Turning B2B Services Marketing Into a Strategic System with John Jantsch

Welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast, where we talk with entrepreneurs, founders, and leaders at B2B services, tech, and SaaS companies to learn the systems and processes they've used to create success for their business. We'll also learn from marketing and sales experts to provide insights to help you grow your business. I'm your host, Mark Osborne, and the podcast is brought to you by Modern Revenue Strategies and their 10X ROI B2B Growth Guarantee. Schedule a free diagnostic call to learn the fastest path to double your B2B revenues in just 90 days. Hello and welcome to the B2B Growth Blueprint. Today I'm so excited. My guest has been hailed as the world's most practical Small business marketing speaker and expert John Jantsch made a name for himself by turning marketing into a system that starts first and foremost with solid strategy, and he revolutionized the world of small business marketing. He's the founder and president of Duct Tape Marketing. John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker, author of 7 books including Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur, and The Ultimate Marketing Engine. He's also the founder of the Duct Tape Marketing Consulting Network, which trains and licenses independent consultants and agencies to use the duct tape methodology. We're actually gonna talk a little bit about that process of licensing that later. He's helped thousands of businesses scale their business to 9 figures and beyond. He's appeared at TEDx, Social Media Marketing World, Content Marketing World, and a host of industry and trade-related conferences. His Duct Tape Marketing podcast has included past guests like Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, Dan Pink, Chip Heath, Ken Blanchard, and others. Fast Company dubbed it the Duct Tape Marketing podcast, one of the best podcasts for business-savvy listeners. John's insights have appeared in prestigious media outlets like the New York Times, CNN, Entrepreneur Magazine, and Inc. Magazine. And today I'm so honored to have him on my podcast. John, thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, you bet. My pleasure.

You've helped lots of businesses and today we're really gonna tap into your expertise and your experience working with B2B companies and really a specific type of B2B companies, many SaaS tech and B2B services that are chasing large contracts. Wind up battling really long sales cycles and have complex buying committees with lots of different stakeholders as they're trying to close that contract. And that leads to a lot of, you know, sort of similar challenges that the founders, co-founders, presidents, and CEOs that are listening to this podcast are sort of dealing with. And so as you think back in your history and all of your memories of success, We're gonna tap into those specifically. Okay. And as we were talking before this show, we talked a little bit about your journey. And, you know, you started with insights and, you know, sort of value to bring to the world, and you've really turned it into an empire, as we talked about earlier, and all the places that you've made an impact and all of the businesses that you'd impact. I know a lot of our listeners you know, today are, you know, really deep in the weeds of doing the work and trying to grow the business, both working in and on the business, as they say. And I know they would love to hear your story of how you were able to move from beyond the person with the ideas doing the work to working on the business and then to actually sort of removing yourself from the organizational chart, as you talked about earlier. And Really scaling yourself. Tell us about what that journey looked like in your business.

You bet. Well, I do have to go back quite a ways because I've been doing this for a long time, but I'll try to make it brief. Um, I, I started, I actually went to work for an ad agency right outta college and, uh, did that for about 5 years. And like a lot of people, I, you know, figured any dummy could run a business. And, uh, so I just jumped out and started my own thing. I really had no plan. I knew I could hustle work, um, which by the way is, you know, half the job in the beginning, right?

That's right.

