Mark Osborne on Business with the Boys BWTB#65

What's up guys? David DeCelle here, your host of the Business with the Boys podcast. And in today's episode, we have none other than Mark Osborne. He's been recognized by Ad Age magazine as one of the world's top 25 marketing technology trailblazers back in 2017. And he's also a number one bestselling author on marketing and sales. He brings decades of experience creating full-funnel go-to-market strategies and revenue growth systems for companies. He has adapted these systems specifically for companies preparing for an exit, and his white paper called Maximize the Multiple shows the 13 marketing and sales levers that drive enterprise value and EBITDA, ensuring the maximum sale price at exit for owners. He also has an MBA from the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California. And when he's not delivering revenue growth, he enjoys sport fishing in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, or mixing up cocktails at the tiki bar in his basement in LA. But with that said, let's dive into the episode.

Who knew I would make it this far? They hated, they never believed me. Yeah, I would never drop the ball. I know I make it look easy. Yeah.

Well, Mark, before we started recording, we already noticed some opportunity for collaboration. That aside, I've been excited to have you on the show, as has Landon— excuse me. So welcome aboard. Looking forward to the conversation.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I've been looking forward to it as well.

Just to open the—

Quick shout out. Happy birthday by a day. We're a day late, but 35 for for Double D on here. He doesn't look a day over 30, so happy birthday, brother.

Appreciate it.

Big things coming. We got baby anytime. 35 now. Like things are looking up. I'm proud of you.

Thanks, Doug.

I appreciate you.

I appreciate it. Well, let's uh let's catch the listener's attention right off the bat. Mark, I'm curious when the last time you got laid was, and I say that because I see a lay hanging on your shelf behind you.

I am a tiki aficionado. And in fact, I'm hosting a luau in just 2 weeks. So, I don't know if you know this. So, you're in Florida. Jimmy Buffett actually passed on Labor Day weekend a few years back. And so, since then, I've wanted to do like a Labor Day weekend Jimmy Buffett kind of tribute Luau party. And so, this year, we're doing that.

Well, we never would have known that if I didn't see the lei hanging behind you. So, it's a great conversation starter.

That's bringing a little personality into the conversation.

Did your stomach drop initially when I asked the question?

I was just wondering how graphic we were going to get.

Oh, man. Business with the boys at night. Yeah.

After dark.

Um, but with that said, Mark, just to quickly set the stage so people, uh, know who you are, uh, give us a brief overview as to what you do now, and then we're gonna take them all back to, you know, when you got started. But just help set the stage.

Yeah, so today I'm really blessed, uh, to work with, uh, businesses as an outsourced Chief Revenue Officer. And I say revenue instead of marketing or sales because I'm a big believer that they're sort of interconnected systems. And in fact, in my book, I talk about there's sort of 3 different systems. There's attraction systems attracting more of the right prospects, not just quantity but quality. And then there's accelerating your best deals through the sales pipeline. So, not just the volume and conversion rate but also the speed. And then activating existing clients for fast renewals, larger upsells, more referrals. That acquisition revenue stream as well as the retention revenue stream and the expansion revenue stream are really part of, you know, an overall holistic system. And so I work with companies to sort of create those systems and then operate those. And I'm one of few marketers that is also focused not just on driving top-line revenue, because that's kind of what most marketers do, but I'm focused on building bottom-line EBITDA as well as the sort of structural capital of the processes that sort of drive that EBITDA, as well as the customer capital that, you know, really drive enterprise value. So that makes it particularly valuable, not only for any business that's, you know, running and trying to increase the value of their enterprise, but especially those that are heading towards, you know, some sort of M&A activity or recapitalization or even a founder exit. Understood.

That's helpful.

I guess, you know, you didn't come out of the womb, so to speak, doing this work? What were some of the steps in between, say, schooling up to this point? Sure.

