Mastering the Curiosity Conversation: 27 Years of Sales Success with Theresa French

Welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast, where we talk with entrepreneurs, founders, and leaders at B2B services, tech, and SaaS companies to learn the systems and processes they've used to create success for their business. We'll also learn from marketing and sales experts to provide insights to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and the podcast is brought to you by Modern Revenue Strategies and their 10X ROI B2B Growth Guarantee. Schedule a free diagnostic call to learn the fastest path to double your B2B revenues in just 90 days. Welcome to another episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and today I'm very excited to welcome my guest, Teresa French. Now I'm going to read her bio so I can make sure I get this right. Theresa is the founder and CEO of Sellmark Sales. She has 27 years of in-the-trenches sales, sales management, business development consulting experience. She's helped her clients earn multiple millions in revenue over the last 10 years, and she does this by mastering a curious sales conversation that converts. So we're going to talk about, uh, that very alliterative Solution that she has there. She's worked with more than 3,000 women and counting experience the limit-shattering coaching provided through her proprietary Serve and Solve sales method, driven by an authentic connection framework that she calls the CARE Conversational Framework. Teresa's clients have navigated their way to more than $3.7 million in revenue in just the last 3 years. Teresa loves showing entrepreneurs how to tap into their natural-born curiosity and empathy to reveal unshakable confidence and charge higher fees, ignore imposter syndrome, and go toe-to-toe like a pro with high-level C-suite decision makers so that they can close lucrative contracts that fund their biggest dreams. So what an inspiring vision that you have, Teresa. Welcome so much to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to talk about sales. It's in my DNA and it's It's what I love most of all. So thank you for having me.

Awesome. So DNA, it's certainly, you know, 27 years of experience. Why don't you tell us a little bit about sort of how you got here, what your path was to get to doing this type of thing?

Well, it's an interesting and funny story because it started when I was 9 years old. I'm a daughter of a single mom. I was in Levi Strauss. I might be dating myself with that comment a little bit back in the day. And I saw this outfit I wanted and she couldn't afford it. She said, well, honey, you're going to have to make some money. So, I went home that day and I said, how am I going to make some money? I decided dog walking sounded like a pretty good idea. So, I went door to door about a 4-block radius, knocked on everyone's door. Can I walk your dog? Can I walk your dog? Can I walk your dog? And my biggest lesson in sales was learned at that very young age. Be sure to qualify your lead. Make sure that there's some indications that they have a dog. Might be a good idea. So, but that summer I ended up raising almost $3,000 walking dogs. Wow.

That buys a couple pairs of jeans, I bet.

That's right. I had, and I had lots of walking shoes that I went through as well. But, um, you know, I've long been convinced that if you know how to sell, you can write your own paycheck for anything, anytime, anywhere. So you just have to learn how to have the conversation, how to qualify, how to know who to go after, and how to, how to close the deal. So I've spent my whole life, most of my career teaching others how to have fun selling. So, that's how we got started.

And so, tell us about sort of your current practice. How is it that you go about teaching people to have fun selling and to go toe-to-toe with, like a pro, with those C-suite decision-makers?

So, we have a lot of mindset involved, of course. And as a consultant and coach, I work with primarily solo consultants or small startups. That are new to the— newer to the sales game.

Okay.

Really formally looking for business around something they've created. It could be IP, leadership training, DEI training, things like that, like consultants or tech SaaS companies who have a new product that they're launching into the market. And in most cases, these are not trained salespeople. These are people who are what I call non-traditional salespeople. They created a product and now they've got to sell it. And it's hard. And if you don't know what you're doing, if you've never been taught, there's a lot of mistakes and a lot of potholes to get stuck in. So, Sellmark Sales is a sales consultancy and coaching firm. And I work with non-traditional salespeople to help them get over the mental hurdles, the practical hurdles of just running a pipeline, closing deals, writing proposals, things like that. Because if you don't know what you're doing, you're guessing and you're leaving money on the table. So, I have really, really dedicated myself to making sure People don't do that. They deserve to make the money for the good products they bring to the market. So, I'm all about helping them and have fun. Did I say fun? Because sales can be a lot of fun if you let it and you don't let it become a daunting, overwhelming kind of thing. And the one thing that I do notice in a lot of my clients is when they think about talking to the CEO of a Fortune 100 or Fortune 1,000 company, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome that sneaks in there.