Um, so I got big projects, little projects, big clients, little clients. I found at some point though, I really liked working with smaller mid-sized businesses where you really were dealing with the owner, you know, in many cases, but they were really frustrating. I mean, I couldn't work with them the same way I'd worked in the agency world. I mean, they had the same needs, never the same budget, never the same attention spans, you know, even then. So, you know, at one point I just said, look, I'm gonna create a new approach to working with small business. I'm gonna create a systematic approach where I can walk in and, and, and say, look, here's what I do. Here's what you're gonna do. Uh, here are the results we hope to get and here's what it costs. Do you want it or not? Um, and, and literally the first 3 people I had that conversation with said, you know, where have you been all my life? So, so really in trying to solve my frustration, I accidentally kind of tapped into what is still today one of the greatest frustrations with small and mid-sized business. It's very hard and getting harder to buy marketing services as a small business. I mean, everybody's selling the idea of the week. They're just getting hammered by SEO people every single day. You know, there's some new technology around the corner that they have to figure out or some new platform they have to figure out. So the fact that somebody came in and said, look, we're gonna install a system. We're gonna, we're not passing go till we do strategy, you know, before tactics was kind of music to their ears. And that Really became, you know, I quickly built a solo practice, essentially doing that myself. I also really built an outsourcing model, and a lot of that was because I just didn't want to have a big team. I had actually had a pretty good-sized team in a traditional agency model. We lost like over one week, lost our two biggest clients, and I was like, well, this, you know, this sucks. I'm not doing this anymore. And so I really kind of said, I can do this by myself. The world was just turning to the internet, you know, at that point. And so, you know, I built not only this unique approach, but I also really built kind of the outsourced model before people were really doing that as well. You know, I started writing about it online. I, you know, because I created what I felt like was a productized approach to building marketing strategy, I had to give it a name. And I will tell you that I would like to say that I did lots of research on this name, but it just kind of came to me one day that duct tape marketing felt like the perfect metaphor. For, for, you know, the folks that I was working with. And, you know, it was, it was a bit of stroke of luck, but it certainly resonated. And so it eventually, I changed the name of my company. It was the name of my first book, my podcast, pretty much everything I do now is somehow branded Duct Tape Marketing. That started attracting other agencies. I mean, there were other like-minded folks out there that were like, yeah, I feel your pain. I wanna work with these folks too. You've You seem like you figured it out. I want to license your system. Again, always in kind of the roadmap. But you know how, same with my book. I knew I'd always was gonna write a book. When a publisher came to me and said, I want to publish your book, I was like, well, I guess I better write it, right? Same with the network of consultants. When people started coming to me saying, I want to license your approach, I was like, well, I guess I better build that. And so, you know, today, now we've, as you mentioned, we've We've installed the duct tape marketing system in thousands of businesses ourselves. We still have an agency, but then we also have licensed our system to well over 400 agencies, fractional CMOs, consultants around the world as well.

That's great and amazing. So you raised a couple of things there I wanna sort of dive into a little bit. You talked about, you know, the challenges of you know, in your early stages, lots of different, you know, companies had lots of different needs and you sort of made a choice that I'm not gonna just sort of show up and ask them what they need and then figure out how to adapt to that. But instead you kind of said, we're gonna have a set of offerings that we can maybe deliver at a little more scale. How, and, you know, in hindsight, it obviously was the right choice, but how scary was that at the time? And did you have any— Times where you sort of had to make a choice to turn away what seemed like potentially a lucrative opportunity or maybe a marquee name?

Yeah, go ahead. I do that every day.

Okay. So, but yeah, how did you sort of know that you had chosen the right model, the right product to deliver, that you really had that, you know, You were focusing on the things that were gonna create the scale and not, you know, looking away from the things that were gonna, you know, create near-term opportunity. What gave you that confidence?

So sometimes I, I have to be careful not to come off too cynical saying this. But, you know, a lot of it was that when you go out and ask people what they want, they will tell you because they feel compelled to answer. But the reality is they don't know what they need.

Right.

So I think as agencies, if we allow ourselves to be dictated by somebody who doesn't really know what they need, you know, they're gonna come up with something and we're gonna react to whatever that something is. When I started going in and telling people, here's what you need, here's why you need it, here's the results we, you know, have been able to get for other people, all of a sudden they're like, awesome, I don't have to think about it now. So I, I guess my frustration of working the old way where you'd get a client and then, you know, they Then they just would demand something every week, and it just really wasn't a great relationship. And so I realized early on that when I got somebody who my message resonated with, with the idea that I'm gonna tell you what to do with this repeatable system, and that was music to their ears, then it was just gonna be a lot better engagement. And that has proven, you know, over the years, time and time again.

That's great. Well, and you also talked about, you know, Not only do you deliver systems, a systematic approach to marketing, but it seems like you also created some systems that allowed you to kind of remove yourself from the process. How challenging was that? Are systems something that sort of come natural to you? Are you sort of naturally a systems thinker or did you have to sort of train yourself into, you know, committing to and being disciplined to Writing down a process, checking off the items in the process. Talk to me about that, you know, sort of transition both for you personally and then how you manifested that in your business.