So, I'll date myself a little bit. In the early days of the internet, so I'm talking like the mid-'90s, people didn't have access to the internet all the time. It wasn't in their pocket like it is today. So, they treated it like the billboard at your local grocery store. They would like post a flyer. And I was actually playing music in bands. This microphone is a relic of That time and managing bands and touring around. And so, I noticed that people would go to these internet websites, which were billboards at the time, and they would say, I have the bootleg tape— tape, yes, definitely dating myself— of Dave Matthews Band playing in Atlanta. All right. And I know you like Dave Matthews Band. I know you live near Atlanta. And there was no such thing as spam at the time. People wanted you to know their email address. So, their username was their email address. So I started building databases of people that liked certain genres that lived in certain areas. And then when one of the bands that I was playing in or managing went to that area, I emailed everybody. I was selling out concerts for little unknown artists, which led to a job at a record label, led to a job at a radio station. Uh, and I was managing a top 10 station in a top 10 market, uh, by the time I was sort of in my mid-20s. Um, but radio is way too slow to adapt to new technology, and that was really what had got me excited and passionate about marketing. And so I actually quit, helped found a tiny little sort of digital agency which grew to be, you know, one of the fastest growing and has been in, you know, 1,000 fastest growing companies for the last 10 years. Then got my MBA focused specifically within marketing and analytics. And so worked with some companies, did some of the very first ads on Instagram, had the full data pipeline coming from Twitter and Facebook and Instagram that we were building machine learning and AI models against to predict advertising responsiveness, and was really passionate about using, you know, data and technology for marketing. In fact, Ad Age magazine named me a marketing technology trailblazer. I was one of the top 25 people in the world at using data and technology for marketing. But what I have seen over the last sort of 10 years is the proliferation of marketing technology and ad tech and RevOps and data and all these different sources has made it so that you can't be successful just by being the first mover to use a new technology. You actually need strategy based on foundation and then processes that you can then layer in data and technology. But there's a whole generation of marketers that all they've done is just be the first mover. They were the first ones to optimize their website for search engines. Once everyone started using search engines, they looked like a genius. But there was no strategy behind it. It was just a tactic. And so it's interesting to see so many companies just get blinded by tactics. They're always chasing this growth hack and this magic bullet that they think is going to help them grow. But Real growth comes from that strategy based in foundation.

It's amazing thinking back to— and first of all, congrats on all the success and recognition that you've had over the years. But it's amazing to hear, you know, you say, you know, back when the internet was just basically online billboards, it's crazy to think like how looking back, how much more difficult things were at that time. compared to what we have access to now, particularly with AI these days, but also how easy it was if you look through the proper lens, how easy and cheap it was to be able to gain momentum just doing things that are sometimes second nature now that were brand new then, like just scraping lists and sending out emails.

Right.

Like you need to build a relationship with your email list now to gain any results, whereas you could just send an email and sell out concerts then. You know, it's pretty wild to think about that change over time.

Yeah.

Yeah. I maybe open 1 out of 10 emails now. And back then, everybody was happy just to get one. You've got mail.

And they know I like the Dave Matthews Band. Like, that relevance.

Wow.

Like, what an internet stranger is telling me something that I might like.

That's wild. Walk us through. So, you know, everyone on this this podcast, we all work with business owners in both similar and complementary ways. What I'll say is similar is around exit planning and value acceleration.

Yeah.

And from our intro call, I know that you have your CEPA designation.

Uh-huh.

And so for those of you who don't know, CEPA is C-E-P-A, Certified Exit Planning Advisor. But you're not the one who's doing the full valuation process, soup to nuts, coordinating all the puzzle pieces. There are 2 particular puzzle pieces that you focus on and you've really leaned into. Can you just kind of talk us through sort of what exit planning is for those that may not be familiar, and then particularly the areas that you lean on the most?