Sure.

That, ooh, how am I going to talk to them? And really, we got to break that down and kind of like Jan Brady did in The Brady Bunch and just pretend they're all in their socks and shoes in their living room. So, it's just about making them human and really realizing that if you have a solution, you better bet they've got a problem. And if you can solve it, you need to serve them with your solution. So, that's really where we started with the serve and solve. Get away from the sales word and get into what are we really doing? We're serving a need and solving a problem that they so desperately need to be solved. Why not you?

Yeah, I love that. Well, and it's so interesting too that you call out that, you know, they're people after all.

Yeah.

And, you know, we work primarily with, you know, B2B. And so often in the B2B space, you know, companies selling to other companies, really, they lean into the sort of the logic of it. Like, here are all the features that we deliver and they lean so much into that that they forget that it's actually people on the other end of the line that are making decisions. And those people are still emotional animals. And so, we still make decisions based on emotion. We oftentimes then justify it with logic. But the ability to sort of recognize that those decision makers, even when they're C-suite decision makers that might have a very impressive resume, they're still people after all.

They are. And they have egos and they have responsibilities. They have a board of directors over them saying, we need you to perform at this level. So, there is a big— there's a large amount of integrity that a CEO or a director or a regional president, they all have responsibilities with pressures on them. If they're not fixing their problems, they're at risk of their career.

Yeah.

So, you better bet this is an important endeavor to know that there are solutions out there. It really at that point becomes an opportunity to show them how to buy your solution and why and what value exists for them when they do. It's that simple. And I know it sounds simple and everyone says, but it doesn't work that way. It does with the right conversations. It absolutely does.

Well, and you call out something really interesting there, which is so often people that don't have a sales background sort of feel like there's some sort of fairy dust that happens or it really takes a certain personality to be a good salesperson. But what I have seen and I think, you know, from our previous conversations, you've seen this as well, is that so often real success in sales comes from the process and having that, you know, sort of repeatable process and the systems that ensure that you're identifying that need and qualifying that they can actually purchase and then matching your solution to the need so that you can demonstrate the, you know, sort of story of transformation and the results that they're going to get. And when you follow that process consistently, it pays off whether you're the, you know, the most silver-tongued public speaker out there or you're just someone that has a good solution that, you know, solves a problem that they have. Do you see that to be true that oftentimes just getting that process in place propels a lot of these sales conversations?

100%. And you touched on it just a moment ago when you said the word consistency. So consistency in all areas of the sales process In the business at large, but we're talking about sales today. But consistency of running a pipeline, follow-up— fortunes really are in the follow-up of, of that outreach. Consistency in how you operate in a sales conversation itself. The consistency of pricing, making sure that you're staying in integrity with your pricing models. Consistency in following up with past clients or, or offboarding, onboarding, like Consistency is all throughout the process.

Yeah.

When I look at consistency, if there were a magic sauce, if there were like a magic fairy dust that existed for sales, it would be in consistent actions in any one of those areas that I just listed. So, you're right. Consistency. But the process has to be defined in order to be consistent. So, consistency only happens if you know the steps 1, 2, 3, and 4 and follow them in that order until such a time as you feel you need to tweak it a bit. Now, you can't tweak it and you can't change it or test it until it's been consistent. So it's kind of a loving relationship between the two. But the process, there's a process in getting a client, there's a process in closing the client, there's a process in serving the client.

Yeah.

And if those processes are not defined, you are shooting from the hip most of the time and you won't be consistent. You will simply lose out. And guess what? Your prospects know that. They feel it. And if you are not consistent in your conversations, either how you met them and that carries through all the rest of what you're doing with them, they won't buy because confused minds, scared minds don't buy. So that consistency is so, so critical for building trust as well.