You bet. So mine came about, I think the first answer is yes, I'm sort of naturally systems wired. I want a process that I can repeat that, you know, gets easier and more profitable. I'm just, you know, to deliver value. However, this is the dawn of the internet. I know it's kind of dinosaur talk here, but, you know, around 2002, 2003, people were actually turning to the internet and saying, I can buy something. So my first goal was actually to create this system so I could sell it as a course. And I did, you know, that. And so that kind of forces you to work through the, you know, if I'm going to sell this to somebody and teach them and I'm not gonna be there doing it for them, you know, that kind of forces you into system creation.

Right.

Then when I started licensing, you know, this system, so now I had to teach other people how to install it. It was a whole nother level of having to create systems. And I'll tell you, I've been doing that for 15 years and we're still creating them, you know, because the world evolves, right? And so, but I will say that I had extra motivation. You know, a lot of times you go to a business owner and you say you need systems and they're like, yeah, we'll get to that someday, right? You know, because it's It's down the list. It sounds daunting, right? Well, I needed systems because that's what I was gonna sell to people. And so it, having that motivation, you know, certainly makes it a priority.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that's actually, you know, in a little bit of a microcosm, but a way for, you know, companies that are looking for how do I move towards more of a system-based approach? This idea of instead of you just doing it, think about how you would teach someone else to do it and then start to distill that, you know, the key points, not all the points, but the key points so that they can then sort of take that and scale that as they extend that beyond their own knowledge base.

One of my early mentors was Michael Gerber, the author of The E-Myth. And he wrote in writing the foreword for Duct Tape Marketing. And, you know, his terminology, you know, really kind of lit the spark in me is he talked about, you know, I don't care if you're, you know, a plumbing business, you know, treat it like you're building a franchise model so that, you know, and frankly, there's been a whole lot of successful folks that have figured out how to build a business like that who have then turned into an industry, you know, expert for, you know, other people trying to do that. So there can be, you know, that model can, you know, whether you call it licensing or you're just selling training, you know, is something that certainly There can be, you know, you can monetize your systems, so to speak.

That's right. Well, and one of the things that I always took away from the E-Myth that I really loved and I have seen be really successful for early stage companies is the idea of, you know, having a role description or a job description and a name next to it, even if it's your name next to multiple job descriptions when you start, the fact that you've described, you know, What's the objective of this role? What, what are the behaviors and, you know, sort of actions that you take? What's the outcomes that you get so that that makes it a lot easier to start to portion that out to other folks? Whereas if you just start and you do everything and you don't really know how you're getting it all done, it becomes really hard to scale and you can start at the, at the beginning with that mindset and it makes things a lot easier as you do get ready to scale.

Yeah, we've, we've for a long time worked with our clients on building a function-based org chart. You know, as you said, even if it's, you know, 2 people in the business, you know, they have all those functions. And then, and really that's, that's one of the appeals of our fractional CMO model. They have a, whether they call it a CMO or not, they have a strategic marketing, you know, function inside of their business. It's just nobody's doing it. And so, you know, that's one of the real value drivers of that model is that somebody can actually fill that function with, you know, a strategic thinker, a, you know, high level of experience, but in a very flexible way.

Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned a couple of things over the past couple of minutes that I want to really get your perspective on. You talked to, you know, you've been doing this for some time and at a time of a lot of change. So there's been, you know, a lot of inflection points as People moved, you know, from solely brick and mortar for, or looking in the Yellow Pages to find service providers to the internet where they're doing research and, you know, sort of driving their own selection process, especially in B2B. And you also talked about, you know, sort of the idea of, you know, you started at an agency and now you empower sort of fractional CMOs. I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, as someone who provides guidance to businesses on how they grow and market, what have you seen, you know, that progression look like? What's the state of the art today and where do you see the future going for that?

Yeah. So a lot of people, when they discover that I've been doing this for 30 years, so I put some perspective, we did not have the internet. when I started, right? So, you know, people, I tell that to millennials and they're like, well, I don't get it. Like, how do people buy, right? And that the thing that I've always, and this is probably in hindsight, but the thing that I've always pointed to is what we are here to do as marketers has fundamentally not changed one bit.

That's right.