Yeah, absolutely. So, there's a concept that running your business as if it's ready to sell at any time is actually just a good way to run your business. And it's a newer sort of concept, but something that really sort of resonated with me in the Exit Planning Institute, Scott Snyder and Uh, those folks have really sort of put this idea out there. Uh, and I, and I think that it's absolutely true. Um, because if you're running it to sell, that means that it's not dependent on the owner because no one wants to buy a business that's dependent on the owner. You actually don't want to run a business that's dependent on you because then you can't go on vacation or have any time off. Uh, the other thing about, you know, a business that's, you know, ready to sell is you're maximizing all of the opportunities to increase your value. And all those things. But it's interesting that the exit planning space has really changed a lot because there's a very large cohort of business owners that are getting to the place where they're going to make a transition. They're either going to sell to private equity or they're going to sell to their employees, or they're going to pass it down to the next generation of their family for family-owned businesses. And as a result of this, you know, sort of large cohort of people people, there's a whole, um, you know, sort of industry of advisors that has emerged to help them because there's some really startling statistics around exit planning. The first is that for the average, you know, entrepreneur in America, business owner, 70% or more of their wealth is tied into that business because over their career, they haven't been putting money in a 401 that's been sponsored by, you know, a large corporation. Instead, they've said, Why would I pay a man, you know, a 401 manager to manage my money? I'm going to manage my money by investing it into my business. And so, 70% or more of their wealth is tied to that business. And their retirement is really largely dependent on their ability to make a transition out of that business. But here's the scary part. 70% of businesses that try to sell don't. And then another scary statistic is something like 70% of people that do sell regret it within the first year. And largely because they're either sort of not prepared personally for what they're going to do next, not prepared financially for what they're going to do next. And so, there's a whole lot of moving parts to help that business owner get ready to sort of sell their business. So, what are they going to do personally next? How do they protect themselves from, you know, sort of tax exposure, legal exposure? all of those things. But what I have seen is one of the best ways to increase the value of a business when it comes time to sell is through improving the marketing and sales systems so they can show a trajectory of growth to the new buyer, because buyers buy into a storyline of growth. But so often, the folks that are advising them are people that are focused on how do we minimize this tax liability? How do we make sure that your investment Uh, funds are, you know, there for you to live off of. There's a whole lot of things that they have to do to help that business owner be ready to exit. And so when they identify, man, we could really get a lot more for your business if you improve some of these marketing and sales systems, they then sort of send that owner out to look for, uh, help, uh, with that. And unfortunately, most marketing and sales folks— and I say this from experience because I've been in it for 25 years— They're really just focused on top-line revenue. That's where they've lived their whole life. And oftentimes, it's kind of, you know, experimental. Let's test and learn. Let's chase a growth hack or 2 to try to get some of that top-line revenue. They can't spell EBITDA and they've never really thought about enterprise value. And so, recognizing that, I've really taken all of these marketing and sales expertise that I've built over the last 25 years and applied it specifically to that context of getting a business ready to sell. Uh, in, in as little as 12 months, we can do sort of 4 quarter-long sprints that really protect the value that they've already built within their business, uplevel that to make it the most attractive business it can be just based on where it is, then bring in some strategic growth initiatives That not only will drive that EBITDA and the revenues, but also improve the overall enterprise value through building some of those intangible capitals related to their structure, related to their customer concentration, related to sort of their social capital and their reputation in the marketplace.

Landon, Mark brought up a good point through that overview. And beyond your work in the consulting side for exit planning and value acceleration, obviously you are also a financial advisor, primarily working with business owners in their planning. How do you communicate or suggest or walk business owners through the differentiation between Putting all their money back into their business to reinvest versus shaving some off to go into more traditional vehicles such as 401, a brokerage account, other areas so that regardless of what happens with their business, they've been siphoning some money off to make sure they're in a good spot. What do you tend to suggest that people do, Landon?

Totally dependent on the situation, right? And it's almost financial planning heresy, but a lot of times what I find is that the right answer is to reinvest back in the business.

Huh.

And again, so that's kind of the weird space that I play in, right? It's like I don't get paid on you reinvesting back into your business, but if the math says that's where the opportunity is, that's where we need to go with it, right? But how much risk are you willing to take, right? Because you've got an asset that is not exactly liquid, right? And it goes back to the conversation that I always have. And it's, you know, if Mark, you had $20 million in Apple stock with me, you would probably say, hey, we need to diversify that, right? You're crazy. But you could very well have a business that's worth $20 million and you feel completely fine with it because you have this thing called control.

Yeah.

Right? So, it's a very weird space that I play in. But again, it depends on kind of the owner readiness of how, what time they want to exit, what the state of the business is. And is there excess cash flows to be pulled out? I mean, sometimes it's like, you know, they're not taking much of an income. You know, everybody thinks businesses are making all this money. Well, a lot of them aren't. Their balance sheet looks good from that standpoint, but the liquidity is next to none. So, you know, it's just kind of getting them over the hump. And for a lot of entrepreneurs, the stock market or the publicly traded market is a scary place, right? And then it's trying to bring them forward to the reality of saying, look, you know, I know your $20 million business, Mark, in this case, is— it feels very safe and secure to you. But the reality is that's a very, very micro-cap stock if we're looking at it in reality. Apple, I would argue, is one of the best-run and best, you know, innovative companies in the world historically. And I could trade it at the click of a button. So, which one is— Yeah. More risk, right? So you kind of got them to unders— get them to understand that, look, the publicly traded space, especially in like Omaha, we had Level 3, didn't go well for a lot of people, right? Back in the, like you say, in the '90s, like you had people buying these individual stocks from these, you know, these brokers that were just out there selling stuff. And maybe they got their teeth kicked in then and they're like, look, the market is just a bad place. But if you can basically give them a paradigm shift and make them realize that, look, the dollars that were going to be in the market, they shouldn't perform as high as your business does because otherwise you'd sell your business, put it all in the market. You've got to get them to understand it's just something that runs in the background and it's diversified entrepreneurship, much like you do with your business, Mark, much like I do with mine. And these are the best-run businesses in the most entrepreneurial country in the world, you know, if we're using an S&P. And it's just going to run in the background and over time, it's going to average that 8% to 10% return. And that's great. It's just one sector of your balance sheet. And so, then once they get to kind of understanding that, it's okay, well, what do we need to be independent outside the business? And then we can put some target metrics in place to start doing that. And how do we do it tax efficiently and still provide liquidity and all of that? That's a long-winded answer, but it's— That's the dance I dance.