That's right. Well, and you hit on a really good point there that we talk about a lot, which is very often companies sort of their marketing says one thing like, you're gonna love working with us because, you know, all the best people work with us. But then their sales process says something else like, you're gonna love working with us because we're the easiest to work with. And then the actual experience of working with them is totally different because they never see any insight from working with other people, and they're not really that easy. What actually the benefit is, is, well, you're inexpensive. And, and, but having a consistent storyline through the marketing, sales, and even the delivery perspective is what creates the credibility and creates the trust that customers don't churn out. And in fact, so oftentimes we see when, when marketing is making one promise, but then sales makes another one, even though customers don't know why, they just feel like something's not right here, something's not jiving. And then that, you know, causes them to, you know, sort of feel like they should go in another direction versus when you have a consistent storyline of what the benefit of working with you is. It creates that credibility, creates that trust that really sort of greases the skids and helps things move along a lot faster.

Right. And the consistent focus on the prospect. So I just had a couple of coaching calls today, as a matter of fact, and I've been calling it the flipping of the coin. So when we have a product or service, whether it's software or it's a service we're delivering, we know it so well. We talk about it and we like to talk about it. We like to talk about the features. We talk about the deliverables. We like to talk about the inputs. And what we have to do is talk about the outputs, the outcomes. We have to talk because that's where value lives. And so, when we start to talk about whatever it is, if we're, you know, here's how working with us is going to be good, it is only important to that prospect if they know exactly what they get out of that experience. How am I as a prospect going to feel working with you? Not what do I get, but how am I going to feel And what will I reach the outcome that I've actually come to you to get?

Exactly.

And so, being able to always flip the coin away from ourselves and focus it on them, focus it on what they want, what they need, and whenever possible, using their words to describe it back to them.

Absolutely.

When we are, you know, we're in a world of hyper-personalization right now. And AI has this funny little line of too hyper-personalized that it's no longer relevant, which has been really interesting to watch. And then you've got the hyper-relevant that is human-based. That says, look, here's what I think I know about you. Let's talk about it. And I want to focus on what it is for you. Not forget about me for a minute until I know more about you. I can't tell you how I can help. Right. So it really does have to be prospect-focused. And that consistency in messaging that you're talking about a moment ago. Absolutely. From the moment they see a website, they experience the first voicemail, they experience the first email, and then they get on a demo. If that what you're trying to convey as a company doesn't carry all the way through with consistency, You'll lose, you'll lose out in the end. They'll feel it. They're smart. Prospects are way smarter today than they ever were before. So, um, you have to be mindful of that for sure.

Totally true. So we've hit on one aspect of sales, which is this process and this consistency. Um, but there is still sort of, as you've alluded to already, this kind of human element. And, and I know that you, you You talk a lot about sort of the conversation itself. And I love this phrase you have, going from hello to hell yes. Talk to us a little bit about that. What is that process of going from hello to hell yes in the conversation?

Do we have a couple hours? You know, the process of going from hello to hell yes is taking a prospect that you don't know. It's a little easier when they come by referral. It's a little easier when they're in your network. It's a little easier when they've come by way of a testimonial or a past client. You've got a little something to work with. And what is that? It's called common ground.

Sure.

So, when we make good on those bits of common ground that come so easily from those sources, how do we replicate that in someone we don't know, who's never been introduced to us before, who we are cold calling, cold emailing, meeting in a networking event, or what have you? We have to create some kind of common ground, which I'll go back to the hyper-personalization again. It requires research. It requires knowing who you're talking to. Now, knowing who you're talking to also requires some real deep work on your ICP, your ideal client profile. You've got to know who matches best with the solution you have and not waste your time or theirs chasing people just because they're upright and have a 98.6-degree temperature.

That's right.

We've got to make sure that we're targeting the right people. When we find them, we'll know what we're looking for, whether we're going on their website, their LinkedIn, or we're reading books, looking at YouTube. You know, I teach my clients to be very expansive in their research. You never know what you're going to find. The biggest benefit that I've found with a lot of the clients that we've prospected, or I've helped my clients prospect, is finding a YouTube video that they had an interview. And in the middle of the interview, they said something so novel that you genuinely found it interesting. You genuinely found it insightful. And you say to them, hey, I found this video that was recorded in 1972.

Right.