We are there to communicate how we create value, you know, to somebody enough that we build enough trust that they're willing to give us their hard-earned money in order to perform what we promised. I mean, that never changed. The only thing that's really changed is the vehicles, the way people buy. That's probably changed more than, more than marketing, frankly. I mean, those things have changed. And, and I think what's allowed us to stay relevant, quite frankly, is that point of view that marketing's a system. It's the most important system in most businesses. And it starts with strategy before tactics. That point of view has never changed. I've been saying that for 30 years. And now it's just a matter of develop a strategy. We just have more tools in the toolbox, you know, to execute on the strategy. But, you know, we're not, I'm not a, you know, there are a bunch of people when social media came along that jumped in and become social media agencies. You know, social media is just a tool, you know, that we employ to execute on the primary strategy.

That's right. Well, and that's one of the things that we see happen a lot is that, you know, companies get distracted by the latest and greatest thing. And even, you know, early on, I, you know, I sort of came to age in marketing during the rise of the internet. But the ability to take data and to use that data to, you know, find little ways to, you know, sort of arbitrage or game an algorithm or whatever it might be was really, you know, sort of exciting early in my career. But the more I worked with companies, the more I realized that's not what leads to sustainable success. And it, You know, I talk oftentimes, I'm sure you know Scott Brinker and, you know, the MarTech conference. When they first published that, you know, layout of all of the different MarTech vendors, there were about 150 on there. And I think about 2014 was the first year they put it out. This year there's over 10,000.

Yeah.

And it's impossible to try to keep up and you can't find the new shiny hammer, the new magic silver bullet. That's going to deliver success. It really is dependent on, you know, building systems founded on marketing strategies that you then lay in these technology and data. AI is, you know, just as you described.

Yeah, that's the new one for certain. I mean, go on Instagram right now and it would take us about 2 minutes to find an AI agency. Let me build your AI agency ad.

Let's pause on that ad for a second. You'll get 10,000 more in the next 5 minutes.

That's right. Yeah. So no question that, I mean, and I, you know, my career at least is littered with people that, you know, chase that shiny thing. It was great for a while, you know, but then it's like people realize, oh, you know what? AI is just a tool baked into everything. Why do we need an AI agency? Right? Yeah.

And we really see kind of a shift even With successful companies of moving away from this idea of chasing growth hacks to more building sustainable systems.

Well, and frankly, the fractional CMO positioning is something that we've been doing the same approach for years. We have really embraced the fractional CMO positioning mainly because what you just mentioned. First off, fractional everything has become much more accepted. In the, in the small and mid-sized business. But also a lot of people, you know, hate to keep blaming stuff on COVID, but, you know, a lot of people got really burned in that period because they had no strategy. They had just been humming along with a good market. And I think a lot of companies have realized, hey, that we need to invest in strategy if we're gonna execute on this increasingly complex, you know, suite of marketing, you know, channels. That's right.

So given your perspective and seeing how things grow, what would you tell, you know, so there's a founder that's, you know, growing his business and he's starting to kind of get at the edges of his expertise. And so he's thinking like, well, should I hire a full-time marketing executive or should I, you know, hire an agency and sort of push it out to them? Or maybe they're exploring the idea of, you know, hiring a fractional, you know, marketing executive. How would you lay out those options for them? How would you sort of describe the current state?

So, you know, I mean, no shock, I'm gonna be a big proponent of the fractional CMO model. But a lot of folks have— there are a lot of flavors of that model. There are definitely people that have been CMOs or had marketing experience that hung a shingle out, and they're essentially selling a 4th of their time to 4 people, right? And while they may be well paid for their time, that's a tough business. I mean, you can't scale that business model, right? I mean, it's a certain— the other thing that a lot of times they'll do is they, you know, it'll be same thing. Okay, business owner, what do you need? Sure, I'll be your fractional CMO. What does that mean? I don't know, we'll define it, right?

Right.