Yeah, it's difficult to figure that out and it's through conversations, through math as well. And frankly, I mean, it's like, all right, cool. Plug someone like Mark in so they're bringing in more money so they can do both.

You also have to realize that most entrepreneurs historically, I mean, statistically grew up either poor to middle class. And so, they may have a $20 million business, but they still have that scarcity of, I'm going to run out of money. And it's wild. Like, I've got clients I know that have well north of the $20 million and they still are like, hey, it might be time to look at putting some stuff in an irrevocable trust for estate planning. And it's like, well, I lose control of it then. Whoa. Like, I don't know if I want to do that, right? It's like, are you really going to spend $40 million? You know, but that's— it's a tough mindset paradigm shift. You got to get them through. For sure.

Mark, go ahead.

The foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Like, it's so funny though. Like, they say that one of the best indications of success in entrepreneurship is the ability to try again. And but I also think the same thing is true about one of the best indicators of success with investment of any kind is the ability to sort of learn from mistakes and try again. And you were talking, Landon, about folks that they got their teeth kicked in and in this crash or whatever it might be, and then they've just sort of decided That's not for me. And I tell people all the time when they're like—

I bet you have that happen in advertising, too, don't you?

That's right.

Yeah. Well, I did it for 3 months. I didn't get any results.

So—

Well, and unfortunately, in my business, there's a lot of snake oil salesmen that are out there convincing—

There are still in mine, too, Mark.

I believe that.

I believe that.

But, and I tell the joke, like, I used to think girls were yucky, too. But I grew and I came around. And then came around to it. Uh, and so, but it's really interesting to, to hear you say that, Landon. But you were about to, to ask something, David. Sorry I stepped on you.

No, you're good. So, uh, I want to try to get to some of the tactics. I know you were leaning into a little bit, uh, or leaning a little bit more, uh, talking about the importance of, of strategy, which I agree with.

Sure.

But I'm curious to know, like more specifically, what sort of industries do you work in? Uh, mainly, I'm sure that your, your skillset allows you to work with multiple industries, but, uh, which ones do you find yourself in most often? And then like specifically, what are you helping them with on the sales to marketing, uh, sales and marketing side of things?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So it's actually, it has evolved some as I've started working with more companies preparing for exit, because as you've probably seen, like industries kind of catch the bug of exit and then it sort of spreads like a virus. And so, and to, you know, sort of currently today, private equity decides it wants to buy pool supply companies, which are, you know, they're kind of retail-focused. And so they'll look for and they'll find, you know, sort of the best run regional chains of pool supply companies, and they'll buy them and they'll conglomerate them into a nationwide brand. But then the, the pool supply, uh, company owners around the country start hearing of this, and they all decide, well, it's time for— it's time for me to sell out, uh, whether it's private equity or to the next generation or whatever it might be. And so as a result, I've started doing more retail marketing because a lot of those businesses You know, sort of, they got to a certain level, uh, which supported their lifestyle. Maybe that was at $20 million, maybe it was at $2 million, uh, and they kind of didn't evolve since then. And so just kind of bringing them up to the modern millennia, uh, is a whole lot of value for them. And they're— that's sort of that same play over and over. Um, and then, uh, but a lot of my background and expertise is really within sort of a B2B landscape where people are chasing large contracts. And large contracts means lots of people on the buying committee, and lots of people means long sort of timetables. And so there's that context of, you know, sort of selling things in that B2B environment has specific challenges to it that I've built a number of sort of plays against. A lot of them sort of fall under what today would be called account-based marketing. But back when I was sort of learning it, it was just called good integration between marketing and sales, which is fundamentally really understanding who that buyer is, what they care about, not just their descriptors, but the context in which they operate. And then what their journey looks like as they become aware this is a problem that they could solve, as they decide to prioritize solving it, as they evaluate different ways to solve it, as they evaluate different providers of that way that they've chosen to solve it, and then as they negotiate and then choose whether or not to renew or, you know, find new providers. That context is where I've spent a whole lot of time in my career and actually something I'm really passionate about because it integrates both the strategy and the tactics. Because by taking the strategic approach to understand that person, that context, that persona, and their journey that they go through, and, you know, from going— becoming problem aware to solution aware, and then ultimately choosing to advocate or, you know, work with a different provider, that reveals a lot of strategic opportunities to impact them, which then guides the tactics that you use to execute against. And by taking the time to do that strategic analysis, You find things beyond, well, buy ads like everyone else. You find things like, well, it turns out they're all fans of this particular, you know, golf charity events. Who would have known that that's where my customers are? But that is where they are. So I can sponsor that, that none of my competitors have thought about because they haven't taken the time to really understand the customer in that.