Making that number up. And I loved what you said about— and let me add a few thoughts to it. I would love to connect with you because this is something I think we share in common. Right? It doesn't always work out that way. Finding those little gold nuggets are rare, but they're so important. You got to look for them. So, the part of the hello part is getting them to say hello back and having hyper-personalization to start on common ground. I always tell my clients the very first part of your conversation, your sales conversation, which typically in this context is the discovery. This is the first time we're talking to them. We're finding out what's going on. But you have to start on common ground and not ingenuously. How's the weather? Where do you live? Like, really be creative in how you open up that conversation. So, sometimes when we are at high volume, we don't get the chance to do that. An SDR that's got to make 100 dials a day is not going to be able to do that kind of deep research. So, you've got to be smart and savvy on what are the things that your ideal prospects really deal with and where can you start with that common ground. From there, it's about really digging in and saying, tell me about what's going on. And one of the conversations we had here a little bit ago was Not just what's going on. I can have a list of questions. I can give you a list of questions tomorrow. I can give you a list of how to overcome objections. But if you cannot orchestrate the conversation from the response to the next question, you are in trouble. Because where the art of this sales conversation happens, this hello to hell yes. I mean, how do we get to hell yes? We let them feel heard, seen, understood, And we let them know that we really know their problem and we're confident we have a solution for them. And when we ask deeper questions and listen to the response, I can't stress that enough. Listen to the response and then in your own head, draw some cause and effect kind of thinking between what they're saying and what you think they're saying they want. And are they on target? Are they there? Do they get it yet? If not, We have to help them buy. We have to help them see the blind spots that maybe they came for one solution. But really, the problem is very different. And we might need to explore that together. And we never get there if we come in with a list of questions and an agenda like an interrogation.

Right.

We will only get there if we listen and then respond and ask another deeper question and draw that cause and effect relationship with them to bring them to new conclusions. And it's It's not as hard as it sounds, but it is what is left out most of the time.

Yeah.

Because when most of my clients come to me and they record their calls and I listen and we do debriefs and I break it down, I say, these are 3 questions you should have asked. Because at the end, we were probably debriefing because we didn't win the deal and something went haywire or we got ghosted. And I go, let's go back and listen to the game tape. What's going on? When they said this, you should have asked these 3 questions so we wouldn't have ended up here. What's your approval process? What happens next? Do you have a limit on your budget restraints? So again, this is about questioning and listening more so than telling and selling.

Yeah. Well, and you hit on so many good things there that I want to come back and unpack. And so oftentimes in that sales conversation, the way that you really demonstrate that you actually have the expertise that can help them is by knowing what questions to ask to get to the, well, why does that matter? Well, why is that a problem? You know, that you've, I'm sure you've heard the 5 Whys framework. But being able to sort of say, well, you know, I'm here searching for a solution because it takes too long to process my accounting paperwork. We'll just make up a business problem.

Sure.

And so then if you're like, well, why is that a problem? Well, because it's inefficient. Well, Why is that? And like really getting into what it is reveals what they care about most, not only from a business outcome, but also from a, you know, sort of personal and professional outcome. You know, maybe it's, well, if I had more time, I could work on this other project over here. And if I worked on that project, I think I'd get a promotion.

Right.

Or if I had more time, I'd be able to, you know, leave the office on time and then spend more time with my kids. Being able to understand those things really kind of changes the way you frame up those conversations. So that, that's so interesting. And then you, you also talked about, you know, this idea of really digging in to the ICP to understand and, and like the buyer persona to understand not only like the defining of the, you know, the companies that you work with, kind of firmographic things, but one of the things that we find that is so important is understanding the context that they're in. Why is it that they're actually looking for a solution? Was there recent merger acquisition in their category? Is their category shrinking? And so they're trying to find this from an efficiency perspective, or is their category growing really fast, but they're not keeping pace with everyone else? Or knowing that context again helps you identify who do you really work well with? Because most likely you wind up winning folks that are in a specific context and then using that as a real filter, just as you said, to not go after everyone with a pulse and not even everyone that you can get on the phone, but instead swarm all your resources on those ones that you're really likely to win, that are likely to become your best customers.

That's right.

If you're spreading all your resources against every opportunity, you'll never Devote the appropriate resources to the ones you really have to win. And without that, like, you're really in a bad spot.