And so next thing they know, it's like they get sucked into, you know, to really having a tough time delivering value. So If I'm that, and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna suggest they're north of $1 million, maybe they're approaching $3 to $5 million, right? That's the place where typically things start getting more complex. You probably have more team, you know, at that point. Do you need a CMO? Probably not, because the CMO at that level is gonna, just their salary alone is probably gonna suck up, you know, 80% of your marketing, you know, spend. But that's the place where you really do need strategic help of some sort. So You know, I would never advocate at that level hiring a CMO because you're just not ready for it. You don't need it, frankly. But you do need strategic help, even if that strategic help is just going to actually be the buffer to help the agency orchestrate or to maybe help your internal team orchestrate. We get called in a lot of times because people went out and hired a bunch of doers, but nobody's telling them what to do. You know, there's no plan that they're executing. They're just writing blog posts and, you know, doing whatever. Right. Because they thought they needed a, you know, person to do that. So regardless of how you do it, making sure that you have that, that somewhat internal strategic leader who's got, you know, whether it's a fractional CMO or marketing manager or whatever you want to call it, that is, that is looking out for the best interest of your marketing, but is also orchestrating. That's where we see businesses all the time. They hire SEO firm, they hire a content firm, they hire a web designer, they hire a social media person. Nobody's talking to anybody, to each other, right? They're just executing on tactics and some of them are actually supporting each other. Some of them are not. And so to me, that's the, that's the whatever you call it, you need an orchestrator, you know, inside your business that is looking at the big picture of your market. And it's probably not you, the founder, that should be doing that. I mean, maybe, you know, you've built this business to a certain point because you were good at selling, you know, but now, you know, the business will, you know, the more the business depends on you to do all of those functions, the less valuable it is, even if you're capable.

So I'm betting that this is resonating with a lot of our listeners today. We've got, you know, founders that have built the business to sort of a certain size and they've hired some doers to come in and do some things that They've been told are important. And so now they're starting to think about that next thing. Could you give sort of one piece of advice? Like, what's something that they could take away to make that first step? So, you know, they don't have time to, you know, find their new fractional CMO today.

Sure.

But they want to get started on this journey. What would be the first thing to do to start to bring together some of these doers to create some orchestration in their business?

Well, I'm gonna back up a little bit, you know, from that point. One of the first things I would say is, you know, do you really understand your customer? You know, because a lot of businesses have grown to a certain point because they had a compelling product, they had a compelling service, they were pretty good at selling it, but they've never really taken the time to look at you know, are they really attracting the right client type of client? Do they have the message that, that really, you know, communicates the value that they can deliver to that client? And frankly, if you've built a business to a certain point, you've got the data. It's, it's inside your business. It's inside your client's head. And so we do a lot of interviewing of, you know, to really understand who, who makes an ideal client for that business, to really understand the problem that business solves. And then we spend a lot of time mapping the customer journey. We've been talking about the customer journey for 15 years. It's a very hot topic now. We, we have a proprietary framework that we use called the Marketing Hourglass. It includes 7 stages: know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And it is the best tool in the world for you to get marketing and sales and service, you know, on the same page, or at least understanding the handoffs that they all participate in. But also understanding how you guide that ideal customer, you know, down the right path. So many people wanna run an ad and sell a product.

Sure.

And when they do that, they're constantly in a price, you know, mode. Running the marketing hourglass through the stages of know, like, trust, try allows you to charge a pre— attract the right client and charge a premium. So those are the places That bit of research is a lot of what we do in the early stages with a client.

That's right. That hourglass visual, you know, reminds me of, you know, other people talk about the bowtie funnel that moves from that first attraction to, you know, sort of that first engagement and then how you sort of activate those clients for more renewals, faster upsells, more referrals.

That's the only way. I mean, we've worked with businesses over the years that You know, they just need more leads because the clients are walking out the back door. And so you constantly are having to feed that. But, you know, the best scenario or businesses that you build momentum because you're keeping those people. I mean, my network of consultants, you know, we have people who've been with us 15 years, you know, and they just re-up every year. Well, you know, that makes your top line growth, you know, a lot easier because, you know, you definitely hopefully are are signing new clients, but you're, you know, you're also counting on that recurring revenue every year.

That's right. That they call the leaky bucket syndrome. As much water as you dump into that leaky bucket, it's still gonna run out. We use sort of, you know, benchmarks and diagnostics to help companies understand like how important is activating their existing clients for renewals, upsells, referrals. Do you have, you know, sort of rules of thumb that you use to gauge whether a company's healthy in terms of The percentage of customers that renew or grow or the percentage of new customers that come from referrals. Do you have any benchmarks there you could share?

So I probably don't have hard numbers of benchmarks, but I will say that I actually, the referral piece of the hourglass is so important. I actually wrote a book on that topic alone called The Referral Engine because I saw, you know, anecdotally, you know, I would ask clients, where do you get most of your customers? Well, they come through word of mouth or referral, right? And then, you know, next question, logical question is like, oh, well, what do you do about that? Well, nothing. It accidentally happened, right? And so, you know, we spend a lot of time early on understanding how to build an intentional referral, you know, channel as part of it. And frankly, you know, when we have a sales conversation with somebody, a lot of times what we do is we just walk them through the hourglass because it just reveals all the gaps they have.