That's interesting you say that because that's— I find, you know, not obviously in the advertising world, but that's exactly why I work with business owners. Like, if I was smart, I'd just work with high cash flow earning households or individuals either approaching or in retirement because that's— it's high margin business and it's pretty simple, right? Like, oh, hey, let's Let's put together your income distribution plan and optimize Social Security and run the tax scenario and then slap you on the ass and say, thanks for playing and see you next year for your review, right? Like, it's— and I could do that all day long, but to me, it's like, that's boring, right? Like, that's— there's not all that much complexity to it. Like, you get into business owners' heads and it's like, it's like being in myself or yours or David's heads. It's a fucked up space, right? Like, they've got a lot going on there and they've got multiple— A lot of traffic. Entities, real estate. And yeah, like they've got kids, sometimes their families in or out of the business, they've got shareholders. Like, it's like, give me something like that that is challenging, right? And again, some days I'm like, why the hell am I— because there's a lot, right? But to get them to that aha moment and to give them clarity and ultimately peace of mind, that to me is worth more than any check, right? Because I mean, I watched my dad and his brother go through it, right? I mean, they owned a business together that, you know, my dad was the older brother, but through some lack of planning, he got diagnosed with a glioblastoma brain tumor. He ended up, you know, basically forced out of his own business by his younger brother. And yeah, at the time it pissed me off, but now it's like, well, knowing what I know now, it's like, well, yeah, he couldn't continue to have a partner that was basically at that point in time Mentally capacity-wise was really nothing more than just an employee. You know, so he there was there's some planning there and contingency planning there that should have been done that wasn't that could have made it go a hell of a lot smoother. But yeah, I mean those those things happen all the time, and to be there and be the one that they're like, hey, this situation sucks, but thank God we had you and listened to you. That's. That's where the rubber meets the road for me.

Yeah, that's interesting. Well, and also, it's funny to hear you say that because it sort of triggers in me a recognition of, like I said, right early on, like I got into radio advertising, was, you know, running a sales team with a $20 million budget. And like for a lot of people, like that would then be their career, but like media And advertising was sort of such a limited piece of the marketing puzzle that it just wasn't sort of satisfying to me. And that bigger strategic question around the marketing piece is, you know, what gets me out of bed in the morning.

Yeah, I like to solve problems, right? Like, I think all 3 of us on here, at least I know David, like, he and I were good enough, we could go sell the shit out of product all day long. And honestly, I'd probably make a hell of a lot more money doing that. That's right.

That's right.

I stayed in the old channel doing that.

It's just not as satisfying.

I've got to be able to sleep at night knowing it's the right thing, number one, to do for the client. Um, and number two, yeah, I, I want, I want something that's 10 out of 10 passion for me. Yeah.

What do you notice, Mark? Um, so what I got from your answer is the main space that you play in or like to play in is in the, the B2B space. Did I hear that correctly? Okay.

Yeah.

So What are some of the common problems as you open up the hood, peel back the onion, whatever analogy you want to use, you get to know them some more. What are some of the common problems that you come across on the sales and the marketing side that ultimately you're helping fix?

Consistently, it's lack of systems. And even if they have a system that they run, it's not documented. And without that documentation, they're just missing out on the opportunity to sort of show up as their best selves. And like, I use the phrase all the time, like, systems set you free. Like, a lot of people feel like, oh, system is so much like sort of bureaucracy and overhead, and it restricts creativity. But it actually opens up creativity in a lot of ways because once you've documented a system and visualized it— because something like 60% of the world primarily interprets things through visual stimuli. And so if you don't have a visual representation of your system, you're not getting the best insights out of 60% of your team. And so, and also like once—

That's a good little nugget right there, everybody. Just replay that back.

Yeah. So, you know, 60% of folks are primarily visual and I'm actually a primarily auditory person. My wife's a graphic designer and so she's primarily visual. But I can just talk about something all day and get it and with other people. But if I, if we don't visualize it, She's not going to understand, you know, what's happening. And the same thing is true within business teams. And so—

60% of the time, it works every time.

Sex Panther. And so, but also, I find that once you've documented a system, then it's a lot easier for people to stand shoulder to shoulder and be like, hey, how do we improve that and collaborate? Versus when you don't have it documented and it's just sort of my way of doing it, then if you make a suggestion, you're kind of criticizing me. And it's not the company's system, it's my way of doing it. And so, then it becomes a lot more adversarial, a lot more owner-dependent, and a lot less transferable, a lot less attractive to an outside buyer.