That's right. I want to go back to something you just said a minute ago because it came across, you know, assumptions have no place in a sales conversation. And oftentimes, because we're so good at what we do, we've served so many clients like this before, we know what the outcome is going to be. We have heard their problems a million and one times. In fact, I've had Some of my clients go, I don't need to ask. I know their problem.

Sure.

No, you might. But they don't. And that's the problem. So, assumptions can be really dangerous. And you were kind of pseudo role-playing a minute ago when you said, it's not efficient. When you were talking about the 5 Whys, it's not efficient. Right away, my mind went, well, what does not efficient mean?

That's right. That's right.

I could tell you all sorts of ways that not efficient is not efficient. And especially even in your context, because I've served those kinds of clients. But what does it mean to you? What does efficiency mean to you? What does it look like when you are efficient? And what's the gap between now and that? Help me understand that. And so, not taking words at face value, not taking statements and answers at face value. There's so many words that come across our radar and we go, I know what that means. And then come to find out—

Just as you said, efficient can mean 5 different things. It could mean the time that it takes. It could mean the You know, sort of people that it takes, could take the cost that it takes. Like all of those are things that could be defined as inefficiency.

That's right. And the words, what you said a moment ago, I loved, you know, what is the context of the meaning of that word based on the role? It could— a VP of sales, a VP regional manager, global, a CEO all have different, different expectations and They have different expectations and different restrictions on what they can and can't do, what they have power to do. Those words all mean different things, perhaps, to those different roles based on their context. So I love that you brought that up because that's really, really important. Yeah.

So you hit on something a second ago that kind of just sparked an idea in my head. So we'll kind of go extemporaneously on this. So you talked about the importance of Or the real opportunity from having that real curiosity and like authentic curiosity. You also referenced before, like the idea of AI. And one of the things that I'm seeing, you know, AIs be used for is this idea of, well, I don't have the time to really research everyone that I'm gonna talk to. Potentially, I could employ an AI. That would go out and look for every time anyone at the company ever talked about these 3 topics and then surface those links up to me so that I can, you know, find them. Are you seeing strategies like that being deployed, or are you doing anything like that that you found to be particularly successful?

Yes, I'm absolutely seeing that. I'm seeing those triggers. You know, it's almost like Google Alerts on steroids.

That's right. So it's like, hey, I've got a meeting with this CEO, but, and we're going to talk about efficiency, you know, we'll stay with that in accounting or whatever it might be. Go out and find everything they've said about finance efficiency and serve that up to me. And then I can quickly breeze through those things and then know where to find that nugget.

Sometimes the, you know, In AI, as you know, and everyone who's listening to this podcast knows, AI is 100% dependent upon the prompt that you give it.

Sure.

And if we have made assumptions in our prompts, if we have taken things for granted, or we're too, too focused on one or two things, like for instance, you just said efficiency in accounting, there might be something that could, that could be our common ground or a talking point that is not related to that.

Yeah.

So we have to be creative and think broadly at first and winnow it down later and then go into that call not thinking you know this person. You still do not know this person because whatever AI served up is only a gauge. It's only— it's like, okay, it's a point on the board, but let me check on it. But what happens is what you said earlier, when you add the quality of the questions you're asking and the depth of knowledge you already have, Shows them one, you're invested. Number two, you're interested. People like to be recognized. People like to be noticed. People like to be given their dues for what they've accomplished. So that's a good thing that builds that ego trust. But at the end of the day, you start with that common ground because I've taken the time to get to know you, which says to you, I care. If I'm willing to do that before we've even talked about doing business, imagine what I'll do with you when we are doing business together. And, and back to the consistency, if the company can't deliver on that level of, of service, right, in the delivery, we might have a miss. We might have a miss here and the consistency might fail. So just be careful. You know, we do. And look, we don't have to dive into people's diaries. That's not what I'm suggesting. But we do have to have enough that we have a good guess at who we're about to talk to and then approach them with questions that help us understand if we're right or wrong.

Yeah.