That's right.

And we get to the referral topic and, You can tell they're just all like, I wish there was something we could do about that, you know, piece, but I don't know what to do. Right. But they know how important the channel is.

Yeah, it turns out the answer is systems. Big surprise. We oftentimes tell people if any one channel represents 80% or more of your, you know, sort of qualified leads, you might be in trouble. And so if it's all coming from word of mouth, you might be in trouble. And then we also will say at least 30% of your inbound leads should be coming from referrals. Because like, that's a good sort of, that means you're doing a good enough job that at least a third of your customers are willing to tell enough people and activate their network. And then building those systems that ensure that you get there can be really helpful.

Referrals are a channel that We can amplify. They're hard to scale. I mean, there's sort of an infinite lid on that, but you can definitely amplify them and get more of the referrals you deserve. I mean, and I always like to throw that out because, you know, a lot of times if you're not doing work to deserve referrals, you're not gonna get them no matter what we do. But so that's sort of the— I've— there are 2 or 3. 2-star reviews on Amazon for my book. And I spent, apparently spent too much time trying to explain that idea in the beginning for some people. They just wanted the magic button, you know.

That's right. They bought into the idea that all they had to do was insert AI and it was just gonna work.

Exactly.

That's great. Well, John, this has been a really enlightening conversation and I know our listeners have gotten Any sort of parting thoughts or ideas for, you know, these founders, presidents, CEOs at early-stage companies that are really trying to build and scale as they, you know, chase large contracts, dealing with complex buying committees and long sales cycles? What's your one piece of advice for them?

It's probably twofold. You know, I tell everybody that I talk to, if you're not interviewing 8 or 10 of your clients every year, you're really missing an opportunity to get better at what you do. Number 1. And then number 2 is, is really give this customer journey idea a thought and not, you know, not the funnel, like how do we squeeze people into, you know, our free opt-in or something? I'm literally talking about how do you, how do you guide an amazing experience? And that starts with really the first contact, right? That's, you know, a lot of times people think, oh, all I have to do is make a client happy and then I go ask them for a referral. A lot of times referrals are won and lost in the buying process. You know, it was like, yeah, we got to where we wanted to go. It was the price I said and I got the result, but it was icky, you know, and it's, you know, end of the game, you know, right there. So, you know, really looking at what are all the touchpoints, what are all the ways people, somebody, somebody can or should come into contact with your business in a way that's gonna make them just realize, you know, you're the obvious choice.

Yeah, we oftentimes describe sort of the the decision process of the buyer's journey as different than sort of the sales pipeline.

That's right.

And really understanding like, how do they decide to solve this problem at all? Much less to go out and look for vendors that solve it. What are their informational needs that they have at that stage? And now how can you impact those rather than just, well, you know, they filled out a form on our website. So now they're a lead. Like if that's the only way you're thinking about the customer journey, You're not really thinking about the customer journey.

Well, and I'll tell you for B2B businesses as well, you know, the stage in the journey that's the most important is trust. And there are intentional ways to both build and erode trust. But if we don't think about it as a stage in the journey, you know, we often overlook the ways that we erode trust.

So true. So true. Well, so for our listeners that wanna sort of continue their engagement with you, John, how do they, how should they lean in?

Sure. So everything I've been doing for the last few decades is at ducttapemarketing.com. So that's ducttapemarketing.com. If you are somebody considering becoming a fractional CMO or you run a fractional CMO practice, there's information for you there. If you are a business founder that realizes you need that strategic component, you can find out how our process works in working with businesses as well.

Fantastic. Again, John, thank you so much. I know our listeners will have gotten a lot out of this. Thanks again.

Awesome.

You bet. Thank you for joining this episode of the B2B Growth Blueprint podcast. We hope you've gained insights to grow your business. If you enjoyed this discussion, please rate, comment, like on your favorite platform and share to others who will find it useful. Do you know a CEO, founder, or leader at an early-stage B2B services, tech, or SaaS company who would like to be a guest and share their story? Send us a note. Let's schedule a conversation.