That's what I was going to say is owners listening, like, Be willing to let your team give you feedback on how to improve your systems, right? Like, they're the ones working at it every day. We don't need to be egotistical nuts to say, hey, it has to be done this way. It's like, if there's a better way, I tell my team all the time, I'm like, I don't know, this is what you do. Like, you tell me how to make it better. Like, I, I don't log into this shit. Like, I work at the high level and, you know, get the details. And then the behind the scenes stuff is you guys. If there's a better way to do it, tell me how to do it. That's right.

Well, if you establish those metrics of how do you tell if it's a successful system? Well, from here to here, there's this volume, this conversion rate, and this amount of time. Those 3 metrics for each part of the process is the key. And then anything you do that maintains 2 of the 3 and improves 1 of the 3 is a success. And it also ensures that you always show up as your best self. Because, you know, very often, especially in marketing and sales, people are like, I've been doing this a million years. I know how to show up for the sales meeting. But then they fail to do, you know, a thing or two that is the difference between a highly successful meeting and a moderately successful meeting. But if they got a system, they got a checklist, they remember to wash their hands before performing surgery, and a lot fewer patients die. So that's the biggest thing I see is just that documentation of systems. And then the second biggest thing, I'm going to come back to strategy a little bit, is they fail to think about their differentiation and they all the time talk about like the benefits of the category. And so like they'll describe, you should really hire us because we do A, B, and C, which is what every other company in their category does. Right.

Does they do? Yep.

And it's a big benefit to the buyer to get A, B, and C. But why should they get it from you? What is it that's unique about your way of delivering A, B, and C that not only is proven and inspires confidence from that buyer but also is unique to you so that they couldn't get it from anywhere else? And so, translating those category benefits into The unique benefits of working with you is the other thing that I see people fail to do a lot.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think something that's a differentiator, and it doesn't have to be a crazy philosophy or anything, right? Like, I've found, just like you said earlier, if you can find segments of individuals you enjoy working with that are passionate about the same thing, Start there, right? Because one, you're going to enjoy your time spent working with those individuals because there's a lot of commonality there. And 2, if they just know you like Dave Matthews Band and you guys can have an easy conversation, the likelihood of them doing business with you probably goes up over somebody else who just said, hey, we do A, B, and C.

That's right.

That's right.

As far as— and excuse that background noise, I recently became a child and Bought a fidget spinner and it fell. I got it right here.

You're growing up while Benjamin's buttoning us.

I texted my wife quick. I was like, did you hear that? That's metal hitting glass. But I'm curious to know, Mark. Well, first a story and then I'll share with— I'm curious to know, you know, one of, one of our clients that I've We've worked with for a year and a half, manufacturing firm, just to share how silly this is and how I think easy it is to add value to businesses. They've been in business for 40+ years, and when we got to the sales and marketing portion of the conversation, I was like, well, walk me through, you know, what the sales team's goals are. You know what the sales meetings look like, like trying to get a good understanding around how how they operate. Come to find out they don't have sales meetings and they don't have goals. And I'm like, what are you what are you talking about? You know, so just that simple thing of like all right, let's set goals and let's structure some sales meetings have a big impact. But on the surface, I'm curious to hear. your thoughts on how you don't just focus on top-line revenue, but the impact on EBITDA too. Like, how are you able to help from a sales and marketing standpoint that makes those sales, let's call it, more profitable than they were before working with someone like you?

