there enough that maybe you said one or two things that they could see themselves in it. Whereas now I think it's gonna be a lot harder to compete unless you really understand what they care about and then how to enunciate that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things to really consider, right, is that we're putting an emphasis on the stuff that was important before generative AI, right? There was a relationship, credibility and being an authoritative voice. Now it's just there's more noise, like you said, right? And breaking through that noise is gonna be a challenge. But with the right levers and the right message and the right cadence of those communications, it's a lot of rights to get right. But you can still do those things in meaningful ways and it all boils down to relationship. and trust and credibility, right? And I think you've got many of these companies, especially if you're building and creating a category, you're not in the clutter at that point aside from the clutter of every day, right? And you're still competing with every other thing that's in their LinkedIn feed. And that was always the past couple of years and this is pre-AI. I've confided with my wife a couple of times and I'll confide with you and your listeners, right?

Is that It's hard.

It's hard because you get tired of saying the same things for years and seeing incremental change, right? And people all, for whatever reason, especially in higher education, people tend to clamor for what was over embracing what is and what could be. And I feel like Thanos when he snapped away half of existence and it's like, as long as those exist that know what was there before, they'll always want what was, right? But it's like, There's— that's an Avengers reference for anybody listening that has no idea what I'm talking about. But the— it's just the challenge of like, how do we, you know, and again, I saw it at the virtual event platform company I was at. We grew during COVID and then what happened the minute people could go back to open houses in person and for campus tours and visiting high schools and college fairs and all these sorts of things, they clamored and they put all their resources back into that, even though even before COVID the outcomes of that type of effort was questionable, right? And that— but, but they, they like the feeling of being out there. They like the feeling of being active, not sitting at a computer talking to a webcam, right? Now that— now they have to do a little bit of both, but there's still an overemphasis on that side of things. But absence makes the heart grow fonder, right? And so you, you've got to— if you're going to be marketing an edtech solution, you've got to be willing to be patient and push through an entrenched approach that is gonna be outdated, outmoded, and not best for students. But at the end of the day, it's easier for people to, to kind of grasp what they know versus embrace what they don't. And so you've gotta build that level of trust and credibility so that people are willing to take that leap with you versus pushing back on you because you're saying everything that they're doing has been wrong for the past 15 years. That's not gonna work.

That's right. That's right. No one wants to meet that person. Well, obviously we're both super passionate about all these topics. We could talk all day, but I gotta be mindful of your time. But before I let you go, why don't you tell us something that's on the horizon for you or G7 that you're really excited about? Yeah.

So I am blessed that I've got a solid workload of clients that I'm supporting at the moment. Candidly, a couple of them are confidential partnerships, and by the time this episode drops, may or may not be, but who knows?

Sure.

I am loving that. I'll take it out of the workspace. My kid's youth hockey association is in the midst of their season and we're getting ready for playoffs and he's starting, you know, travel baseball and all those sorts of things. So I am excited about the non-work-related growing with him in those types of spaces. And I'll say that the flexibility of running my own business has allowed me to have a better balance than being stuck at a desk for a specific place, right? And so, you know, completely grateful. The fact of how blessed I am is not lost on me in that space. But that's what's on my horizon is a good work-life balance of supporting my kid, cheering them on. I'm out of the coach mode more. I'm in dad mode now.

That's great.

Kid pitch and like little kid hockey, I'm okay with. Anything above that, I start Hold them back, right? So I'm excited to be a be a supporter and not a coach.

That's awesome. That's awesome. So for our audience that's listening, that that's in this edtech space, that's looking for someone that's got the industry expertise for marketing, how can they get in touch with you, Gil?

Yeah, I mean, I am pretty active on LinkedIn. Find me there, Gil Rogers. I've also got a website. I will I will be upfront and say I am not a web designer. It's my website that I built on HubSpot that is just the what you need to know website. gr7marketing.com I have a web developer in my toolkit that I use for client work, but I'm not gonna waste her time on my website. But yeah, gr7marketing.com are the 2 best ways to do it. If you know how to do smoke signals, I'm in the Northeast, I'm up in Maine. So send them up.

Do you take pigeons or they ride?

Yeah, carrier pigeons, ravens if you wanna go Game of Thrones level. But typically website, LinkedIn, or gil@gr7marketing.com. Are the 3 best ways to reach me. The birds get lost sometimes.

Gotcha. Well, Gil, thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed our conversation.

I did too. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

All right. Talk to you more soon. Thank you for joining this episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast. We hope you've gained insights to grow your business. If you enjoyed this discussion, please rate, comment, Like on your favorite platform and share to others who will find it useful. Do you know a CEO, founder, or leader at an early-stage B2B services, tech, or SaaS company who would like to be a guest and share their story? Send us a note. Let's schedule a conversation.