And I talk about this a lot with my clients. Treat sales conversations without the connotation of guilt or innocence, but like a prosecuting attorney. Now, a prosecuting attorney does not go into court and haphazardly ask questions and hope they get the answers. They are very, very intentional about knowing what they have to hear. Or more importantly in this case, what does the jury have to hear? What do I have to ask to get that suspect or the witness or whoever's on the stand to say exactly what I want the jury to hear?

Yeah.

And I'm going to construct my question in such a way that I get exactly that information. This is another area that salespeople in the sales conversation do not spend enough time thinking about. What do I need to get? We ask a question. We think it's a pretty good question and it usually is. But we're not sure what we're looking for as an answer. So, we're not sure where to go once we get it. And then, we just move on to the next agenda item on the list, right?

Sure.

So, think about your question formulation both to earn trust, to show them— Sam Sales is a really great colleague of mine. Show them you know them, right? That's her term. And really dive into what you need to know so you can get what you need to know. You can make a compelling case to do business with them. And when I say compelling, it's agreed at the table during this discovery or hopefully the second conversation. Yeah, we need to do something about this and I would like to entertain the idea of doing it with you. So, we've got to go in a little more intentional in our line of questioning than most salespeople do.

I love this line of conversation. We could talk all day about this because clearly, we're both really passionate about it. But you've got to be mindful of your time. So, Let's say that some folks listening are in this sort of solopreneur or consultant space and they're really looking to, you know, sort of build their capability of, you know, going toe to toe like a pro in the C-suite. Give us your pitch. Why should they work with you, Teresa?

You know, I've been doing this a really long time and I care as much as I teach my clients to care. So when it comes to sales training, there's a ton out there. There's a ton of sales coaching. There's methods everywhere. I have chosen to really focus on what I feel has the most rubber on the road. And that is this sales conversation, this, this hello to hell yes portion of things. Because this is where AI can never replace this. AI can never replace a sales conversation. It's where the AI can help to get, get on a call. They might even be able to help with a proposal, but they can never sit with a client across the table and understand how to navigate that conversation to get to a sale. And I'm not talking a $1,000 sale. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars of sales.

Right.

So, with that said, I have really become a bit of a guru, if you will, or an aficionado on the essence of the art and science of the sales conversation. It also, just over coaching thousands of clients now in the last 10 years, it's the place fewer people are talking about and more people need help. So, when I, you know, it's hard. I will be honest. It's a hard service to sell. Because people don't know it till they know it, right? They don't know that they need help in their sales conversation because what I usually hear is, oh, if I can get on a call, I'm just fine. What's your closing ratio? Oh, about 20%.

Sure.

Would you like that to be higher? So, with that said, I really care. I go deep. I take on very few clients at a time. Why work with me? Because I'm going to be in the trenches with you. Um, doing the work with you versus doing a 7-module program that you self-study and fill out worksheets and all that stuff. I just have refused to do that. Um, I offer a VIP day to get us started where we really get all the processes you were talking about earlier set in place.

Awesome.

So all of the tangible things, we move fast because money loves speed. So we don't want to be messing around learning how to learn a CRM or learning how to do this or that. Let's get the basics that can be taught or done for you out of the way. And then let's focus on every conversation that you're going to have because That's what we can't teach without doing it. That's the implementation side. So, I have a 3-module course, How to Sell a C-Suite. I'm happy to give to anyone listening. Also, you can find me on LinkedIn, TJ Selling Coach. We'll leave that link in the show notes as well. But yeah, and I love sales and we'll have fun. That's why.

That's such a generous offer that you've got this course that you're going to give to the listeners. So, thank you so much. We'll definitely put that in the show notes. But thanks so much. And then folks can reach out to you on LinkedIn is the best way to connect with you. What was that LinkedIn handle one more time?

Teresa at LinkedIn. Let me give you my email too. I'll give you that as well. It's just theresa@salescallcoach.com.

Great.

And then also LinkedIn, TJ Selling Coach.

Awesome. Well, we'll definitely put that in the show notes so folks can take advantage of that offer. Thank you so much, Teresa, for the time today. Really enjoyed our conversation.

Ditto. Thank you for having me. I really, really appreciate it. It sounds like we have a lot in common.

Talk to you soon.

All right. Bye-bye.

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