Yeah, absolutely. So some of it's just the mindset. Like, if you discipline yourself to think through not just how does this drive top-line revenue, but also how is it driving, you know, bottom-line EBITDA, that just changes the way you approach things. And it's interesting, you know, you hear me talk a lot about strategy, and I'm a big believer, you know, a little bit of difference in how the, you know, the clubface hits the ball makes a big difference in where it lands down the the fairway. And that's the difference between strategy and tactics. But I actually find that a lot of the sort of strategic things that you want to do in marketing that kind of get people excited, they take some time to bear fruit. And so they're not always the first thing that you should do. In fact, oftentimes some of the boring stuff is what really drives that EBITDA a lot faster. And I've disciplined myself Uh, to take that approach with clients. And so I'll give you a prime example. A whole lot of, you know, companies that are successful and have been around a long time, their primary source of leads is referrals or word of mouth or, you know, repeat customers. Yet they have no structured referral program or, uh, you know, program for, for gaining those referrals. And so it, it's just luck that it happens that way. By documenting their process, by identifying When are our clients at that peak of joy in their engagement with us? When's the right time to ask for a referral? When's the right time to ask for that renewal? When's the right time to ask for that expansion? Just building those systems and structures within the business makes a huge difference to their bottom line without significant investment. It's really just sort of like taking some best practices and layering them into their business. Because there's sort of proven psychology around how to do this and sort of easy to do. The other thing that, you know, we find too is, you know, bringing in and sort of reconciling the tech stack that they're using is oftentimes one of the big ways to drive EBITDA because especially today, there's so many SaaS tools. We talked about this earlier that, you know, I used to be really passionate about, you know, being first mover and knowing all these tech tools. But now, it's largely a distraction for folks. I see people that have got 20 subscriptions, of which they use 10, and they only use half the capabilities of those 10, and they're paying thousands of dollars a month for all these different things. So, we come in, define a process, then what tech enables that process to run better, faster, smarter, more efficient, 24 hours a day, all those things. And then, you know, the By reconciling that, big impact on the bottom line. Cut all of those subscriptions that they're not using and then maybe trade out the 10 that they're half using for 2 that do the 80% of it that they are getting from it. Now, not only are they getting better outcome, but they're spending less to get it. And so that's where that EBITDA sort of focus really sort of reconciles. Whereas if you're just focused on, you know, top-line revenue, buy another tool. You know, let's layer in some more things. Let's layer in some more tactics. Let's, you know, try some other things versus if you're focused on EBITDA, let's get rid of some of these less successful go-to-market motions and focus on the one that really works and be the best in the world at that. That builds a moat from your competitors because you figured out something they haven't figured out. Whereas if you're just trying 5 things, You're really distracting yourself from the one thing that could be that big sort of go-to-market fit differentiator.

It's interesting that you say, use the example of the tech stuff. Most recent example, albeit de minimis on the surface, is we use Slack for communication back and forth. We used monday.com for project management. We use another, you know, service for different forms and whatnot. And we just recently switched to ClickUp, which, you know, is cheaper just in general, but it has all those functions and more under one roof. So again, on the surface, it seems fairly de minimis because those other tools, Slack and Monday, You know, I, you know, they're, they're not that expensive. So you save a couple bucks. But what you don't necessarily see in the numbers, but you feel over time, is the productivity goes up substantially because you're not switching from tab to tab, program to program, like everything lives in, in one roof. And the time that was spent, you know, transitioning from one tool to the next can actually be reallocated to selling more. So you're, you're able to squeeze more out of your team than you previously could. And it's tough to measure that looking forward, but you can identify it, you know, looking in, looking in the rears.

That's right. Yeah, that context switching, like there's so much psychology research that's been done around, you know, as humans we actually suck at multitasking. Uh, the, the idea that you can multitask is actually just a myth. You can't. You can do 2 things poorly, or you can do one thing well. And so the idea that— and every time you switch contexts, there's a mental drain on you too, just moving from this platform to that platform, you know, to take the insight that you now need to share internally. And having that all in one place is a huge benefit.

Well, Mark, this has been great so far as we start to wrap up, one of the questions that we always ask one of our guests is about a book that's had an impact on them. And most of the time people pick, you know, a general book that most people have heard of. And you insisted on, hey, can I mention my book? But I want to share what I learned from writing the book, not just what is inside the book. So please feel free to share What's inside the book, but also share what some of your learning was as you were creating and writing it. Yeah.

So, and I'm sort of sheepish about promoting my own book as a, you know, a book that made a big impact on me. But for anyone that's written a book or thought about it, you know, I wrote it before, you know, you could just sort of put some ideas into ChatGPT and have it turn out a book.

Should have waited.

I know I should have. If only, if only I had known. But, you know, it did a lot of things for me because it helped really sort of to congeal and create a streamlined approach to a lot of things that I had been doing for decades and working with businesses. But by reconciling, essentially peeling away all of the fluff To find what's the core thing that unites it all and that can really sort of drive the success. And the nicest compliment I got from anyone was someone that I had worked with. They had been a client of mine in the past, and they are now running a marketing and sales function. They're a revenue officer within a company. And he's like, I use your book like a textbook. He's like, it just helps me keep focused on You know, all the things. And, and I was a little bit sheepish when I kind of put it together about, you know, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Like, there's a lot of the ideas in the book, it's a synthesis of other things that have already been said by other folks, but it brings it together in a framework that makes it easy to apply and, and reconciles, you know, potentially different points of view, but, but through a lens that, that makes it all make sense. And that process of, you know, taking all of the things that I could write about and saying, what's the, you know, how do I make this the most impactful page that they're really going to get something that they're going to benefit from on every page? And, and then turn that into every chapter has a real takeaway and a real value. That was helpful for me in sort of getting rid of a lot of the fluff that people do and helping to sort of realize, you know, what's at the core of driving results for businesses. And so that was, that was a really great experience for me to do it. And then it's been really rewarding to see that it works for folks, that it provides, you know, the 10,000 hours that I've invested in marketing and sales I can give to people and a few hours read and they can then take and go do. And that's been really rewarding for me to see that happen for folks.

And Mark has been nice enough to offer any of our listeners.

That's right.

So, a free copy. So, the title of the book is Are Your Leads Killing Your Business?

I was going to say you gave a great overview, but you didn't say the damn name, Mark.

There it is.

So, because I find, and I bet your audience has this sensation too, too. So many business owners are like, I just need more, I need more volume, more leads, more leads, more leads, more leads. But that's not really the key to success. The, the key is both the throughput, like how well are you managing the leads that you got, not only from attracting the right prospects, accelerating those best opportunities to the sales pipeline, and then activating those clients for faster renewals, larger upsells, more referrals, but also Bad leads can actually kill your business. I've seen this a million times. It creates this death spiral because if you don't have the systems in place that help you identify the difference between a potentially good lead versus everyone else, then you spread your resources thinly across all of them, and your competitors are identifying those best deals and they're putting all of their resources on that, so they win. And so, you're left with the table scraps. And the problem with those table scraps is they don't believe in your product. So, they make you customize it to them, which is not building for what the market wants. It's building for what this one customer wants. That pulls you further behind your competition. They don't believe in the value you're delivering. So, they negotiate down on the rate. So, your margins are thin. So, you can't reinvest in the product. And so, that pulls you further behind your competition. And then, they churn out. Uh, without ever providing any advocacy in the marketplace or referrals or testimonials or any of those other things, which pulls you further behind your competition that has raving fans in the marketplace. So those kind of clients will actually kill your business. And without the systems in place to help identify those best opportunities to then apply the resources that it takes to win them, you're left with those scraps, which do kill your business. But Free copy for all the listeners. Go to modernrevenuestrategies.com/freedownload. Not only do you get the book, you get all of the templates and calculators and, you know, sort of the toolset that you can use to sort of implement these systems for your business.

And I'm assuming our listeners can find you there as well or get in contact with you there as well.

That's right. Anyone that downloads a copy, they're going to get an email from me asking for their feedback. And I'm happy to do— I've built a number of sort of free diagnostics that I run companies through. And so any of your listeners that are like, where would I even focus? You know, is it on attracting more of the right prospects, accelerating those best deals, or activating existing clients? I've benchmarked hundreds of companies of all different sizes from, you know, $2 million a year to, you know, $1 million a year up to, you know, $100 million a year. against within lots of different SIC codes. And so I can look at, you know, something like, you know, 20 different KPIs or less if we want to do a little more streamlined version and tell you where you rank versus your competitors and best in class. And then that creates a lot of focus. Well, you know, you're doing a pretty good job here, but you're not doing as well as you should be over here. Let's focus on that first. And then ultimately you want to build that holistic system that brings all 3 of those interlocking systems together. But Just having some focus on, well, how do I rank versus, you know, typical, really creates a lot of clarity for folks.

Well, thank you for that. And we, yeah, we appreciate it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I would take that a step further though. And maybe I'm the only one that's like this, but I would imagine a lot of our listeners are too. I would encourage you to certainly go and download a copy Give yourself a few pages or first chapter, and if you like it, go and buy the book because it can certainly get lost on your desktop somewhere and frankly strain your eyes too. So, my copy will be here Wednesday, August 20th, Mark. So, I'm going to quickly—

And regifting books is an awesome thing to do. So if you get somebody else out there that, you know, we all fight the same fights as entrepreneurs. So yeah.

Yeah. So A, I encourage you to do it for your own purposes, uh, but B, uh, for an extra $20, uh, making sure you're supporting someone who's, who's fighting the good fight. So would encourage you to start with the free download, make sure you like it, um, but spare the $20 so you can put it on your bookshelf, actually read it, uh, and support someone who's doing Some great things.

Thank you, David. That's very nice to be.

Of course. Well, Mark, appreciate your time today.

Yeah, I've enjoyed it. You guys are great. Thanks for having me on.

And enjoy, enjoy getting laid in a couple weeks.

See you as well.

He's gonna be out of commission. He's got the baby coming. So yeah.

Thanks again, Mark.

It's been great.

Yeah, appreciate you joining. For everyone tuning in, appreciate your time and attention as well, and we will catch you on the next episode.

Who knew I would make it this far? They hated, they never believed me. Yeah, I would never drop the ball. I know I make it look easy. Yeah, Mayweather with the defense. I don't care what a critic got to say, I got them picking up the pieces.